BS: Middle Age Dating

Subject: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:42 AM

O.K. guys. I finally decided I need a woman. I gave up trying to find one for many years, figuring I was perfectly happy single.

All of a sudden, bam! I actual care now! big dummy: everyone's married. has kids. is divorced. etc. etc. Tried some of these dating sites: nothing but hook-ups, casual encounters, bi-sexuals, poly-amorous etc. etc. etc.

Basically, the same problem I had in my teens and twenties, no real people, no real commitment, no real love, no real substance.

Every girl I met is warm body material and hormones only, and mostly short term relationship oriented. (why are there so many people this way? Why is their love so cheap and worthless? that is why I never dated much while in my prime, frankly it disgusted me to date, and believe me I was far from not being interested in sex, I just didn't want to ruin it for myself and never have somebody I could trust or relate too. its the same probelm today only worse!

For example: I Met a lady last week. Talked on the phone to her. Now our relationship is over. She wanted me to go to bed with her after only knowing her for a week. She wanted me to move into her upstairs apartment and move to Minneapolis (told my co-workers all this and they were high fiving it!) I turned her offer down though, and she broke my heart in two. Do I look that stupid? BTW: She had a slut score of 62% on OK cupid, higher than that of most porn stars. Swore to me she would be my one and only.

Basically, I'm having a mid-life crisis, that is not being helped by the sad state of today's love starved society. Could be hormones too, that has put me back in the game- I kid you not! At the age most men are cheating on their wives, I'm finally thinking about getting in the game of love? Go figure? what is wrong with me? I haven't got a clue.

All of a sudden women are looking extra good to me now, and they never even did when I was in my twenties. They looked like more problems than they were worth. Now I'm getting where I don't even care about the problems (at least somewhat) Sex, would be nice thing for me now, of course, but it would still have to be with the right person that I could trust (still) and she would commit to me (still). I've been out of the loop for a long, long time.

Any idea where I can find, a decent moral person at my age that is looking for a long term relationship. Shacking up with someone just to satisfy my biological desires, sometimes may be tempting, but I still know its wrong, and would probably not do it, when actual push came to shove. Can't say I haven't been tempted to though, I mean we all have needs(LOL)

Laugh it up guys. I just know that I am a horny middle aged gentleman that doesn't want to get myself into trouble, but would like to be near someone, hopeful in the near future as I am not getting any younger.

Would like to know where to start my search for a decent female to admire and express my affection toward.

thanks for any help/ advice you could give.

And of course let the jokes begin (LOL)

BTW I'm not shy! I would ask any woman out, and have one heck of a time to boot, but there are other issues now, manily there is not much to choose from around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:56 AM

I didn't actually get married util I was forty, and always thought that a bit early really, although I've never been remotely close to straying.

Most of the time before this i got involved with women who were a bit like chasing a bar of soap around the bath. If you look for things too hard it often ends in disappointment; more often than not love will creep up on you slowly when you are least expecting it. Just get as active and varied social life as you can, and see what happens rather than all this internet rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

This is no electronic couch, but you might wish to consider again why you thought in your teens and twenties "no real love, no real committment, etc." and how it seems to be the same for you now. I think you probably have some personal problems you need to still work through (your description of the woman you were briefly involved with would raise danger signals in any woman I know) about relationships.

Unless you are living in a cave, my experience is that decent females tend to come around when you are decent to start with. You should get on with being interesting, and interesting things will happen to you.



yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

If a man doesnt talk respectfull about women what hope do they have that he will behave respectfully

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

Stop 'looking'. With both sexes the opposite sex seems mostly to have an antenna that recognises desperation and either avoids like the plague or takes advantage.

Try and get together with people who share your own interests, try to make friends with women without thinking about whether any particular one could be the love of your life. Sounds to me as if you have looked on women as a different species, there only for romantic or sexual purposes. It's possible that the women in your life may have picked up on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM

Dewey... "I turned her offer down though, and she broke my heart in two."

After a week?

Dewey have a problem here?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

Hi Dewey

Sounds like maybe you are turning a corner in your life. Exciting things could happen. Maybe emotional intimacy is what you are looking for. If this is the case, get publicly involved in things that interest you. Be it hobby, politics, charity work, whatever.

When you meet a likeminded lady, listen actively when she talks on the shared interest. Don't be afraid to argue politely if you disagree. Let her know if you enjoyed the natter and thank her if her ideas gave you something to think about.

Rinse and repeat this process. Even if you don't find a lady love, you may very well make some very good female friends who can then help you find that one special someone.

Good luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

It's not very helpful to say there are "no good women here" for those of us who don't know where you are.

A better definition than "middle aged" is truly needed now than in the past, as in many places that means 30 but elsewhere it actually is nearer 50 or beyond.

1. If possible, attend your next high school reunion. You knew them then, and they will mostly have much in common by way of background and culture that you will be able to relate to easily, instead of digging out the details via a new meeting. And by "middle age" (by whatever is your definition) there will likely be a number who are currently "unattached."

1.a. If there isn't a reunion coming up soon, your class may have a "class directory" that you could request from one of the "organizers" if you can identify one.

1.b. If "going back" is of interest, and you don't know who your organizers are, there are a number of websites (Classmates.com, Reunion.com, etc.) where you may be able to find at least one or two people you remember who could put you in touch with more interesting ones. NOTE: these sites are all total crap as websites and for the purposes intended, some require "membership" to look around, and "paid memeberships" to actually communicate with anybody; but you're desparate so you should be able to glean what's available with minimal commitment.

2. Volunteer to help with a community or church "youth group." You're obviously NOT INTERESTED in the typically late-adolescent members of the group (although many groups include up through college student ages), but they will instantly pass on to their mothers/aunts/uncles(if they think you're interested) that there's a new "eligible" in circulation. The drawback to this approach is that you have to tolerate (or even like) being around the nasty little "youthy" buggers, but there are risks to everything.

3. Rather than trying to join web "dating sites," or even just visiting the ones where you don't have to sign up, try running a "within x miles of" browse at MySpace (no registration or even login required to look) or at other "personal page" sites for persons who might match up. (Look for sites you don't have to join?)

The free "dating sites" and many of the paid ones are often more come-ons for porn and prostitution than for dating. The "personal page" sites of more general nature are less likely to produce only "commercial soliciting." (If your middle-age definition extends a little upward, be aware that 30% of the "over 50" females at MySpace are actually 13 lying about their age to "avoid perverts.")

The purpose here is not to find someone. It's a market survey to see what's actually available in your area. And remember that it doesn't represent the entire market.

4. There are probably a number of organizations for "middle aged singles" in your area, although they may be disguised under less obvious names. Check the "clubs and activities" section of a local newsapaper - or sometimes better yet in a local free "undergound" newspaper that you'll likely find on a table near the "rest rooms" at Borders or Barnes. A well-known one that probably will have at least similarly aged membership, as an example only, is called "Parents Without Partners." They require that you have a child, although you don't have to have custody and some groups will accept you if you have "frequent supervision" of one even if it's not yours, and you must (in my area) have a preacher or a lawyer certify that you're single. Quality of membership in this one is extremely variable and I'm not recommending them - just suggesting the kinds of groups you can look for, and a typical disguese for one. There should be at least a few other vaguely similar orgs for you to check out if you're willing to do some hunting.

5. With your expressed aversion to dating you probably aren't much enamored of joining organizations; but you must recognize that to find people you must be where there are people. Don't just sit at home polishing your butt and hoping something will come along without any effort on your own part. But DON'T go places that you truly don't like, since you're quite unlikely to like the people who like them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:08 AM

As others have pointed out, quit lookin' and if ya' can't do that, at the very least, quit lookin' in the wrong places...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

I thought this was about dating stuff from the Middle Ages, like writings and clothes and things.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Focus on activities and how to be friends to the women who participate in them. Then let one of them pick YOU. Yield to the soft leadership of today's women. Make your priciples clear in your actions and words, and stick to them relaxedly. The rest will "happen."

~Former Middle Aged ManFinder (happily married to him)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:33 AM

I 'most always do what women tell me 'cause it's easier that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

snerk

Call Chivalric Code today to meet your star-crossed love. Matchmakers live and on line ready to take your details and introduce you to the perfect lord or lady.

Chaperones and love (and suicide) potions available for small extra fee.

Courtly love

chivalry quotient quiz

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:41 AM

Sorry Dewey

Didn't mean to make light of your thread. Rapaire made me do it.

I am on the same team as WYSIWIG. I met my honey on New Years Day 2001 in a poetry forum. He asked me to critique something he had written. I shredded it. It was pretty awful. He is evidently a masochist cuz he came back for more. Now he writes better than me. The cheek.

Anyway odd story weirder.... we married New Years day 2003.

Happy Anniversary, my love (he is SilentOne on the Mudcat).

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

Dewey, I think there might be some baggage you have to sort through in addition to looking for a woman whose dating ethos parallels yours.

Jacqui and Virginia nailed it with their remarks.

John commented about going to your high school reunion. That is an idea--and an eye-opener. Those classmate sites are an advertising boondoggle--I looked at one in the "free" mode for a while and was hammered by all of their email solicitations. I agree with him, joining on of those is not necessarily going to offer anything useful. Instead, set up an account on Facebook and make sure your groups include the high school you attended and the year you graduated.

Mudcatters have met and married through this forum, though they generally fall in the category of "regulars." 168 posts in the last nine years doesn't give members a lot of material to work with. If you're looking at Mudcat as a source of inspiration and community, then visiting here more often could be useful.

If you continue to inhabit the lunatic fringe, I don't predict a successful meeting here. But whatever, good luck.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

Advice free for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

SRS, thanks for the link...I knew there was something but couldn't put my finger on it.

Dewey, you sound to em as though you are prejudging any and all women you meet. Lots of good advice above.

JohninKS - I coined "center/centre-aged" a few years ago...still doesn't denote a specific age, but I like it better than the overused "middle' with its negative connotations.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM

Both "center aged" and "middle aged" makes it look like you know where the other end is.... I have to stop and figure out how old I am whenever I'm asked (and I've always had to do so) because my age really has never made any difference to me and it shouldn't to anyone else.

If you find someone who is 20 years younger or older and who loves you, don't worry about years.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:55 PM

If you are getting leapt on frequently (without payment) you are better off than most. Don't sweat. Rub along with anyone who rubs the right bits of you and see what happens. You are over the worst period of your life for desperation and no longer need anyone to look after you so what are you so hassled about?

Oh, and don't do anything precipitate that could prove expensive, like matrimony or moving.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

or getting an std

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I had to reset cookie, above Guest post was me.
Dating and an idea of life in the Middle Ages


Most people dated early in the year, hoping to get married in June. The reason, most people then took a yearly bath in May and still smelled OK in June. But, they were beginning to smell bad, so brides carried flowers to hide the funky odor. This may be a reason that brides carry a bouquet when getting married today.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:32 PM

STD? I know some people under 30 and they tell me that a condom is normal even if the fear of pregnancy is past or chemically or surgically restrained, and that one should not kiss what one has not visually inspected.

The difference between love and herpes is that herpes is for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:57 PM

Perhaps I gave up on this thread too soon. I mean, it seemed trite to me from the first post. However, there are some great posts on the subject herein. Insightful, caring....

I identify, in a way. I gave it all up over a dozen years ago. I, too, find myself now, late at night, upset that I didn't persue matrimony and having children. I am now soon 52 years old. Am I too old to have children? If so, why chase after flesh? or a "relationship"?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

Now I am going to be worrying my nights away about lonely catters.

Christ... ain't I got enough on my plate?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

Well, gnu, if you're not post-menopausal childbearing may still be an option even at your age. You might also consider adopting.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

I'd like to see him try it, Rap!   ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:25 PM

Just take it easy on yourself and on anyone you fancy.

A sexual relationship, like friendship, should not be stressful.

So follow your nose and let it lead you where you are happy ...




... and take it easy ...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

gnu, gno! You are not too old. We have a few catters who have actually become parents in their late 40s and early 50s if my memory serves.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:53 PM

I know lots of old 30 year olds.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, speaking of 30 years olds...

Just how old/young are you, Dewey??? I mean, "middle age" is a relative term these days...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM

I'm 39. thanks for asking. I guess I should have mentioned that.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM

So was Jack Benny and he's dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

Rap, always the voice of raison.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

Just doing my bit to make the world a little more surreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

39, heh???

Not to worry much.... Time is on your side...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:41 PM

I may have mislead some of you. I'm still about as clean as the snow. The lady I spoke to I never met in person at all. It was just on the phone for about a week or so. And to start it was a clean and normal conversation.

She was listed as wanting a long term relationship, it was not a hook up. She lead me on and later when her true personality came out and her real intentions were made clear, I instantly dumped her with a broken heart, which was regretful only in the fact that I could not have an intimate relationship with her some day.

Also, if I talk of hook ups, they are in the back of my head, not in my heart, or not in the physical world for example. perhaps my biggest fault here is being too honest about my temptations, so as I am not understood correctly.

For example, to understand better.....If was tempted by a woman and she accepted. Ironically, I would probably end up still turning here down.

Your daughter for example, could be the hottest woman on the planet, and I probably sitll wouldn't do anything to her. But I would be a liar if I said to you, that I didn't cross my mind and I didn't desire to (does that make any sense?)

I had a gorgeous lady give me her phone number a month ago in a bar. I don't go into bars much but I was playing music there. She said the number was for guitar lessons. But every time I see her in person and bring up the subject of guitar she just walks away.


I feel so cheated at my age. But as the last example should show, when it comes my time, I always do what's right despite the human side of me which is tempted, and that is the truth. The cold hard truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM

There are people who invariably equate "yielding to sin" to sexual activity, just as when they say 'moral' they are inevitably referring to sexual matters. Do they truly, truly believe that their God holds physical pleasure between two consenting adults in greater disapprobation than gossip, cheating, character defamation, exploitation of the weak and helpless, gloating at someone else's misfortune or the blind pursuit of the almighty dollar?

If there is a God, I know which I believe. And I don't think that I am wiser than God.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:41 PM

I agree Ebbie. I think Jesus, wasn't alarmed by the woman who was "caught in the act", despite her accusors. he said, "neither do I condemn THEE"


everybody remembers the "go and sin no more part," which is sound advise, but have they an idea that God understands, probably doesn't worry about it, and doesn't condemn. We are are harder on ourselves than our creator would be. I agree with you, that though some sex acts are mistakes and improper, they are no worse in the eyes of God than any other potential act.

Even my Christian mother said she would understand, if I yielded and desired a relationship outside of a marriage. But I still hope that never happens because my instincts tell me that would not be my answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM

Listen to me, son...

You got stuff all backwards here... Seems that yer issue is sexual... Forget sex... Just put it out of yer little 39 year old brain for a minute...

Just think of women as people...

(What a navel concept, BOberdz...)

Okay they is mostly nutty people that men don't understand but that is fir another thread, or lots of threads...

But they are people first and formost...

Waht are yer interests in life??? Music??? Art??? Friggin' NASCAR??? Entering as many hot-dog eatin' contests as you can???

I mean, sex and youth and all that will one day fade a little and then yer gonna be stuck if that is what got you into a relationship... Right??? You all but said that yerself...

So wrap yerself in the things that interest you and keep yer eyes open... That is where you will meet the woman who will be there with similar interests after the the music dies (figuratively speaking, of course)...

Like I said earlier... Yer looking in the wrong places...

You follow ol' Bobert's advice herem youngin'... Ya' hear???

I'd say "good luck" but if ya' do what I say ain't no luck involved...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:46 PM

Then go with your instincts -- God won't care, God has bigger things to worry about than what who does what to whom.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Beaubear, to coin a phrase, have I told you lately that I love you?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 09:03 PM

Getting near a "GOOD" woman is like petting a cat. You have to act like you don't want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:00 PM

Following your nose is entirely the wrong end of your body with which to be thinking about this. I'm afraid your head has been damaged by moralistic claptrap. Men form and maintain relationships largely through physical sex and don't let anyone preach the contrary.

That said, those who manage least to make a bird dog of themselves often succeed the most.

And anyway, what would you want a "GOOD" woman for?

Not that there may not be many others who would be better examples to you than I.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:18 PM

Hi Kids: When true Love finds you, it will be most likely when you least expect it. It's nature will be Spiritual, not physical. You will feel that when you are apart, something is missing.
It will come from something beyond human comprehension, and when it arrives, it will be impossible to turn away from it, for it is of God...
BR

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:35 PM

Thanks Bobert! wise advice!

My head still rules over my pants. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so honest here? (LOL)

I have other wise people tell me the same thing, "when it happens, it will happen. You cannot force it, just because you desire love. etc. etc."


I don't go to bars, so I know I won't pick up those kind of woman, ever.


Thanks, I'll be patient and keep looking.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:39 PM

Thanks Guest Bob. I have had spiritual experiences similar to those you speak of. I believe there are no accidents, and that God has a plan beyond the physical, and it includes the provision of one's mate, hopeful when the time is right.

Just pray the time is soon, before my life is over (LOL)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:47 PM

The classic example is that the ideal woman is a lady in the living room and a whore in the bedroom. Although the woman who was seeking to hook up with you may have been jumping the gun a bit on where the relationship was, she was clearly trying to get you to extend yourself a bit.

My ex-wife met me several times before we got together for an extended period. Lady Hillary met me at the New York Boat Show, where I was working in the art gallery. She was attending the boat show and I was not particularly looking for anyone. We took our time on the relationship and it has endured for 6 years, now.

Don't be too judgemental about the morals of others. Try to accept them as they see each other. It will make everything a lot easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:14 AM

To repeat myself, this is not an electronic couch. To the outside observer, you have a lot of unresolved problems which are interfering with your way of operating in the world, let alone finding the right woman. I would respectfully suggest that you might consider going to a therapist or a counsellor instead of listening to this crowd (I include myself).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:08 AM

I've recently been struck by the number of friends of mine who've gone through divorces and separations in their fifties and sixties. Once, you thought you were pretty assured once the birds had flown the nest, but several of my friends have found themselves cast adrift at the time of life when it is not that easy to strike up a new relationship, just as it's not that easy to find new employment if you lose your job at that age.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

I often think it's a pity that people rush to try new-fangled methods -- such as on-line dating sites on the Internet -- when the old-fangled methods of meeting respectable people are far more reliable, not to speak of cheaper. By old-fangled, I mean methods such as talking to friendly-looking people at church, at your regular jam session, at the gym, at work, or any other place where you routinely meet the same people over and over again, and you can be reasonable sure you have a great deal in common with them, such as culture, profession, interests, age and education. The other great advantage of these venues is that you can be reasonably sure that the people you meet there are sober (well, perhaps not at a pub session) and acting as honestly as they ever do.

The thing is to find people in their own natural habitat, as it were, and engage them fair and square in honest activities over a protracted period. Then you can see them as they are, and they can see you as you are.

Unlike Internet dating, this method takes time, patience and sincerity. Also unlike Internet dating, it works -- as any happily remarried middle-aged or older individual will tell you. And you end up with a genuine circle of friends and friendly acquaintances, even if you don't find the love of your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

I think it is time to stop categorizing "types" of women. "Good" women and "whores"--geez, Louise, but this binary of yours is a huge problem. Stop trying to figure out this absurd either/or dichotomy, and open your eyes to the people around you in the places you spend your days.

Peter T is restating what I was aiming at above, so I second his remarks. It sounds like you need to know yourself a bit better before you are able to get close enough to "know" a woman, in whatever context that happens to be. 'nuf said.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

I agree. PeterT's advice is the spot on.


This bullshit of "nice" women not liking sex or not being what a man wants in the bedroom is old, patriarchal bullshit.

Oh, and this "nice" woman used to go to bars often when she was a single mom...*gasp!* Met some really nice fellahs and had some fun...was NOT a drunk nor a whore. Sheesh! Times have changed, folks!


katwhodatedmyRogthefirstweekImethimmovedinthreemonthslater
andthatwasthirtyyearsago

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM

Say that five times fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:22 PM

If you meet someone and more-or-less hit it off, please don't cut and run immediately if she indicates an interest in moving on to a, um, more physical level sooner than you might deem appropriate.

You seem to have enough self-awareness to recognize that you're a bit more inhibited in that area than most other folks your age in your culture. Don't be too quick to judge, to conclude that a woman is a "slut," just because she's not right on your (fairly unusual) wavelength.

She might very well be acting on the very understandable assumption that a man, any male, will expect such a development sooner rather than later, and maybe she likes you well enough that she doesn't wish to disappoint. Keep in mind that most of us who are no longer kids have become accustomed to a less celibate lifestyle than yours, whether married or otherwise, and whether with a single partner or in a number of "serial monogamous" relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

This post is not intended to be for the electronic couch, its just my point of view in this conversation.


Whoever you meet, you will meet because you are sexually attracted to them.


So if you spend your time at star trek conventions you will probably end up with someone who is into star trek.

If you spend your time in posy nightclubs you will end up with a posy nightclubber.

If you're not into star trek you will find that you don't connect with the girls you meet at trekkie conventions.

If you aren't into posing at nightclubs you probably won't have much to talk about with nightclub posers.

I love playing Jazz and I can talk about it for hours and not only will I not get bored, but you'll find it hard to shut me up.

So any girl who is into jazz etc is likely to have a good conversation with me.

And as I tend to suround myself with such types, its likely that anyone I fancy who runs in my circles in likely to be someone with whom I am compatible - someone I get on with - someone who shares my interests.

My interest in Jazz is what makes me interesting to her.

I don't wear it like a badge to impress her, I just indulge my interest in it - and that makes me interesting to her.

So you have to go and do the things that you find interesting nd that you love and can't shut up about cos then when you meet someone you fancy, chances are they will be someone you like if you meet them in the context of the stuff you like to do.

Make sense?


You haven't got a problem, you're just under a lot of pressure.

Go have some fun doing what you enjoy and you'll meet a girl who enjoys the same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

From Bobzy:

"Okay they is mostly nutty people that men don't understand but that is fir another thread, or lots of threads..."

POO PAH POO!!   We is very sensibubble people! You men just don't understand us proper, that's all. :0)


Dewey: "My head still rules over my pants...."

Put your pants on your head, Dewey and to hell with the rules. ;0)


Ah Bob, Mamacita!   :0) x

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Lox.....Take five..and relax :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:16 PM

39 is young. 79 is middle aged.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM

Dewey: She'll find YOU, my friend. (Even if you're in the ICU, heavily medicated, with needles in both arms and tubes up your nose and other areas we won't talk about here) all you need to do is think about keeping your thoughts on having Love to GIVE, even while there is hatred, jealousy, despair, and misery all around you...
bob

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM

I tried an internet date site, Dewey, put all the info in, and you know what it told me? there were no men available that met my criteria. :-)

(most teeth, ability to prepare spinach pie and wash up afterwards, must have deep understanding of worm farming in inner urban gardens, must be awake when required, must not talk about his liver, must have capacity to make me laugh, or cry, as required)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM

Remember the song, too:

I'm in love with a big blue frog,
A big blue frog loves me.
It's not as bad as it appears
He wears glasses and he's six foot three.

Well I'm not worried about our kids,
I know they'll turn out neat.
They'll be great lookin' 'cause they'll have my face,
Great swimmers 'cause they'll have his feet!

Well I'm in love with a big blue frog,
A big blue frog loves me.
He's not as bad as he appears,
He's got rhythm and a PhD.

Well I know we can make things work
He's got good fam'ly sense.
His mother was a frog from Philadelphia
His daddy an enchanted prince.

The neighbors are against it and it's clear to me
And it's prob'ly clear to you
They think value on their property will go right down
If the family next door is blue.

Well I'm in love with a big blue frog
A big blue frog loves me
I've got it tattooed on my chest
It says P.H.R.O.G. (It's frog to me!)
P.H.R.O.G.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:10 PM

A tree-hugger friend of mine told me, just last week, that the best way to do this, whether it's a middle-age person -- or a young child -- or an elderly wrinkled prune -- is to use the same method you would with a tree.

Cut her or him in half, and then just count the rings!!!

You can even tell, if you know how to look closely, if it's been a wet or a dry year.

"ART THIEME"
(Yeah, I'm proud o' this one!!!!!!!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

At about the age referenced, it's common for men (especially of the male sex) to reassess themselves and decide that changes are needed.

This phenomenon is called by a number of names, but the most common are perhaps "mid-life crisis" or "male menopause," with the cliche stereotypical outward expression via the purchase of a new (sportier perhaps) car.

By coincidence, some guidance in this particular transition is perhaps offered by a website linked (inadvertently?) in another thread:

Ten Car Types and the Women They Attract

[Bobert will like No 8, although he doesn't need any such advice.]

More seriously, the question at hand often reminds me of a very old movie whose name I don't recall, with a scene in which the young enamored swain seeks the hand of the daughter.

Pappy asks: "Do you like her."

Swain replies to the effect of: "I love her with a grand passion that will endure to the end of eternity."

Pappy replies: "Yeah, sure, I'm sure you do;

        but do you LIKE her."

That's what it really takes.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

And just to redress some of the negative comments made by some posters - I met my husband on an internet dating site. Yes, there were a lot of trolls, and less-than-desirable individuals, but hey, you can meet those in "real life" easily enough, too. It was in many ways far better than meeting in a bar, or at a party, or in some more conventional way because we were initially attracted to each other by the way we interacted with others in the chatroom and the things we had to say rather than the way we dressed or looked and rather than working under the influence of adrenalin or alcohol. And everyone on the site was there because they wanted to meet others. Yes, some people in the chatrooms were less than honest about their marital status, age and appearance but hey, I've met less than honest people in "real life", too.

I was clear about the kind of person I was looking for, and although it took me about six months to sift through and "audition" various other possible people (and that was quite an enjoyable and educational process in itself!) my husband found me within two days of joining the website. We went from on-line chat and phone calls to a real meeting fairly rapidly, which meant we didn't have time to build up false expectations about each other - we were lucky in that we only lived 130 miles apart. We've also been lucky because from the very first moment it's all been simple, straightforward and easy. Best relationship I've ever had with anyone.

We've been together eight years this month. We know quite a few other couples who met via that particular dating site (although I don't think I'd recommend it to others these days as it's become a lot more blatant and unpleasant now) - so we know that internet dating, like other forms of meeting people, can work perfectly well.

However, one certain thing - whatever age you're at, it's never easy to meet a perfect partner and it might well take a few mistakes along the way to get the relationship you really, really want. If you give up at the first stumble you'll never get there - and if you settle for second-best it's only likely to end in heartbreak for one or both of you. The great advantage to meeting someone later in your life is that you should have built up a fair quantity of self-knowledge and clarity about what you want from life (and so should your potential partner). If you haven't done that so far, it should probably be a priority!

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:44 PM

Face it: you never get the relationship you really, really want.

Settle for a rental of what you can put up with, rather than the purchase of something you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:25 AM

Richard - I can only speak for myself, but I do indeed have the relationship I really, really want! It took me a while to find it, but it was, in fact, worth the wait.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

All new cars are nice when they are new...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:25 AM

And a vintage car when it is looked after is even nicer .........

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:40 AM

I once thought I'd rather stay in a relationship that was broken in and comfortable. Took me 20+ years to realise I was the one being broken and that I was almost always uncomfortable. Well maybe not to realise but to finally act on it and get out before it killed me.

My "new" happened to me 8 years and 4 days ago and still feels pretty new. This time, I got the whole enchilada - intellectual, emotional, physical intimacy, genuine respect for my ideas and opinions and pure unadulterated kindness. It is no wonder I call him Angel. Had he not been in my life when certain intervening events occurred, I would no longer be here. He is the part of me that was missing but I didn't know until he filled it(no entendre intended). I am complete.

Lucky me.

I wish this fortune for anyone who has not had / does not have it. I am sad for any who do not believe it exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

Ebbie,

You know that ol' Bueabear loves you right on back...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM

A new car is no longer new when it's eight years old and you can generally hear the rattles and know the parts that need replacing. Mine is still in mint condition.
I'm sorry if Richard hasn't found the relationship he really wants but there's really no cause to suggest that no one ever does - some of us do, and have. Like Virginia Tam, I'm sorry if your experiences mean you don't believe these things exist. They do.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM

Oh, no, I think I have the relationship I want now: none (well, the dog will die soon).

People are so inconvenient. Essex Girl visited my Lower Stoke session recently and she and I were agreed that neither of us would really want to share a house with another person again.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

For sure, such things exist. That doesn't mean that everyone finds them, but they do exist. Looking around me, I'd say that a relatively small minority of people actually find such a joyful and enduring relationship with someone else.

Most people can't handle being on their own too well, though, so they settle for something less than the ideal situation...maybe a good deal less. They may even settle for misery in company rather than being alone!

Me, I'd rather be alone any day than suffer misery in company.

As for the kind of relationship Virgina Tam describes...well, yeah, you're lucky, VT! I do not expect to find such a relationship anymore at this late date. I expect to be alone and to manage okay with it. I am complete, in any case. I don't require someone else in order to complete myself, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the great worth of what you have, VT. I was searching for something like that all through my 20s, 30s, 40s, and most of my 50s. I have now come to the conclusion that it ain't gonna happen in this lifetime, so I might as well be happy with what I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

To be honest.... before I met my current honey I dreamed and dreamed of not having the tedium of taking care of a onesided relationship. It was terribly difficult, thankless and just not worth the energy. I was worried that every relationship would be like that and was quite prepared to be blissfully alone... until I met my current love.

So I can understand where RB is coming from.

Like I said I am lucky. I don't have to work at it. We rub along beautifully together. We enjoy each other's company. We have the same interests.

is all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

"Like I said I am lucky. I don't have to work at it. We rub along beautifully together. We enjoy each other's company. We have the same interests."

I'm lucky too. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Get a room!

Seriously, the whole concept of a 'date' is weird at my age. I never liked it when I was younger either (may explain why I've never been married). You found somebody you liked and did stuff with them. You didn't do stuff first, then discover you liked them. There aren't a lot of people I like who like me back. (You get older, you get weirder too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

Has anyone noticed that Middle Age Dating = M.A.D?

Uh Oh....   

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

Sounds about right Jeri!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:38 PM

I always felt that way about dating too, Jeri...a weird concept (!) ...and I never got married either. I also like to get together with other people simply because we share some common interest, that's all. Most of the people I know well are musicians, and we get together to play music. Seems like a good basis for relating to me.

You are quite right that we all get weirder (and harder to deal with) as we get older. Dogs are like that too. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

"Dating" is part of a formalised or semi-formalised courtship ritual in which the objectives are either sexual congress or matrimony, sometimes both.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

Right. Since I was never thinking in terms of seeking matrimony, that kind of cancelled out at least half the motivation right there... ;-) Silly me, though, I was always looking for "true love" (the romantic ideal of it). Not a practical bone in my body when it comes to this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM

funnily i weren't looking for no sparkin. i were just mindin my own beezwax, writin and critikewing the poertree in the virtuality of the interwub. when along comes this wannuhbee poem writer aksin fer my help on his poertree. it was right awful, but I soon set him straight. later found out he were an English, edumacated with masters in putering after taking honors in the astro.... in the astro.... uummm er stars and planets and space gasonomy.   so he is real 'telligent.

mostly he is sweet as pie... can't beat that.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:14 PM

What the hell??? Sounds to me like you just started doing a mind-meld with Bobert! (I am referring to the fractured patois in your last post, not your offline relationship.)

I wasn't exactly lookin' fer sparkin' either. What I was looking for was to be in love with someone. I was looking for someone that I could have a great emotional rapport with and connect with in that fashion...someone I would just love to be around...someone with qualities which I admire and respect. The desire for sparkin' normally follows such an encounter in a natural fashion, since you already like the person that much, then you are going to get a strong urge to get physically closer to them soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Or, you meet someone who turns your crank. Oh, I guess that is what you meant. In a more romantic way.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

Hmmm...at least you can kick-start a sump-pump, LH!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Yes, there is that. ;-)

It always happens first in the heart for me, gnu. I get a tremendous warmth and glow in my heart region (right in the center of my chest) when I'm around the person...a profound sense of tenderness and affection for them. An enormous sense of respect and concern for their welfare.

It's awhile later that the feeling starts to move "south".

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

"Dating" is part of a formalised or semi-formalised courtship ritual in which the objectives are either sexual congress or matrimony, sometimes both. "


Ooh, Richard! You romantic, you! :0)


Little Hawk, I'm a bit depressed that I may end up like my dog! Yikes!! ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:44 PM

Well... I dunno. I said it earlier. I really would, at nearly 52, like to find HER and to even have children. But, even tho I might not find that one to have children with, should I bother with the rest of it? I mean, c'mon now, do I need to deal with learning to fold the laundry her way? I mean, really? If the laundry is clean and neat, why do I have to do it her way?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:48 PM

You still would contemplate having children at 52????????? Sheesh. I sure wouldn't. It takes about 20 years to raise them, you know...theoretically.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:57 PM

Theoretically, yeah - and probably a lot longer than that in actuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

Good Lord! 52, for a man, is still way young enough to have children!

Bruce Forsyth is 80 and has a 21 year old son.

David Jason had his little daughter (his first child) at the age of 61

David and his little girl

And of course, there's Des, a father again at 74..

Des O'Connor and his son

It's not your age that matters, but your love for your child.

Yes, it can be harder when you're a bit older, or even a lot older, but hey, you can be a really fit Dad of 21, then have a terrible accident, and be in a wheelchair the rest of your life..or worse, die very young.

Nothing in life is guaranteed.

If you still long for children, and you meet someone who feels the same way, then smile...and go for it, because the chances are, your children will know exactly how loved and wanted they are.

Fingers crossed for you, gnu.. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:16 PM

"If the laundry is clean and neat, why do I have to do it her way?"

Because you love her, and no doubt she'll grit her teeth at times too and do things 'your' way, because she knows it makes you happy. It's what it's all about, Alfie...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:18 PM

One clue about Middle Age dating: never tell your secrets to a Cistercian monk.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM

Well, Lizzie, for them as wants to do it...fine with me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

You men are lucky you know, being able to have children all your life long, if you wanted to....and you *never* once have to give birth, either! Now, *who* thought that idea up???? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

It appears to lend some credence to the absurd notion that "God" is an old patriarch with a beard, doesn't it, Lizzie? ;-)

On the other hand, there's multiple orgasms. Women (some of them anyway) have it all over men when it comes to that, and don't think we don't envy you for it! You also get to wear a greater variety of neat clothing styles and you can sing at a higher pitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

Nature created a cut off point for having children for a reason anyone over 45 has little chance of being around when their family need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

"It appears to lend some credence to the absurd notion that "God" is an old patriarch with a beard, doesn't it, Lizzie? ;-)"

Too bloomin' right, LH! :0) Heck, God is going to be so sorry for all those mistakes when I get up there! I have a whole list of "Right, come on, I'm listening, WHERE did you get *that* idea from???" questions, and I'll have all the time in the world, and out of it, to nag him until I get the answers... :0)

"On the other hand, there's multiple orgasms. Women (some of them anyway) have it all over men when it comes to that,"

Quick, Nurse! The Screens! :0)


"...and don't think we don't envy you for it!"

Nope, I'm sorry, (lol) that simply doesn't make up for all that ridiculous 'birth' stuff. I mean we could *at least* have been fitted with zips! Yeesh!

Giving birth is like that old Bob Newhart record..."You do WHAT, Walt?" ;0)


I hear you Meg, but.....you can just as easily die young as old. I know the chances are obviously slimmer, but my Dad only had his Mum for 15 years, as she died quite young, and one of my friends on Dartmoor, in her early 30s died in a car crash when her youngest child was just 3 months old. Her other 3 daughters went from 7 to 11...and the 7 year old has cerebral palsy.

I'm a great believer in 'if it's meant to be, it's meant to be'..and my Dad was far older than all my friends dads (insert ' wherever you want 'cos I've not a clue where they fit in there) :0)   but I never thought of Dad as an 'age', only ever as Dad, and he had more time for me than my Mum, came from a different generation, as there was near on 20 years age gap between them. I was 33 when he died, but he got to cuddle his first grandchild for nearly 3 years and he poured love into her, knowing his time with her was short.

Strangely, I was the same age when I had my younger child, as Dad was when he had me.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

Of course god is a man I mean who else but a man would say to another man. "Mind and tell the wife no tae eat that apple" and actually expect him tae remember past the first pub. Girls will ken whit i mean if they hiv ever tried to get information from hubby after he has been on the phone for an hour.

Meg fetches her coat and walking stick and exits before she is asked tae pick a windy

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

LOL! I never get tired of hearing you talk like that, Megan. Of course, we aren't married, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

sing at a higher pitch...

2 remedies for that - one temporary, one permanent - pick one insert evil grin

Here I am a woman anall... workin like the devil to get and keep my voice at a lower pitch without sacrificing any estrogen (multiple orgies are very important)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:08 PM

Right..... (rolling my eyes)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

I think I've lost the plot...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

Why do you want your voice at a lower pitch, VT? Are you aiming for the "Lauren Bacall" throaty purr...? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:12 AM

Dewey--This discussion has meandered off topic. I'm bringing it back to tell you something important(others have said it, but it bears repeating)--

You want to opposite things--to be intimate with someone, and to keep yourself pure--and it's been tearing you apart for a long time. You need to spend time working it out, and you'll need help from a therapist/counselor/minister.

The rest of this stuff dating/mating stuff won't fall into place till after you've done that--

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:49 AM

Rapaire is correct, In the Middle Ages dating was a quick and breezy affair among the lower classes. The upper class however required as much as 45 minutes just to get undressed even with the help of servants. This often proved too tedious by day so nightime became the best opportunity with the aid of secret passages and chambers in the castle.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,kopo
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

You remind me of myself...get into your life and share it with others. Put your particular form of service first. Let the relationship be an extension of what you already are. Ask that you meet someone good and let it go. Well, that's how I thought it would work. No answers here mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

A lot to be said for the Folk world. Clubs, sessions, festivals, ceilidhs. Ceilidhs are a great mixer, you get to touch without hidden agenda. It can say a lot. And judging by the care one has to greet some folk couples with - mixing is definitely a theme.

Of course if you have been doing these things for some time the catchment cohort may be familiar and unless the assemblage are "new" it may not be as exciting.

But like the Mudcat - it pays to lurk and find out the situation before revealing yourself.

What I found with newspaper ads and latterly internet was that there is a lot of text (rehearsed, considered and sometime delusiary) but the visuals are poor to non-existant and the visuals are what we have evolved to react to.
Ya can't buck nature without a downside. Get and mingle.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:21 PM

Megan:

"Girls will ken whit i mean if they hiv ever tried to get information from hubby after he has been on the phone for an hour. "

Hmmm...in what alternate universe is HE on the phone for an hour?

Jist askin...

W-O
durnnear25purtygoodyearswithagoodwomanandshehasntkickedmeoutyetdespiteoccasionalexasperation (but when she gets on the phone I don't exist)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

Lizzie... "Because you love her, and no doubt she'll grit her teeth at times too and do things 'your' way, because she knows it makes you happy."

I am a man. I do not have a "my" way.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:17 PM

Right on, Willie-O. Women and phones...it has to be seen (and heard) to be believed... ;-)

Why are most women more articulate than most men? Well, because practice makes perfect, that's why!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:27 PM

What, gnu, are you implying about Farnk Sinatra?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

Farnk Sinatra - Frank's little known half brother. He never made it in music, and died penniless and unshaven in a gutter in Skinkville, Alabama in 1959.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

He did it Farnk's way...an in-family joke for doing things as bass-ackwards as possible. The neologism led, eventually, to the famous movie "Out Farnk's Way" about a rundown dilapidated farmhouse out past the back of beyond. The expression also found its way into military slang, where "being put in Farnk's way" meant being sent on a long, complicated, frustrating path to accomplish little or nothing of any importance.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

My thoughts on middle aged dating { I got married for the first time at age 45 } are as follows:

1 - Where ever you go - there you are.
2 - It's alot easier for women to find the qualities in you that are lovable once you've found out those lovable parts for yourself.
3 - In other words - you have to love yourself in an appropriate way before someone else can love you
4 - The Swat Team of Love is not going to bust down your door and find you.
5 - Most women prefer well groomed men. Check you breath, underarms and your shoes. They say a lot about you.
6 - Most women like good listeners. Practice saying: "UM", "AH" and "Oh" a lot. Then practice again. Don't offer advice unless asked.
7 - The perfect woman doesn't exist. Neither does the perfect man.
8 - 99.999 percent of women like getting flowers. But not right away. On a first date it could scare some women off.
9 - Don't reveal too much too soon. Leave a little bit of mystery.
10 - Don't say you're going to do something and not follow through. Don't say you're going to call if you don't mean it. Women keep track of these things and they don't forget stuff. Ever.

Overall a relationship with a member of the opposite sex can be the most fulfilling thing you can ever do. But like anything else it takes work. You'll get out what you put into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

Been there seen it, done it. bought the tee shirt, made a hole in it, sewed it up, made another hole, bought another one, made a hole in that, sewed it up... bought another one, bought another one, bought another one.... awwwwww what the heck, I guess being on my own aint so bad really... just get a bit lonely occasionally..... but can meet with friends and talk about how good things were.... or how bad... depending on mood.
Middle age dating... you are welcome.... be who you are, where you are, with what you have and be above all.... happy with life as it is for you.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

A lesbian friend of mine says that she pities heterosexuals because they have such a hard time meeting each other. The whole gay/lesbian culture has all kinds of mating/meeting rituals in clubs and dances and so on.   I hadn't thought about it before, but she is right.


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

That is ironical, Peter. Amazing what strength accurues to people who see themselves as an embattled minority, isn't it? (I can think of any number of possible examples of that.)

This is why I think Chongo Chimp may yet become president, in fact. (No George Bush jokes, please!)

Wesley - That is a superbly well thought-out list of advice you posted. Right on the mark. If I were looking for anyone I would certainly keep all of it in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

I really, really don't understand the flowers thing. Why do women want to kill flowers?

Look, if you can get laid (without paying for it), do it. Sooner or later you will find that you are in a "long term relationship" - and then you won't get laid so much.

If you can't get laid (not an uncommon problem) that is not the same thing as failing to find a perfect relationship.

Now getting laid, that is another puzzle altogether. I mean look at that disgusting alleged comedian who asserts he is a "sex insect" - Brand or something. He looks revolting - but apparently gets it thrown at him.

I had a friend at university - looked like a podgy Marc Bolan without the washing, teeth like green breakwaters and never washed his hair (excapt whan he could score the shampoo off me) he was not actually at the uni - a dropout working as a milkman - a string of convictions for petty theft and car theft, and a fairly unconnected shithead. Girls threw themselves at him, many who looked a bit like "Honeybunch" (an underage sexqueen from one of the hippy mags of the era) but one of whom was "Miss [insert name of university]" and also got a first class degree a year or so later (and married a rich accountant a year or so after that).

Beats me.

And another friend of mine at the time - principal hobby driving cars so briskly they met the scenery - admittedly very attractive looking (used to get paid to pose for gay mags, when he was short of shit, lucky his colonel father who was also a lawyer never found out), but the sort of chap who would hold a girls's head down until he finished and then brag about it.

Beats me.

But settle for it if you can get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

I'm not surprised you don't get the flowers thing, Richard. You've barely come down out of the trees.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

Jeri says: "There aren't a lot of people I like who like me back"

Tell, it, sister. The more I get to know myself, and be satisfied with myself, the smaller that pool gets. It's a double-edged sword, isn't it? Those who really know me and still like me are either great friends who could never be romantic partners, married to super-smart women already, or flat-out gay.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

I don't quite follow that, Jeri & Dani. Seems to me that everybody I like at present likes me back. I do remember one person I liked in the early 70s who didn't seem like me for awhile for some reason I never knew...but then I got him a ticket to Dylan's 1974 show, and after that he decided he liked me after all, and we became good friends. He was crazy about Bob Dylan, and he was definitely not expecting me, of all people, to get him that ticket, but I got it for him precisely because I knew how much he loved Dylan. I could relate to that.

I remember some girl who didn't like me too, but it was just because I was entranced with her, and because of that I tended to get really nervous and say dumb, awkward things when she was around. I don't think she ever knew what the problem was... (sigh)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:58 PM

Hawk, I don't mean like like, but liiiiike. It's 'enjoy the company of' vs 'fancy'. I like like a number of folks, but I don't feel the urge to 'date' them. Like, I'm pretty sure you didn't cuddle with the guy after you got him tickets to the Dylan show, no matter how good it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:04 PM

Ah! Now I understand. (grin) The light has dawned. The groundhog has emerged to check for his shadow. Elvis has left the building.

There isn't anyone I liiiiike at the moment. At least not anyone even remotely realistic or within reach.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:22 PM

I really don't think dating in the Middle Ages was all that different. Of course the people were younger, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Diva
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

I think its difficult at any age and can't remember who said it earlier but i agree with the 'didn't like at 16......' I also agree with being happy in your own skin. As I am getting older I am less willing to compromise with things I don't want in my life. I'd much rather be on my own than be miserable with someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

I agree with you Diva, very well put. The key is being comfortable and happy in yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

My classic ratio:

Being together with someone you hate: 0/10
Being alone: 5/10
Being together with someone you love: 10/10

To avoid 0/10, many people will go for 5/10, rather than gamble for 10/10. (I've been in all three).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

You're absolutely right, Peter. I have settled for 5/10, because it appears to be the most likely and workable thing to do at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

Why do you want your voice at a lower pitch, VT? Are you aiming for the "Lauren Bacall" throaty purr...? ;-)

Yes!

I am not keen on cut flowers. Would rather have an interesting looking pebble or day out in a forest.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Well, that sounds very nice to me, VT.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Diva! Around 1999, I coined, "I would rather be lonely alone than with someone."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

I worded it this way in one song: "being lonely is a feeling better felt in solitude"

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Diva
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

Good phrase Gnu. One of our team at work is now been appointed matchmaker....after a very funny and very drunken works night out. I am held to be beyond hope because I'm too picky.....my 'list' is too complex LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:17 PM

Dating at any age is difficult. That's why I am always fascinated at people who manage to date while married. How the hell do you manage it?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"I would rather be lonely alone than with someone."

I used to say much the same thing. Loneliness when you are with someone sho just can;t be arsed is keener than loneliness alone. Kind of a constant reminder that you are lonely.

In fact I believe, if I had not met my current love that I would not feel lonely.   If I wasn't so blasted contented (I am like a pampered cat) in my current relationship, I'd rather relish the idea of solitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

No kidding, Sins! That's what I asked my first husband when I found out he'd been dating and screwing one of whom I thought was our best friends! Thankfully I was the only one he got preggers or it would have been a lot worse. As it was I got rid of him and none too soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:19 PM

Bastard! I will never understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM

A lot of men are like dogs. They'll mount anything that's available! This is because sex isn't a personal/emotional experience for them at all, it's sort of like getting hungry and scarfing down some junk food at the first available counter.

Not many women are like that. I've only known 2 such that I can recall. Most women are a bit more subtle and they are hoping for some genuine emotional connection...in other words "a relationship". The men I mentioned above don't even know what "a relationship" is...though they may have heard of it. ;-) They get nmarried too, God knows why! No imaginative forethought, I suppose...or maybe they're looking for someone to cook and houseclean?

Then you have the ones who regard sex as a competitive game, and they're always looking for the next "score" and bored with the last one. There are quite a few men like that, and a few women. Again, I've only known one woman who followed that form of behaviour. She was...strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:16 PM

Little Hawk, a very close friend of mine told me the same thing. Men screw because it is available and it is not grounds for throwing the idiot (my words) out. Women of a similar mind set screw their way up the food chain.
Sad but true.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 PM

SOME men, s'il vous plait.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

I have spent most of my evening writing, editing and rewriting a post to this thread, which is an excellent indication that I probably should not post.

As an aside to Dewey, what Peter T. has said at least twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM

Yes, Amos. I was simply quoting what was said to me. I know it is not true of all men and I suspect not even most. I found the concept sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

It is sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 01:47 PM

'Screw their way up the food chain'...uh.

Maybe in Juarez or someplace like that. Ick

Where the hell's Catspaw when you need him? (Probably off somewhere trying to convince someone he's necessary step.)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

I remember a woman who did that (screwed her way up the food chain). She was involved with a series of CEOs. It didn't seem to make her all that happy, but it kept her busy and entertained, I guess, and it helped pay the bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:50 AM

Found just the date for ya:

Middle aged woman in China who never married but is now ready to take the jump.

The local Chinese government has even offered to help her find an appropriate husband. (possible political contacts?)

Would-be bride, xxx, seeks first husband

She'll probably be out there surfing and hunting soon.

She's ready and rarin':

"I'm already (middle aged) and I still haven't got married," the Chongqing Commercial Times quoted her saying. "What will happen if I don't hurry up and find a husband?"

John

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

This is such a complex subject, there are few firm answers, because we are all individuals. However, there is one fairly firm fact. Men and women are very different when it comes to sex.Women need stability, a home, help in raising the kids, love, to be listened to and RESPECT.
Men are hard wired to hump any female that is willing.It is the same with the males of any mammalian species. Denying this is pointless. That's how nature made us, and it's not our fault! We are not dogs because we want to be dogs, it's in our genes.
Richard, you are partly right. Men are initially attracted to a nice ass, big boobs and a pretty face. That's fine for a short term relationship, but for the long run, give me a pleasing personality, WIT, high IQ, talent, educated and interested in many things besides her grand children. Old Maine proverb, "Kissing don't last. Cooking does."
If a happily married man has an encounter with a hot chick he will be torn between nature and conscience. Is this bit of dalliance worth the possible loss of my marriage?
Now, I must admit I am still a sucker for big boobs, (or small ones)but all the women I know are afraid of my wife so I don't get to have my conscience tested.

Wesley S right on the money!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

Kendall, I'm raising the bullshit flag here.

I think you have to admit there are elements of both those lists of desires in both sexes!

Men want some of those same things you attribute to women, and well... I'm speaking for myself here, ladies, so chime in anytime... but I'm sure there's a little on both your lists there that I PERSONALLY would like in a relationship.

Dani

PS: I'M not afraid of your wife, I just love her. It's about as effective : )

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:25 PM

Well I think there are a lot of shared colors, even if the males tend more one way and the females the other. It's the endless variations on the theme that are so faskinatin'.   The Mars-Venus divide looks much larger when you first approach it. Once you've learned to speak a little Venusian (or a little Martian) it gets to looking a good deal narrower.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:53 PM

Dani, I went a little overboard on purpose to get a reaction, and I did. hehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

If I didn't want the same things that most women want, I would still be single.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:59 PM

Any comments on anti-abortion advocates, Captain?
LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:09 AM

You have a very long memory, Sins.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

Well...NOW I see why this thread keeps popping back up - it has 'drifted' in interesting ways.
I will add to a couple of the above comments by noting that I have known both a man and a woman who "screwed (their) way up the food chain"...neither one was terribly happy. Both considered that life was more easily led by hopping in bed with someone,,,then seeing if they liked each other. (Then analyzing why they didn't)
I found it VERY difficult to explain to both of them that the very attitude that led them to this habit also made them kinda shallow and not able to adjust to the idea of 'sharing' in a relationship.

   It is my view that it IS much harder to find really compatible mates these days than in our grandparents days. One reason is that there are so many more directions to go and variables to consider now.

(insert detailed examples here)

Thus, the easiest way to find someone is to DO things... go out and find interesting hobbies, and get involved with other people who do the same things..but make the HOBBY the main point!... and do not automatically look at everyone you meet as a potential mate.... that will come if other chemistry is right.

Yes, for me it was folk music that let me find the 'right' one..and almost 30 years later, I am able to look back and realize how I did it...(I sure didn't have all this theory worked out then!)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM

I used to hear a friend of mine say, "When I was married to Ruth" or Sally, or Carol, finally I asked him "How many times have you been married"? He said "Five". I said, "Doesn't that tell you something"? he replied, "Yes, I just haven't found the right one yet." And he was serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:39 PM

It never occurred to him that he might not be mature enough to make a go of a successful marriage? Or that he is quite possibly chasing a rainbow?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:54 PM

Or simply that he is attracted to the wrong people?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

Actually, HE'S the wrong people.He should never marry anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Jeanie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

When I moved to a new town a few years ago, I was regularly chatted up by one such serial monogamist/relationshipist (good word, eh ?) Thankfully, it didn't take long for me to cotton on to this and see beyond his somewhat considerable charms. To misquote Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Ernest": 'To have one ex-wife is a misfortune. To have two ex-wives starts to look like carelessness.' Once it gets to more than this...well, the clues are there, as they say.

This man had 3 ex-wives, but that wasn't the end of it. He was recommending to me various music venues and theatre companies in the area, and when I asked him "Do you go there ?", the reply about each was "Oh no, I can't go to that one any more. One of my ex-wives/girlfriends goes and we parted under traumatic circumstances."

I have nothing to add to the general discussion about "middle age dating" ( except that I also thought of Chaucer when I first read the title)- except to say that having reached a certain age when the hormones no longer hold total sway, it is lovely just to get on with living life and enjoying what life brings, free from the urgency to find a mate.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Diva
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:03 AM

I wish Id used that logic with the last one....3 ex's...hmmmmmm Funny though, when speaking to his son recently, he mentioned his father couldn't stand competition and my pals ma said the same thing.......
I tell you I'm putting it out to committee I'm not safe to pick on my own

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:33 AM

I tried chasing women after my divorce and it was a total disaster. I stopped and they promptly started chasing me. It took a bit of practice to learn which ones to dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

"There is only one sin that the Gods will not forgive. If a woman calls a man to her bed, and he won't go. That, they will not forgive."

Zorba the Greek

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:08 PM

That must make me a good candidate. One marriage, 25 years. Thing is, like others have said, I like who I am now, know what I want and need, am pretty content by myself and not too inclined to want to compromise.

Maybe this has been talked about on the thread and I missed it, but I haven't seen any conversation about dating simply because it is fun, and not because one is looking for a significant romance or relationship. Flirting is fun. Good dinner conversation or recap of a movie or rafting trip is fun, and can be more fun and a little exciting when shared with a member of the opposite sex who one likes, respects, and finds attractive.

I'm two years out of a 25 year relationship and not at all interested in seeking another mate or even serious romance. But I would enjoy going out on dates for the fun and stimulation of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

All men talk too much; and they acknowledge too little.

The same can be said of women.

Men who are trained in Western cultural modalities have a deep yearning for admiration and a deep terror of being revealed as flawed or vulnerable. This makes it very very hard for them to discuss how they actually feel about things.

A smart woman learns to deal with this the same way a circus trainer manages a giant tiger. A little whip, a little chair-in-the-face, and a lot of encouragement and affection.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

Oops. A few posts went up while I was composing my last post. I was reflecting on Jeanie's and Diva's posts when I said I must be a good candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM

You are so right, flirting is a lot of fun. I don't do it myself, but I see others enjoying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM

Oh, right. Kendall doesn't flirt!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Diva
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

What Janie said!! Absolutely....sharing a nice meal and having a nice time......If they want somebody to wash their socks let em go somewhere else!!

Diva...managed 17 years

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:25 AM

"All men talk too much"

Maybe in California but not in Maine. Ayuh is considered a conversation.

I feel the same way Janie. I love to go out on a friendly "date". Prefer to share the expenses. Micca and I thoroughly enjoy each others company and there are no strings attached. But without exception, every date I have had in the past four years has been with a guy who was looking for sex - NOW.
LOL "I bought you a donut andcoffee. Now let's screw." very enticing.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

Now, Sins, It's not all the men,s fault! I could write a book of my experiences with aggressive women!Men are accustomed to being refused, women, not yet! They can get really hostile to a man who forgets what Zorba the Greek said.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:07 PM

"I bought you a donut and coffee. Now let's screw." very enticing."

They could at least have offered you a bacon and egg sandwich, Sins.

Yeesh! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

That was my thought exactly, Liz. Besides, I abhor donuts.

Captain, you bring out the animal in us. What can a girl do?????

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

All those 'male attitudes' start young and often reflect an inability to move BEYOND the impetuousity of youth.

I repost here my favorite joke:

""....So...there was a young man, oh...maybe 19 yrs old...and he got a summer job in a riding stable.And one day, there comes in to the stable a beautiful young girl...about his age!.Well, he was smitten--his hormones went wild...he could barely look at her without drooling...(you've seen the phenomenon)......So he goes to an older guy who's been working there forever and asks old Sam, "Who is that girl?...Wow...would I like to take her in back of the barn..!"........And old Sam says, "Oh, that's the daughter of one of the richest ranchers in the state...she comes in here almost every weekend to ride."............."Oh, man", says the kid,"I'd give anything to have her as a girlfriend....just look at the way she fills those riding pants..and the shirt too....boy would I like to get my hands on......." "Hey...take it easy", says Sam, "You've got the wrong attitude...she's a nice girl...you need to get to know her...who knows what might happen."...."Oh, sure", says the kid,"a nobody like me? All I'm ever gonna do is look at her and lust...!"oh, now..you just need a way to get acquainted",says Sam,"You're a nice guy, right?...good looking?, smart?...you just don't move in the same social circles as her...so you need a gimmick!"........"Oh, yeah?", says the kid, "like what?" "Well," says old Sam, "you work in her riding stable, you just need some way to go riding with her...look, try this---take her favorite horse and paint its hooves green....then when she comes in and asks for her horse, I'll send you with it......and she'll say, "Oh--my horse's hooves are green!"....and you say,"why so they are...I wonder how that happened?"...and she'll worry about it ...and you can suggest that you ride along with her...just to be sure nothing goes wrong! Then you get another horse and ride with her. Then you can talk...first about horses...then about her family, maybe...and you can tell her about your job and how you are working your way thru college. A couple of rides like that and she'll see what a good guy you are..and soon she'll be inviting you over to her place to meet her folks...pretty soon you'll be over there a lot, and you could end up going steady....and one of these days, maybe in a few months, romance will be blooming, and maybe you'll be snuggled up to that pretty girl somewhere, enjoying all those charming curves.." So, the kid does it...he paints her horses hooves green..and sure enough, next weekend she comes in and asks for her horse. So, Sam calls the kid and tells him,"Okay, here's your chance...just remember what I told you....when she worries about the green hooves, you offer to ride with her and strike up a conversation,,,and if you play your cards right, you'll be playing with HER in no time!" So, the kid leads the horse up, and the girl takes one look and says , "Oh, my goodness, my horse's hooves are GREEN!"......And the kid says, "They sure are!! Lets fuck!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Oh Bill, that is Goooooooooooooooooooooood!

I was reading it, realising the end was going to be short, as the words were getting less by the moment, but I didn't twig, not until I got there.....

(It's a girl thing)

I bet all you fellas were there around the middle of the joke, right?

Oh heck, I need a laughing smiley! In fact, rows of them... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

I heard it different, Bill. It was a carriage horse with blue balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM

Well, SINS, you know how it is---as ye reap, so ye shall sow and all that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

"Middle Age Dating"


          It's a lot like Carbon Dating withou the radioactivity!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM

Janie, I have a couple of follow-up thoughts to your remarks.

I've met a few men who wanted to date, and on a very casual basis, like JUST a shared meal and a good conversation, I enjoy it, but when the pressure is on for more I bow out.

I'm another 20-year veteran before the divorce, and I'm still raising kids. The prospect of adding another human who needs care and attention, even if it is a grown-up man, to my busy schedule doesn't interest me right now. Why? Because I'd lose a chunk of the time that I have for myself. I figure that until I'm ready to share that time, or the allocation shifts as my kids grow up and move out, I'm not ready for the attention one must invest in a relationship.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

SRS - that is not dating. It is hanging out with a friend or potential friend. Dating has a romantic or sexual purpose, or at least the possibility of such.

Have you not heard of Nicholas Monsarrat's epigram?

"No man meets a woman without measuring the sexual potential between them. It maybe zero, but he still measures it."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

Maggie, that is very well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

whatever, SINSULL...I've known that joke for 35 years, and I just polished it and strrreeeeeccchhed it for effect. It IS, in fact, my favorite joke, as it says more than any other I know about 'certain' mindsets... *grin*

(and thanks, Lizzie...that's the best reaction I've ever had to it)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM

Oh...and Lizzie... sadly, most men do NOT twig the ending halfway thru. They are usually waiting for some funny way in which the kid DOES get her!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:58 PM

Richard,

Because of the high incidence of STD's in general, and the risk of HIV in particular in present day society, I don't believe I would sleep with some one unless or until we presented each other with medically documented clean bills-of-health. And I don't believe I would trouble myself or trouble a potential sexual partner for that unless we were both looking for, (and thought we may have found,) something more than good company and the dance of flirtation.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

I've met tens of thousands of women regarding whom I did not measure the sexual potential (assuming there ever was any) between us. I've also met a fair number regarding whom I did in some way at least momentarily measure that potential in my mind. What I'm saying, Richard, is that while I think there's something to what you said, I wouldn't regard it as a universal rule that applies to all heterosexual men.

I see women who are undoubtedly attractive in a general sense...they have all the basic qualifications...but I feel no interest. I see others where I do feel an interest. Why? Well, various subtle aspects of appearance, visible personality, attitude, whatever...who knows?

I am saying that it's not enough that she just be female and also relatively good looking in whatever sense "good looking" means to me. That just makes her another person, a female person, it doesn't necessarily make her any kind of a sexual possibility in my mind.

I may be in a minority of males when it comes to that. I would gather so from what I've seen over the years. I think a great many men's attitude toward sex borders on complete idiocy, in that they are no more discriminating about whom they mount, given the chance, than a male dog would be in a similar situation. This indicates to me that they are not consciously engaging with another living human personality, they are engaging with an available receptacle. It might as well just be a robot in that case...except where would be the challenge, the sense of conquest, in the case of seducing a robot? Nowhere, unless the robot was programmed to be "hard to get", I suppose... Sheesh. I can see where that might be someone's marketing dream if it could only be made affordable. Rich jerks would be fascinated by fembots that won't "do it" with "just anyone". Think of the sense of ego enhancement when she finally gives in and lets you ravish her inner circuitry.... (grimace)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:51 PM

And well said, Little Hawk. You may be a minority, but I think (hope) you are one of a significant minority of mature men.

I think the same things can be said of many women.

Richard, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with the place from which you seem to be coming, assuming your conscious and unconscious awareness regarding women sees us as individual human beings and not as objects. But I can't tell from your comments. I'm not sure if that is because of my own cognitve filters based on my experiences with men, especially when I (and they) were much younger, because you do have a tendency to experience women first as sexual objects, or, most likely, some combination of the two.

I find myself thinking of agendas. If I were to encounter a man with the attitudes you express, and those attitudes were overt, fine. I'd know I wasn't interested, but that is not to say some other woman wouldn't be. What I distain is manipulation and dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: meself
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

It's not an "attitude"; it's a biological imperative. I may be mistaken, but I believe it's true even of our dissenting friend Little Hawk - even if it does not rise into his conscious mind (if I may spout some third-hand psychology) ...

In fact, I think LH illustrates the point when he says, he "see[s] women who are undoubtedly attractive in a general sense...they have all the basic qualifications...but I feel no interest." So, "the sexual potential ... maybe zero, but he still measures it."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM

I was going to say that about those words of LH too, meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

Ah, meself, well spotted; the gentleman doth protest overmuch. :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:13 PM

That may be, meself. In fact, it probably is. By middle age, however, one would hope the cerebral cortex has ascendency over the limbic system in terms of behavior. The biological imperative model doesn't hold as much water once one is beyond the normal reproductive years.

Dating may well have romantic or sexual possibilities. Tain't a thing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with a man or woman knowing the where and why of their boundaries at any given point in their lives.

There is a difference between possibility and expectation.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: meself
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:02 AM

Janie, I think you're reading too much into the quotation in question (again: "No man meets a woman without measuring the sexual potential between them. It maybe zero, but he still measures it.") In fact, the quotation is thoroughly consistent with your comment that "There is a difference between possibility and expectation." The quotation is simply suggesting that anytime a man meets a woman, he performs a quick assessment of her potential as a sexual partner. It does NOT mean that every man tries to bed every woman he meets.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:11 AM

The quotation is simply suggesting that anytime a man meets a woman, he performs a quick assessment of her potential as a sexual partner. It does NOT mean that every man tries to bed every woman he meets.

meself, I suspect that we all have our own personal templates, archetypes we recognize at a glance. But to call that recognition an assessment, as if all members of the opposite sex were quickly but equally examined, seems like a lot of work. Humans (like other mammals and who knows what else) recognize patterns, and those can be quite complex, including gender, dress, behavior, receptiveness, whatever. I suspect it is less a matter of all comers being treated to the same quick assessment as it is a matter of upon recognizing the type, a second glance is garnered, to see if this person fits the personal preference.

And since no one is going to exactly fit that type, there is a sliding scale at work. How close does this individual come to that desirable pattern, is it worth the attention and effort, assuming you're in a position to exert that effort? This whole process probably takes place in microseconds.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Finally ran away to Guam to get away from the memories, seasonal affective disorder, and the possibility of meeting one of my ex-girlfriends. Oh, and I was sick and tired of Maine winters.

Got here, met a very nice Japanese woman and married her. Life is good... again.

My advice? Move to Guam.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:58 AM

SRS, I learned long ago that it was far better to be with no one than with just anyone.

This just popped into my wandering mind:
"A boor is someone who robs you of your solitude, yet provides no company."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:06 AM

You're right, meself. I think I did read too much into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 10:20 AM

The man, or woman, who is meant for you, is the one who sees your soul.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:19 PM

It probably has a lot to do with how much one idealizes or romanticizes sexuality itself, Richard. Is it something sacred to you? Or is it just something enjoyable? Does it have deep personal meaning? Or is it simply an appetite that needs to express itself? This would vary a great deal from one person to another, wouldn't it? They would all certainly have the appetite, but they might find radically different levels of meaning in it.

I always idealized sexuality. I wanted to connect it with an idealized form of romantic "love" before experiencing it. That's just the way I happened to approach it. It might have to do with my basic nature...or it might have to do with whatever I was exposed to when I was a young child. Parents' attitudes toward such things can have quite an effect on a growing child's perceptions. So can books you read when you're first forming ideas about it, and I read a lot of books when I was a youngster. Most of the books I read presented romantic love in a very idealized form.

Now, if you had a dad who liked reading Playboy and Hustler, and those magazines were lying around the house when you were a kid, well, then you'd probably develop an earthier sense of what sense is about, right? It wouldn't nearly as romanticized in your mind.

There was nothing remotely like a Playboy magazine ever around in our house when I was a kid...

So I grew up with a very romantic set of ideas in my head...and I was looking for "true love" from day 1. That and that alone, period. It was basically a mental concept, a head trip. When you're looking for that you are not looking for just any generic physical female to satisfy a generic physical need...you're looking for someone "special"...and such people seemed, in my experience, to be rather few and far between.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

"It probably has a lot to do with how much one idealizes or romanticizes sexuality itself, Richard. Is it something sacred to you? Or is it just something enjoyable? Does it have deep personal meaning? Or is it simply an appetite that needs to express itself? This would vary a great deal from one person to another, wouldn't it? They would all certainly have the appetite, but they might find radically different levels of meaning in it."



Sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

Good for you, Lizzie. ;-) I think that a great many women feel that sexuality is a sacred thing, and I agree with that viewpoint.

But anyway, I was thinking about it some for the past couple of hours and I believe I have figured out what is the crux of the matter for me.

I need to know the person fairly well before I can know whether I want to make love to her, and it takes time to get to know a person. It takes a few meetings and a number of conversations before you can feel that you know someone. Till then they're just a stranger. I don't care how good looking a stranger is, I may find her quite attractive, but I definitely don't want to get physically intimate with her until I feel that I know her.

I want some mental intimacy and some emotional intimacy with a person prior to embarking on physical intimacy, because physical intimacy is damn serious business as far as I'm concerned. It's not like going to the movies or grabbing a quick bite at the restaurant. It's something that involves my entire being on the most personal level, my whole sense of my own worth, and I don't involve my entire being on the most personal level with people whom I don't even know yet.

It just would not make any sense to me to do that. It would be almost as weird to me as signing a business partnership with someone I don't even know yet.

Now, if I'd had a completely different life...if I'd been a famous music "star" or something, and I'd had a million casual offers from starstruck female fans over the years...well, maybe I'd have gotten a lot more casual about it. Hard to say. After all, it's not "nice" to say "no" to a woman, they say... I'd have to be there, and then I'd find out. ;-) Maybe in another lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

I,ve never thought of sex as sacred, but it can be heavenly with the right partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,hidden identity
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

Well I live alone, have a regular "date" plus a really good friend who adores me. An enviable situation on the face of it but not all plain sailing. Only by being scrupulously faithful and honest to one can I justify having the pleasant company of the other at times.
The side effect is that it makes the first more attentive - which is a mixed blessing and not what was intended.

I could not have done this as a teenager - only with the maturity of middle age is it do-able.

But as mother used to say "keep 'em mean to keep 'em keen"
and she was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:47 AM

Ok, I have to admit sometimes I flirt, and I really enjoy it. I even have a close friendship with my ex wife, and Jacqui is not threatened by any of the women I like. She has no reason to be worried. (Up until now) (snicker)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

She has no reason to be worried. (Up until now) (snicker)

Unlike you, Sir. The cellar awaits!

I agree that I, too, need to know a person before getting physical. In my much younger days I ended up in a one night stand and felt horrible for quite a while afterward.

I know that some people can go from one sexual partner to another without any qualms but, whilst I don't quite go so far as considering sex to be sacred (it tends to get a bit too sweaty and strenuous for that) it is as close physically as we will ever get to another person and, to my mind, there needs to be a matching closeness in non physical ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Where's Dewey? ("gone decimal" - sorry, librarian joke).
This thread was about helping him I thought, and it has continued for 20 days after he last contributed.
I used to play this trick on the "Cloggies", when I lived in the Netherlands: I'd start a conversation with two of them, in English, then I would walk away on some pretext a minute or two later. The two Dutch would invariably continue the discussion among themselves, still in English!
Methinks that's what's happened here.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: meself
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

I imagine that by the third post Dewey had seen the error of his ways, and even as we speak is throwing away his hard-earned cash on a bevy of painted ladies ...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

A bit of flirtation can definitely be fun...just on its own merits. I have no problem with that. It's a lot like any other kind of banter or play that people engage in...just kind of exercising your emotional muscles.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

Sacred? Rather a quaint idea. Not in that sort of sense. But lots of people pray for it.

Sex is good. Sex with love is better. Love without sex rots your soul and destroys your self-worth, whether it is because of your own inhibitions or embarrassment, or the refusal of another.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

"Love without sex rots your soul and destroys your self-worth, whether it is because of your own inhibitions or embarrassment, or the refusal of another." Richard Bridge

This brings up a recollection of a question I once asked a lover of mine. I said, Which would you choose: unlimited access to each other but with no sex or just one hour a week but which would include sex?

His choice wasn't mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:26 PM

Love without sex sometimes, say for medical reasons, has to be, and that is when the true test of Love comes into being, and a new richness comes in to replace that which is lost in sex.

Sex, without Love, on the other hand, (imo) is an empty place to be, a lonely place to be, a cold and aching place to be, a dishonest place to be, and perhaps a place that is often visited by those who have locked away their hearts.

I feel it doesn't bring happiness. It may bring 'satisfaction' for some, but that soon wears off I'd imagine...and down comes the loneliness once more.

To know that you are Loved, truly loved, above all others, above all else, and that glorious sex is a part of that, freely and frequently given and accepted, is the warmest place to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

It has always puzzled me that apparently it is possible for people to have sex without feeling love.

What are they paying attention to?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM

I can relate to what you're saying, Amos, but I think they are paying attention to a number of things, such as...

1. the enjoyable physical sensations
2. the sense of being "desirable" to someone else
3. in some cases, the feeling of conquest
4. excitement, risk, danger
5. thrills
6. enhanced view of their own status
7. even, in some cases, a form of sadistic domination
8. or, in others, a form of masochistic fantasizing
9. escape from boredom
10. "winning" a competitive event

All these things can arise in various people's sexual experiences, and all without love playing any part whatsoever. Or you might have love present...yet with some of the above aspects mixed in as well.

It's just that some people really want love with their sex, while to others it doesn't matter in the least.

I'll give you one example: I knew this young guy back in the late 70s, early 80s, and his trip was to seduce every female he ever met, by any means possible. He always tried, and he tried very hard (but without looking like he was trying hard). He was willing to do anything it took...and he had lots of money...so he would take the latest object of pursuit out to the finest restaurants, buy her flowers and other gifts, write her love notes, show her a great time, pretend he was in love with her, find out what she liked and admired and pretend he felt the same....he was quite an actor. He looked like a slimy little toad to me. (rather like the Austin Powers character in general appearance) I thought he was repulsive. But I have to admit that when it came to seducing women he was a master...because he was singleminded, focused, well-organized, enthusiastic, determined, and quite confident of the outcome. Well, this complete asshole never failed in his objective. He always bedded them. And then he promptly lost interest in them! Once or twice in the sack and it was done, they were "history"...so a long series of upset and astonished women discovered one by one that Prince Charming had a very short attention span indeed.

What was he after? Well, it certainly wasn't love. I think it was several of the things I had in the above list, I'm not sure in what order, though. ;-)

I also knew a female with basically the same attitude. She tried to seduce every man she ever met. The main difference between her and him was...she didn't really enjoy the sex much(!)...she just enjoyed "the game".

Other than that, by the way, she was fine. Basically a nice person to know as a friend. I don't know what her problem was regarding sex, but I'm sure it would have fascinated a Freudian analyst. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:24 PM

Well, as you know, Mudcat is a folk music forum, probably the best folk music forum in the world.
That being the case, I wanna testify-




Testify to the value of folk music as a way to improve your love life.


In 1992, I found myself unwillingly single and homeless at the age of 44. Not long after, I discovered the Sacramento Song Circle, and I've attended regularly every month since 1993. Later, I discovered Mudcat, and the San Francisco Folk Music Club, and the Folklore Society of Greater Washington - and all of these have given me lots of wonderful opportunities to sing with lots of wonderful women. I've developed minor to major crushes on dozens of them, and I've been able to enjoy their company without all the uncertainties and nervousnesses and complications of a sexual relationship. And in 2002, I married one of those wonderful women. And because I've kept singing, I still get to meet and love all those other wonderful women - and still have a terrific marriage.


So, if you wannna be happy for the rest of your life - SING!!!! The rest of it will all fall into place.

End of testimony.

Hallelujah!!!!

-Joe, a True Believer-

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:31 PM

If I say any more I will never get out of that damn cellar.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:04 PM

Bravo Joe! Bravo!

What strikes me about the two antedotes Little Hawk shared is the dishonesty and manipulation that it sounds like certainly the man, and perhaps the woman engage(d) in. You didn't say enough about her for me to opine.

Games are fun and healthy only when everyone playing knows the rules and readily joins the play after being fully informed.    What you describe is what I tend to think of as f*cking with some one else's head. Trying to capture a heart solely for the purpose of access to the body. Absolutely deceitful.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Oh, Joe, you make me so happy. You know you do.

Thanks for shining the light.

All this talk about sex and love reminds me of a song I'm working on (recently overheard, poached, re-worked):

"I'm a complicated woman, and I'll tell you the reason why
I'm a complicated woman, and I'll tell you the reason why
I am easy to please, Lord, but hard to satisfy."

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

Oops. LIttle Hawk, was referring to your antedotes, not Joe's. Maybe a clone can insert that.

---

Or maybe we should leave it. You look kinda cute with egg on your face, Janie.
...but I was nice and fixed it for you.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

A beautiful verse to a major blues song, Dani! I do hope you will finish it. And record it!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:15 PM

I don't consider sex sacred, but at 57 I know I am not interested in physical intimacy that is not an expression of genuine caring, concern and mutual respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:22 PM

Joni Mitchell's "Woman of Heart and Mind" keeps coming to mind. I think because it used to be a bit of an anthem to me from my late 20's through the 1st 10 years of my relationship with my husband. (met when I was 30. Married age 35.)

I am a woman of heart and mind
With time on her hands
No child to raise
You come to me like a little boy
And I give you my scorn and my praise
You think Im like your mother
Or another lover or your sister
Or the queen of our dreams
Or just another silly girl
When love makes a fool of me

After the rush when you come back down
Youre always disappointed
Nothing seems to keep you high
Drive your bargains
Push your papers
Win your medals
Fuck your strangers
Dont it leave you on the empty side
Im looking for affection and respect
A little passion
And you want stimulation-nothing more
Thats what I think
But you know Ill try to be there for you
When your spirits start to sink

All this talk about holiness now
It must be the start of the latest style
Is it all books and words
Or do you really feel it?
Do you really laugh?
Do you really care?
Do you really smile
When you smile?
You criticize and you flatter
You imitate the best
And the rest you memorize
You know the times you impress me most
Are the times when you dont try
When you dont even try

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:32 PM

That's "anecdote", Janie. ;-) The man in question was completely and utterly deceitful, no doubt about it. He was also rich, spoiled, constantly horny, and about as shallow as one of those pans you bake cookies on. (but he was clever)

The woman in question was not being deceitful, she was quite straightforward about it. She just wanted to get drunk and have casual sex, not convince the other person she was in love with him. Hardly that! ;-) There was nothing deceitful in her behaviour at all, but it had something to do with conquest...or proving her own attractiveness to herself...or something? I never quite figured out what was driving her when it came to that. She didn't do it for money. She didn't do it to get a boyfriend or a steady partner. She may have done it for company(?) She didn't seem to do it much for bodily pleasure either, as far as I can surmise. She did it, I think, to fulfill some kind of psychological need. I don't think she herself knew exactly why she did it, but she never wanted to be with any one guy for long....just the next guy. There was always the next guy.

Friendships, on the other hand, she was fine for friendships. She was a friend for me and another guy I knew for many years, and basically was a practical person whom you could rely on.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:05 PM

I guess an antedote is what immediately preceeds doting on some one?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

Yup, and an antidote is what is needed when it doesn't work out.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

What is he thinking of? Temperature and friction.

And an honest woman? The same.

So many people deceiving themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

Yuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

They're not necessarily deceiving themselves, Richard, they just have a number of differing concerns in mind, that's all. Everyone else isn't the same as you.

It's a unique case in every case. This is confirmed by the fact that different people react differently to the same basic incident (on a physical level). Yes, they all go through a basically very similar physical experience (which is what you appear to be talking about), but they interpret it differently in an emotional sense. How they interpret it is on the basis of belief and emotion and memory tied to emotion.

As you grow up, you absorb emotional impressions. They are what underlies your belief system. You will use your belief system to interpret the meaning of a physical experience.

Your belief system is clearly different from mine, for instance, so our interpretations of sex are quite different...although on a purely physical level, it's basically the same scenario for both of us. You are attracted to someone. You get an erection. You place it in slot "V" and move it back and forth until reaching orgasm. Big deal, eh? ;-) When put in merely physical terms, it sounds about as exciting as tightening a loose bolt on the snowblower...all just a matter of applied torque and friction, nothing more... ;-)

It's the non-physical aspects of sex, Richard, that raise the prosaic physical act itself (which any idiot can manage) into a truly sublime experience. (grin)

And you think I'm deceiving myself? Well, fine, mate. I think you're deceiving yourself too, but I prefer my way to yours, so I think I'll stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:49 PM

My exposure to all the wonderful artists on Mudcat seems to have stimulated my creativity inmany areas of my life, including spelling.

Let's make that "precedes."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:07 PM

Just saw your correction and note, Joe of the Big Blue Eyes;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:02 PM

Of course people have different concerns, aspirations, and so on. And the biggest sex organ in the body is the brain (well, I suppose the biggest erogonous zone might be the skin) - but those are all overlays and add-ons.

As a result - temperature and friction - plus the whatever, which might be romantic love, or it might be whatever your particular head game is - is going to seem preferable. We might be intelligent animals, or animals with moral sets, but we are still animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:28 PM

The biggest sex organ is unquestionably the brain, Richard. ;-)

Yes, we have animal bodies and an animal biological structure, but we also have a number of mental complexities that seem to set us apart from animals. We worry about the future and the past. We build all kinds of extraordinary things and invent new things. We keep track of our past history and concoct new philosophies. We read and write. That suggests to me that animals are our relatives, yes, but that we've moved into a somewhat different mode of existence from most of them, if not all of them. Why that is, is debatable, but we may not just be animals, we may be something more than animals by now.

But here's an interesting story about the part the head can play for animals too.

I once took care of many rabbits. The females and males were kept apart after reaching adulthood (although you can keep many females together in harmony, you can't with the males, they get into fights all the time). At any rate, the mature females and males got their own cages and when a female was willing you would put a male rabbit in her cage to breed and produce some more rabbits. This worked only if she was willing. If she wasn't, she just didn't cooperate and there was nothing he could do about it (though he might try his hardest). Well, we had one young female rabbit who was simply not willing for some reason. Not at any time, and that was unusual! The male rabbits found it unusual too, and they developed an obsession about her. They all wanted specially to be with that one female. She had become immeasureably desirable in their eyes...simply because she kept saying "no" and no one had succeeded with her yet. It was easy enough to tell from the way those male rabbits acted when taken anywhere near her cage that they were desperate to have sex with "the princess" rather than with the other females. Oh, they were definitely willing to have sex with the others any time...but they were all hoping for the holdout.

Now, isn't that a lot like human psychology? The one thing people always want is the one thing no one can get. Those rabbits were acting just like people do.

She finally gave in one day, and the male rabbit who was with her at the time just about had a heart attack. His lucky day, I guess. All the other males were pretty chagrined about the whole thing, I would presume....green with jealousy.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:38 PM

Why men don't write advice columns.

Dear Walter:

I hope you can help me here. The other day, I set off for work leaving my husband in the house watching the TV as usual. I hadn't gone more than a mile down the road when my engine conked out and the car shuddered to a halt. I walked back home to get my husband's help. When I got home I couldn't believe my eyes. He was in our bed with the lady who lives next door. I am 32, my husband is 34, and we have been married for twelve years. When I confronted him, he broke down and admitted that they had been having an affair for the past six months. I told him to stop or I would leave him. He was let go from his job six months ago and he says he has been feeling increasingly depressed and worthless. I love him very much, but ever since I gave him the ultimatum he has become increasingly distant. He won't go to counselling and I'm afraid I can't get through to him anymore.

Can you please help?
Sincerely, Sheila
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Sheila:

A car stalling after being driven a short distance can be caused by a variety of faults with the engine. Start by checking that there is no debris in the fuel line. If it is clear, check the vacuum pipes and hoses on the intake manifold and also check all grounding wires. If none of these approaches solves the problem, it could be that the fuel pump itself is faulty, causing low delivery pressure to the carburettor float chamber.

I hope this helps.
Walter _______________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Diva
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

Richard B...hormones...its hormones are to blame!!!!!!

Diva......putting head back below the paraphet

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:08 PM

Blame? Without them life would be rather dull, and dating pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

In fact, come to think of it, in one generation life could be extinct.

Or were you expecting a joke about "moan"?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:46 PM

Kendall, that was *very* funny. :0)

* * * * * * *


It fair incenses me that so many kids today are taught/told far more about 'sex' tan they are about 'love'. It's become, for so many of our young people, little more than a bodily function, to be had with anyone and everyone who's willing and if you can't recall their name in the morning, oh well...never mind...there'll be another along come evening. Gee Whizz! Where did we let go of self respect, gentleness, responsibility, spirituality...and Love?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

Damn! I think back to my sisters and I lying baking in the back yard, slathered in suntan lotion, waving away the bugs and waiting expectantly for the radio ditty to sound out "Time to turn - so you won't burn!) between Beachboy and Motown top 40's.

All that work for a tan, when sex would have accomplished the same thing in a fraction of the time.

And we thought we knew it all in the 60's ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:30 PM

What happened to all that Lizzie? In a word, equality. It has taken a nasty turn.

In schools they can't really teach love, but they damn well could teach responsibility and consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

What is he thinking of? Temperature and friction.
and
You get an erection. You place it in slot "V" and move it back and forth until reaching orgasm.

Both made me wonder whether we've been conned by the rationalists who, in schools, are responsible "that so many kids today are taught/told far more about 'sex' tan they are about 'love'."

Lizzie's concern is one I share but it seems that schools are required to teach (or at least subscribe to the notion that they're teaching) on the basis of rationality rather than of feelings and or emotions, so I doubt schools will change much or soon. And the above quote is the only one of LH's on this thread that I'd question. Even for blokes there is a clear distinction (in my experience) between ejaculation and orgasm; perhaps it was because of my emotional engagement that I was able to experience the difference.

From Richard's posts on the thread I get the impression of an ultra-rationalist, and I confess (and hope) I may be completely mistaken. He may be thinking, though, of the following.

A hand reaches out
to another.
A helping hand can
be strong, firm, gentle.

A tentative move
of one to another
can send
so many signals.

The first touch
can be electric
in its impact;
such power!

The world hangs
by a thread;
twisting, turning
on that touch.

Is the first move
rejected,
the other's hand
withdrawn?

Is the touch
received
with cool
reserve?

Is the touch
returned
with growing
warmth?

Hands gently
wrap,
entwine;
rapt.

Fingers interlocked
show intent,
however far away
in future,
of love's
consummation.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:48 AM

Nice piece of poetry.

I don't deny that emotions exist.

I do assert that sex is close to vitally important in the forming and maintenance of romantic attachments.

I also fear that many, mostly women, have been conditioned into a state of guilt about sexuality that does them no good at all (on balance).

Of course, at my age and girth (where the waistline ought to be) the subject matter of this thread is pretty well 100% a moot interest, but I'd really rather see people happy than screwed up by all the baggage, some set out above, and some hinted at above.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:12 AM

In the south sea islands before the whalers and missionaries invaded those tropical paradises crime was unknown. Rape was unknown, juvenile delinquency was unknown, as was jealousy.
So, what did our enlightened ancestors give them? Guilt, sexually transmitted diseases and poverty. Their culture was destroyed and they ended up like our native Americans.

So, humans and certain apes have the gift of enjoying sex anytime they wish. The apes don't have to worry about consequences. We do.Only those of us who care about what we do take responsibility for our actions. Sure, nature says, "Do it." Our civilization says "Do it, but take responsibility for the outcome including the offspring." Ah, there's the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

Hi Kids: It was cold here in Montreal last night. Friday. The chance came to be with my beautiful Mamacita, so I invited her over for an afternoon brunch. As the fondue began bubbling, we lit candles as the fireplace provided the atmosphere.

Garlic bread goes great with fondue and a salad. Highly recommended. The wine was called "MUST" with one of them thar "umblatas" ;0) over the "U". Fruity and tasty...

We ate like bears and spent the whole day and most of the evening in bed. Glorious rest and relaxation...

Then, as we're hibernating like bears in winter, she whispers in my ear, "Jello". I'm thinking, "Jello"? She says, "Yes(pronounced "Jess") , when I die, I want to come(kom) back(bik) as a little yellow(jello) bird(beeird)." Silly me, forgetting to translate her Spanish accent.

Anyways, she just phoned me now to give me a kiss through the phone and I wish we could spend another 10 hours together like yesterday....Why am I so lucky to have a beautiful woman, 13-14 years my junior with me? The hand of God my friends, the hand of God...

bob

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:40 AM

In the south sea islands before the whalers and missionaries invaded those tropical paradises crime was unknown. Rape was unknown, juvenile delinquency was unknown, as was jealousy.

Kendall, this is an Ur-style Garden of Eden description, held up as a pre-European world template, but it just isn't so. Don't labor under the impression that only the "civilized" world managed to mess things up. There are plenty of other cultures that managed to live and die without European help, and their sexual practices were no doubt part of it. The other view suggests that with our complexity and civilisation comes our social ills. (Europeans after The Enlightenment still need to get over themselves.)

We take opportunities to talk about life, including sex, when they arise in the context of life going on around us. Often times when watching films together subjects will come up that we can discuss (but not belabor, or you miss the point) germane subjects.

I wouldn't begin to rely on the schools for this. The entire state of Texas is still under the thrall of conservative religiously-oriented "leaders" who think that teaching youth about abstinence is effective sex education. I've always told my kids that their bodies are temples so take good care of them, and take good care of their hearts. So far, so good, in the serial relationship department. Stay friends with your former dates, if possible, it's better for both of you and good practice in general. Again, so far, so good.

As a divorced mother of two I went in to my ob/gyn a while back and arranged a new method of contraception. The nurse piped up with the line that "abstinence is best. . ." and I cut her off. "I know you're probably obligated to pronounce that nonsense, but I'm a 45-year-old woman and I'm not here to talk to you about abstaining from sex." She laughed and took care of my request. My point is, she shouldn't have even bothered with that nonsense, it's unrealistic and uninformative. Better to teach people how to choose good partners and how to protect themselves in a reasonable manner.

We pay for my college-age daughter's health care and her Rxs because we want to be sure that they are freely available and used. Openness to this topic is important, and you don't get there by being silly about it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

THere is nothing irrational about emotion.

Emotion often accompanies irrationality, and it is usually misplaced or mistimed emotion, relating to things that are not in the present.

That's irrational emotion. But the real present is rich with emotion that rings the chimes of the moment, rivers of it, totally appropriate, totally responsive to the now, and totally rational. That does not mean reduced to analytical propositions. It means relating to the real in the moment. It does not mean suppressed into equations or buried in restrained language. It means alive.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Rowan, I think you misconstrued the tone in which I wrote that line you quoted. Read the post again. I was making the same point you seem to wish to make...that the emotional connection between two people is what makes it all worthwhile. The physical aspects are prosaic....everyone experiences them...they are unremarkable in themselves...what is remarkable is the emotional (and spiritual) connections that are established in a genuinely caring relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

To put it another way: Sex is a brief, transitory experience. Love is something that can last a lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

Back to topic....

I"m not lonely...but I do sometimes get bored with my own company. However, I am extremely introverted (though not particularly shy,) and am so busy with work, raising a child, and taking care of chores that when I do have free time, I need it to recharge my own batteries.   Only then, sometimes I get bored with my own company.

Oh dear, what's a girl to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:24 PM

FFS - examine what you WANT to do, do it and stick two fingers up at the black magicinas who want to control you through guilt. But consider the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

uhhhhh ( or should that be duhhhhh.....) What does FFS stand for?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

For Flip's Sake

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

SRS, I'm curious. What is your source that contradicts my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:37 PM

Richard m'dear.... are you being irascible?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:15 PM

Your general thesis, LH, is one I totally agree with. Rather than misconstruing your post, I was responding to what I regard (in the context of the thread's topic) as a minor detail that is commonly believed; that, for men, ejaculation is equivalent to orgasm. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it; I wouldn't want it to divert the thread from discussion of M.A.D.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

"commonly believed; that, for men, ejaculation is equivalent to orgasm."
Truth be, I've been trying to figure out how you would make a distinction. So far as I can remember, anytime that I've ejaculated, I've felt like I had an orgasm; anytime that anything has thrown my responses off track, so that I haven't happened to ejaculate, I've felt that, while I may have had quite a bit of fun fooling around, I hadn't quite reached orgasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

All I can say, frogprince, is that there is a lot of variability in us biological entities. You might be one of the fortunate among us. Long may it be so.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:40 PM

OK. I get it. Middle Age Dating is primarily about sex;>)

Actually, what I get is that Middle Age Dating appears to be as complicated as adolescent dating or young adult dating.

Dating is, I guess, complicated, no matter one's age, because agendas are different, just like people are different.

For the time being, I'm tired of complexity.

Think I'll stay home and mess around on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:08 PM

Well, Jane-me-luv, I think the missing ingredient is that when understanding occurs, simplicity reigns.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:28 PM

A far cry from what the Shaker's had in mind, but certainly takes into account the universality of the' principle....
'Tis a gift to be simple
'Tis a gift to be free
'Tis a gift to come down where we ought to be
And when we find ourselves in a place just right,
'twill be in the valley of love and delight.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:57 PM

Kendall,

An MS in environmental philosophy. An examination of world views in a second MS (English Lit--my focus was American Indian literature and culture) and how we (Europeans and European Americans) view others and make assumptions about them.

When you start looking at a history of ideas, and how they grow or build, you see patterns emerge. There is a wish for places in the world with idyllic and possibly childlike (in their innocence) inhabitants. Those "Ur" cultures I mentioned. There is a pseudo-anthropological wish that perhaps in the South Pacific, or the Amazon jungles, or various isolated pockets of the world, there might be people who do not have the full range of "enlightened" emotions as the jaded Europeans. Rima in Green Mansions, for example. Children raised by wolves. And innocent cultures on tropical islands.

This in general turns out to be wrong. It's unfair, or calculated based on a different set of symbols. When Columbus "discovered" the new world, he said the people there were naive and childlike, and didn't believe in "God" because they hadn't built churches with spires to dot the horizon. The symbols of the new world transactions and emotions were unrecognizable to Columbus. That doesn't mean that many of the things he was looking for didn't exist. But I think those images of discovery and conquest from Columbus and many others persisted and became part of the cultural lore. Remember the chimps in the beginning of 2001, A Space Odyssey? All of those other cultural things like jealousy and murder and rape are there, if you watch what everyone is doing, and for long enough.

Not all cultures go through the same paradigm shifts, and if they do, not necessarily at the same time. Not everyone in the world was thinking along the lines of the European philosophers and scientists.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:03 AM

Yes, I was being irascible. I'm a grumpy old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:30 AM

Sounds like you need a Grumpy Ol' Woman to cheer you up, Richard! ;0)

I reckon we need to start up the MAD MUD Agency.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Jeanie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:11 AM

I agree with Janie on this one. From the brief forays I made into Middle Age Dating, I would say that it is at least as complicated as teenage/youthful dating: more so, because there are all of life's responsibilities which come into the picture: children, work, ageing parents to care for etc. etc. etc. I didn't consciously opt out of Middle Age Dating...circumstances just turned out that way and I can't say I particularly regret that, either. Being on my own and getting through all kinds of challenges successfully brought me to my senses that I don't *need* to have a partner in order to lead a happy and fulfilled life. Maybe that's the best lesson that Middle Age Dating can teach you.

I wonder what Elderly Twilight Home Dating could be like ? Pretty good fun, I would guess !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:20 AM

I'm sure you meant that well, Lizzie, but I'm not at all sure that I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

Definitely meant well, Richard, and written with a naughty chuckle. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

Sorry SRS, I am not convinced.You mentioned the Chimps in 2001 a space odyssey they were not real. The Bonobo chimps of Africa are quite real. They engage in sex all the time. They use it to keep the peace (No pun intended) to ease tension and jealousy. Everything I have ever read about the islands of the south sea has said much the same thing. Simplicity reigned.Then, along came the poxed sailors and the guilt ridden missionaries. There went the neighborhood.

"When understanding occurs, simplicity reigns." Amos, that is a powerful quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Denizens of this thread might want to read this Sunday's New York Times magazine (I'm sure it will be posted, but I can't find it on their site for some reason) on the scientific study of female desire. It is sure to be controversial, involving as it does research into women's fantasies about rape and sex with strangers -- and a whole lot of other stuff involving wires and orgasmatrons (Woody Allen jargon for testing).   It involves Canadian researchers, so you need to be careful!!!!!!!!

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

I used 2001 as a popular culture illustration, but if you look at Jane Goodall's work, you will recall that she has documented dissent and murder amongst the chimps she studied for years. The bonobo are different, and they are a "sex positive" species that a lot of humans are uncomfortable extending to human behavior. As much as you'd like to compare Polynesians to bonobos, they are humans, not child-like chimp-humans. And as humans, I think you'll find a social complexity that IS present, but simply didn't have the same territorial or cultural markers that the early Europeans would have been looking for.

They may still have gotten along a lot better in their place than Europeans got along in their own; there may have been an entirely different social structure based less on territory and more on a unique origin story and belief system that taught the population how to get along in their environment. This has been seen in American Indian cultures, where religion dedicated this as varied as government and marriage to what and when to plant and when and what to hunt.

That tends (this isn't an absolute) to be one of the benefits of religions growing in a specific (autochthonous) way--a culture learns to balance their impact on the land by practicing rituals that moderate the impact. This can extend to population growth and sexual practices, I am sure. If you're talking about isolated populations where discord could wipe out the population (think Easter Island) with no new blood available to rebuild, then encouraging behaviors that lessen stress and strife is a benefit. This is a general statement, I won't try to offer more specific examples here, but there have been quite a few anthropologists in the field to document some of this. In general, though, I think most populations pack the usual social ills in their cultural quivers; they just decorate them with different feathers.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

We really need Chongo's input here...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:13 PM

most populations pack the usual social ills in their cultural quivers; they just decorate them with different feathers.

If I substitute "ills" with "entities" I might get away with asking some questions I think might be relevant.

To me, a member of a particular generation and in Oz, the word "dating" seems to have particularly US meanings attached to it Richard gave his definition as "Dating" is part of a formalised or semi-formalised courtship ritual in which the objectives are either sexual congress or matrimony, sometimes both but I think Lizzie's riposte, while succinct, let the discussion get away with glossing the concept such that "dating" is only one of (possibly) several rituals describable as "courtship". It seems the word "dating", as used in the US carries a connotation of contingent sexual activity.

Is there still a separate meaning associated with "stepping out with ..." or with "courting"?

I might be old-fashioned but I ask because I recall different phrases used in Oz for different types of relationships. If a friend who was female asked you to accompany her to an event, purely as a male companion and with no sexual/emotional intent, you could be described as "squiring her". If she and you were "great mates" who spent a lot of time together with no sexual/emotional intent you could be described as "knocking around together" or even "going out together".

The latter phrase could also be applied to couples who were happily exploring the social and emotional aspects of a relationship but had no particularly formed sexual intent, at least so far. I associate this behaviour as akin to "stepping out" in the US sense and it overlaps (in my understanding) with how I have used the word "courting". You can tell I'm part of the 'ante-pill' generation, if not the 'anti-pill' one.

When I've described the formation of the relationship with the mother of my daughters I've always described it as "courting", as we were happily exploring the social and emotional aspects of a relationship but had no particularly formed sexual intent, at least for the first few months. To me, the term "dating" didn't seem to apply until after our relationship had been consummated; even then we tended to describe our 'coupleness' as "yes, we're an item."

And the rituals by which one establishes any of the above seem to have changed quite a lot, over the years; even a casual invitation for morning coffee (11am, not 6am) can be regarded as an unwelcomed proposition, I've heard.

Just wondering.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: meself
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:53 PM

I was born in the 'fifties, and have lived all my life in Canada. The term 'courting' had become obsolete by the time my 'peer-group' was of an age to be speaking of such things, although it was used occasionally among my parents' generation, but more in reference to their own younger days. Other than that, the word 'courting' continues to have a life in academic parlance. 'Squiring' and 'stepping out' are terms that would only be used with humorous intent, the speaker deliberately being 'old-fashioned' (sorry!). As teenagers, we would talk of couples 'going around together' or 'going out'. Into our twenties, 'going out (together)' was the preferred term. We didn't usually speak of couples 'dating'. If someone talked about 'going out on a date', it was generally understood that this was a somewhat formal courtship event, consistent with Richard's definition, usually involving a prospective partner outside of the normal bunch of ne'er-do-wells with whom one bashed about. But it was very much something that implied that the consummation, if it were to occur at all, would take place some time in the vague future. As my generation here has come into middle age, the terms 'date' and 'dating' have been making a comeback, as have the activities themselves.

Curiously, among the twenty-somethings now, 'dating' has become a euphemism for involvement in an ongoing sexual relationship. Among that age-group, 'we started dating in January' can very well mean 'we commenced having on-going sexual relations in January'. Well, maybe this usage pre-dates today's twenty-somethings; I recall many years ago being asked by a street prostitute if I wanted 'a date'.

As for a couple being an 'item', this is an expression which has been current throughout my lifetime, but never the preferred expression. Frequently used only after the speaker has been unable to think of another way of putting it, as in "They've become [brief pause] an item."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: Janie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:27 AM

I was born in 1951 and have lived all of my life in the States. For me, (and I think this is still pretty common usage) "dating" some one usually, though not always, refers to seeing someone fairly exclusively, but does not indicate the depth of the emotional involvement.   It does not necessarily connote anything at all regarding a present or prospective sexual relationship, but does imply a romantic and/or sexual interest between the couple. The same could be said of "Going out" with someone. "Courting" or being an "item" definitely would indicate a serious level of emotional involvement and commitment.   

While one might say they are going out on a date with some one they are dating or courting, going out on a date might also indicate a much more casual or exploratory planned outing with someone that, at a minimum, includes the possiblity of physical attraction.

Accompanying a platonic friend to a social event would not be called a date, or "going out with" in the era and area where I grew up. I never quite knew what "squiring" meant, but what a great term!

Subject: RE: BS: Middle Age Dating
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:05 AM

I was born in 1934 and I have not lived my whole life yet.