homage to Rise Up Singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

Well, Ref, you must not really want the thread to die--otherwise you would have said nothing.

Fine with me. A few bits of unfinished business.   There's the poster who made all sorts of archly knowing, yet classically stupid remarks about the New Years party I went to. Then he says "all in good fun". Sorry, I've seen that movie before--it starred Mr. Cheney.

"Not as stupid as I look".   Well, that's a relief.


Janie--

I wanted to tell you that the duet (with Dani)?--that was you, wasn't it?-- you did of "There'll Be No Church Tonight" at the 2005 Getaway was one of the highlights of that year.   You proved you don't need RUS to lean on. And as I said recently, any other memory aid is absolutely fine--anything you'd like to do.




And for the defenders of RUS-oriented sings.   It's interesting no one has found an answer to my question of why you want to drive your mentors--like Bob, Don and Barry-- away. Which is exactly what you do with a RUS-centered sing.

And it's also obvious that--once more with feeling--RUS, far from "building community" in folk societies, actually causes serious schisms in those societies. We have testimony to that effect from Seattle, Boston, and DC--and I suspect it's true across the US.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:39 PM

It's the sound of me kicking a dead horse. RUS ain't heavy enough for a "thud."

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

Jeez, Ref, get a grip! You keep dropping your book!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM

Thud.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:21 AM

Obviously, not proofread very well-- redundance and clumsiness re: "preparation". But meaning is still clear.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:17 AM

"group voice".   Right you are, mg. And it sure does happen at the Getaway--where seldom is heard a discouraging word---in fact never--since RUS does not appear. Especially at the after-hours sings or other events which haven't been organized in advance. Though even in the Saturday or Sunday concerts RUS would not be used.

And everybody appreciates anybody who leads a song without RUS--and is completely fine with the idea that verses might be left out, a different tune might be used, etc. What the leader of any given song who sings it from memory does--both tune and text--is by definition right.

So please, mg, try to make it to a Getaway. You won't be disappointed. Your attitude is exactly what we need.



Yet again, nobody has objection to groups of people using RUS as a hymnbook--if that's the musical experience they are content with.

But many, probably the vast majority, are not content with that.

RUS is far more pernicious than any other book or memory aid--for two reasons:   its pretense to folkie Holy Writ (ironically, not intended by the compilers) and the strong likelihood that if there is one in a group, there will be more than one copy. Nobody objects to memory aids--we are all aware memory is fallible.   But use of that book is the worst approach--since it shows absolutely no preparation for a song. Anything else is better--a card with cue words, a sheet, or even a little book of your own songs---since all of those show at least some preparation--and hence some preparation--(though obviously, the more memorized, the better).

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:36 PM

I don't think anyone minds that there are RUS groups that were set up that way and enjoy themselves undoubtedly. Why would we? More power to them. It is the problem of it taking over long-established groups and it does drive out many of the best as defined by me which others would define differently no doubt...singers..to where? Where do they go? Tell me and I would like to join them. But it is no longer public information where they go. They either are not assembling as they used to in the not so distant past, or they are doing it by invitation only. That does not help anyone, especially newcomers. So I urge people who have active folk song societies to set up two groups..they can drift back and forth and see which they prefer, go to both, whatever.

If the sound of the music itself is more important, they will perhaps go to the sansbook session (and by that I mean, and of course we keep having to say everything over and over here because it gets misconstrued when spelled out very plainly to me at least..they can use the book for themselves, or notes or whatever..just not tell people what page it is on and pass them out and wait for others to find the page..)

If the sound of the music is secondary to the more social aspects, of the guarantee of getting a turn every time, of enjoying the process of group support well, then they can go to that one. They can also go to the other one and see how it compares. Vise versa. They don't have to take an oath to one way or another... If they have time they can go to both.

I think camps especially should be accomodating to both groups and it is easy as pie. What I do not especially like at camps is sneaking away. I would rather, and have started to do this, just say I am going over here with this in mind. Join me if you care to.

I will say there are things I just do not get. One is the taking turns over and over and over until the evening is done. I guess others like it...But in a big group...my musical ADD can't handle it...

Another thing that has not been brought up is that something develops over decades of people singing together. There is a group voice that happens. It is often quite magnificent. We know who the leaders are and who the chorus people are. I personally am a chorus person, except in the smaller groups. We also can tell when a constellation of particularly great singers appears on a given night and I think unconsciously sacrifice our "turns" so that something musically outstanding will happen. This can not happen with the very rigid turn system. It just can't. mg

mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM

"That ain't gonna happen reading out of books & you know it & so does everyone one else reading this thread, it just ain't gonna happen."

Sorry Barry, while I agree that a "book" is not going to give the same feeling as you have described, I do not feel that is enough of a reason to demean the good the book can do - and I think you know and so do many other people who have posted to this thread.   

I respect your desire to make good music, but it ain't the only path my friend!

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

Just the oppsite Ron! I have been told how to sing & what's wrong about what I sing in these RUS singing goups. That I sang to loudly or I wasn't singing in the key it was written in so therefore the guitar player doesn't know how to play along with my song in the wrong key or tthat's not the chorus & my reply is that's it's my song, I'm singing it & I'll sing it as I see fit. That doesn't go over well in a group where they all believe the critic is correct. If that's where they are & want to be, sorry, it's not a place where I intend to stay, good-bye, I'mm out of there & yes I do think that a singing session like that is beneath me, it's beneath anyone who has any self respect. If they weren't so damn stiff & inflexable in their outlook & what others do differently I wouldn't mind so much but these groups from what I've seen have the gaul to impose their will on all who "don't believe" or who "don't follow" that they drive the rest of us right into the Lion's jaws. I see it as a matter of seeing some folk communities having to go underground just to avoid them.

And as a "gift that is of a higher calling that others"

What ever I have I share with anyone & everyone. At any time anywhere (musically) you will at all hours of the day & night trying to get others to sing, backing others to be musical & encouraging anyone to make use of their voice or instrument. It's not at all about weither I can sing or not, it's about passing the music & songs along & on. I see, hear & feel nothing as moving as hearing a group of folks sing from their hearts, stomacks, heads tossed back without a care in the world at least for the moment their mouths are open, there's nothing more uplifting than a group melded into harmonies bursting with song & you look at the roof & it's lifting right off the joists, the house is bulging & the windows are about to burst. That's it for me Ron. That ain't gonna happen reading out of books & you know it & so does everyone one else reading this thread, it just ain't gonna happen. It's like Billy Buntline saying I wouldn't want to be one of the poor souls on land tonight, with this here storm ablowing in. I don't want to be in no book singing basement when some one's singing up a storm outside, I'd rather be in the eye of the storm, thank you

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

"I'll lead my life according to me not some book no matter what book."

I'm with you 100% - and everyone has the right to do the same.



"It is not a matter of "sophisticated singing groups" Ron, you keep using that phrase as if we were the elite. "

I have to correct you on that. I don't think I used those words previously, and I only used it because that was what you said in your previous group.

Even still, there is nothing wrong with "elite". I would not expect Derek Jeter to play in a beer league softball game each week. There are some people who need to work to their level with their peer group.

What bother me is that your posts are coming across as if those who do not subscribe to the same type of sessions are involved in a lesser pursuit.   I hope that is not what you mean, because those folks are probably having a good time and should not be made to feel inferior.



" When it's about the book the song has lost all it's value "

But in the grand scheme of things, how often is it really "about" the book?   Sure, you have given us numerous examples of events you came across, but with all due respect, I really feel that your stand on the position is adament and I am not sure you can be subjective. I don't say that to be demeaning - it is just a fact of life in any pursuit where someone has a gift that is of a higher calling that others.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:42 PM

Yes Ron, I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's not the book, it's the people. Like the bible, it's a great book but I left the church along time ago when I was just a bit more than a child because people who believed in the "BooK" were telling me how I was to live my life accordingly to the "Book". Well book be damned, I'll lead my life according to me not some book no matter what book. Like the religious bible thumpers the book singing crowd sings according to their bible & they can do as they please but don't preach & dictate to me I don't want to hear it, they even have been known to barge in where they are not welcomed & preach their gopherspill until their following has swamped the lifeboats to cause them to capsize. I'm on a strict diet of singing for fun & love of singing not for guidence. There's a reason why it's refered to as the "Bible", I have been scolded too by the RUS crowd, I too have sinned & been outcasted but I have not repented I have just gone elsewhere.
It is not a matter of "sophisticated singing groups" Ron, you keep using that phrase as if we were the elite. Like Janie mentioned above I & others here welcome one & all if it's singing they're looking for I just don't foster those that belong to a preference for reading groups, for that they should go to a book store, a library or a story time class not a song bash. I do not care where, how or what you sing or who you sing with but be mindful & aware of you surroundings & let the group dictate it's wants, disires
& needs & leave well enough alone. It's always the song & not the singer that should lead the way & if that is always kept in focus then it won't be about the book or anything else. Nothing else supersedes the song if not it's not worth singing about. No voice is worth hearing if the song's not the primary focus of the attention, no song sung well isn't worth a piece of your heart, the more heart you have in a song the more the song well swell in the hearts of those that are listening. When it's about the book the song has lost all it's value, it's then about the book & about the singer & no longer has anything to do with the song, the song is then just the medium or venue for the voice, for that matter you might as well read for it's no longer emotional, it's sterial, it's been dosed with an anticeptic, it's been scrubbed clean, it's had the life drained from it, it's no longer the song.


Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:06 PM

IT IS NOT A "WRETCHED" BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barry, I can understand and sympathize with a need for individuals like yourself to have more "sophisticated singing groups", but that book has been a HUGE introductions to song for many people and it serves a purpose.   We all get the idea that you have no use for it, nor should you.

The more people rant about it, the more I am getting the feeling that it isn't a book that is "ruining" a sing, it is individuals who feel that they have the only answer to guide the group - and no one else is listening.   Singing in a group requires listening to others, and listening and working with others make up the dynamic of any group.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

Just to clear, I am mostly speaking of courtesy. If it is a group sing, by all means the group should jump in and sing the version presented. That is a fine use for RUS as the reference. But if it is a singaround/song circle, have the courtesy to let the person doing the song do the song. Join in on the choruses, but don't step on the singer because you feel it is "your" song or you feel that it should be sung a certain way.

And one final time, because I do not want to seem as though I am criticizing a person for singing from a crib sheet or book. If that is what you need to sing a song, you have practiced it, as Joe does, and you just need help on the lyrics, go for it. I do it when needed, as long as I feel I can do the song the justice it deserves, although usually not in a concert setting.

Last word for me, I don't like "RUS is the bible" folks, nor do I like folks that poo poo someone at a singaround who is brave enough to overcome their fear and step to the microphone even if they use a crib sheet. Just pay attention to the protocols of where you are at.

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM

Hi Joe
It sounds as if you're trying to live in two different worlds & that yoou're having a tough time straddling both of them. You seem to be enjoying a status in the book singing world but it sounds as if you're not getting enough out of it and at the same time you're not quite up to snuff with your peers in the non book world. At least that's my atke on it. I feel that some of the trouble is that the world that you are struggling to fit into might be a more sofistcated singing group, that they're more into traditional types of song sings than your RUS groups. You are trying to find a repatoire that bridges both communities when IMO you should be working on a rep that doesn't bridge at all because one won't work for both. An example; your campfire songs are probably fine with the RUS people where as they may not fly with the others, hey there campfire songs, some of us haven't seen a camp fire since we were 12. STill I don't think you need feel any misgivings, you're probably much respected ass a singer in any group you go to, I'd say you would fit in anywhere & that in it's self may be where you are having a problem. That you can fit in any where but you're not comfortable in that role & you might want to play more of a role in the group that you feel challanged by & whom makes you dig a little deeper. When I go to an Irish session I sing songs that are of Irish in nature. When I go to a shanty sing I do shanties, on the Friday night sing I'll do anything but I mainly stick to songs that are trad or in aa trad mode & or those I seldom sing ballads I'll do mostly chorus. I do get lonesome for ballad singing but there's not many sings or venues that thrive on ballads, I leave that for after hours at festivalsat 3:00 am when it's a mellow ballad mood of a sing, so I suffer till a festival comes round. Some stuff you have you may not find the right outlet for so it sits until you do. So I'd say that your problem lays more in knowing the temperment, moods & styles of those worlds that you want to be a part of & when & what's the best fit for those seperate worlds rather than "it's got something to do with me". Joe I've been hearing you sing for years, there's nothing holding you back from where you'd like to be except maybe a little trouble seperating & keeping those worlds apart instead of having them collide with each other. I don't say you need to choose between them either. Hell, you cn sing in many different worlds, the only limitations would be time & effort. You sing in church groups, do you have a problem keeping them seperate from your folk sings? You say that at Camp New Harmony you spent most of your time at unaccompanied singing room, that they dislike the use of Rise Up Singing? OK, you're building a rep where you have your notes instead of a book, this sounds a bit like the Getaway, get an index card & write the firts word or two to a line or a verse, you know the song well enough & an index card is maybe cheating but it's someting that no one is gonna site you for using, "NO ONE". SO some of it is just a sense of what the group around you has a preference for, "When in Rome".
As far as Faith, she may not approve of RUS in song circles but that's what took over her circle a few decades ago. It was at her house I attended the best sings ever, continiously until that wretched book took it over & killed it. The last maybe 3 most recent times over the past 10 yrs I've been back out to San Francisco I've been to those sings & it's like being in a mourge & trying to raise the daed. Bless Faith she's a God sent & a wonder & a blessing for any folk society but her sings are the ones I most lament of all, even more than my own home town of Boston when I think of sings that have gone "bust by books".
Anyway Joe. You shouldn't have any doubts about yourself, you're fine where you are, you just need to get comfortable about where you want to go. See you in September & I for one will be happy to sing along side of you no matter where or what you sing from cuz you always sing from your heart & soul & from there, there's no better place you can sing from!

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

OK, OK, OK - this thread is getting way too personal. Mudcat posts and personal messages are supposed to be used for civil communication, not for waging war. Chill out, all of you!!!


I got back from San Francisco's Camp New Harmony Sunday. While at camp, I spend most of my time in the room that has mostly unaccompanied singing. I've learned that most of these singers dislike the use of Rise Up Singing, so I have been building a folder with my "repertoire," such as it is - songs that I can sing pretty well in front of a group of people. I try to pick songs that are somewhat unusual, that don't get sung very often. They must be songs that fit my voice and singing style and ability; and I prefer songs that have a chorus or something people can sing along with. I print one song per sheet, (or related songs front and back), usually in 16-point typeface. At the beginning of the session, I pull out the sheets for three or four songs I might like to sing, and make my final choice when it's my turn. The type is big enough that I can read in dim light and don't have to push my face into the book, and I'm gradually getting to know the songs better so I don't have to depend on the sheets so much.

At the beginning, I gave in to the pressure of scorn and tried my best to sing without a book or "cheat sheet," but I found myself hiding when my turn came around because I just can't remember the words. So, I decided to use "cheat sheets" and books other then Rise Up Singing, and to ignore those who question that. I found it evened the playing field a bit for me. I also discovered that with a songbook in my hand, there are some areas where I am pretty darn good - especially southern white gospel and black spirituals. Oh, and "girl group" songs.

There are a few novelty songs I do that people really like, so I milk them for all they're worth - I got a great response to "Hang on the Bell Nellie," even though I used a blown-up photocopy of a page from Rise Up Singing as my cheat sheet. I don't want to be known only for novelty songs, so I keep a number of more serious songs in my "stable." People always seem to like it when I sing "Windmills" (Alan Bell) and "Julian of Norwich" (Sydney Carter) and "I Had an Old Coat" (Paul Kaplan); and they enjoy "Long, Long Ago" (Bayley), which I learned in fifth grade.

Outside a song circle environment, I sing a lot of the more common songs from Rise Up Singing like "River" and "My Grandfather's Clock" and dozens more. Legend has it that I know all the songs in the "Blue Book" (not true - I don't even want to learn some), and it's true that I rarely have to look at the book. Generally, outside of folk music clubs, I'm thought of as a terrific singer - and when I'm in a song circle that uses Rise Up Singing, I'm looked on as a leader. People are amazed at the hundreds of songs I know. I'm looked on as one of the better singers in most of the church choirs I've belonged to in the last 50 years (I started at age ten).

People in folk clubs have often heard the Rise Up Singing songs over and over again and don't really enjoy them all that much. Still, I can slip in a good one every once in a while. I've been a member of SFFMC (San Francisco Folk Music Club) and FSGW (Folklore Society of Greater Washington, DC) most of the time since 1999, and I think I am gradually building myself a reputation as a halfway-decent singer (maybe just above the median point). But it's been a long, low, uphill climb - and as a singer, I still feel quite uncomfortable in both organizations. Over the last ten years, I've gone through a lot of embarrassment and feelings of exclusion to get myself accepted. Even last week at Camp New Harmony, there were two evenings when everybody left just before it got to be my time to sing. One night, three people took pity on me and stayed so I could sing my song. It's hard to deal with being pitied as a singer. That may be even worse than being scorned.

So, I dunno. I don't think there are any easy anwers. I do think that the better singers need to show patience and compassion to the less-experienced singers - and not in a condescending way. I like going to FSGW and SFFMC because the challenge makes me grow - but it's hard and discouraging at times. I sometimes find myself bored in the Rise Up Singing sessions - but I can often be looked on there as the best singer in the room, and I find that there can be wonderful community singing in such sessions. If the Rise Up Singing sessions get tedious, then I feel obligated to do something to liven them up. Some of you know that I do have the ability to get goofy when I feel at home.

I don't know that I have any suggestions or solutions or anything, but I wanted to say what I feel. When people have the courage to sing in front of other people, they make themselves very vulnerable - especially in the early years of their singing experience. I think that vulnerability needs to be respected.

-Joe-

P.S. Faith Petric, the 93/94-yr-old grand dame of the San Francisco Folk Music Club, does not approve of using Rise Up Singing in song circles. But in a Malvina Reynolds workshop last week, somebody asked her to sing a song and she couldn't remember it completely. She turned to me and asked to borrow my copy of RUS. This happened twice during that workshop. Made me feel a whole lot better.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:13 AM

Gee, Barry, I posted you, you answered me, and I responded, and so it went. If you'd said, "don't reply" when you PM'd me I sure wouldn't have-- As to the number of posts I've made to the thread, I didn't realize we had a limit, but in terms of sheer bulk, you've got me beat by a mile--

As to what is a strong opinion, and what is simply mean-spirited--we each judge on our own--if I've misinterpreted you, and you were simply being "spirited" in your assertions, it is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:41 PM

OK M. Ted
Since I last posted Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM you've posted 5 times, around 30 times in all to this post, far more than I have. So stop PM'ing me to stop posting. As i replied to you first 2 post, I'll stop when I damn well fell like I've said what I've wanted to say & replied to what I feel like replying too. Are you trying to be such a pain in the ass that the thread's gonna shut down. STOP PM'ing ME!!
I was getting a bit tired of the thread but,,,,,,,

The horse ain't dead till it can't get up after the first 3 or 4 beatings. This horse can go the distance.

I haven't seen any harshness here only strong opinions.
And I've seen more passion from the dead than I have at most of the books sings I've ever been to, they may be having fun but you wouldn't know it by any humanly outward signs. Yes, it is a problem. Usually in big cities like San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, etc there's only one folk society, one established sing unless there's a breakaway group. It makes no sense to compete but there's is sense to a skisim, a divide, it's uncomfortable & unwarranted but probably needed. When a folk singing society, like most folk song societies, promote group singing & it turns into a book sing that society has pretty much given a death knell to the rest of the folk community of that city who'd perfere the "other" style or format. Which IMHO includes the better & stronger singers who don't need or want book singing. I have lived this in several cities where there was once a vibrant singing community. So it does matter & to form 2 groups & have each one unto themselves is a bit distasteful but maybe necessary. It won't happen in Boston though. The sitting society decieded that it would hold a traditional sing where books were not to be encouraged to make up for it's sings it had decades ago that grew stagnent. The moving force behind that was a member of the Boston Traditional Singer's Club which did hold non book sings but was mostly an Irish Trad group that was seeking an alt to tune sessions. The society's trad sing is held once a month, it now can't find any host's or very many that'll attend, I don't know how long it's been out of fashion. My believe is that once a book group has taken over an older group if that group sing is or was the dominate singing group in the community then the community loses it's older, better & stronger singing members & that they become much harder to win back into ANY singing group. We will see how a newly formed sing willdevelop. I will attend for the second night but if it's a book study group like the 1st I won't bother again & I doubt it'll have any shot of sucess.

M.Ted don't PM me anymore,,,,,please

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:31 PM

I think my last post was misconstrued, and when M. Ted quoted part of those remarks subsequently, that dissociated them from their context.

Bill, in an attempt to not be so dadgum as wordy as usual, I used a figure of speech to characterize the generally vehement voice and conviction with which you and the others are expressing yourselves.   The point I was trying to make, and apparently did not, was that my experience of all of you, in spite of how you may be unintentionally coming across on the thread, are very inclusive and supportive of newbies.   I named the 4 (or was it 5?) of you because I have the very gratifying experience of having been in song circles with all of you. Collectively, your posts do not convey what gems you really are in terms of fostering others who want to sing and learn.

I don't think anyone who is posting here who objects to people singing from printed lyrics in a song circle are bashing those of us who do need printed lyrics. I also think you may not realize how intimidating and off-putting some of you are coming across to those of us who are less experienced or accomplished. My first readings of the posts from many of you who I know, have deep affection for and respect and who have mentored me at the Getaways, resulted in me first feeling embarrassed and ashamed and foolish about my participation in those song circles. (Oh! the fragile ego:>) It took careful rereading in light of my first-hand experiences of all of you to see that you are talking about a certain type of song circle that you do not enjoy and have no obligation to participate in, and that you are not making a blanket rejection of an individual using RUS or any other printed lyrics in a song circle. Rather, you are all experienced participants in song circles, and many of you are professional and/or accomplished musicians, who naturally prefer song circles where there is a critical mass of other musicians to hold your interest.

I have had the occasional experience of being at a song circle where most of the singing was limited to the blue book, so everyone could sing. I didn't have a lot of fun. ( I don't have much fun with the congregational singing in church. It can be passionless, and besides, my quirky voice doesn't fit well with the keys groups usually end up singing, be it church or a group sing.) But these were group sings vs. sing arounds, and it was clear to me that the majority of participants enjoyed themselves thoroughly.    I prefer the sing arounds with people joining in as appropriate, but that also offer me and others a chance to try our chops solo, and learn from one another.   I have a dear friend who loves to sing and has a lovely voice, but can feel put on the spot if she has to sing alone, and much prefers group sings.

It occurs to me that there is a similarity between song circles and 12 step recovery groups. A relatively small town might have several different AA or NA meetings, with some overlap in participants, but many others sticking to a particular group. That offers something for everyone.

I agree with Ron that there is much less actual disagreement here than might appear from all the heat.

Two more things, then I will end this too long post and climb off the soapbox.

1.   There are a number of references in this thread from long-time catters that this subject has been talked to death. That may be for some people. However, this is the first of these threads that I have carefully followed or commented in, and I joined somewhere around 2002. Plenty of other people have come on board since then. We are not all old timers, but we are all a part of Mudcat. I've learned a lot from reading and reflecting on these posts and the differing viewpoints that I think may be very helpful to me if I should ever find the time to try to start another song circle. Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts, experiences and opinions.

2. Ron, I want to again to say thanks for your objective and dispassionate observations and remarks and generally non-judgemental reflections. You have been particularly helpful with your steadfast, non-judgemental comments, generally unclouded by emotion or attachment to position.

While I can understand how the threads regarding the Getaway could mislead someone who has never been to perceive it as a clique, I want to say that nothing could be further from the truth. I have been to several of them, and they are the most inclusive and empowering participatory events I have ever attended. Come with a love of any aspect of "folk music', and you are embraced and valued, regardless of skill or knowledge. I hope to meet you at one of them one day.

Now see, don't all ya'll wish you had got my first, shorter post:^?

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

Thud.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:21 PM

Hmm!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

Like I said, it was about the dead horse.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:02 PM

Those instructions were meant to be helpful to newbies and to those who said they have difficulty memorizing songs, perhaps because they don't know how to go about it, as some people do not.

The idea that some people don't know how to go about memorizing something is not just a wild idea of mine, it comes from the experience I have had with students. I have found that the procedure I use (particularly trying to go through the song in my head while composing myself for sleep) works well for me, and I thought it might very well work for others.

It was an attempt to be helpful!

And I'm not placing anybody on any ladders. That came out of your own head, M.Ted. To clarify, I think RUS might be a good start. But I, personally, don't see why anyone would not want to try to progress beyond that. But if that's the case, then so be it. Group singing can be fun.

If that's "mean spirited," M.Ted, then so be it!

By the way, in case you've forgotten, the first PM you sent me said this:

No one has any doubt about where you stand on all this RUS business. It's time to come in out of the sun. The animal control people will clear it away by tomorrow, if you just leave it alone.

That sounds to me like you're telling my I should stop posting to this thread.

So, as I said, M.Ted, maybe you need to take a few deep breaths.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Don makes it sound like I sent him some sort of poison pen letter, and left it to your imagination as to what I said--I said this:

"I see the thread as a mean spirited attack by people with a lot of talent and experience with
folk music on people who are at a much lower level than they are."

I also made a comment about beating a dead horse. I think I mention it above, as.

I've read Don's posts again--they are certainly affable, but no one who uses "Rise Up Singing" has any doubts about where he places them on the folk music ladder. And, the fact that he posted instructions on how to learn a song is a clear message that he thinks we are all in need of the most basic instruction.

Ron Olesko's got mg's position pegged pretty well, so I'll defer to him--

I may be wrong, so I advise others to read the posts carefully.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

"People are going to be deprived of public events that they would have enjoyed. "

The sky is not falling.

You should say that "SOME people are going to be deprived of public events", because the rest of your statement shows that there is still a public event going on.   Just not one that YOU are interested in.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I fail to see what is mean. People are going to be deprived of public events that they would have enjoyed. It is probably too late to prevent it from happening, but perhaps there is a folk club somewhere that could be proactive about some of this. Yes, people can meet in private, but new people are not going to know how to connect. Others who are more in the background might not get invited to private events. Rather than trying to exclude people, I am trying to preserve places that meet with public notice for them to be included, along with places similarlly set up for those with different preferences and goals. But I think the gap in preferences is so big it probably can't be bridged in the same groups. Ergo, separate groups. People can choose which they prefer.

Also, please do not use my name. Use my initials. Thank you. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:40 PM

Since M.Ted chooses to single me out by name as one of those he is accusing of being "mean spirited" and of having "a need to bash others," I hereby register my protest! He is obviously not reading my posts very carefully.

I'n not bashing anyone, nor do I have any need to. I expressed my preferences in the kind of song sessions I like to go to, and several times have said that those who prefer their group singing reading out of a book are certainly free to do so. And for this, he feels it necessary to bash me.

Not only that, he has seen fit to PM me and ask my to stop posting to this thread.

Maybe you need to take a few deep breaths, M.Ted.

Obviously this thread has passed its "sell by" date and has gone a bit rotten. It's degenerated into less of an exchange of ideas and more of simply shooting spit balls.

I've expressed my preferences and said everything I care to say on this subject, so unless my name comes up again, I'm out of here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

I pasted a quote, and didn't want to be accused of distortion by editing, but I wasn't quite fair, either, Mick had a valid point, sorry Mick. BillD is never mean, sorry Bill.

For the others, it seems like this quote from Mary Garvey tells it all:

" I have revealed, yet again, our little secret though..that we just quit attending those events. The goose the laid the golden egg has been killed."

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

Good luck with that Mary. You have your opinions and you are welcome to them.

To everything there is a season

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

WHat I think we have said repeatedly is that we do not take pleasure in the steak or the corn dog or whichever it is we do not like. We do not like the music that comes from these sessions, people who are OK with the sessions do not like the lack of fairness or chance to take a turn or chance to know what the words are. There is not pleasure in either. One way or the other someone is displeased. The answer and the only answer I see is to set up separate groups to accomodate both. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

oops... I meant to say "sorry Bill", not Don

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:08 PM

Sorry Don, taste is subjective

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:48 PM

de gustibus non disputandum est

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

"There is absolutely no way you would have the same passion and fire as when all the parties are jumping in spontaneously on songs they know well."

The key word is "SAME" passion. You can get pleasure of a nice juicy Kobe steak in a comfortable restaurant, and you can get pleasure out of a corndog on the beach. Nothing is the same, neither is wrong.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

I don't think I have bashed anyone. I have revealed, yet again, our little secret though..that we just quit attending those events. And if they are open the public, the public has lost a very wonderful thing, perhaps to be replaced by something socially good, but probably not musically all that...The goose the laid the golden egg has been killed. The social support remains, the music wandered off (more often than not). I have suggested forming separate groups, separate rooms in camps, etc. to accomodate both preference styles. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Fine, talented people, I have always thought--but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about.
MTed

Since you included me, I must ask where it was that I bashed anybody? I thought I gave a fairly concise view of my feelings on the subject and I don't recall any specific attacks on anyone.

I think the distinction for me is not whether you sing from notes, book, etc. As long as you know the song, have rehearsed it, and just need a memory jog, and as long as you can sing it in a way that doesn't make the song sound stiff (Bill's "close your eyes" rule) then that is fine. As I said previously, just don't impose your RUS version on me when I am singing the song. As a reference it is an OK source. As the last word on a song...... not even close.

Barry and Dick's point about the passion is well taken. I have been in those shanty sings that Barry refers to. There is absolutely no way you would have the same passion and fire as when all the parties are jumping in spontaneously on songs they know well.

But one more thing. This is really about paying attention to the protocols of the song circle you are joining in. If a large group of folks have allowed, and enjoy, use of RUS, they have a song circle where the rule is you use that version so everyone can join in..... then you are bound to that and should not bitch about it. That is just common courtesy. And if you see someone that clearly wants to sing, and just needs encouragement and the use of the book, give them encouragement and let them use the book. That, too, is just common courtesy. And if I choose to sing "The Rare Old Times" or "Hard Times", or another song in my own way, please extend the same courtesy and listen, don't try to correct me by singing it a different way.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

"...but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about." ???

am I 'bashing' anyone? I explain a preference and my reasoning.

(and Janie... what did I say that even 'hints' that I sound like I'd "...just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics ..."? (remember...I often close my eyes!)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Dick - tell me that it doesn't requier passion to get 13 people together in a room to sing "On Top of Old Smokey".   I dare you NOT to find passion, whether their noses are in books or up some body cavity - it takes passion.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

Janie said, "Reading many of the posts made by Barry, Mick, Bill and Ron, it sounds as if they they would just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics from RUS or anything else."

Don't forget Don Firth and Mary Garvey, and you've got it right. Fine, talented people, I have always thought--but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about.

I wouldn't mind so much if you were all just taking shots at me (I'd kind of get a kick out of it, actually) but the folks who sing from the book are the ones who are new, who just want to participate. Before the advent of the book, they pretty much sat and looked on while you all had the fun.

Sounds like you liked it better before.

(except for Barry and the shanties, but not everyone likes shanties)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

"I don't think there is a cure for passion! "
Well, for one instance, go to a session where thirteen people, each with his/her nose stuck in a copy or RUS, are dutifully singing "On Top of Old Smoky" in dubious unison. I dare you to find any passion there.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:16 AM

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:05 AM

I agree, Ron. Reading many of the posts made by Barry, Mick, Bill and Ron, it sounds as if they they would just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics from RUS or anything else. But I have had the privilege, at Getaways, to participate in song circles with all of them, and they have all, especially Barry, been very encouraging and empowering. In fact, it was at my first Getaway, 5 or 7 years ago, that I rediscovered my voice after nearly 20 years of doing no music, and overcame much of my anxiety about singing in front of others. These lovely people have witnessed me muff songs badly when I didn't have the lyrics in front of me, and complimented and encouraged me after I have have shared a song with the lyrics in front of me - sometimes from RUS. (The only time I ever sang at the Saturday night concert without lyrics in front of me, I forgot the last verse - and it was a song I wrote!)

I am speaking as some one without much experience participating in song circles except for the Getaway. Inspired by the Getaway, I facilitated a song circle for 6 or 7 months a few years ago, and was surprised at how much work it was, and disappointed in the results. In many ways, the area where I live (Durham/Chapel Hill area of NC) is a musical Mecca, but there is not a tradition of informal sing arounds or song circles. I was hoping to start something akin to the song circles at the Getaway, but since there was not a tradition here, I was very reluctant (as well as very inexperienced at such endeavors) to exert any leadership beyond sending out the monthly e-mail reminder and being there to unlock the door. Concerned about having enough participants I was afraid to voice expectations that might result in people not coming. Over time, it wasn't very successful, largely because it wasn't clearly enough defined.   Some people viewed it as a group sing rather than a sing around. Some people mostly were interested in show tunes.   When it was lovely, it was very lovely, but it fizzled because the lack of clear direction and focus, as well as divergent but unspoken expectations made it an unsatisfying experience for all of us. A song circle can not be all things to all people and be successful.

I don't know if I will try again at some point in the future to start another song circle. But if I do, I'll follow mg's advice from the git-go, and make explicit what my own expectations and desires are.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: CamiSu
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:55 PM

So this has been sitting open on my desk for several days, (I REALLY have a hard time with too much to do) but I do appreciate RUS for starting a process in my family--particularly my youngest, who has graduated from finding words in RUS to the digitrad. (at 13 or 14?) He messaged home from a trip with friends to ask for a line from Barrett's Privateers. I did not get the message in time so when he and another person on the trip sang it, he made up a line, and no one knew any better, and they all loved it (and some even joined in on the chorus) No, it's not the be all, but it gets things started sometimes.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM

I don't think there is a cure for passion! Deep down, I think everyone is very passionate about this music and people often forget that their opinion is not shared by everyone - nor is their portion of the world a reflection on what is happening elsewhere.   IF you sort through the posts, I think most people actually agree - and the problems that are painted are probably very rare occurances in actual practice, or at least not as widespread or shared by others.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

And apparently will continue repeating until certain people take their medicine.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

I really appreciate what Mick said about the FSGW. It tell me we are still doing ok. The Getaway gets a larger % of serious singers who DO 'know' a lot of songs, and the results are great. It is not the case that books are excluded...they are just not as common.

Now...I have watched Mick, himself, several times with not only the words, but a music stand! He does this *when* he needs to be sure...not for everything... and my rule applies - if I close my eyes, I can't tell!

(To be totally honest, 'some' songs need an intro saying "please note- I am doing a slightly different version than you all think you know." I sing "Bright Morning Stars" in simpler version than the one with the warbling up & down melody that has been common the last xx number of years. [I learned it from a National Geographic LP recorded (I think)in Mountainview, Ark.] I just prefer the power of the 'simple' melody...but I have to be firm... *grin*)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:15 PM

This thread is like a Jersey diner breakfast - it keeps repeating.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:22 PM

Not dead until my fingers quit typing. I still have lots more to say on the subject..mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Have at it, M.Ted. If you can get the corpse to lay still.

Did you hear the one about the riot at the funeral of Roland Lawrence LaPrise, the man who invented the Hokey-Pokey? When they put him into the casket, they tried to "put his left foot in," and that's when the trouble started. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:56 PM

Thud.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

Barry, Mary, and Don: The horse is still dead. If you want, I'll start an OBIT thread.