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Advice to folk web sites creators
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Girl Friday Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM Thanks, all points welcome. I can deal with them easy enough. I do sympathise with you guys who still use dial-up. I hasd it and got tired of the sl;owness, and the bills. I thought that link underlining was in colour, mine's in black and white, but I'll remove it anyway. Thanks for advice Lester. BTW will sort out the link... it worked when I tried it. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Lester Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM ps The link to the Fox and Hounds Folk Club's broken. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Lester Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM Girl Friday In the spirit of support and advice amongst an amount of things I would improve are: the image of Ben Little weighs in at ~1.5Mbytes OK if you have broadband but a bit excessive otherwise. the Orpington Folk Club headline is not centred the use of underline leads to confusion with what is a link and what isn't |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Girl Friday Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM I hope that my website passes muster. I use Bravenet. It's free, and you can have up to 5. I tried to post with a link to both but the posting failed. I'll put a link to Orpington Friday Folk, and you can pick up Fox And Hounds from it's Header. Orpington Friday Folk |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM Thanks, Villan! I'll save that link for later and give it a good looking over. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM Spleen Have a read of this for starters. Nice easy styel. Explains all the issues and what you need to do. http://www.4creatingawebsite.com/?=gg |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: treewind Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:47 AM Great advice from Jim Dixon - all of it. The points about relevant material in the <TITLE> text is not only handy for when you're viewing the page - it also contributes to good search engine visibility and ranking, and so does sensible text in headings using <H1> and <H2> tags. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM So can anyone recommend a good, easy-to-understand on-line guide to creating your own website? That won't bamboozle the technologically challenged? That doesn't try to give you bells and whistles when you're still trying to struggle into your underpants, so as to speak? That teaches you how to do it rather than does it for you? Any suggestions gratefully recieved... |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:40 AM Michael Curry has just sent me the theme tune to The Great Escape in D as a pdf. Anyone want a copy? Valmai |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: TheSnail Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM "Do you think Florence is a virgin?" See you tonight, Will. Still trying to work out how to dig a tunnel from one upstairs room to another. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM Time for bed said Zebedee LOL |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM Age taketh it's toll - should have been "Bryan", not "Brian"... |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM Excellent Brian - love the elephant! See you tonight on the Great Escape route... |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM Looks good to me Snail. Opens quickly esay to use. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: TheSnail Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:25 AM I've just launched the modified website for Lewes Saturday Folk Club, formerly The Lewes Arms Folk Club. All comments and suggestions gratefully received. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:17 AM I have created a link on the homepage to a black and white printable version with a link back to teh homepage. Quick & dirty, but I think it does the job. Let me know if it doesn't. Thanks Max for the feedback Les |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:03 AM Thats a good one Max and of course very important. I will create a print version of the homepage. Thanks Max for letting me know. I don't know, the things you overlook. However thats the beauty of this thread, becuase you get feedback from different people in the real world so to speak. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Max Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM One drawback Villan is that if you print your page (backgrounds don't print by default), the white text isn't there at all and the yellow and orange is almost invisible. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM I have never created or maintained a web site, so some of the technical issues described in this thread are Greek to me, but I have a lot of experience as a reader of web sites. Here are some results of my observations: I don't think it's necessary for every page to link to every other page, but every page should at least have an obvious link to the home page. If your web site has lots of pages—too many to list on the home page—try organizing them hierarchically. Then make it easy to move up and down in the hierarchy. If a person might logically want to see a series of pages in a certain predetermined order, use "next" and "previous" links in addition to "up" and "down" links. Every page should have a meaningful title. (For example the title of this page is "Advice to folk web sites creators" and, in HTML, that is "<TITLE>Advice to folk web sites creators</TITLE>"). This title appears on the tab and it will, by default, appear in my bookmarks list if I choose to bookmark this page. If your name is Joe Blow, your pages could be titled "Joe Blow's home page", "Joe Blow's albums", "Joe Blow's favorite venues", etc. Every link should be labeled with the title of the page it links to, and please be consistent with your terminology. (Don't call it "discography" in one place and "albums" in another place.) Be conscious of how long it takes to download a page. It's easy to be fooled about this. If you visit a certain web site frequently, chances are you already have its graphics in your browser's cache. That makes it much faster for you to view the page than for other people who are viewing it for the first time. To get a better idea, clear out your cache and then explore the web site. And remember, some people have slower connections than you do. This means you should minimize graphics on most pages. If you have lots of photographs you want to show off, fine, but only show them to people who want to see them. Segregate them on different pages from your essential information. Same with music: Don't play music automatically. Play it only for people who have clicked a button indicating they want to hear it. Be sure your home page gives all applicable contact information: contact persons' full names, phone numbers, fax numbers, email address, street address, and complete mailing address. Don't assume an email address is sufficient; someone may want to send you something tangible (such as a check!). Don't assume a PO Box is sufficient; someone may want to send you a package by UPS or FedEx—they will need a street address. Lists should be in some obvious order: alphabetically or by date. Design your site for the average viewer. Assume that people with unusual vision problems can, and probably will, set their browsers to override your choices of font styles, font sizes, and colors, if necessary. (See, for example, Internet Explorer accessibility options.) You might want to experiment to see what happens if a viewer chooses a font size that is larger than the default. You might find that some text is too large for the space you have allotted to it, and part of it is invisible. I find that some text is enlarged and some is not. I don't know why—maybe you can figure it out. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Tootler Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM Oops- we've all been fooled. All those recorders are one big image, and the links are done as an image map. I wouldn't have done it that way. Repeating one small image would have made a quicker page load as I said above, and easier HTML to boot. I have tried both ways and I find I prefer the image map. Quite a lot of software will create the map together with the appropriate html. I use Serif PhotoPlus, but I notice Open Office will do it. All you need to do then is customise the image map tag to your site and insert the links. I maintain a template for the site which makes it easy to create a new page with the menus and images already in place. I agree the image itself is larger than that of a single recorder, but the recorder image map is only 64K which is not exactly large. At the end of the day, it is a matter of personal preference. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Tootler Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM I agree, it isn't easy to find. Usually I get there more by luck than good judgment. I go the the Caedmon folk music classes on a Tuesday evening. They have stopped putting information on the general website. Instead they provide a link to a pdf of their participation brochure which is something like a 6.5 MB download. Even on broadband it means a considerable wait. If you're on dialup, forget it. Then once you have waited for it to download you have to scroll through all the brochure to find all the information. Why they can't have this information on a standard web page beats me. We have moaned to them about it, but they take no notice. Sue, the administrator is learning whistle so we bend her ear about it, but they take no notice. I'm not blaming Sue, who does her best. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Suegorgeous Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM Thanks folkandroots - I should've said the Summer School, but I found that from your link. Anyone know when the 2009 summer school brochure will be online? |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: folkandroots Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:08 PM http://www.thesagegateshead.org/folkworks/index.aspx Although it isnt easy to find from the Sage site is it... |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Suegorgeous Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM Tootler Yeh, that is so annoying about The Sage - the times I've gone looking for Folkworks on Sage and just gave up, and only found it by Googling it - or even ringing them up to ask where it is! Does anyone have a link to the Folkworks page(s)? and I'll make sure I bookmark it! Thanks Sue |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: treewind Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM Oops- we've all been fooled. All those recorders are one big image, and the links are done as an image map. I wouldn't have done it that way. Repeating one small image would have made a quicker page load as I said above, and easier HTML to boot. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: treewind Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM "takes a slightly annoying amount of time to load all of the duplicates." No it doesn't - once one is downloaded that same copy is used for all of them, as long as it's the identical image URL. Anahata |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Tootler Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM The last two posts show that you can't please them all :-} The images were sized to keep them compact and in total the images are about 120K which is not large. On my broadband connection it takes the page about a second to load. Obviously making the whole thing text only would make it much faster loading, but using images helps to give the site a distinctive identity and, hopefully, an attractive appearance. At the end of the day, it is about compromise between a variety of often conflicting factors: Speed of loading, ease of navigation, quality of information and attractive appearance being among them. I have seen some pretty dire commercial websites where "corporate image" dominates all other factors. The Sage, Gateshead is one such. Trying to find hard information about their activities apart from concerts can be a real pain - and they have some excellent workshops and the like, if you can find them. Most of the feedback I have had on the Cleveland Recorder Society website has been positive, btw. Geoff |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Jeri Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:12 AM Don't worry about a higher res shot unless the photo matters. As an icon, it doesn't matter so much and already takes a slightly annoying amount of time to load all of the duplicates. Personally, if it's not simple and fast up front, I usually don't manage to load the whole page before clicking out. I don't think I'm the only one without the patience to wait for somebody else's 'ya-just-gotta-see-this' stuff to load. Your page is no good unless people load it. People have short attention spans. You may think it's all about what you have to present. In reality, it's all about what your site visitors want to see. If your page works, you've successfully compromised. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Amos Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM Tootler: I would recomemnd getting a higher res shot of a recorder to use as your button/icon/divider etc. The present one looks blurry which is a bit distracting. A |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM Good advice, Geoff. I usually create server-side (.shtml) web pages with CSS sheets for my mass pages. I actually haven't done this with the folk listings pages, as they're quite simple, but I may convert them at a later date. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Tootler Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM There are some things I would add to Will's list that came from advice I was given when I was working full time (I used to maintain a site with all my teaching notes at the University where I worked)
Do learn html and how to use cascading style sheets (CSS). These, once mastered, make it much easier to maintain a clear, well laid out website as well as making for economy in use of resources. Not a folk music site, but I maintain a web site for the local recorder society http://www.clevelandsrp.org.uk/ where I try to follow these principles. Geoff |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Ian Hendrie Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:24 AM One of the things which annoys me is the failure of organisers of events to state the YEAR. As some pages seem to hang around in the ether for ever they can become quite misleading. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM :-) |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: VirginiaTam Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:45 AM I want to say thanks to Will for the work he is doing on this and the other project (Kent Clubs thread) And to The Villan for posting link to Faldingworth site. Through it I discovered the online assistance for singers. Serendipitous that. Yay! |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM Thanks Will |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM Les - the Faldingworth site looks very good to me. It has everything clearly set out - just the sort of thing that I would appreciate if I was trawling through Lincolnshire folk locations! Here's one example of a difficult list to read: Folk London (Could I stress that the editor of the Folk London site can't maintain it through sickness at the moment, and it is being very kindly maintained by Days Of Sail, who are keeping the original format. A very kind gesture on their part). Having said that, I had to copy and paste the whole text from the Folk London page into a Word file to read it. Or perhaps it's just my old eyes! |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:20 AM I have changed my website a bit (especially the front page). Is it a bit better now? http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/ |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM I think the links are right for braille - the text that comes up when you hover over the link needs to describe what the link is for - that way the users of braille readers will be told where the link goes. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:49 AM Oh by the way, Richard and Mo, thanks for your input. It is appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM Richard Ian Fyvie one is a singaround. That makes it a lot different. I agree about font styles. Wouldn't know in my wildest dreams or time and effort how to deal with Braille. Les |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:13 AM Villan, I think it's the range of typefaces and sizes against a dark background. The accessibility people at the places I teach tell me that those who suffer from dyslexia can "skip" information that is in a different typeface, but I am not dyslexic so have no personal view. Also there seems to be a lot of information behind tab buttons - how well does that work with braille readers? Will's, the one he did for Ian Fyvie, gives waht is needed in an instant. Faldingworth one needs to work at. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:00 AM Very interesting thread, and for sure you cannot get it completely right for everybody. I used to have somebody else do my webpage, but the problems involved in getting quick changes made became unworkable. So I created my own and can make changes as quick and as often as I feel fit. Mo The Caller I appreciate what you are saying. However, whilst you may have a problem with a dark plain background and white text etc, there are many people who struggle with light backgrounds. Basically, you please one and upset another. Its a hard one to call Mo. For people who are Dyslexic, there is a big problem whatever colour you use as a background. However over time the dark blue background has probably been the best one for a lot of dyslexic's. I have tested people with this problem, using software that lets the user decide what colours are best for them. Most of the time it has usually been a darker backround with light coloured text. However, I do not use pattened or picture backgrounds as that makes it difficult to read text at times, especially when the pattern is the same colour as the text. The other thing that can cause problems, is the PC itself and its abilty to deal with windows colours etc. What seems fine on one screen can be aweful on another. Richard, is the problem with Faldingworth Live to do with too much info, when you are scanning down for who is on? or something else? I am interested in that and if you have a valid point, I would only be too glad to make changes accordingly. One of the issues I have is that locals, who are not folkies, have no idea who the performers are, so I go to lengths to help them know the sort of performer(s) who is on. For people who are folkies, thats not a problem as they probably know the artist. I used to create a seperate page for each evening and have a front page summary with links to each event. I stopped doing that as i was finishing up with too many pages. I think what I might do is have a summary of each event with a link to more detail, lower down on the same page, so that when an event is over, I can quickly delete it. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:36 PM one performer who did not get a gig at my club had essential info in black type over pictures. sandra ps. Will, I like your mock up, good clear info, it's a place I'd love to visit. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM Hi Mo - well, I wouldn't call my mock-up fancy - it's pretty old-fashioned really. And I'm told that a slightly tinted background is easier on the eye than plain white... but it's all in the eye of the beholder. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:03 PM Two? I can see Faldingworth being a bit tricky to assimilate at speed, but the Fyvie mockup seems exemplary. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Mo the caller Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:51 PM The two sites linked in the posts above illustrate my main grouse. Some people forget that old fudy-dudies like me have problems with small print on dark or patterned backgrounds. The 'mock-up' site has clear type on a pale background, the other (white on a black background) I just couldn't be bothered to struggle with. You may be trying to attract youth with fancy design, but don't forget your core audience. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM I forgot to add that, should any club organiser who doesn't have a web page want something cheap and cheerful along the lines of the example above, I'm happy to create a page and host it on my section of the "mjra.net" domain. PM me with an email address, or email me (email address can be got from: http://www.mjra.net/WillFly/email.shtml |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM I've very quickly mocked up a demo page for Ian Fyvie's Cellarfolk Song Club in Brighton - here. (I've emailed Ian to say I've done this, but he hasn't approved it yet...!). It's not intended to be a definitive page for this club - just a little mock-up to demonstrate what I mean by simplicity and plain, accurate information. This could obviously be expanded on much more adequately but, even in this simplistic version, you can see that the main elements of the information describing the club are in place. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Suegorgeous Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM Hear, hear, Will! and it doesn't just apply to folk sites - so many sites aren't designed from the reader's perspective - missing basic info, no links or non-working links. Also - it's crucial not just to design a good site, but to keep it updated. Etc etc!! Which is why it's so lovely to come across a simple well-designed user-friendly site.... I thought the Windmill site was one of the better ones. :) |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM It seems that many of the assemblers of data have not bothered to do the essential work that Will is doing - ringing each organiser and making sure the details are up to date. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM Phew Thanks Will :-) I have started to introduce links to myspace accounts of each performer, so people can listen and decide if they like the style of the music. LOL, wouldn't be much use to put the bus routes on for Faldingworth Live as it is in a rural situation. So taxi is the thing if without car, or scrounge a lift. I have a contact info button at the top, which has all the info about where it is. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: folkandroots Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:23 PM Just to agree generally with Will, I can't remember whether it particularly applies to clubs in the South East but there are certainly some that neglect to put the full address of the venue in an obvious place or include it all (now that would have been fair enough in days gone by for licensing reasons etc but these days I assume its because they assume any potential visitors would know), the other neglect I find is failing to link to forthcoming artists or include a description which would (imo) potentially encourage new visitors. Personally I think the Ram Folk Clubs site is a very good model and even includes very detailed directions including ones for non car drivers (we do exist) |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM Hi Les - looks pretty good to me! All the info you could want and obviously up to date. |
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Subject: RE: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Rasener Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM Does this sort of pass the test Will? http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/ Les |
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Subject: Advice to folk web sites creators From: Will Fly Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:59 AM After having spent several hours trawling through page after page of website data relating to folk venues in the south-east of England, (and having created several sets of web pages of different sorts myself over the years) I have some recommendations which I'd like to pass on to those who develop web pages for folk music sites, or those who are responsible for updating them. 1. It's sometimes difficult, if not impossible, to gauge the accuracy and currency of web pages if they don't have a "last updated" date on them. Even if a page has not actually changed for some months, it's worth editing a "last updated" date when the page has last been checked. 2. It's worth splitting a complex club site up into simple, separate and clearly labelled pages, such as: "home", "contacts", "dates/diary", etc. Sounds obvious, but some club sites are either impenetrable or lacking in all but the most basic info. 3. Keep pages clear and simple in their design. Some clubs make use of specialist web developers. The problem with these can be that they're sometimes more intent on being clever than straightforward. Fancy graphics, backgrounds and buttons can be overdone and mask essential information. 4. Long lists with no spaces in between are very difficult to read. Linked pages can often be more effective. Many club sites are excellent, I have to say. One site - can't remember which at the moment - has clear pages setting out all the basic info, plus pages on the club's performing and booking policy, a "what is folk music" page for the uninitiated, etc. A model of its kind. It's worth remembering that such pages can be the club's most important face to the world... |
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