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Curly headed piccaninny
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Subject: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,Alan (Vic Aust) Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:22 AM Many years ago 60 odd in fact my mother used to sing a lullubye to me. I've spent many years trying to find a copy of the song and more recently have searched for anyone who can even remember its existance. Tonight I found a brief mention of the lyrics in another forum thread but it disappeared; leaving only a few lyrics which differed from the lyrics etched into my memory. My plea now is that some one will know the correct lyrics and perhaps the name of the song; beyond all dreams would be that some one could tell me where I might get a copy of the song on record, tape, or CD. The lyrics in part as I remember them, area as follows:- Curly headed piccaninny Coming home so late Crying cos' his little heart did ache All the children round about With skin so white as snow None of them With him would ever play So mammy sat and rocked As she'd sat and rocked before And said in her old kind way Now honey don't you cry so hard And honey don't you cry no more Go out and play as much as you like But stay in your own back yard What do you suppose a white child would do With a black little coon like you. My fingers are crossed many thanks |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: freda underhill Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:15 AM check this mudcat thread, Alan Lyr Req: Go to Sleep My Baby / Wyoming Lullaby |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: kendall Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:01 AM My Grandmother had a 78 record of a song called Piccaninny's Paradise. Anyone ever heard of it? Thank God most of us have outgrown this sort of thing. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,steven Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:43 AM Are you intending to sing it? I won't be attending the concert |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM I also hope that this song is being researched for historical or folkloric purposes and not sung at a public concert, even with an explanatory introduction. With regard to the song itself, see this Mudcat thread: thread.cfm?threadid=27458#1170874 Lyr Req: Stay in your own backyard |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:05 AM Also, I thought that "piccaninny" was folk etymology for the Spanish word "pequeno" meaning "small". However, I'm not certain of that. In any event, "piccaninny" definitely has negative connotations now as it has become attached to images of stereotypically drawn Black children. Regardless of its source, in my not at all humble opinion, "piccaninny" is a word that needs to be retired if it isn't already withdrawn from usage. And as far as I'm concerned, anyone who still uses "coon" to refer to Black people is beyond the pale {if you'll excuse that expression}. And even though the term "coon songs" was acceptable way back and those songs might be fondly remembered by some folks, I hope that people don't sing them in public and I hope adults don't pass them down to their children, or if they pass them down they do it in an educational way, making sure that their children know that what is problematic about those songs. Rant over, though I didn't really begin. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Will Fly Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:13 AM Is it just me, or do I detect "troll" here...?
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: kendall Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:33 AM Much of our history sucks. These songs are good examples of how "Mr. Clean" America" is a joke. It reminds me of an old saying, (what doesn't), "No man ever need be a complete failure. He can always serve as a bad example." Anyone who would sing this tripe in public is a damn bad example! |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM See "My Curly-headed Baby," sung and made popular by Paul Robeson. It was based on the minstrel-type song "My Curly-Headed Babby, Plantation Song," by George H. Clutsam. Robeson's version was perhaps the most popular lullaby of all in the 1940s-1950s. Lyrics to both in thread 55715: Curly-headed Baby Guest Alan, you might want to compare the two songs, which have much in common. Hear Robeson on youtube- Curly headed baby |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,steven Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM "Go out and play as much as you like But stay in your own back yard What do you suppose a white child would do With a black little coon like you" Why would anyone want to dredge up this garbage, even in the name of research? |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: kendall Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:13 PM It depends on the reason. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM I don't think there is a human bean on the planet that doesn't have some nasty junk or other mixed in, deep, with all the happy memories. Imagine how a poor kid has to wrap their mind around the disconnect between granny's loving croon and these words, as a tiny mite hearing it for the first time? How does one disentangle the good part of that memory from the all junk that got stuck onto it? (Rhet Q) Oh I KNOW how-- but the doing of it, that is another matter. One way you do it is by taking an unflinching look back there into the past to see what-all is actually IN there. Can't clean it up, really, without being willing to start, there. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: SINSULL Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM This is a theme in Coon Songs. Mammy's Little Coal Black Rose is another sample. The Smithsonian has a collection of them. Lester Levy too. They are part of our musical heritage. "Dredge up this garbage"? Check out the Southern Poverty Law Center. Racism is alive and well and living in the US in a variety of forms. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,Steven Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM If they are being discussed for research purposes the lyrics should at least be shown as quotations otherwise something will be mistaken for what it isn't. Even far right websites don't use that kind of language these days |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM Why should a song which on the face of it appears to be attacking racism, recognising the existence of racism, and pretty, be seen as offensive? Sentimental, true, racist, surely not. What is pretty dodgy is to try to rewrite history as to pretend that our societies have not been degraded by the existence of racism. And continue to be in many ways. It seems to me that "Stay in your own backyard" in this song carries essentially the same kind of irony as Big Bill Broonzy singing "If you're black, get back, get back, get back." |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,Steven Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM Its all about context I agree. However as a white person, if my mum had sung that one to me when I was a child I'd be wanting to erase it from my memory. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM It's possible that a person could sing this song, and add commentary before and/or afterwards that attacks racism. However, the lyrics to this song don't attack racism. On the contrary, the lyrics promotes an acceptance of racial segregation: And said in her old kind way Now honey don't you cry so hard And honey don't you cry no more Go out and play as much as you like But stay in your own back yard What do you suppose a white child would do With a black little coon like you. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:17 PM That's called revisionism Steven. We must be able to discuss these things objectively, and like it or not they are part of our musical history. What did somebody say about those who don't learn from history? |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM And McGrath of Harlow, clearly people have different definitions of what is pretty, and what is offensive. Perhaps you are talking about its tune. I've never heard the tune for this song, so I can't comment on that. But even if the tune is "pretty", the words are so offensive that I wouldn't consider this song as anything but ugly. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:24 PM Kevin did not say it was pretty, he said it was 'pretty dodgy' |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: meself Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:31 PM Those last two lines are highly ambiguous. They could be given both a racist and an anti-racist interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:31 PM McGrath of Harlow - PM Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM Why should a song which on the face of it appears to be attacking racism, recognising the existence of racism, and pretty, be seen as offensive? Sentimental, true, racist, surely not. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Megan L Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM What he in fact said was "What is pretty dodgy is to try to rewrite history as to pretend that our societies have not been degraded by the existence of racism. And continue to be in many ways." If you are going to critisise someone you might at least do them the courtesay of reading their post properly before you do. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:36 PM Okay, I'll grant you that Kevin did write "pretty dodgy" in his next line to that post: "What is pretty dodgy is to try to rewrite history as to pretend that our societies have not been degraded by the existence of racism. And continue to be in many ways." -snip- {and I'll also admit that I don't know what "dodgy" means, pretty or otherwise}. But he did write "pretty". And that's not an adjective I'd use for this song, regardless of how nice its tune may be. Of course, different strokes for different folks. I'm stating my position-and that is that this song is highly offensive. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM For the record, Megan L. I posted my last comment on this thread prior to this one before reading your comment. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM Right there - the post got a bit jumbled there, and the pretty didn't belong in that first sentence. There does seem to me to be a pretty clear implication in the song that a situation where a mother feels she has to give that kind of advice to her child is a wicked one that ought to be changed. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM Perhaps it might have been better to check out the meaning of the phrase before you allowed it to offend you. Dodgy defined |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: meself Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:44 PM "Pretty" is being used here as in "pretty much" of something, or "that's a pretty big load", or "that's a pretty ugly dog" - indicating a substanial degree; nothing to do with the other meaning of pretty, i.e., "mildly beautiful". "Dodgy" is not as commonly used in North America. It means "worthy of suspicion; possibly dishonest; on the borderline of illegality or immorality". From the idea of someone dodging around to avoid the authorities. "this song is highly offensive" That was my initial reaction, and I think it would be the reaction of most people. However, upon reflection, I find it (disturbingly) ambiguous (as I mentioned). |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:45 PM John, thanks for posting the defintion for the word "dodgy". However, I thought I was clear about what offended me. But apparently I wasn't clear, so let me state it one last time. The word "dodgy" doesn't offend me. The lyrics to that song are highly offensive to me. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:47 PM They are offensive to every right thinking person, but we cannot erase history, we can only learn from it, and it needs to be there to be learned from. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:02 PM Ms A. The word "pretty" in this context, means "rather"---as in That man is rather handsome. (or That man is pretty handsome.) Or, maybe, That girl is pretty pretty. (A JOKE) |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:02 PM John, I agree with your 21 Dec 08 - 03:47 PM statement. I suppose there may be differences of opinion between some people {not necessarily you and me} as to what "there" means in the last part of your sentence {"it needs to be there to be learned from"}. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: John MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM there-extant-unerased-not revised |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM Thanks to all who commented about the word "pretty". I understood that Kevin's second use of "pretty" meant "rather" when I first read that sentence. As I mentioned, it was the word "dodgy" whose meaning I wasn't certain of. And I understand from Kevin's post of 21 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM that his first use of "pretty" was a typo. And for the record, fwiw, I agree with Kevin's comment that "What is pretty dodgy is to try to rewrite history as to pretend that our societies have not been degraded by the existence of racism." That said, indicating that this song is offensive isn't the same thing as attempting to rewrite history. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: meself Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:19 PM Apologies, Azizi - just looked back and saw the "pretty" you were talking about ... |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Jeri Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM Kevin, I agree. The lyrics seem to be sarcastic. It may just be how I read them if a mother were singing the song to her child IN THIS TIME AND PLACE. Maybe they were taken literally back in the day. Azizi, you seem pretty easy to offend sometimes. I'd get pissed off if someone were singing the song at ME and looking like they were waiting for a reaction, but that all boils down to what the singer MEANT by it. We can't know that, and so the song is open to whatever interpretation someone wants to give it. As to those 'stereotypically drawn Black children', there are people who collect that sort of African American memorabilia. One day, people will stop having reactions to this sort of thing and just look at it as something from the used-to-bes. Not there yet. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:28 PM Your apology accepted, meself. Now moving right along, anyone up to singing "Kumbayah"? ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Azizi Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:31 PM Also, for the record, I wrote my comment about moving right along before I read Jeri's comment. And I meant it. So I hope you're not offended, Jeri, if I don't respond to your comment. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: SINSULL Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:08 PM Guest Steve says: Its all about context I agree. However as a white person, if my mum had sung that one to me when I was a child I'd be wanting to erase it from my memory. Actually Nana Sullivan used to sing Mammy's Little Coal Black Rose to us, her grandchildren. She did it straight and from her heart - she dearly loved the song. As a child what I heard was a mother comforting her baby and reassuring him that he is as beautiful as a perfect rose. Nana also sang Only Me which usually draws a snicker now as a tear jerker. But I can tell you that I have never loved one child more than another or even one cat more than another. The song had a profound effect on me - and Nana loved it dearly and sang it straight from her heart. These are memories I cherish. Did I know, even then, that pickaninny was not an acceptable word in polite company - yes. Am I careful where I sing the song. Yes. But I will never be ashamed of knowing and loving it. It is a cherished part of my childhood. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Bert Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:28 PM This song belongs with other early attempts to point out the evils of racism. Unfortunately the language used, in itself, causes offence. But that is how the language was back then. I doesn't make it right nor does it make it inoffensive. It's just the way it was. Here's another |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: SINSULL Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:34 PM Bert, Reading the lyrics I suspect we are being told that the Daddy was white. M |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM Whenever one asks for or posts one of these old songs, that once were favorites in another time, the same objections are posted and re-posted ad nauseum. These songs are an integral part of our musical history and heritage, like it or not; the objectors obviously believe that the reader is incapable of making his own judgement. A lyric was requested; an answer to that query was the only response that was needed. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM It has been said by wiser people than me that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. It speaks well that such a song is deemed offensive by most, myself included. That I see as progress! Human values are slowly changing but they have much farther to go. Let us continue to be offended by crap from the past if it makes us better in the future! |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Lox Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:03 PM You move on, I'll comment ... "there are people who collect that sort of African American memorabilia." There are people who collect Nazi Memorabilia too. The only collector of "piccaninny" or "coon" memorabilia that I am aware of is a museum of Racist artefacts that exists to educate people on the difference between racist art and non racist art. That kind of stuff is offensive, but in the old days society didn't give a much of a shit about the feelings of those they were offensive to. The song is offensive because of its lyrics. You could dress the singer up in a clown suit and throw pies at him, it wouldn't take the sting out of the words. I'd bet a fortune that it wasn't composed by an African American. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Jeri Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM Lox, I'm pretty sure Oprah doesn't collect the Nazi stuff, but the African American memorabilia, as in toys and art, she does. It's offensive if you're offended. If you have to explain WHY and people still don't get it, maybe it's not so offensive. I'm willing to just accept that individuals are offended by the song. When people start telling me what to think and feel and try to make me feel guilty about not agreeing with them (without actually trying to explain WHY a think is racist), I get to be offended. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Lox Date: 21 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM "If you have to explain WHY and people still don't get it, maybe it's not so offensive." Or maybe the person you're explaining it to is an idiot. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: Leadfingers Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:11 PM Great !!! Lets ALL rewrite the History books ,and ALL the Old Songs and forget that there EVER was Injustice , and Racialism , and Bear Baiting , And Poverty and all the other Non PC things that are featured in Folk Song . |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,Steven Date: 22 Dec 08 - 01:13 AM I personally don't want to see these lyrics banned, much as the lyrics are offensive to about a billion people on this planet. They speak for themselves and educate us about the people who wrote them and also those who bring them up as "research". |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM I, too, had relatives from the "Old South," namely Texas and the "red-neck riviera" of the Florida panhandle. This song, or a variant of it, along with many others with a similar theme or substance, spoke volumes about the superior, not to mention paternalistic attitudes in play at the time. I was confronted with this as a small child in the 1940's and never understood or accepted it. However, it is not necessarily wise to assume a superior posture in condemning Americans today for the sins of their forebears, as some like to do. They were not perfect, but neither are those who point accusatory fingers now. Yes, history is often sanitized in many countries for a variety of reasons. But, once recognized and understood, the sins of the past belong to the past. If things like these songs serve a cautionary purpose, so be it. Every country has some skeletons they would prefer not to confront. But, as some say, Denial is not a river in Egypt. |
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Subject: RE: Curly headed piccaninny From: GUEST,lox Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:38 PM The song should not be erased, but it should be referred to honestly. |
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