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BS: Israel Moves in.

Folkiedave 03 Jan 09 - 03:05 PM
bobad 03 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM
Leadfingers 03 Jan 09 - 05:00 PM
John MacKenzie 03 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM
Little Hawk 03 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM
Linda Kelly 03 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM
MarkS 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM
Lox 03 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM
gnu 03 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM
katlaughing 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM
skarpi 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
pdq 03 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM
gnu 03 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Alan 03 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM
Folkiedave 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM
kendall 03 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM
Ed T 03 Jan 09 - 08:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jan 09 - 08:26 PM
skarpi 03 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM
artbrooks 03 Jan 09 - 09:05 PM
Riginslinger 03 Jan 09 - 09:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 04 Jan 09 - 12:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 04:35 AM
polaitaly 04 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,lox 04 Jan 09 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,lox 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jan 09 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jan 09 - 07:01 AM
Folkiedave 04 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM
akenaton 04 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 09:07 AM
Riginslinger 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM
goatfell 04 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 11:35 AM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM
number 6 04 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM
CarolC 04 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM
goatfell 04 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM
CarolC 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM
kendall 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Fife 04 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM
akenaton 04 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 04 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM
Ed T 04 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM
Ed T 04 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM
Amos 04 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM
Sleepy Rosie 04 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Fife 04 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM
artbrooks 04 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM
bubblyrat 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM
CarolC 04 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 04 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM
VirginiaTam 04 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Fife 04 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM
skipy 04 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM
artbrooks 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM
Riginslinger 04 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM
bobad 04 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Alan 04 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM
Haruo 04 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM
GUEST 04 Jan 09 - 08:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM
bobad 04 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Arnie 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM
Ed T 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM
Ed T 05 Jan 09 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Jan 09 - 06:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Ruth Bibby 05 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM
Haruo 05 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM
GUEST 05 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Ruth Bibby 05 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM
number 6 05 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,GUEST 1 05 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM
Greg F. 05 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM
number 6 05 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM
Haruo 05 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM
Richard Bridge 05 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Arnie 05 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Alan 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM
ard mhacha 05 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM
heric 05 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM
CarolC 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM
heric 05 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM
Haruo 05 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM
artbrooks 05 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM
heric 05 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM
JedMarum 05 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM
number 6 05 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM
artbrooks 05 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM
number 6 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM
pdq 05 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 05 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM
CarolC 05 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 05 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM
JedMarum 05 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM
kendall 05 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM
number 6 05 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Alan 06 Jan 09 - 03:51 AM
C. Ham 06 Jan 09 - 07:22 AM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 08:39 AM
Wolfgang 06 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM
pdq 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,beardebruce 06 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM
kendall 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM
kendall 06 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM
pdq 06 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM
Amos 06 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM
bobad 06 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM
artbrooks 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM
C. Ham 06 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM
artbrooks 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM
Amos 06 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM
pdq 06 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 06 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,beqardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 06 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM
Gervase 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM
Folkiedave 06 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM
akenaton 06 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM
Teribus 06 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM
Folkiedave 06 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM
Bobert 06 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,lox 06 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM
Folkiedave 06 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM
number 6 06 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM
kendall 06 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM
robomatic 06 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM
Teribus 07 Jan 09 - 01:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM
CarolC 07 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,lox 07 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM
Lox 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Jan 09 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM
Ruth Archer 07 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM
kendall 07 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM
beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM
Folkiedave 07 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM
kendall 07 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM
Bill D 07 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM
heatherblether 07 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM
Bill D 07 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM
Folkiedave 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
kendall 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
artbrooks 07 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM
Teribus 07 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM
Bill D 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM
heatherblether 07 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM
heatherblether 07 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM
kendall 07 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM
Bill D 07 Jan 09 - 10:20 PM
heatherblether 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM
heatherblether 08 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM
C. Ham 08 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM
kendall 08 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM
Bobert 08 Jan 09 - 08:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM
Bill D 08 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM
kendall 08 Jan 09 - 11:59 AM
Riginslinger 08 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM
heatherblether 08 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM
heric 08 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Woolyhead 08 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM
C. Ham 08 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM
Richard Bridge 08 Jan 09 - 04:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM
Big Mick 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM
Teribus 08 Jan 09 - 04:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM
heatherblether 08 Jan 09 - 07:14 PM
artbrooks 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM
kendall 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 PM
kendall 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,heric 08 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM
Bobert 08 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,heric 08 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM
Bill D 08 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM
Teribus 09 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM
Barry Finn 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 07:28 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM
Nickhere 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM
Lox 09 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM
Lox 09 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM
heatherblether 09 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Confused 09 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Guest Teribus 09 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM
Nickhere 09 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM
kendall 09 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM
C. Ham 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM
pdq 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,lox 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM
Barry Finn 09 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM
kendall 09 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM
Nickhere 09 Jan 09 - 10:27 PM
Nickhere 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 PM
Teribus 10 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM
Barry Finn 11 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM
robomatic 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM
Barry Finn 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM
Bill D 11 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM
robomatic 11 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM
dick greenhaus 11 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM
Barry Finn 11 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM
Barry Finn 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM
DougR 12 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM
robomatic 12 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM
Teribus 12 Jan 09 - 01:50 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM
beardedbruce 12 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM
akenaton 12 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM
bobad 12 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM
Nickhere 12 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM
Greg F. 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM
Nickhere 12 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM
Nickhere 12 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,guest ifor 12 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM
Barry Finn 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,guest Hugo 12 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM
DougR 12 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,guest ifor 12 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,lox 12 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM
pdq 12 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 09 - 06:29 PM
pdq 12 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM
Riginslinger 12 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM
akenaton 12 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,guest ifor 12 Jan 09 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,guest ifor 13 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM
DougR 13 Jan 09 - 12:22 AM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM
Bobert 13 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,guest ifor 13 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,guest ifor 13 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,GUEST HUGO 13 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Guest Ifor 13 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,GUEST IFOR 13 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM
C. Ham 13 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM
Nickhere 13 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM
GUEST, guest ifor 13 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 13 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM
Barry Finn 13 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM
beardedbruce 13 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM
DougR 13 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM
Barry Finn 13 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM
Barry Finn 13 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM
Sorcha 13 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM
Barry Finn 13 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM
Bobert 13 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM
Nickhere 13 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM
Nickhere 13 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM
robomatic 14 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,ifor 14 Jan 09 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM
Bobert 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM
Teribus 14 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM
pdq 14 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 02:57 PM
akenaton 14 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,JTT 14 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM
akenaton 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM
Barry Finn 14 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM
Bobert 14 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM
Teribus 15 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,ifor 15 Jan 09 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,guest Hugo 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 05:38 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 05:56 AM
Barry Finn 15 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM
Bobert 15 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM
Riginslinger 15 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM
C. Ham 15 Jan 09 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,ifor 15 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,hugo 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM
Riginslinger 15 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM
Little Hawk 15 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,ifor 15 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM
Teribus 15 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,ifor 15 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Hugo 15 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM
Nickhere 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM
Nickhere 15 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM
C. Ham 15 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM
DougR 15 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM
C. Ham 15 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM
Nickhere 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Davey 15 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM
Teribus 15 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM
DougR 15 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
DougR 15 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,ifor 15 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM
Nickhere 15 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM
Bobert 15 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM
pdq 15 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM
Riginslinger 15 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM
bobad 15 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Jan 09 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,Peace 15 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM
Teribus 17 Jan 09 - 01:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 03:03 AM
Teribus 17 Jan 09 - 03:13 AM
Peace 17 Jan 09 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 04:21 AM
Teribus 17 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM
Riginslinger 17 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,hugo 17 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jan 09 - 11:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM
Teribus 17 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM
DougR 17 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,davey 17 Jan 09 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM
akenaton 17 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM
pdq 17 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM
akenaton 17 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM
pdq 17 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM
bobad 17 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM
Teribus 17 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM
bobad 17 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,lox 17 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,lox 17 Jan 09 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,ifor 17 Jan 09 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,lox 17 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Davey 17 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jan 09 - 07:28 PM
Nickhere 17 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM
Nickhere 17 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM
Nickhere 17 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM
robomatic 17 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM
Bobert 17 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM
Peace 17 Jan 09 - 10:17 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 03:20 AM
Teribus 18 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM
Riginslinger 18 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,ifor 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM
Teribus 18 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,ifor 18 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM
Teribus 18 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
Teribus 18 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,ifor 18 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM
akenaton 18 Jan 09 - 05:48 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 07:55 PM
robomatic 18 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM
Bobert 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM
DougR 18 Jan 09 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,ifor 19 Jan 09 - 02:19 AM
Bobert 19 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM
Teribus 19 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM
Teribus 19 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Jan 09 - 12:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM
Stringsinger 19 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,ifor 19 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM
Teribus 19 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM
Teribus 19 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM
Nickhere 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,ifor 19 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM
Teribus 20 Jan 09 - 01:48 AM
Barry Finn 20 Jan 09 - 02:12 AM
beardedbruce 20 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,HUGO 20 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 20 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM
Teribus 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM
Teribus 20 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM
Nickhere 20 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM
Nickhere 20 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Hugo 20 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM
Nickhere 20 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 20 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM
Teribus 20 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM
C. Ham 20 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM
Nickhere 20 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM
Barry Finn 20 Jan 09 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,ifor 20 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM
Teribus 20 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM
Bobert 20 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jan 09 - 07:53 PM
Teribus 21 Jan 09 - 12:55 AM
Barry Finn 21 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM
C. Ham 21 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,ifor 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM
Teribus 21 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 11:11 AM
Nickhere 21 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM
C. Ham 21 Jan 09 - 11:51 AM
Nickhere 21 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM
CarolC 21 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM
C. Ham 21 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM
C. Ham 21 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM
Peace 21 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Peace 21 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM
C. Ham 21 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM
CarolC 21 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM
pdq 21 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 21 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM
Barry Finn 21 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 21 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 PM
Peace 22 Jan 09 - 12:46 AM
Peace 22 Jan 09 - 12:48 AM
C. Ham 22 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM
Teribus 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 22 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
robomatic 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 02:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM
Joe Offer 22 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM
C. Ham 22 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM
DannyC 22 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM
C. Ham 22 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM
robomatic 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 03:57 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:42 PM
beardedbruce 22 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,ifor 22 Jan 09 - 05:42 PM
Bobert 22 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Jts 22 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM
Teribus 22 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM
Barry Finn 22 Jan 09 - 07:29 PM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM
Nickhere 22 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM
Bobert 22 Jan 09 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM
CarolC 22 Jan 09 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,JTS 22 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM
Barry Finn 23 Jan 09 - 12:40 AM
Teribus 23 Jan 09 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,Martin Harwood 23 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,hugo 23 Jan 09 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Hugo 23 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 09 - 09:39 AM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 11:53 AM
Teribus 23 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM
Nickhere 23 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM
CarolC 23 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,hugo 23 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM
CarolC 24 Jan 09 - 03:17 AM
CarolC 24 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 09 - 03:35 AM
Barry Finn 24 Jan 09 - 03:59 AM
Teribus 24 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Jan 09 - 05:53 AM
Barry Finn 24 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM
Nickhere 24 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM
Nickhere 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 24 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM
Nickhere 24 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM
number 6 24 Jan 09 - 11:17 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 12:01 AM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 12:09 AM
Teribus 25 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Arnie 25 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,ifor 25 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM
Teribus 25 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 09 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,ifor 25 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,ARNIE 25 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,hugo 25 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM
Sawzaw 25 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM
Teribus 25 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 05:18 PM
Sawzaw 25 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,ifor 25 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM
Nickhere 25 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM
Nickhere 25 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 25 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
Sawzaw 25 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 12:17 AM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 01:18 AM
GUEST,Arnie 26 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,ifor 26 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM
Barry Finn 26 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Arnie 26 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM
Stringsinger 26 Jan 09 - 02:21 PM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM
CarolC 26 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Barry at the library 26 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Arnie 26 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM
Folkiedave 26 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM
Barry Finn 26 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM
Folkiedave 26 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM
Folkiedave 26 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM
Sawzaw 26 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM
Sawzaw 27 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM
GUEST,Peace 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 AM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,hugo 27 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 03:55 AM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM
Barry Finn 27 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,HUGO 27 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,ifor 27 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 09 - 06:51 PM
CarolC 27 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM
Sawzaw 29 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM
CarolC 29 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM
CarolC 29 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM
Teribus 29 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Davey 29 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM
Teribus 29 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM
CarolC 29 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM
CarolC 29 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM
Teribus 30 Jan 09 - 01:57 AM
Teribus 30 Jan 09 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,ifor 30 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM
Teribus 30 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM
Peace 30 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM
Sawzaw 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM
Sawzaw 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM
Sawzaw 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM
Teribus 30 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 30 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM
Teribus 30 Jan 09 - 07:12 PM
CarolC 30 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM
Sawzaw 30 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM
CarolC 30 Jan 09 - 09:21 PM
Sawzaw 30 Jan 09 - 11:21 PM
CarolC 30 Jan 09 - 11:28 PM
Teribus 31 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM
Teribus 31 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM
Teribus 31 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 05:02 AM
Sawzaw 31 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM
robomatic 31 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 05:51 PM
robomatic 31 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM
Teribus 31 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM
robomatic 31 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 08:25 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 31 Jan 09 - 09:10 PM
Nickhere 31 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 31 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 09 - 09:53 PM
Peace 31 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM
Sawzaw 31 Jan 09 - 10:13 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 01:03 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 01:56 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM
KEVINOAF 01 Feb 09 - 07:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 09:42 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM
Teribus 01 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM
Teribus 01 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM
Nickhere 01 Feb 09 - 07:57 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 08:25 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM
Peace 01 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 09:33 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 10:12 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 12:00 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM
Teribus 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM
Teribus 02 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,ifor 02 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 12:45 PM
Teribus 02 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM
Teribus 02 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,ifor 02 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM
Nickhere 02 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 06:41 PM
bobad 02 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 07:14 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 02 Feb 09 - 08:47 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM
CarolC 02 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM
Teribus 03 Feb 09 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,ifor 03 Feb 09 - 06:20 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Hugo 03 Feb 09 - 10:59 AM
robomatic 03 Feb 09 - 11:08 AM
soulkat9 03 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM
beardedbruce 03 Feb 09 - 12:41 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Hugo 03 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Hugo 03 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM
Barry Finn 03 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM
Barry Finn 04 Feb 09 - 02:57 AM
beardedbruce 04 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM
beardedbruce 04 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM
C. Ham 04 Feb 09 - 09:10 AM
C. Ham 04 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,ifor 04 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM
Teribus 04 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Feb 09 - 12:16 PM
C. Ham 04 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Peace 04 Feb 09 - 08:57 PM
bobad 04 Feb 09 - 10:49 PM
beardedbruce 05 Feb 09 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,ifor 05 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM
Peace 05 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM
Peace 05 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM
Barry Finn 05 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Peace 05 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM
Sawzaw 06 Feb 09 - 12:15 AM
Sawzaw 06 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:23 AM
Teribus 06 Feb 09 - 02:29 AM
Sawzaw 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 AM
Barry Finn 06 Feb 09 - 02:37 AM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:42 AM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 10:16 AM
heatherblether 06 Feb 09 - 10:18 AM
Teribus 06 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM
heatherblether 06 Feb 09 - 12:23 PM
Teribus 06 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM
Sawzaw 06 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM
heatherblether 06 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM
Sawzaw 06 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 02:40 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM
beardedbruce 06 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 05:04 PM
CarolC 06 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM
Nickhere 06 Feb 09 - 07:17 PM
heatherblether 06 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Feb 09 - 08:14 PM
Sawzaw 07 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM
Sawzaw 07 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM
Teribus 07 Feb 09 - 06:52 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM
Teribus 07 Feb 09 - 07:15 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 07 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM
Nickhere 07 Feb 09 - 08:33 PM
Sawzaw 07 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 AM
Barry Finn 08 Feb 09 - 01:36 AM
Sawzaw 08 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM
beardedbruce 09 Feb 09 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM
beardedbruce 09 Feb 09 - 08:06 AM
heatherblether 09 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 09 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM
Stringsinger 09 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM
Nickhere 09 Feb 09 - 01:27 PM
Sawzaw 09 Feb 09 - 11:29 PM
Sawzaw 09 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM
C. Ham 11 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM
Stringsinger 11 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM
C. Ham 11 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM
Sawzaw 11 Feb 09 - 11:40 PM
Nickhere 12 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 12 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM
Nickhere 12 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM
Nickhere 12 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM
Barry Finn 12 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM
C. Ham 12 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM
Peace 12 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM
Peace 12 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM
C. Ham 12 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM
Peace 12 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 12 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM
Peace 12 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Peace 12 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM
Teribus 12 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM
Nickhere 12 Feb 09 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Emma B 12 Feb 09 - 08:27 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 12 Feb 09 - 08:32 PM
Emma B 12 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,Emma B 12 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 12 Feb 09 - 10:25 PM
Peace 13 Feb 09 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Peace 13 Feb 09 - 12:55 AM
Teribus 13 Feb 09 - 01:31 AM
Nickhere 13 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 13 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM
Teribus 13 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM
Nickhere 13 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM
Teribus 13 Feb 09 - 08:30 PM
Sawzaw 14 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM
Teribus 14 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM
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Subject: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:05 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809959.stm

Peacekeeping I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

"An Israeli military spokeswoman confirmed the incursion had begun and said the objective was "to destroy the Hamas terror infrastructure in the area of operations".

"We are going to take some of the launch areas used by Hamas," Maj Avital Leibovitch told reporters."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Not peacekeeping, Folkiedave, as well you can surmise. Destroying Hamas...finally. Of course, another militant, terrorist group will take Hamas' place, until the Palestinian Arabs decide they really want peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

"until the Palestinian Arabs decide they really want peace."

I don't pretend to have the answers to this dilemna, but I do recognize an inflammatory bigoted snipe when I read one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:00 PM

TOO many Arabs ONLY want Israel wiped off the map !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM

I think there is equal bigotry on both sides lox


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

Oh, there is indeed. But the firepower and the ability to use it to destroy many people's lives and property is not so evenly distributed by any means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:34 PM

There is - but on this website I respond to it when I read it expressed.

I don't infer bigotry by association with a viewpoint partially shared by a bigot.

If I did that I would have to accuse everyone on this site of being a bigot as every point of view has at some point been twisted by a bigot to justify their hatred.

So I'm not going to do that.

If I see a biggotted comment and am inclined to do so then I will point it out.

The one I referred to above contains no substance other than bigotry.

Why? because it generalizes about all arabs - rounds them up into an intellectual pen to justify their slaughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

2 things I genuinely don't understand -in the statements on the media we are told of thousands of rockets sent by Hammas into Israel and then we are given a figure of actual Palestnian casualties -I cannot understand why it is reported this way -surely if comparisons have been to be made then report casualtiy against casualty -how many Israelis have died in these rocket attacks -why aren't we told?? Secondly, where is the support of other Arab nations for the people of Palestine?

Regardless of who is right who is wrong who started it or any other viewpoint - this slaughter has to stop now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: MarkS
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

Let us all pray for a quick end to hostilities and a peaceful resolution to the conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

So far, the Israelis are killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli.
The BBC Canada does a pretty good job of reporting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Linda - in answer to your question,

the BBC says 4.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

Sorry to say this for the umpteeth time.... I know many of you are tired of me saying this...

The rich subjugate the poor.

Palestine... Iraq... Afghanistan... Pakistan... Korea... Sudan... Ivory Coast... Ukraine...

I KNOW I have "left out" some MAJOR trouble spots. But, why go on?

Europe is next with the gas. When they hurt... well... lock and load.

My guess is that nuclear war will warm things up a lot. Pakistan first?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

I used to be motivated to write killer op/ed pieces which were published whenever I read about something like this which made me angry. Now, I just shake my head and think of the folly of humankind and how stupid the whole thing is and, the fact that it is mostly women, mothers, who wind up the most hopeless with the most to protect while the military (i know there are women in it, too!) do their best to destroy everything. I don't give a damn what countries, what ethnicity, what religion. It is stupid and if I think too much about it, I will cry my heart out and do no good at all.

I will give thanks for peace and lend my will to that of the creator I believe in, but I will also recognise people's free will has a lot to do with it, so I will give thanks they are moved to peace, also. SO mote it be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

Is this the Beginning of the Middle east war ????
How will Iran come into this ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

I fucking hope not!!!

But they are the stakes that these impotent fools need to get a rush these days I guess.

(Impotent not important)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

Iran is already in it.

Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing but extensions of Iran's Muslim extremist government and get their money and weapons from Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

Where did my last post go? This is at least six posts in a week that went gone.

Kat... "It is stupid and if I think too much about it, I will cry my heart out..."

Yup, it is to cry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Sixty years ago they asked the world to understand and cry for the injustice they suffered. Today they prove they are no better.

Why why has this nation above all other not learned putting people out of their homes and senseless killing of children serves no purpose.

They wonder why people dislike them. This is a sad start to another year of hell for these poor living on their own land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM

You may not agree with me Lox, but my comment was not a bigoted snipe; it was an observation paraphrasing Golda Meir, "There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis" or words to close to that.

But what kind of analysis can one expect from one whose mantra is "Murder is Murder." The law distinguishes between degrees of killing, but Lox knows better.

Lox, as you don't know me, you cannot know that I have had friendly social and business relations with Palestinians in the US from the 1970s until I retired. Most were wonderful, nice, successful people. Most were Christians, but many were Muslim. It's too bad that those they left behind, especially their leadership after Israel left Gaza, did not choose to follow peaceful pursuits, rather than harass (and that is the mildest word I can use) Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM

John, I withdraw my comments, except for "murder is murder", until somebody says something that convinces me that it isn't so.

Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Until the people are all eyeless and toothless presumably.

Perhaps if people stopped supplying arms it might help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM

Oh and in equal measure, There will be peace when Israelis love their children more than they hate Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

This has been going on since the Jews invaded Caanan and claimed the land for themselves. How the hell are we to stop it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:05 PM

" the firepower and the ability to use it to destroy many people's lives and property is not so evenly distributed by any means".

So, when has war, which this seems to be, ever been about matching one side's distructive power (or advantage) with the other sides?

Could it be that some Mudfolks are mixing war up with sport, where rules are set to make a match more fair and interesting for the observer/supporter.

While not pleasent, historically conflict, globally, has been and is about distruction, injury and death. One side normally has an upper hand and prevails, in one way or another...at least temporarily. Sounds callous, but war and conflict is just that.

While I always sympathize with civilians during military conflicts, they are always hit hard. At times, even their own forces use their plight for propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:26 PM

Golda Meir was one of the Zionists from North America and Europe that moved into the Palestinian lands. It was a mistake to ever let them move in, but nothing can be done about it these many years later. The Palestinians will never achieve self-government; the Israelis will never permit it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

a long time ago , the nazi killed the jews it was a sad chapter in human history , now is the jews acting like the Nazi did ???
by killing children of the palistine people ?

now notice that I am against all wars , and I know hamas has been
killing people from Isreal , killing makes a killing .

we must stop this right now , I am afraid that only way to make peace is to blow everthing up . and that will happen its only matter of time .

how low can the human race go , how low do we have to go ?
make money , be greedy , by killing others .........

its a sad world that we live in ........   
and I am a shamed for being of that race ..... that behavin .....

what about africa ... the killing , the hunger .... even we Icelanders are trying to build up the water system down there

we have Icelandic people there ABC´s children help we build up schools
tetach the children but still there are people who have to ruin it
just for money , greed and wars .... the people who manufactor weapons need to sell and politics starts wars ...........

I wonder did the US have anything to do to start the war in Balcan
, are they involved in the war in Africa ?
or are the soviet ivolved there or china ? why should they, becouse thay make weapons .....

I am just a little man , who lives in a little country
that never had any army , apart from the viking time history .
we live in peace still ? its hard for me to see little children be killed by people who either abuse them or kill them in war ....
and there is so little that I can do about it , as an Former EMT.

a reaspect for an human live .
its long gone . the meanest pretador in the world is human kind .

as I said long before here on Mudcat , it does not matter if you are african/american, Indian , asian , jewish , Budda, christian or Islam
we should all live in peace , but for century´s some world power
countrys has ropped other ´s of their treasure such as gold, oil dimands and others things, so why should people of those countrys not be angry ?? I may someday go back to school , and then I will learn about the history , and then try to understand all this better .

but enough of this .

all the best Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

Israel moves in - for the final solution?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:05 PM

Israel moves in for what is almost certainly another futile attempt to obtain security for its citizens, realizing that it faces universal condemnation for doing so, but also realizing that no individual, no nation and no world organization will ever be of any real assistance in this process. Some countries, like the US, will pretend to help - for cynical reasons having more to do with domestic politics than anything else - but Israel, as always, stands alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:20 PM

I don't see how this could be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:54 AM

I am sure that we could blame either side with justification. What I can't comprehend is what Hamas would hope to gain by poking a stick into a hornets nest knowing full well what the response would be. If it is not sheer stupidity it must be suicide or sacrifice of it's people. It is a great shame that the world has allowed this conflict to continue for so many years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM

War, is indeed ugly! However, when the stated goal of Hamas, Hezbolah, Iran, among others, is to wipe your country off the face of the map, what option is there? By the way, Kat, in Israel women fight along side of the men, in hopes of providing safety for their children. My prayer, is that this does not spread, or pull anyone else into it. As of a late broadcast, aired just before I came on, the Muslim terrorists have been given the 'go ahead' to take action against American 'interests', as well, around the globe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:35 AM

Will the new president of America back the Jews just as every other president did ? we wait to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: polaitaly
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM

I will be happy if the new president back the Jews. I will be happier if he stops backing without questions the Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:08 AM

"There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

I have been reflecting on this sentence.

I am curious to know if it is accurate or not.

But if it is then lets consider what it means.


When palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis.


This is an implied threat.


1. It presupposes that conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is grounded in hatred - Note: Palestinians - not Hamas.

2. It spells out that if palestinians persist in military conflict with Israel that their children will die.


It describes a clear policy.


John - thankyou for bringing these words to my attention.

I am astounded that I had never encountered them before.



We are witnessing that policy in action.

A highly organized modern army with the most up to date technology and the financial assistance to sustain it is blowing up schools and hospitals and killing children.


Now either they aren't all that they're cracked up to be or something is wrong with Israeli policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

Oh My God.

Look what a google search brought up ...

Hold on to your stomach


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:39 AM

Listening to talk radio each morning before I go to work I hear vitriolic condemnations by both sides, particularly by what I consider are fundamentalists who do not seem to tolerate the existence of the other side.

My belief is that both in Isreal and Palestine the majority of people just want to live their lives - and these are the real victims of the 'dispute'.

With regard to the futility of poking sticks in hornets' nest, surely the strategy if to provoke the hornets so that they swarm, and more people with more sticks rally against the hornets.

The world has become a more dangerous place again


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM

Simple answer is,Israel has no right to be in Palestine. Accept fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:01 AM

Where do you suggest relocating Israel to, Mexico, Isle of Wight? Israel/Palestine are not lines on a map, they are nations populated by people who seek self-identity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

for cynical reasons having more to do with domestic politics than anything else

Not to sell the products of the American arms industry then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

They are a nation dumped on the Palestinians by Britain and America since 1945, are you saying they have a right to the land ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:29 AM

I'm not taking sides - but if you are giving me a history lesson, then maybe Palastina by your argument shouldn't have been imposed on Judah in 135 CE by Rome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

Current Israeli policy does look well, more than a bit Herodian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

"There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

I read that as an Israeli threat as well and not as a comment on Palestinian behaviour.

And I was raised in (and thankfully recovering from) White Southern Baptist Conservative household.

The thing is, the balance of resources is not equal and Israel is a bully that for all intents and purposes "is" supported by the US, whether the US wants to admit it or not. Shameful and sickening.

Wouldn't be great if the mothers would rise up en masse to make it stop. Moms around the world, beating the living shit out of their war mongering children from highest to lowest rank. Drag em off home by the ear, tsk tsk at them and stick them in a corner forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

The last time the Israeli IDF was in action in the Gaza was when they were forcibly (in many cases) removing the Jewish settlements from the region.

Crazy world.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

""There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis"

Virginia Tam ... that is a quote form Golda Meir

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

Israel to Gaza....."Please stop struggling while I strangle you, or I'll cut your head off"

Gaza to Israel...."but what difference will that make?"

Israel to Gaza "all that blood looks really bad on TV!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

number 6 I have read the thread and I know the origin of the quote. I still think it sounds like a threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:07 AM

It depends on how you look at it VT ..... I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"""There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israelis""


                   If they had a One-Child policy, they maybe they would love their children more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM

these people that are doing this, it's like hitler and the Nazi Party, the jews just want to wipe out the arabs, they believe in killing for killing sake, they don't care about the arabs that live there, the Jews aren't intrested about peace, and so are te people that support them ie some Americans.

so it's about time that the west told the Israelies to stop now or the west shout either put sankstions on Israel.

or are western leaders just cowards and allow this killing to go on, by both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM

Rig .... I remember the population argument you presented about a year ago which I argued against .... well, I have to say I am somewhat convinced ... A Syrian (a medical doctor btw) friend of mine happens to believe the biggest issue with the mideast is over population ...... the old agrarian way of life has become non resourceful for the small family farmer who cannot provide for themselves ... they are now living in a state of continual unemploymnent in in urban overcrowded communities with the population ever expanding ... thus a mass attitude of frustration, evolving to hatred, fanaticism (politically / religiously) fueled on by a hope of never ending hoplessness and despair.

just thought I'd throw this into the pile.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Ahhh but it was not phrased that way.

In the actual quote, there is accusation and blame that Palestine is at fault. An Israeli implication that Palestine prefers hating Israel to loving it's own children.

There is nothing in that statement that encourages peace or understanding. It is a threat.

We will let you have peace when we are satisfied that you do not hate us. We will stop killing your children when we are satisfied that you do not hate us.

What proof of satisfaction? That Paelstinians move out of the land. Israelis want it and they do not want it polluted by Palestines and their different culture and oh so wrong religion.

That is all it boils down to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:35 AM

I'm aware of Golda's quote not being phrased that way I presented VT .... I just rephrased with a more universal slant to it ... personally, I'm not pointing fingers at any side in this conflict ... I just want to see peace, the world over .... pointing fingers it not the solution ... peace can be only reached with tolerance, understanding, and humanity ... pointing fingers, bringing up the past is not a solution, it just continues the madness.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

You are right Bill. I am not really taking sides either. Both are in the wrong in ways I cannot comprehend. But I do get miffed about bullies and that is what Israel looks like to me, especially with big brother US standing menacingly in the background.

Maybe it is because I am an American living in UK. When I see my native country in such uncomplimentary light, it hurts me and I feel the need to show that Americans individually are what the world perceives us collectievly to be.

Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

Reading some of these threads ... watching the news, reading the news, all one hears are reasons of speculation, one sided solutions, politiks, religion, the official stand of the U.S. government, the official stand of the France, Iran's official stand .... all I see is finger pointing, hatred, the loss of lives and madness ..... I dunno.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

"Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread."

good one .... me too VT

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM

There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

i agree


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Interestingly, just a couple of threads away as I post, is a thread about an IRA hunger striker.

I'm not terribly pro-IRA - indeed I'm rather anti-IRA - but it moved me to wonder whether IRA-like tactics including hunger strikes might gain Gazans their freedom from Israel - gain them control of their own borders, their own infrastructure, and permit their economy to sustain them better than it is now permitted to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Why would hunger strikes help? One more dead Palestinian is of no consequence to the Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

This may not be the thread for this but gonna say it anyway. While I don't condone some IRA tactics, I fully understand why they were pressed into some of them.

Another group of people oppressed and backed into a corner by a big mucking bully.

I am always gonna go with the underdog. Cannot help it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM

Golda Meir was an American citizen (family from the Ukraine) who supported Zionism and became a leader in the Israeli resettlement. She moved with her husband to the Palestinian area in 1921. Periodically she returned to raise money and agitate for Zionism. In 1948 she was a signator on the Israeli declaration of independence, and later rose to be prime minister.

Always a Zionist, and supported of Israeli domination in the Palestinian region, she helped institute policies that guaranteed conflict that will continue for many years to come.

Now it is the Palestinian Muslims and Christians who need to replace their homeland of more that 1000 years. Israel will never permit the existence of a truly independent Palestinian state.

I see no hope for the Palestinians; they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands or acceptance of political and social dominance by the Israeli theocratic state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

How many years has mankind gone without a war being waged somewhere? How many years of peace has mankind enjoyed? Do the math. War is the natural state of being. The strong devour the weak, and it has always been so. We are not capable of governing ourselves. The only creatures on earth that engage in warfare are humans and Chimpanzees. We share 98% of our genes.Go figure.
Cynical? perhaps. Realistic? Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

Indeed, VT - but why did IRA terrorism and suicides work for the IRA but seem hopeless for Gazans? CarolC has come up with one answer. If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

England didn't fail in Ireland Richard because they hesitated. They accepted they could never defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army, there is a big difference. That is why they asked to speak to their leaders to resolve THEIR problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I agree with that Richard and with Kendall's views
Our govt was instrumental in robbing the Palestinians and bringing the Israeli state into being, yet only 500 protested Israel's action in London today. We are worse than animals, we rationalise the murder of children, then turn our faces away.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

Q wrote "they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands"
Much of Canada was settled by refugees of some type. They have prospered here and produced generations of very valued citizens whom we would be much the worse of without. In Gaza there are still refugees living in camps after 60 years with descendants of five or more generations.
Why does the world refuse to absorb them? Would the culture of neighbouring Arab lands be that unfamiliar? I offer no excuse for Isreal but the actions of other countries refusing to help these poor souls should be viewed with contempt as well.
Enough blame and hate! It's time to find a solution and overthrowing Isreal has no potential in these peoples lifetime!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

Most in North America, as in many other parts of the world, enjoy prosperity today because they displaced other peoples from lands they now enjoy, killed them with superior arms, reducing them to living in reserves....somewhat like todays refuge camps, an marginilizing their success, livlihood and culture to this very day.

"Many people love in themselves what they hate in others"
E. F. Schumacher


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

"Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation, or creed~   Bertrand Russell


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

So, Fife, why was England unable to "defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army" while Israel can defeat Hamas and has at least once defeated although not entirely exterminated the Hezbollah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

I don't understand either side of this apparently two-sided conflict, which has been in play all my long life.

I can only surmise, therefore, that the two-sided picture is false, and that a third, and possibly a fourth and fifth party, are energetically and continuously involved in perpetuating the hatred.

I have known young people from Israel and SYria, each firmly raised in their cultures, who came to America and lived in complete harmony with each other.

IF the whole concepts of "racial types" and "mandatory cultural beliefs" were recognized as the horseshit they are, things might move along; but as long as some voices are perpetually using these phony categories to insist on us-versus-them, under-versus-over, us-right-them-wrong dichotomies, which are complete distortions of the ground truth involved, the tribulations will persist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

"If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza."

Aye, point well made.

England had a respectable facade to maintain...

And we're still living under those utterly false cultural illusions today... While of course still participating in the same old bollox (check Blair and the plagiarised Phd. thesis fiasco!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

They are not there yet Richard, I imagine there is more to come !


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Folkiedave: Israel doesn't really purchase US military equipment out of its own budget. Rather, the US gives Israel an "aid package" of what amounts to credits, spendable only in the US. They cannot buy a French or Swedish jet with it, for example, even if they can get better value. Almost all military aid programs are actually ways to subsidize domestic industry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

I guess Israel will give "their" land back to the Palestinians on the same day that America returns the land they stole,swindled,and took by brute force and terror from the original inhabitants ( I believe they were called "Red Indians" ).In the meantime, keep your eyes on Iran, and never forget that Armageddon is a real place ......in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

The Palestinians will consider themselves very lucky if Israel will simply allow them to remain on the land they currently have. Of course, the government of Israel has no intention of letting them do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Well CarolC, if Isreal totally withdraws to within its pre 1967 borders and agrees to remain there by treaty with the Palestinians will that resolve the problem? Would the Palestinians in turn promise
never again to launch missles at Isreal? Would the other Arab states agree to this as well? At some point in time claims of land entitlement must be forgotten, at least long after the people who lived on those lands are dead and gone. If it would bring peace I think it is time to start. However I fear that mutiual hatred will prevail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

How in the name of sanity do you reach anyone, let alone any group that has been indoctrinated into national or religious elitism?

One would think in this day and age, where so much information is available and friendships are being forged across cultures and across the globe that we would be witnessing an evolution of collective human psyche.

Will we always be barbarians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:40 PM

You may be right Fife. Incidentally, does your name refer to a musical instrument and will you be joining and seeing us upstairs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

My late father was a well known respected player, I on the otherhand try !


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Comparison with IRA is false.
The political goal of IRA was unification of the 6 northern counties with the Irish Republic.
That goal could, and can be, achieved by persuading 51% to vote for it.
The Nationalists have now become the majority population in the North.
Soon they will be the majority of voting age.
Then a united Ireland will be achieved.
All the IRA violence achieved nothing but decades of death and poverty.
It did not bring unification one day sooner.

Sinn Fein have achieved considerable electoral success since ending the violence.
They could have done that 30 years ago.
The violent fools.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Er - Keith, it was violence that removed the English from the other counties was it not? An act of armed insurrection in and around 1922 if I recollect. It was violence that got the English to talk to the IRA leaders, was it not?

Why does it work in Ireland and not the Eastern Mediterranean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

Read the White Paper of 1939, the british placed themselves at odds with Israel. To make things worse, the situation in europe demanded a new Home for the Jews, as european Jewry had nowhere to run to. While the british were making "peace" with the germans, they were declaring war against all of Israel. And even after the german intentions became apparent and britain sank into the depths of war, the british still refused to grant Jewish refugees entrance into their Homeland.

The british sided with the arabs in Israel, that were led by the mufti of Jerusalem. It is known that this leader had ties with the germans, and that he urged hitler to kill all the Jews, pleading as well with the germans and other arab leaders to help him massacre all the Jews of the middle east.

When the british sided with these people, it became apparent to everyone that they were the enemy of Israel. Therefore the Jews had to wage war against the british.

But Jews have always been a weak and divided people, since they have spread themselves across borders and have lived as minorities amongst the vast majorities. And Jews have consistently betrayed themselves, since they have sworn their loyalties to nearly every foreign land.

If all the Jews lived in one country, then at least they could defend themselves by defending that country. But the Jews have been scattered upon the face of the earth, and thus they have betrayed themselves with every ounce of their strength.

The british policy was almost as destructive as that of the nazis, but it was the germans that did the actual killing. Therefore the germans were Israel's number one enemy. Since england was fighting germany, the Jews were faced with a big dilemma.

By fighting england, they would be helping germany, but by fighting germany they would be helping the british. Yet the Jews of Israel were weak anyhow, and whatever they did they wouldn't have had much of an affect on the greater conflict. Therefore they were best off joining the british in order gain a foothold into europe so that they could rescue their people, and then defy the british so they could attempt to bring their people to Israel. And in Israel they were best suited with a policy of defiance to the british, because england had enough problems to deal with that it should have to invest too much effort in Israel. This gave Israel an advantage, because the british didn't have the strength to rule over Israel.

But the Jews are also foolishly stubborn, in that they stick to their ideals and fight for their opinions even when their thoughts have no merit. And the Jews preserve their loyalties and keep their promises even when this is treacherous to themselves and traitorous to each other. So most of the Jews in Israel and especially in America treated the british as friends and the arabs as equals. Therefore they cooperated with the british even against their own people, leaving their brothers to die and betraying their own neighbors.

Although there were some that characterized the will of Israel, and this sentiment was embodied by the Irgun and Lehi, and sometimes aided by the Haganah. During and after the war (WWII) these people fought to save their brothers in europe and return them to safety in Israel. And after the war, they fought the british, contributing greatly to the liberation of Israel.

Yet these groups were like the Maccabees of earlier days, for while they succeeded in their intentions, they have failed in their success, because the british occupation has been replaced with that of the Americans. They knew Israel had to be liberated, but they did not understand what for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

If your next door Neigborough kept throwing bricks into your garden injuring you family or even killing them, then you would get pissed off & after a while throw the lot back & more! This is what is happening!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

Yes skipy, and if those living in your garden on your property were doing it, you would get pissed off too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

If your neighbor took your groves and pastures and locked you into a shanty, dependent on aid agencies for bread, in frustration you would throw bricks or whatever at the 'neighbor'; the garden that was yours has been taken from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

Guest,Alan: cut and pasting information from the Etzel/Irgun website is fine, as long as you are aware that Irgun and the Stern Gang (Lehi) perpetrated most of the atrocities (such as the King David Hotel bombing and the De'ir Yassin massacre) that are pointed to 60 years later as examples of why the Palestinians can never trust the Israelis and which were condemned at the time by both the Haganah and the World Zionist Congress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

This must be one of the tests Joe Biden was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

I doubt there is a month goes by we aren't subjected to a film or programme recalling what was done against the Jews, yes they want our tears and understanding, but how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people ? Maybe they feel happy enough to do so knowing that America will back them, then again many feel they own America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

"how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people?"

Right guest Alan, the "Jews" launched thousands of rockets at the Nazi government of Germany, that's why they were murdered by them. If you're trying to find analogies try using appropriate ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

In most civilised countries, a certain degree of violence is considered acceptable in one's defence. This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding.

I do not believe that you could make a case for responding to a slap in the face, by beating your attacker to death with a baseball bat, much less by shooting him.

This is precisely what Israel is doing.

In addition (and this does seem to have been missed by almost every commentator), Hamas, as a party, is the legitimately elected government of Palestine, and this means that Israel has initiated an undeclared WAR against a neighbouring sovereign state, using the massive military advantage gifted to them by a succession of over indulgent US governments.

There does not seem to be much strong evidence that the ruling Hamas Party is behind the rocket attacks, but rather that it is a splinter group of militants.

Maybe the way forward is for Israel and Palestine to co-operate in removing the culprits, rather that continuing the hate campaign they seem to be locked into.

A good start would be for Israel to offer the prospect of opening the border, and allowing trade, in return for co-operation in defusing the rocket threat. Gaza is nothing more than a very dangerous prison camp at the moment.

UN please note.

One last thought. For God's sake stop Tony Bloody Blair from sticking his big nose in, or this will go on for decades more.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

bobad, I imagine they will get their just rewards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM

This morning at Fremont Baptist, my wife and I did the "Special Music"; after singing the Chinese New Year hymn "The Grace of God Unbounded Is" (MIDI), we sang Peter Yarrow's Hanukkah song "Light One Candle", dedicating it in particular to our sisters and brothers in the Gaza Baptist Church, who, as my wife put it, are having a particularly unpleasant weekend.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:43 PM

"This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding."

Which is where the "eye for an eye" principle came in. What Israel is doing in Gaza is in clear breach of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM

That last one (08:43 PM ) was mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

The Israelis tried politely asking Hamas to refrain from launching missiles into Israel but that tactic turned out to not be effective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

This is not true. The Israelis are not punishing Gazans for 12 dead Israelis. They are implementing a military operation to stop further rocket launches, or more, according to whatever your preferences or speculations may be. The damage and human suffering must be weighed against the goals, stated or real, not against the number of previously killed Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM

Quebec has a separatist party with a goal to eventually split off from Canada and start their own nation. They don't shoot rockets into Ontario and try to kill people to try and accomplish this - as if somehow this strategy would win sympathy of intelligent people? That's the problem - we're all stupid. It appears that most of the world thinks Hamas should be allowed to send rockets into Israel anytime they want- that's perfectly fine. Somehow this strategy is Kosher for all Jew haters. What's really to worry about a few dead and terrified Jews?
There is a lot more than this than just Hamas and Gaza trouble- it is the goal of the Jihadists dream for a renewal of a complete fundamentalist Islamic Middle East- no room for Jews, weterners or other occupiers- code word for anyone except Arab Islamists. The children are being raised to grow up and become dead martyrs for their cause. This is the reality of what Israel and what Jews are facing. Complete lunacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Sorry bobad I was referring to the eye for an eye subject, not your comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Richard Bridge, no.
I do not agree with your interpretation.
This is not the place to discuss it though.

The comparisons in this thread to IRA were probably referring to the recent troubles, where the insurrection was a chosen alternative to the democratic process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

Just wondering:
911 had about 3,000 deaths and two buoilkdings distroyed.
Was the response in Iraq and Afganistan, and the impact on civilians proportional?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:29 AM

Sorry about the typo, meant buildings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:32 AM

CarolC,

War is horrible, but even the Palestinians ( as opposed to Gazans) have said that Hamas is responsible.

"There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest. "


Yet they do love their children( - and all humans who are not trying to kill them far) more than they want land or the subjugation of others. Please see the Charter of Hamas, and the constitution of Israel. Look at how many Moslims are in Israel, and how many Jews are permitted in the Arab Moslim nations. Israel has traded land for a chance a security that Hamas has denied them.

It is Hamas and the Gazans that elected them that chose to smuggle in rockets ( that could only be used to attack the Israeli civilian population) instead of smuggling in equal mass of food and medicines.


If I spend my money on musical instruments instead of food, can I fairly blame YOU when I am hungry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

It's as well to remember that when Hamas was established in 1987 it was assisted by the Israeli government, which saw it as a way of drawing support from Al Fatah. (Here's an article from The American Conservative which deals with this - How Israel helped to create Hamas - I picked that source to avoid any kneejerk assumptions about this being a liberal twisting of the facts.)

Here's a taster:

Hamas first emerged in 1987. It was formed from various charities based in the Palestinian territories with links to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement born in Egypt in the 1920s from which many of today's radical Islamic sects, including al-Qaeda, have sprung. Israel allowed these Islamic charities to gain strength and influence in Palestinian areas, hoping that they would counter the influence of secular Palestinian resistance movements.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas until his death by Israeli air strike in 2004, formed Hamas as the military wing of his group the Islamic Association, which was licensed by Israel 10 years earlier. During that period, when there was open conflict between Israeli forces and Palestinian nationalists, Israeli officials gave the nod to and even indirectly funded the establishment of Islamic societies in the West Bank and Gaza that might weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization.

Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, has said, "[W]e saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism." The very Islamic groups "cultivated" by Israel in the 1970s became Hamas in the 1980s, which went on to become Israel's biggest nightmare in the 1990s. It remains so today."


Of course the assumption that this was a misjudgment can be questioned. The overall effect of Hamas on Palestinian hopes has been pretty disastrous, and it seems quite possible that this longterm strategy may have been just what was intended by some of those responsible for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

Israel claims that it is acting in the interests of its citizens and that it is just defending itself, but if that was the real motivation of the Israeli government it would stop the decades-long oppression of the Palestinian people, not make the situation even worse. That brutal oppression is what has made ordinary Palestinian people so desperate and angry that they will turn to violence and support groups like Hamas - they think that they have nothing else; they don't see any government making any real effort to challenge the Israeli government over its illegal actions.

I'm sure that if what happens to the Palestinians happened to us, some of us would be firing rockets at the country that did it too. I don't think that Iraeli and Palestinian violence are the same - the two come from very different places, have different motivatons. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go through horrendous things every day at the hands of the Israeli government and see no end in sight, whereas Israelis live pretty much like we do.

If the Israeli government wants to stop the violence coming from Palestine then it should stop treating the Palestinians as if they are less than human, and the Israeli government knows that. The fact that the Israeli government has the full backing of the Bush administration in this matter speaks volumes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Shades of US cultivation of the Taliban as a counterweight to the Soviets, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

OK, I will add to my last post that some Israelis do not live 'pretty much like we do' in that they have rockets fired at them and some of them are killed by them. I see these people as victims of the Israeli government's actions just as the Palestinians are. I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law.

My point was that most Israelis do live like we do and all Israelis have access to medical care, education, water supplies, etc., unlike Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Ruth Bibby
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

Haruo, were you responding to my post? I was thinking along the lines of the "war on terror." Bush tried to justify the invasion of Iraq by framing it as a defensive action, which is also how Israel is claiming to be justified in its actions in Gaza. I don't think that that claim could be further from the truth in either situation. Israel and the US are alligned as part of the "war on terror," but in fact the military actions of both create injustice and anger and so create more terrorism, not less. Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy.

Oh, and that last post was mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM

"Like Israel, the US is currently occupying land that it has no right, legal or otherwise, to occupy."

do you mean Texas ???    :)


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST 1
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Phrased like that, it's quite acceptable. Problem is, Meir didn't put it like that, she made it clear that according to her everything was the fault of the Palestinians - they bring death on themselves - as a people (sounds chillingly familiar).

Guest.lox - you are on the ball with your observations about Meir's comment, but left out that it also presupposes that al the hate is on one side and there are no Israelis who hate palestinians or ever tried to run them out of their homes and farms.

And for those who defend the quote by saying "well, that's just what Meir said" - WTF? Where's the logic in that? And the REAL question is 'do you agree with her or not'? If you quote her uncritically, presumably you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

And New Mexico, Arizona, California, The Paha Sapa, Guantanamo............


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

... yeah the list goes on Greg F. ..... Texas, they did take by force though.

in regards to the statement ... ""I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Yup ... those are my words, not Meirs's ... I really don't give a rat's ass what she said,. What she said is meaningless, it was years ago, she's dead and gone, it's all in the past ... just like "remember the Alamo" is meaningless.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Actually, no, Ruth, I was working off of McGrath's post about Israel's role in the early support of Hamas as a counterforce against Arafat's and others' secular Palestinian nationalist movements.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Damn! Going to have to agree with DonT.

Er - Heric - WTF? You argue that it is just and proportionate for an army to invade a country and kill hundreds because an extremist minority there attack your country and hill twelve - and that this is more justified than for an army to kill hundreds out of a population from which some have killed twelve? The invasion itself justifies the killing of hundreds?

I must be missing part of your logic, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Guest wrote: "I do not support rocket fire at Israeli civilians, but I think that there is a good chance that there wouldn't be any rocket fire at Israeli citizens if the Israeli goverment stopped its brutal occupation/blockade of land that belongs to Palestine under international law"

The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians. What they got in return was regular rocket fire and Hamas rhetoric calling for Israel's complete destruction. The Gazan's need and demand supplies from Israel and then Hamas sends rockets as their thank you note. They constantly bite the hand that is required to feed them. Seems kind of counter productive don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

"The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians" Catch yourself on man, the Jews STOLE the bloody land in the first place, not hard to see where you come from. Go biol your head of something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

On todays BBC News[3pm]an ex-Jewish Air Force Captain Shapiro was strong in his condemnation of the Israeli Foreign Minister.
Captain Shapiro stated that he lived close by the Gaza Strip and he was of the opinion that the Israeli over-reaction will achieve nothing, he went on to say that it would make matters worse, also he equated Israels response as a war crime.
This statement by Capt Shapiro was in direct contrast to the lady Foreign Minister who gave a near perfect impression of a nazi propaganda Minister.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

Yes, Richard, you missed the main point probably because it was too abbreviated. I never said anything was just or even proportionate – this is a problem far beyond me. I only pointed out that it is incorrect to suggest or imply, even by contrasts or opposites, that if the Israelis suffered twelve dead, they gain the right to kill "only" 1 or 12 or 24 or 36 Gazans. If you start with that premise, you'll go off on a tangent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM

Sara Roy, a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University, discusses the economic reality in Gaza and the West Bank and its effect on Palestinian behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Dr. Roy explodes the myth that Israel pulling the settlers and troops out of Gaza ended Israel's imprisonment of the people of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

Sorry, Heric, but what is your point? Is it that it is not permissible to kill 300 in revenge for 12, but it is permissible to invade and that if that kills 300 then it is all right? Or to kill 300 to stop anyone killing another 12, or what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

"That what can be justified in a world with wars should be judged on the objectives and their feasibility." (heric)

That's about as straightforward a rewording of "Might Makes Right" as I've seen in a while. But it begs the question. And of course it equally and oppositely justifies whatever Hamas has done, too. And it's such an efficient way of saving on ethics. ;-(

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

Texas? No, not really. Texas defeated Mexico (which had won independence from Spain about 15 years earlier) in a revolution of its own in 1836. Many, perhaps most, of the participants on the Texian side were immigrants from the US, but many (including a number of those who died in the Alamo) were Spanish. Guantanamo? No, not at all. The US enclave at Guantanamo Bay is held under a lease - the validity of which is disputed by the current Cuban government, of course. New Mexico, Arizona and California? Yes, probably. These areas were taken by the US in the War with Mexico in 1846-1848 and ceded to the US in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...kinda like Quebec, eh? The Paha Sapa? No more so than any other region seized from the Indians in violation of a valid treaty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

Yes good point on feasibility implying that might makes right but plug all your ethical arguments into objectives and human costs, not into retribution measures. When you guys have the ethics worked out I'll be glad to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

I join in Mark's prayer "for a quick end to hostilities and a peaceful resolution to the conflict" but I would substitute "FINAL" for the word "QUICK."

Negotiating a peace has, for the last 60 years only dragged out the fight. Better to get this thing decided. Let one side win and the other loose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Texas ... well Art, when you look at it Texas was Mexican territory literally taken over by the U.S. who stratigically promoted immigration to that Mexican territory ... sure, some Mexicans died fighting along side those immigrants from the U.S. but a lot of Mexicans died fightng to retain that territory which was legally and rightfully theirs.

It's a crazy world ... but why look back.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Well, I didn't bring it up, but you really should read a little history. Texas/Tejas was an separate entity under Spanish rule, but the new Mexican government incorporated it into the next state south (Coajila) and the state capitol was moved south about 500 miles when Mexico gained its independence. Immigration from the US was encouraged, because very few Mexicans wanted to move to the far frontier. Most of the agreements with immigrants were abrogated in 1830, which is what eventually led to the Texas War of Independence. Texas was incorporated into the US about 10 years after its war with Mexico, and it was the failure of the US and Mexico to agree on its southern boundary which precipitated the Mexican-American War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

hey art .... after the Mexican War of Independance Tejas became part of the mew country of Mexico ... I think the guys below in that link would argue with you that Texas is actually now U.S. occupied Mexico ..

we want Tejas given back to it's rightful owners !


biLL   :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

artbrooks...you are correct about Texas but wrong about California.

Californians, who were mostly Americans Indians, were oppressed by the Spanish and could do little about it. When the Spanish allowed Mexico to have it's freedom in 1821, the Californians wanted nothing to do with the corrupt and incompetent Mexican government. California eventually declared independence and applied to the US for statehood.
The Texas Republic was actually refused statehood the first try and had to apply a second time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

The earliest recorded history of the area is the Bible. (No, I don't believe everything in it.) One of the earliest recorded fights over that land was the Battle of Jerhico. The Bible says that the Jews won but it seems the fight continues after thousands and thousands of years. It is time to put a desire for peace above a desire for lost land or revenge or this will never end! Even on this thread people seem to take sides on who stole the land from who. Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end. As noted earlier in this thread the Bible names another battle there that has yet to be fought. Lets hope that never comes to pass!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

Forget the past and move forward with a different outlook or this will never end.

William Fauklner put it more realistically "The past is never dead. It's not even past." And the fact that Obama is fond of that quote is perhaps a hopeful sign that he isn't wedded to a Year Zero fantasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

It's not about the past for the Palestinians. It's about whether or not they will be allowed to remain living in the land of their ancestors, and whether or not, if they do remain their, they will be allowed to have any rights, and be allowed to live as human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM

Well how many of us are allowed to remain living in the land of our ancestors? My own people were kicked off their land and forced to be refugees to a foreign shore 175 years ago. I don't dedicate my life to killing descendants of those who did the deed. The big problem as I see it is that neighbouring countries refuse to absorb these poor souls. To leave people in refugee camps for 60 years is a crime in its own right. Isreal will continue to exist, but it should be within its pre 1967 territory. The west bank and Gaza Strip could be aided internationally and perhaps would be if the people accepted peace. The neighbouring countries could absorb any overflow into a culture similar to their own. Every damn bannana republic in the middle east is using these people as pawns! Without education other than poisoning the minds of the people the religious leaders are grinding their own ax also. As long as people call for revenge,and revenge again, another eye for another eye, this can never end. The priority is to make it end; not right every wrong committed by both sides over thousands of years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

You nailed it Sandy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Yes ... right on Sandy !

"The Past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

the opening sentence from the novel The Go Between by by L.P.Hartley

I have always liked that line and as I say, move on from the past, the future is about getting to know and understand better.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

If we were currently being kicked off the land of our ancestors, I think we would all fight it. Hell, even if we were being kicked off the land our ancestors stole from the indigenous peoples (in the case of those of us who live in such places), we would fight that, too. All of us.

It's not about whether or not their ancestors got kicked out of their lands. It's about the people who are there now who are currently being kicked off their lands. And anyone who says they wouldn't fight the kind of treatment the Palestinians are receiving at the hands of the Israeli government is a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:51 AM

Maybe in a few years time we will see television programmes, films and books called "The Diary of Anne in Gaza".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:22 AM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Then why don't you go back to the land of your ancestors and return Maine to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

One of the tragedies in the Palestenian issue is why hasn't the international community (and yes that includes neigbouring mid-east countries) opened their immigration doors (en mass) to the Palestinians. This would certainly allow them to escape their hell hole of an existance. I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity.

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:39 AM

clarification ... "I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity." .... I meant Palestinians would take the opportunity to immigrate.

BTW .... in regards to this Israeli / Palestinian issue ... in recent separate discussions with a Syrian and Jordanian .. both have replied in some retrospect that the Palestinians are caught in between a rock and a hard place ... the Hamas and Israel .... both have nothing good at all to say about the Hamas ... basically they felt they are thugs, who reign way to harshly and terrorize their own people ... both implied that they understand Israel's stance on self defence but do admit that it is heavy handed in responding .... the Jordanian blames the U.S. for most of the conflict. ... just posting this to provide a non news network mid-eastern view of what the hell is going on.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

The Golda Meir quote is a bit disputed and turns up in various forms, but the variants quoted here are all wrong in a vital point. If one knows Meir and history, it is very obvious she never would have phrased it that way:

Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.


And, on that point, she was correct. After Islam was established, the Arabs sent their people into most of their known world to defeat their enemies, take their land, and spread Islam.

Spain (and much of southern Europ)e were victims, not just the Jewish people who have owned the Holy Land (aka: Palistine) for thousands of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardebruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

"but it should be within its pre 1967 territory"

Why 1967? Because that was when the Arab nations lost the most territory?

WHy not 1948? or 1923? Or even 1921, before TransJordan was broken off as the Arab Moslim Homeland???


http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Why should Israel accept the loss of Jeruiselum, which thay had no access to before 1967 ( when under Arab control) and which the Arabs have had access to since then under Israeli control?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

> Ham, what's your point? I had nothing to do with what others did to the natives. All I know is, I was born here and have lived here all my life, (Up until now). If you know your history, you know that the natives fought like hell to repel the invaders, as they damn well had every right to.One of my ancestors was killed by a white man while defending an Indian.

Now, some of my ancestors came from Scandinavia, others from France and still others from England. Which place should I choose to "go back to" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

There is no reason for the world community to take in all of the Palestinians who are currently living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. There is no reason why they shouldn't stay right where they are and be allowed to live in freedom. What is being done to them is a crime, and it's this crime that the world community should be working to stop, not the ability of the Palestinians to continue to be Palestinians. Once the last Palestinian is gone, Israel will have successfully committed a total genocide of an entire people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

When a people are threatened, they will do anything they have to to avoid being wiped out. When the US government adopted a plan to eradicate the plains Indians they fought back with barbaric methods. We did the same thing in WW2 with the atom bomb, and Israel is doing it to the Arabs.

Natural selection in action. Survival of the fittest if you will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Let's see...a man drags a girl into the bushes at knife point and rapes her. Total time of crime: ten minutes.

When the perp is convicted, he gets ten years in prison.

His lawyer screams that the sentence is disproportionate.

What does he expect, ten minutes in prison?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

That argument about people being threatened is much more accurate when applied to the Palestinian response to their total subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and slow starvation at the hands of the Israeli government. The Palestinians have as much right to defend themselves as anyone else in the world. Except in the minds of the people who refuse to see them as human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

The recent-term cease fire was repeatedly violated by the firing of literally thousands of potentially lethal rockets across the border of Israel.

Seems to me there is plenty of opprtunity for Palestine to press its case in a more articulate way than firing rockets.

Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

"Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?"

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

Watch that video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. Hamas resumed the rocket attacks because Israel did not end the blockade of Gaza as it had agreed to do in the terms of the cease fire. Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death. Starving an entire population is a deliberate targeting of civilians. The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

" Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death."

It seems to me to be a slight exageration, when Jamas has no problem bringing in arms and explosives through the tunnels from EGYPT that GAZA has control over.

I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves. "


But you imply that Israel DOES NOT???


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

interesting point BB ...

"I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children. "

Which brings us back to that staetment ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Hamas made a specific decision that Gqzans should eat explosives, not food. THAT is what they brought in throuh the tunnels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

The people of Gaza are too numerous to feed by smuggling food in through tunnels. They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn. It is not at all an exaggeration to say that Israel is literally starving the people of Gaza to death.

Starving an entire civilian population is not a form of defense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Yet Israelis do not have the right to defend themselves, according to CarolC


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. It explains the economics of the situation in Gaza and it shows why it is Israel that is starving the Gazans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is NOT a form of defense, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

Hamas would not be firing those rockets if Israel had honored it's obligation under the terms of the cease fire and ended the blockade of Gaza. The rockets are a defensive act in response to Israel's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Gaza. If the Gazans had the kind of precision weaponry that would allow them to be more precise about whom they target, I'm sure they would be happy to use them against Israeli military targets. Under the circumstances, they are using what they can get.

Maybe the US should provide Hamas with smart weaponry, as we're doing for the Israelis, so Hamas can be more precise about whom their defensive weapons hit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

"They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn."

The cost of the rockets and explosives would be more than enough to feed them, if they wanted to feed themselves more than they wanted to kill Jews.

Are you saying they can bring in tons of explosives and arms, and NOT bring in an equal weight of food? Or medicines?

That they can smuggle in fighters to kill ( bith Jews and anyone who does not agree with then, like Fatah) but cannot bring in doctors?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Art ... Gaza has been under Israeli and Egyptian blockade since a violent Hamas takeover in June 2007. The tunnels have helped Hamas stay in power by relieving shortages."

palestinians / egyprions clash at border

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?


I'm Jewish, and I know many Palestinians in Canada, both in Toronto, where I live, and in Montreal, where I grew up and still spend much time. I just checked with a Palestinian friend I know through my Jewish-Palestinian dialogue group and she said there are 30,000+ Palestinians in Canada; mostly in major cities like Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

The cost of the weapons would hardly feed the civilian population of Gaza. The cost of the weapons would not even come close to providing for the basic needs of the people of Gaza. It might feed them for a very short period of time, but it would not sustain them over the long run. And since there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire, especially since the only people who were effected by the blockade were civilians, and since the government of Israel agreed to end the blockade under the terms of the cease fire, such a blockade was an act of war on the part of the government of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

CarolC,

I can just as easily claim that

"A complete carpet bombing of the launch sites of the rockets are a defensive act in response to Hamas's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Israel."


Yet please note that Israel is targeting MILITARY targets, and has NOT carpet bombed, as Hamas would have if it had the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

The blockade of Gaza preceded the takeover of Gaza by Hamas. It effectively started when the Oslo agreement took effect. Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

I have not expressed an opinion about Israel's current bombing campaign in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

"there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire,"

The blockade was imnposed after the violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas, who proceded to launch attacks ( rockets) against Israel. The ceasefire was supposed to apply to BOTH SIDES, Carol: Please show me any time period when Hamas was NOT launching those rockets. Israel waited several days after HAMAS unilateraly declared the ceasefire over, asking that the rockets be stopped BEFORE the present series of attacks. Hamas chose to continue the rockets, and is still continuing them.

The blood of the innocent civilians on both sides are on Hamas, and their supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Thanks for that C Ham .... having lived and worked in Toronto up until 10 years ago I never met any Palestinians here in Canada ..... I didn't realize there are that many ...... I'm sure given the opportunity many more would if they could would immigrate here ..... it would be good I'm sure ... I currently live in Saint John and there has been an influx of immigrants from the mid-east coming in, small but growing .... enough that there is now a mideast cafe. Never have encountered any hatred or strong animosity towards Israel or towards my own Jewish (part) heritage.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. The blockade of Gaza was in effect long before Hamas took power in Gaza. The blockade was tightened after Hamas' takeover, but it was already in place long before that. That's one of the main reasons Hamas was elected in the first place. The people of Gaza knew from experience that Fatah would not or could not get the blockade ended, so they decided to give Hamas a try to see if they would be successful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire. After the cease fire expired, and Israel had not honored its obligation under the cease fire, Hamas started firing rockets again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I have known several Palestinian families... I grew up across the street from one family. But they were Christian, from the Christian town of Rammallah. Of course, after they were driven out in 1948 ( when Jordan occupied the west Bank) it became a Moslim town, and the west bank was made "Juden-frei".


But that is ok- Jews can be removed,: it is only wrong to treat Moslims that way.


As I have stated, If Israel treated the Moslims anything like the Jews have been treated by the Moslim nations, there would be no Arab population at all, anywhere.

Why do 640,000 Moslim refugees have rights that 820,000 Jewish ones ( just from the Arab nations) are denied?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

CarolC, I really don't have the time to watch an 1 1/2 video, and the sound quality is so poor that I can barely hear it with my PC speakers at full volume.

Please tell me, since Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't? Why can't Egypt open its border crossing and aid its fellow Arabs? Why is this the responsibility of the entity upon which the rulers of Gaza have pledged unending jihad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

Bruce:

Which 820,000 refugees is that? When/where are you referring to?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

...While Israel Tries to Protect Them

Israeli TV reported that minutes before the targeted killing of a Hamas terrorist in his apartment or home, all the neighbors get a phone call warning them to get out of the area. Some of the defiant ones go to the roof hoping to dissuade the IDF from firing at which point a small, harmless missile is fired to a corner of the roof. This convinces the defiant to get away. Then and only then is the hit performed.

There is no other army in the world that takes such extreme measures to protect noncombatants.

— Channel 10, Israel TV, (January 1, 2009)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

"Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire"


BULLSHIT!


"Ten Qassam rockets fired into Israel from Gaza
Central Asia News.Net
Tuesday 23rd October, 2007 (Ynet News)

Five Qassam rockets were fired at the southern town of Sderot on Tuesday evening.

One of them hit an apartment building in the city, and several people suffered from shock.

Two additional rockets landed in open areas. The Salah al-Din Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees' military wing, claimed responsibility for firing the rockets.

In total, more than 10 rockets were launched at Israel from the Gaza Strip on Tuesday. Most of them landed in open areas. One of the rockets hit an area near a strategic facility in Ashkelon's southern industrial zone, another landed near southern kibbutzim, and the others landed near communities in the Sdot Negev regional council, not far from the town of Netivot. "




There were somethiong like 5500 to 6000 rockets launched against the civilian population since Hamas took over- many during the ceasefire that you seem to insist only applies to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not

By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
Published: Monday, January 05, 2009

The easiest way for anyone in the media to get a scoop is to write anything that is fair and balanced and with respect for the truth on the conflict in the Middle East. That's because the mainstream media, such as The New York Times, NBC, Philadelphia Inquirer, etc., take the usual anti-Israel line, and fail to report on anything that might put Israel in a good light. So this is my scoop for today.

    Ridiculously long non-music copy-paste deleted!
    The rules apply to you and Amos, too, Bruce.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Egypt does not control the airspace and coastline of Gaza. The Israelis do that, along with controlling Gazans' ability to travel to the West Bank. Israel controls the flow of goods out of Gaza. Gaza would not need any cooperation from Egypt at all if it controlled its own air space and coastline.


The question is not which countries have Jews and which countries have Muslims. Although the above poster persistently tries to suggest that there are no Christian Palestinians remaining in Palestine, there actually are quite a few, and they are suffering just as much because of what the government of Israel is doing as the Muslims are. Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be. That's a straw man argument that someone is putting out there to mislead people.

The Palestinians don't have any problem with Jews living in Palestine along side of the rest of the Palestinians, as long as they do it as Palestinians and not as occupiers from Israel. Alternatively, many Palestinians would be content if Israel would complete its annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give everyone living within its borders equal rights of citizenship and exactly the same civil right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Amos,

In 1948, much like when India and Pakistan were formed ( with a good deal of violence) there were about 820,00 Jews driven out of Arab Moslim lands, with what they could carry if that. THEY lost their property and goods. The Israelis asked Moslims to stay ( partially to slow the Arab League armies down) and a number did- the present Arab Moslim populatiopn of Israel shows this 9 the reason i ask about Jews in the Moslim nations). 640,000 Moslims left as refugees, and only Jordan offered then citizenship ( as the Arab Msolim palestinian Homeland) IF they reounced violent conflict against Israel. A number did so, and became Jordanian citizens. The rest were held in camps by the Arab nations and not allowed to settle as citizens.


So any discussion of the Palestnians "right of return" whould be balanced by that greater number of displace Arab Jews, THAT ISRAEL SETTLED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

"it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be"

But it IS the intention of Hamas:

""The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm



It is not really difficult to find such things- like the Israel constitution, the Arab League statements from 1948 and 1967, etc. WHy do some here keep making statements that are not supported by the facts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

So what? Hamas is only a small part of the Palestinian people. Hamas would have no power whatever if the Palestinians had basic human rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.

Hamas is using its own population as human shields, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. the blood of the vast majority of those innocent civilians is upon Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

CaroC, I repeat and rephrase this question:
If Isreal were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state? Would the rest of the Middle East do likewise? Yes BB that would mean giving up control of Jerusalem but perhaps in peace that city would be open to people of all faiths. I am not a strong believer of religious dogma and wish that could be cast aside but that perhaps won't happen for many years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beqardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

DAMASCUS, Syria – France's president sought Syrian help Tuesday to bring a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, while Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to the United Nations for meetings with Arab and European leaders.

The diplomacy drive showed little gains, though, as fighting in Gaza between the militant Palestinian group Hamas and Israeli forces raged for an 11th day, with almost 600 dead.

In the middle of a whirlwind Mideast tour, French President Nicolas Sarkozy urged his hosts in Syria to pressure Hamas to help end the fighting. Syria, along with Iran, is a key backer of Hamas, and it hosts the exiled political leadership of the group and other radical Palestinian factions.

"Syria must help us to convince Hamas to choose the voice of reason and peace," Sarkozy said, adding there can be no military solution.

Syrian President Bashar Assad did not respond to Sarkozy's call, instead slamming the Israeli offensive in Gaza as an "aggression" that must halt.

Assad said he agreed with Sarkozy on the need for a quick resolution to the "humanitarian tragedy" and for a cease-fire, Israeli withdrawal and the lifting of the blockade of Gaza. He made no mention of Hamas stopping rocket attacks on Israel.

In the past, Assad refused Israeli and U.S. demands to drop support for militant groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, saying "armed resistance" against the Israeli occupation is justified.

Sarkozy already talked with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Israeli leaders and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his tour. He arrived later Tuesday in Lebanon and planned to return to Egypt in the evening.

Egyptian officials also increased pressure on the Syria-based Hamas leadership to accept a cease-fire.

Egypt, which has a peace deal with Israel has sometimes played a mediator role between Israel and Hamas, wants Hamas to cooperate with international efforts to end the Gaza conflict, Egyptian officials close to the negotiations said Tuesday. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

Egypt's influential intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, and a delegation of Syria-based Hamas leaders spoke in Cairo on Tuesday.

"The message Hamas is getting (from Suleiman) is that without a cease-fire the Palestinians will be in a grave danger and everything they have achieved so far will be gone," one of the Egyptian officials said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

Sandy,

When Arabs had Jeruselum,from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed acces to the holy spots there.

When Israel had control, from 1867 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Israel has complied with the UN Ceasefire on Lebenon of 2006: The Israeli soldiers kidnapped, which the ceasefire says will be returned, have not been returned.

ALL nations were to make sure that Hezboallah would be disarmed, and no additional military supplies would be allowed into Lebenon for Hezboallah: Starting with 12,000 rockest, and firing over 4,000, Hezboallah now claims more than 30,000 missiles, to threaten the civilian Israeli population.



If you were Israel, would YOU give control of Jeruselum up? For promises that have not been kept before, nor are being kept now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

When Israel had control, from 1967 to present, ALL faiths have access to their holy spots.



Sorry, typo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Israel: Hamas mortars prompted attack near U.N. school

Story Highlights
NEW: Hamas militants fired shells from school, Israel says

NEW: Third school damaged by artillery shell, U.N. says

NEW: Condoleezza Rice set to meet with other diplomats at U.N.

Sixth Israeli soldier dies; Israel says 130 Hamas fighters killed in ground offensive

   
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Three artillery shells believed to have been fired by Israeli forces struck near the perimeter of a U.N. school in northern Gaza on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people and wounding 55, a U.N. official said.

The Israeli military said Hamas militants had fired mortar shells at Israeli forces, prompting return fire, according to its initial investigation.

U.N. Relief and Works Agency Director John Ging said most of the casualties were outside the school in the Jabalya refugee camp.

"It's a very built-up area, so of course it was entirely inevitable that if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said at a U.N. briefing from Gaza City.

Palestinian sources said 44 were killed in the attack.

The Israeli military said it is checking the report. The Israeli government has barred CNN and other news from entering Gaza.

A short time later, another artillery shell struck inside a second U.N. school in Jabalya, but Ging said the boys' prep school was empty at the time.

It was the third Israeli strike affecting a U.N. school in Gaza. Three Palestinian men, all members of the same family, were killed Monday night in Gaza City by a direct hit on an elementary school, the U.N. agency said. The schools were in use as shelters for civilians fleeing the military operation. The buildings were "clearly marked" with U.N. flags, and the agency said it had given the global-positioning coordinates of all its schools to Israeli authorities.

The U.N. agency said 400 Palestinians were staying in the Asma Elementary School at the time of Monday night's airstrike.

The latest incidents came as Israeli ground forces surrounded densely populated Gaza City after at least 50 airstrikes pounded the region overnight. Watch as Israel's forces surround Gaza City »

Other airstrikes hit the homes of people linked to Hamas, the Islamic militant group that rules Gaza, including the Wadi family in Jabalya, Hamas security sources said. Eight people were killed in that strike. An overnight airstrike hit the Jabalya home of Imad Siam, one of the leaders of Hamas' military wing.

Israel claimed Tuesday to have killed 130 Hamas fighters since beginning a ground offensive at dusk Saturday. An Israeli soldier was killed Tuesday morning in northern Gaza City, the Israeli military said, bringing to six the number of Israeli forces who have died in Gaza since Israel launched its ground incursion. Learn what's behind the conflict »

As Israeli forces encircled Gaza City -- which has a population of about 400,000 -- diplomats turned up the heat for a cease-fire.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice briefed President-elect Barack Obama on Monday about American diplomatic efforts in the conflict, her spokesman said Tuesday.

Rice will confer Tuesday at the United Nations with officials including Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, the State Department said. Abbas plans to present a resolution drafted by the Arab League to the U.N. Security Council. The resolution will call for Israel to stop its offensive in Gaza and for Hamas to cease firing rockets at the Jewish state.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Monday told French President Nicolas Sarkozy that Israel wanted a "full solution" to the conflict, not just a cease-fire that allowed Hamas to fortify itself, Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said. "Before the last cease-fire with Hamas began, Hamas had missiles with a range of 20 kilometers," Regev said Tuesday. "By the end of the cease-fire, the range of the missiles grew to 40 kilometers. Israel does not want the next cease-fire to allow them to get missiles with a range of 60 kilometers."
A Hamas rocket penetrated farther than ever before into Israel on Tuesday, landing in the town of Gadera, about 23 miles (36 kilometers) north of the Gaza border, the Israeli military said. On Monday, a rocket hit a kindergarten in Ashdod, about 16 miles (26 kilometers) north of Gaza.

Hamas had fired 30 rockets at Israel by Tuesday afternoon, the Israeli military said. Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida has warned Israel that the militants will continue rocket attacks "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza has deteriorated. Hundreds of wounded people swarmed into Gaza's largest hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

BB as I said my hope would be that Jerusalem would be an open city to all faiths. I know that was not done in the past but if it were in the future would that bring peace? In order to negotiate anything in good faith it requires some give and take on the part of both sides. Somewhere, somehow ther must be a new beginning point!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

Under Israel it has been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel is targeting the civilian population of Gaza with its blockade of Gaza. That is an attack on the Palestinian people in Gaza.


___________________

All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

"All of the Middle Eastern countries as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel within the pre-1967 borders."
If they were all to bring that statement to the UN Security Council tomorrow it would put tremendous international pressure on Isreal to withdraw. Much more than shooting rockets in a fight they have little or no hope of winning


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

"as well has Hamas have said that they would accept the existence of Israel "

Until Hamas repudiates its charter, your statement is an obvious falsehood.

Have you ever even read anything that disagrees with what you want to believe? Obviously you have not read the charter of Hamas, nor their official statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

Hamas has stated that they would accept an agreement for Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders. Clearly they don't feel a need to change the charter until they see the possibility of Israel actually doing that.


I'm very glad the Mudcat moderators have a policy of deleting anonymous guest postings, and I expect that, in accordance with this policy, all postings from anonymous guests in this thread will be deleted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

The Middle Eastern countries have had a proposal to recognize Israel within the pre-1967 borders on the table for years. It's called the Saudi Proposal. I'm sure the UN is aware of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Saudi proposal was that Israel concede its negotiating points ( Jeruselam and the "right of return" ( For Moslims- no mention of equaty for Jews) BEFORE they could sit at the negotiating table.



"I want to buy your house."

Fine. sign this agreement to give me all I want, and I will start to negotiate with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

BB - I respect you, I hope you know that.


The balance has tipped way beyond what is justifiable.



There is only one statistic that matters now - 195 children dead.



I DON'T CARE WHY!!!!!!!



The time to stop is NOW!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

Just waiting for Hamas to stop launching rockets. Until then, the Israeli forces will keep attacking military targets. If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.




Any other country would have just carpet bombed the area, killing them all.


And would have gotten a lot less flack from the world, as well.



Did you read my post of 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

"Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

What about our chiildren, he did this and I did that ...

... this is the argumentative logic of my daughter in the playground.

In such situations I tell both children to stop being naughty.

In this case, 195 children have been killed and it is a disgrace and may those who killed them burn in hell.

I didn't say palestinian children, I said children.


Do you see them as "different children"?


He made me do it. - doesn't wash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

But I don't feel the burn of tears till I consider those who survive but are mutilated ...

... and yet it continues ...

... is continuing ...

... and those survivirs are in pain and in fear ...

... no guarantee that you will survive the seond time - especially when hospitals and schools are legitimate targets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

Why is everyone feeding the bearded troll? Does anyone imagine that they will be the one to evince a damascene conversion - that their particular post will cause him to throw up his hands and cry, "I was wrong"?
This thread is in danger of turning into another WalkaboutsVerse tit for tat. Just let it drop - BB will continue to post stuff from the world as he sees it, and if sensible folk ignore it then no harm done. It's only a web site, for Pete's sake, and it's only the opinion of one man. I really wouldn't think the world's statesmen are refreshing our screens as we type, waiting for the next pearl from the selective cut'n'paste maestro.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Extract from one of my favourite columnists, Michele Hanson, in today's Guardian:

I'm on my dog walkie and I meet an acquaintance with her dog. We are both Jewish. Naturally I mention Israel, now that it is bombing the hell out of Gaza. This is not good for the Jews. First Bernie Madoff, Wall Street financier and swindler, now this. Our name will be mud. But I like this woman. She is personable, friendly, witty, bright. We often talk about our children and families. I assume she will agree with me, so I say that Israel must be mad. They must stop their attack at once, this is not going to help anyone.

But my friend does not agree. "They have to defend themselves," she says. "Hamas keep firing rockets."

"Because Israel is illegally occupying Palestine. It must get its settlements out of the West Bank ... blah, blah, blah." Why argue? I can tell I'm not going to get anywhere. How are Israel and Palestine to agree if we cannot? Clear as day to me. Clear as day the other way round to her, and apparently to the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and most newspapers. None of them mentions the bloody settlements. I watch the news, I listen carefully, I wait for the reporters to ask the Israeli leaders, ministers and representatives, "What about the illegal settlements? When are they going to be dismantled? When can the Palestinians have their land back? What about the wall? The siege/blockade of Gaza? The democratic choice of Hamas? The death of 1,700 Palestinians in Gaza in the last three years since the Israelis 'pulled out'? When will the checkpoints be opened?" Not a peep.

"Where is Tony Blair in all this?" asks Rosemary. "Isn't he meant to be sorting it out?" Yes. He's just back from holiday and he's going to do it without talking to Hamas, and probably without making too much fuss about settlements. I would laugh, but I can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

If there are children there, ask why- and ask it of HAMAS.

The Israeli's have just shelled a UN school killing thirty people. The UN spokesperson said the Israelis have the co-ordinates of all the UN places which are supposed to be respected.

"The Hamas were sheltering behind civilians" say the Israelis. Nothing new there.

Remarkable when they shell such places they manage to kill the women and kids and still miss the Hamas.

It is simply slaughter. Let's stop pretending it is anything else. Are the Israeli soldiers just obeying orders?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

Because I've read many of his posts over many years, and communicated with him over a small number too.

I like the guy and feel very strongly that he is a good hearted intelligent sincere man.

I don't se him as any type of troll.

I do feel also that he has fortified his view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with piles of information which serves as a big indomitable unbreachable wall of logic.

I believe that on this issue, he has developed a siege mentality and as such is prepared, like Israel, to take on all comers without budging or flinching.

He does care about those children, but can't see them as to do so would weaken the defence in his argumental wall.

We cannot show mercy or we shall perish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

600-9.

This is just another genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM

I see the children, and ache for their pain. I wish they were not harmed- but I hold Hamas responsible, just as I would hold a drunk bus driver responsible for the kids he might hurt if he drives irresponsibly.


But I note that there were no wails of horror when the Hamas rockets hit the Palestinian children, or the suicide bomber blew up the Israeli children's party. It seems that ONLY JEWS are hel;d reponsible, even when it is someone else's fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Those were also tragedies BB and my heart goes out to those children and their families.

What's more, the people who committed those murders are criminals.

But for the same reason that a stabbing in London gets less Media attention than a Gunman in Dunblaine, so there is more attention on this than on those.

This is not one incident - it is a massacre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Sorry - the key point -

This massacre is happening now.

We aren't talking about something that happened, but something that is happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

"I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

"Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be." – So says CarolC.

In saying that she is almost correct, what she omits to mention is that that was also the founding intention of the League of Nations. Great Britain knew full well that there would be problems with that from the Arabs who lived in the Mandated territory known as Palestine as declared in 1921 – THAT Palestine consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel; the area now known as the West Bank and all of what is now known as Jordan.

In 1923 to avoid the foreseen problems with territories mandated for administration and oversight by France and the United Kingdom two areas were set up specifically to establish refuge for minorities, the French established the Lebanon and the British broke off 23% of the original Palestinian Mandated Territory calling this area Palestine, the remaining 77% of the original area was given to the Palestinian Arabs and called Trans-Jordan. While anyone could purchase land in the new Palestine which consisted of Gaza; what is now known as Israel and the area now known as the West Bank, only Arabs could own land in Trans-Jordan.

Now this multicultural, secular, religious-tolerant acreage did not suit the Muslims (predominantly Arabs) who lived in the new Palestine and so steps forth self aggrandized "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" – Yasser Arafat's Uncle – He derived his power and wealth from devout Muslims and he wanted those loyal devout dupes to control the country as a means of ensuring his continued wealth – A trait that ran strong in that family going on Yasser's later performance. Hence his campaign of lies that fomented Arab violence on the Jewish citizens of Palestine from 1920 to 1947 – the acts of violence and terrorism that CarolC denies ever happened. What Carol's "Palestinians" are fighting for now is precisely what they were offered by the United Nations in 1947 and rejected out of hand. Had they accepted those terms in 1947 there would of course have been no displaced persons, there would have been no "Right of Return" issues. The other "crack-in-the-plaster" that is being conveniently papered over is that Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to peaceful co-existence, the Jewish State of Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

but I hold Hamas responsible

I dont hold jews responsible - I hold the people who ordered this and who fired the shells responsible.

As I do for all the other shells.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

""I see the children, and ache for their pain."
It's just words, isn't it! "

No Ake - its the vulnerable man in the middle of the fortress.

Excuse my arrogance, but in my view the post to which you refer is a model example.

The vulnerable man is sitting safe and in the dark surrounded by an impenetrable wall of denial on the inside, and blame on the outside.

If the drunk driver were about to drive over a cliff then the analogy would be fair, but that isn't how things are.

The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state, which, rather than try and help the children, has chosen to kill the driver and accept the loss of the children as collateral damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:35 PM

Like I said, with explanation, on the "other thread", Israel is acting like a dupe nation that has just fallen for trickery and is now less secure...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?

Talking?

Cos thats the choice.

Killing or Talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

They're just enjoying the last bit of unquestioning loyalty tat they can hope for from the USA.

If right wing Americans don't trust "muslim" Obama then right wing Israelis sure as hell won't.

If he ain't gonna be for us then he must be against us and all that.

Not to mention that his middle name is Hussein...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Last year Bruce, 50 people died and hundreds more were injured bt Israel's hands on the West Bank.

Now tell me how many rockets were fired from the West Bank?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" - Euripides.

Seems to apply pretty well to this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

They've *all* gone mad.

It's not 'one side or the other' any longer, just a combined collection of soldiers and leaders who have seemingly lost their humanity together.


"Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Bravo lizzie !!

I agree .. it has gone mad ... tragic lunacy

with that I'm outta here.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:28 PM

Can someone tell me why it is that all we see on our news is maimed and dead children in Gaza? Why do we not see the victims of the rockets that lad in Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:58 PM

I'm gonna start this with a shout-out to Bearded Bruce who is acquitting himself nobly in a noble and worthwhile cause, taking upon himself the slings and arrows of outraged self-righteousness on the part of many others. BB, It's twenty below zero outside and I'm reading this thread in order to get my temperature up. I appreciate what you've got to say and for the most part agree with it. It's a shame some of the folks in this thread have chosen to treat you with condescension, but buck up. They didn't say anything for the Tutsis, for the oppressed of Darfur, for the Georgians, for Baghdadi Shiites, but let a Hamas leader get killed while in the bowels of his family, all hell breaks loose. I''d rather not follow that line of thought much further, it'll get me depressed and bring down the temperature.

Without getting into the name-blame bizness, I'm duty bound to alert y'all of the usual: Some of you might not like Israel being there, but it's there, it's a real country for several generations now, and it wishes to protect its borders and citizens. It's the only democratic country in the area, (except Iraq and Afganistan for the time being). If this causes you tsores, look elsewhere for sympathy. I'm proud as hell of Israel and what it has accomplished in sixty years.

One person maintained that Hamas honored their cease-fire commitments, even when they were firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian parts of Israel, as they have been doing throughout the recent unpleasantness. This is patently untrue and simply a means of taking sides irrespective of whatEVER Hamas does. It is perhaps true that Hamas honored the truce by Hamas terms. Just as Two years ago Hamas was executing members of Fatah in the streets and publicly taking apart, literally, folks accused of being collaborators. Peace, government, justice on Hamas terms.

Israel could just be bombing Gaza into the stone age. Instead they are sending their men into harms' way. This happened in Ramallah in 2002 and there was a lot of bleating about it, without a critical view of many of the claims being made about Palestinian casualties, which proved to be overstated and phony.

A poster above only counts Palestinian alleged child casualties and defines everything based on that. They must've been a real wildman during the Rwandan massacres.

Another would be more at ease if only the Israelis were suffering more casualties. Somehow that make it more palatable to this person. I think it is disgusting. It's bad enough that any children are in harm's way, but it would do far more to justice to review WHY they are in harm's way and who put them there.

Rocket after rocket has pounded into Israeli communities for years. This is under Hamas direct oversight and is part of Hamas policy. Hamas policy is not merely one of land for Palestinians, It is juden raus. Why is it that Israel has Christian and Muslim citizens but Jews and Christians are not equals in most Arab countries? If you are accused of trying to convert a Muslim or of defaming Mohammed your life is in jeopardy. And to repeat what Bearded Bruce and a few others have said cogently and correctly, why is it that Israel must resettle displaced Jews AND displaced Arabs?

Abba Eban famously said: "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Israel marched out of Gaza pretty much unilaterally three years ago. There was opportunity with a capital "O". Is the situation we see now caused by Israel or Hamas? I see it as unequivically Hamas.

FWIW, among the crowd I work with, comments run the absolute reverse of many on this thread. It's been intimated that I'm a Palestinian lover, to which I reply, "What do you mean, I AM a Palestinian!" The whole problem is the folks who refuse to see me as one, too!"

Robomatic, proud ZIONIST, proud Palestinian


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:22 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam – You cannot negotiate with people who are committed and determined to annihilate you."

Oh shit - well in that case maybe Israel should just nuke them - as after all - if one is alive they will make it their purpose to destroy Israel.

Your logic mate.

And if you don't think they should all be destroyed then what alternative do you see?" - Guest lox

The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion.

With regard to the situation in Northern Ireland the following had to be done before any negotiations were in any way, shape, or form, meaningful:

- Cessation and renunciation of violence on the part of the paramilitary groups.
- Agreement to decommission weapons in a manner that could be verified by independent third parties.
- The removal from the Constitution of Eire of it statement regarding it's right to govern the six northern counties known as Ulster.

The latter being required in order to set in concrete that the decision as to who "ruled" Northern Ireland would be entirely up to the people of Northern Ireland.

The Palestinian Authority and Fatah have grasped the fact that some things on their side have to change and have come to terms with it. In the West Bank they possibly cannot be seen to deal harshly with splinter groups or fundamentalist radicals - but Israel can (Again a parallel from Northern Ireland; the PIRA informed on and colluded with the Security services to assist in eradicating the INLA).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

"Israel is an offense against the world of Islam"

No, it is the Extremist Militants within Islam itself who are an offence against Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:56 AM

By the way, whether or not any Arabs rejected the Partition Plan to steal their land from them is totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel had a right to take land that was not given to it in the Partition plan. Under the terms of the Partition Plan, Israel did not have a right to take any land other than what was given to it in the Partition Plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

"The alternative Guest Lox is simple - Hamas have to publicly renounce the stated aims of their Charter, they have to renounce violence - then and only then is there a basis for discussion."

Oh of course - simple.

So um ... how do we get to that point then teribus?

Do we wait?

Maybe they'll do it as a new years present?

Or Maybe we should talk?

Or maybe there should be more Killing?

Whats it to be - talking or killing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Here is a useful article by Avi Shlaim, a patriotic ex Israeli Army serviceman who went on to become a professor of international relations at oxford university.

Click here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:17 AM

Everything that has already happened is completely irrelevant. The past is not a basis for any sort of discussion or negotiation, only the future. Until all parties draw a line, stop finger pointing and shouting "Yah-Boo" at one another, accept that what's happened can't be un-happened, and start to work out together how to prevent it happening again in the future, there is no future there.

Jaw-Jaw's what's needed, not War-War.

But don't hold your breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

Kendall,

My overly long post ( apologies to all, esp. Joe) detailed some of the reasons. I will try to locate it an post the clickey to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/05/herb_denenberg/doc4961c29b5ed1a649711765.txt



"The drunk driver is driving towards a well equipped technologically advanced state,"

No, the drunk bus driver is sideswiping cars, and running over the occasional bus stop, killing a few people each time. The police tried to shoot out the tires, and the bus crashed.

So blame the police.



Since Hamas took over Gaza, about 6000 rockets have been launced at Israeli civilians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Under the terms of the Partition Plan, the Arab League did not have the right to attack Israel, so there woyuld have been no refugees, would there.


You can't allow that the Arab League can attack a state, and that state NOT defend itself AND obtain secure borders against the Arab League.

Not unless you declare Jews to be subhuman, and not having the rights you insist on for Moslims.

Is that the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

"If Israel were to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders is Hamas prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state?"

How bout they do it, and then we see what happens?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Play this at full volume, day and night, to both sides, until everyone gets the message!

Send it to every Palestinian and Israeli Radio Station, TV station.

...and could someone 'out there' please ask Pete Morton to put it on his Myspace page, because this song is important, moreso if the people who are living through this hell got to hear it, because it is the ORDINARY people of the Middle East who will bring the peace, not the military or the crazy, hating extremists.


The Two Brothers by Pete Morton

"I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day
Israel give his ball back, stop pulling his hair
Both of you, my sons, I know it isn't fair

I don't care who started it, just stop all the noise
I can see you're two very over-tired little boys
Palestine I saw you kick him, Israel sit still
Let us get some peace now, if you will

I don't care who started it, must I ask you again?
Put aside your anger, all the sorrow and all the pain
Throw away your struggles, clear the mess up from the floor
Don't want to hear you squabbling anymore

I don't who started it, just try and get along
Every time I here I come round here, there's always something wrong
One day in the future this won't mean a thing
One day in the future, as brothers, you'll sing

I don't care who started it, I just want to hear you play
I just want to see you smiling in the glory of the day"



Pete Morton - Main Site


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

Hmmm... UN claims no militants at school.

"Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, disputed Israel's account of the bombardment of the northern Gaza school. But he said that if anyone could clear up the remaining uncertainty, "We would like them to come forward and be part of an impartial investigation.""



CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.



Impartial????

But then, the UN has yet to enforce the 2006 Lebanon Ceasefire ( except on Israel.)

Waiting on the UN demanding that Hezboallh release the two Israeli soldiers....



Stil waiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

The way I read it is, Hamas is not being supported by the other Arab nations because they are extremists, and the other Arab governments are afraid of them. My suspicion is, they want to see the nut cases wiped out and they are willing to stand back and let Israel do it.

Right or wrong, as long as Israel is able to defend itself there will not be another Holocaust.

It is heart breaking to see a little child killed by an Israeli bomb, but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

A fair and reasonable assessment, Kendall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Re West Bank rockets:


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55638


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51022


But shhh... As long as they kill only Jews it is ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.

It is now admitted that that video is two years old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

If Hamas really wants to kill Jews why don't they confront the Israeli army in open battle? It is certainly the act of a coward to shoot from cover and then hide behind their own women and children! The poor innocent people who die by Israel's hand also leave their blood on the hands of Hamas!
Hamas is quite willing to see it's own people slaughtered in hope that it will create outrage in the Arab world. The rockets were launched against Israel to effect that response and Israel has complied. There is more than enough blame to send leaders of both sides to Hell but they are not the ones to die! It is the innocent and helpless and this must stop!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks.
When Washington put an army together they did go face to face, and even though George lost nearly every battle he still won the war. We made the same mistakes in Viet Nam that the British made in America.
Voltaire was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

True enough - but there for every one of those there are several hundred Palestinian kids.

The accusation about "using civilians as shields" is pretty hollow, since there appear to be no indications whatsoever that the IDF is ever deterred from firing or bombing by the presence of civilians.

No one would accept for a moment the IDF claim from any other terrorist organisation which tried to explain that civilian fatalities were the result of the other side "using civilians as shields".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!

If someone starts trouble against an obviously more powerful opponent, they may suffer out of proportion....no matter what their perceived 'cause!. In this conflict, that 'may' be one of the strategies to gain sympathy.

It makes no difference who has 'ultimate' right on their side..(does anyone think there is an 'ultimate' right anymore?)...*IF* you harass the big dog enough, it's going to try to bite you...you accept that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM

Yup,the Israeli cause is covered in the blood and gore of Palestinian women and kids.

Hundreds dead and thousands seriously wounded.

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

On one side is the sealed border, on another is the sea with Israeli warships lobbing shells when they see fit and to the north there are Israeli tanks and soldiers.Above them the Apache helicopters and the F16s are firing at will.

Somehow, when the mass murder is completed to Israel's satisfaction I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate "or having any faith in the western governments who armed Israel to the teeth and allowed them to the slaughter.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

The video which has been presented as proof that there were people in that school firing mortars when it was targeted by the IDF yesterday was in fact made in October 2007 - at a time when the school was deserted, having been evacuated because of an Israel military operation.

See this report carried by Israel National News - UNRWA: We Don't Allow Terrorists in UN Schools


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

"....I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate...."

No...I can't either, but I'd hope they got smarter about HOW to get some satisfaction in this mess...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Israel carried out 40 airstrikes Wednesday on targets including smuggling tunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border, Israel's chief army spokesman Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu said.

An Israeli combat officer, identified as Lt. Col. Amir, said troops neutralized hundreds of explosives devices, including booby-trapped houses.

Residents said 16 houses on the border were destroyed, with Israel presumably targeting buildings shielding tunnel entrances. Hamas had about 300 smuggling tunnels in the area before the offensive, and Israel has already destroyed dozens in repeated strikes.

Fida Kishta, an area resident, said she could hear sporadic shelling from F-16 planes.

"I feel like the ground is shaking when we hear the shelling. People are terrified," Kishta said.

In the evening, an Israeli warplane dropped leaflets over the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, urging residents to flee because of planned Israel strikes. Hamas has weapons smuggling tunnels in the area, and Israel has already destroyed dozens of them in airstrikes.

"Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area, between the Egyptian border until the beach road," the leaflet said, according a local U.N. official.

After the leaflets were dropped, about 5,000 fled to two U.N. schools turned into temporary shelters.

Despite the army's push, Gaza militants fired 14 rockets Wednesday, including hits on the cities of Beersheba and Ashkelon.

Rocket fire has fallen off somewhat as Israeli troops tighten their hold on Gaza, taking over open areas used to launch rockets, but Gaza residents say militants are still launching from heavily populated areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

You might hope it, but its rather more likely that some of them are going to get their satisfaction by seeking revenge against Israelis in general and Israeli sympathisers anywhere in the world.

This article in today's Guardian makes a lot of sense, it seems to me - Gaza after a Hamas rout will be an even greater threat to Israel:

"...from the rubble of Gaza, the attacks on Israel will surely resume. Hamas is too deeply rooted to disappear. New cells will arise, more filled with hatred and bent on revenge than ever. Already there are warnings of a return to suicide bombing, inside Israel and beyond. ...The great irony is that Israel may well decapitate Hamas - only to regret the passing of a Palestinian administration with sufficient stature to bring order..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.


Well they have fled to UN Schools. Makes em easier to hit by the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

War. The ultimate failure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

Heatherbleather, a brief glance at a map might be of value to you. Gaza is bordered on the southwest by Egypt and on the northeast, east and south by Israel. Any tanks and soldiers to the north are very damp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

"Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks."

Much though the Americans cling to this myth, those shooting from behind trees and rocks accomplished nothing, nor could they accomplish anything. What won the American Colonists their War of Independence was a conventional army allied to France who provided expertise, weapons, artillery and naval support. Another important factor in all this was complete and utter indifference - In the later stages as the war took on its global dimension, the British Government had bigger fish to fry elsewhere and basically couldn't give a rat's "you-know-what" about it's errant thirteen colonies. While Washington was losing battles and winning wars the British basicaly drove the Spanish and French from the Carribean, the French from India while bankrupting and ruining the Dutch and secured Britain's position in the Far East - Not such a bad trade-off really.

Yep CarolC what the Palestinians are demanding now was what was on offer under the UN proposal of 1947, the Jews at the time accepted that (i.e basically Israel as it now stands to more-or-less) while the Arabs did not. The Arabs opted for war and lost, odd thing about that CarolC is that that decision freely taken by the Arabs in 1947 was loaded with consequences, which unfortunately the Arabs of the region have never seemingly been able to fully accept. Israel is not going to go away, it is not going to quietly walk into the night, the Israelis are way passed that - If attacked, Israel will defend itself and it has every right to do so. Stop attacking Israel and formally acknowledge its right and the rights of its citizens to live in peace and all the violence would stop tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

The point is...Israel is very much like the USA is in regard to the Native Americans...you can argue wrongs were done, you can claim that they took Texas illegally...you can 'argue' many things...but it is HERE.
Whether Israel 'should' exist is a fascinating debate...but it does, and it has clout .. and friends with more clout. An entire policy based on ridding the MidEast of Israel, (and damn who dies in the process) in not realistic.

But...the same goes for Israel. THEY must realize that accommodation MUST be made to those who feel they have no 'real' homeland. (and something other than accommodation defined solely BY Israel!)

hopeless? Sure seems like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

To Bill
Of course Israel has clout and plenty of it.

It has one of the most sophisticated armies in the world and is a highly militarised state.

It receives huge amount of military and economic aid every year from the USA and those Apache gunships and F16 warplanes were all manufactured by the US arms industry.

Without this massive support Israel could not keep attacking its neighbours.

Why does America support Israel like it does?

Israel serves an Imperial function for the USA.It is its attack dog in one of the most important economic regions in the world.

Of course as well as serving America's interests the Israeli state has plenty of interests of its own in terms of its own expansionist ,racist and religious ideas.After all it was founded as a zionist entity and there are many Israelis at the heart of the state who are itching to get rid of the Palestinians...permanently.

But the situation is not some static one. The Palestinians have not scattered to the four corners of the globe.The Palestinian birthrate is higher than the Israeli birthrate. Israel is no longer seen as the plucky little fighter by people across the world.It is rightly seen as a brutal and savage oppressor of all its opponents whether they are Lebanese civilians fleeing their homes in car convoys or young kids being blown up in a United Nations School in Gaza.

Israel now gets its support mainly from those blood soaked old war hawks in the Pentagon and in Downing Street and in similar places .

Israel was a notable supporter of apartheid era South Africa and could always be relied on to supply some uzis to any thuggish dictator in Latin America. It has a history of thuggish and brutal behaviour that goes back to its founding when its own terrorist gangs hung British soldiers with wire until they were dead.

But things are changing.It is finding it harder and harder to win these invasions and wars.Hezbollah gave it a bloody nose in 2006 and gained massive respect in the Middle East by doing so. The respect was earned by Hezbollah not because of its religious beliefs but because it was able to take on the invaders and beat them back.

I dont know what will happen in Gaza over the coming days and weeks but it wont be decent and it will be barbaric and Israel is going to finish this latest round an international pariah...not because of its religious beliefs but because it has gleefully made war on women and children and murdered them by the hundred ...and things are changing !
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

Fifteen Jewish Canadian women have today occupied the Israeli consulate in Toronto in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and as a protest against the war crimes being committed in that city by the Israeli military.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

""Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.""

From the BBCs World News coverage, it would seem they're growing very short soldiers in Palestine these days.

Funny how there aren't any adult military men on show. And those wounded women sure looked fierce and dangerous.

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em.

Still you can't make an omelette without breaking a few egs, can you BB?


Hamas have been carpet bombing Israel for eight years, and they might as well have been throwing snowballs.

There's no right or wrong side in this. They are both bloody mad, and I wonder if the so-called civilised world is going to sit back like it did over Rwanda, and Darfur, and The Congo, and Uganda, and Zimbabwe, and on and on and on.

Of course, they're none of them important, because they have no purchasing power, so we can't make a profit out of them, so why bother, right?

A concerted effort by all concerned would be needed, but both sides COULD be brought to heel, but that would deprive some pretty big corporations of the money they make supplying Israel with the means to smash their neighbours.

AND THAT WOULD NEVER DO!!

I just hope the NEW president has more integrity than his chiselling, crooked predecessor. I really do.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

I stand by what I posted.
When the redcoats marched on Concord and Lexington a confrontation took place. Shots were fired and the redcoats retreated back to Boston. They were constantly fired upon from trees and boulders by the natives. They had no tactics to counter these methods and all they could do was to march as fast as they could back to Boston.
This is no myth.
Foreign help? Baron Von Steuben, a Prussian, trained Washington's army, but he had no army to add to the mix.
Washington himself held the Continental army together during the winter at Valley Forge by his own will.

The French, as I recall, entered the war late in the game and helped to trap the British under Cornwallis at Yorktown.

As you said, Teribus, the main weapon that Washington had was the fact that the people of England did not support their government in fighting the colonists. Their supply line was impossibly long, and they didn't have enough help from the loyalists here.To King George the third, Washington was a terrorist!
Sound familiar?

Old downeast proverb,
"The smallest dog can piss on the biggest building"


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:20 PM

ummmmm..

"Why does America support Israel like it does?
Israel serves....etc...etc.."

This your personal opinion, I hope. Where DID you acquire the information as to why America thinks or acts as it does? Do you read all the collective minds of the administration?

For that matter, how does ANYONE get off suggesting that they know what the 'true' motives are of any side in this idiocy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

To Bill
The evidence about Israel's role on behalf of the USA is plain to see in the vast amounts of military arms and equipment it receives. It also receives record breaking amounts of economic support from Washington.

By the end of the 20th century it had received some 100 billion dollars worth of economic supplies.

In 1981 the then president of the USA Ronald Reagan broke cover and declared
" with a combat hardened military,Israel is a force in the Middle East that actually is a benefit to us. If there was not Israel with that force we'd have to supply that with our own,so that this is not just altruism on our part"
Aruri , Naseer Dishonest Broker :The US Role in Israel And Palestine, South End Press 2003

It is also clear that from the very earliest beginnings that the Zionists in pre Israel and the state of Israel itself has taken the side of Imperialism against those in the Middle East who were trying to throw out their colonial masters in for example French owned Algeria where the deeply racist "colons" were later to form the backbone of the "Front National in France.

It was the 1967 war that clinched Israel's role as America's main military asset in the Middle East. The USA pumped military equipment into Israel and as the infamous Henry Kissinger explained about the 1973 war
"The United States saved Israel from collapse at the end of the first week by our arms supply....Some have claimed it was American strategy to produce a stalemate in the 1973 war.This is absolutely wrong .What we wanted was the most massive Arab defeat possible ...we sought to break up the Arab united front">
{MERIP Report 1981

There is agreat deal more about the role of the USA in supporting Israel and its worthwhile reminding ourselves about its resupplying of weapons to Israel during the invasion of Lebanon in 2006.

You describe this conflict as "idiocy" but as far as I can see it is the result of a longterm set of policies designed to dehumanise the people of Palestine and remove them from their homeland...but of course they wont go quietly and I dont think the strategic plan is going to work.
ifor
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

"Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."


You are obviously getting figures from somewhere other than the news reports.

Pray tell how you decided on these to make up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

"Palestinians reported some two dozen airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday. One militant was killed and 10 wounded in Gaza City, while an airstrike in northern Gaza killed three members of a rocket-launching cell, Palestinian medical officials said. The attack took place about 150 yards from a hospital and wounded 12 bystanders. The Israeli army has repeatedly said militants use civilian areas for cover."

But then, rocket launchers are not military targets, are they?


"Of the 696 Palestinians killed since Dec. 27, some 350 were civilians, among them 130 children, according to Palestinian medical officials. "


"From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."



The actual numbers are bad enough (NOTE I use the PALESTINIAN numbers): Why do some here feel the need to lie about them? In a perfect world, NO civilians would be killed: But them, when rockets and morters are launched from schools and mosques, the counter-fire is likely to harm those that are being used as shields. That may be why the Geneva Conventions prohibit what Hamas has been doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Rescuers today pulled out 12 bodies from a house smashed by shellfire.Alongside the bodies of the dead were 4 very young children too weak to stand who were waiting alongside their dead mothers.
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to meet its international obligations to the civilian populations which is another way of saying that war crimes are being committed in Gaza by the armed might of Israel.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2009/01/hamas_benefits_from_palestinia.html



Since there is no lack of justification here for Hamas, perhaps we can look at the other viewpoint...

"Israel had no choice but to defend itself. Many in the world's public opinion bash and accuse Israel of using disproportional and excessive force. This is a false accusation. It is Hamas which refuses to lay down its weapons and shows no respect for the very civilian population that it claims to represent. Hamas leaders have not shown their faces in public. They have disconnected themselves from their own people. They have stopped functioning and have cowardly taken shelters in hospitals and kindergartens, using women and children as human shields. "



"Israel is ready to stop the war immediately. Israel has no desire to reoccupy Gaza. Israel knows that it can't eliminate Hamas as a force. Israeli demands are simple, limited and modest: stop shelling Israeli towns and villages and stop smuggling into Gaza Iranian-made and supported weapons and rockets. If these two terms are met, a long and credible cease fire can be brokered within a day or two."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

This commentary by Michael Coren is from today's National Post.

*****
Imperfect, but no bully

By Michael Coren

So we had it again. The world putting on its selfrighteous coat so that it could hide its naked hypocrisy. Israel bad, violent and strong; Palestinians good, peaceful and weak. Instant demonstrations outside Israeli embassies and consulates when hundreds were killed in response to years of Hamas terror, yet not even a handful of protestors outside offices belonging to Sudan, Syria or Iran, where hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered.

Of course the innocent died in the past 13 days, but in the pursuit of the guilty. As opposed to Hamas and its campaign to mass murder only the innocent. Ask why both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank did so little to counter Israel's actions, and may have given tacit or even active approval to the campaign. Because unlike Marxist Mary in Toronto and Jew-hating Jack in Montreal, they know the reality of the situation.

Israel left Gaza and prayed that peace would be established. Hamas launched its missiles into Israeli schools, homes and hospitals within hours. Supporters of the Palestinians argued that few Israelis were being killed so there shouldn't be complaints. Finally Israel responded. One of the reasons it took so long is that it was gathering intelligence so as to harm as few civilians as possible.
So why the lack of balance and the lies in the media? Any journalist who has worked in Israel and its neighbours in the past 20 years knows certain things that are seldom reported. Take, for example, the endearing hotel habits of the PLO. Reporters would stay at a grand venue just outside the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. When they came to pay their bill they would be told that they had been guests of free Palestine, but they would be given a receipt in case they might want to claim something on their expense account.

It doesn't help matters that Western journalists refer to Israeli soldiers as "Shlomo." It means Solomon but is spoken with an attempt at derisory generalization rather than admiration for wisdom. Yet in some ways the Israelis deserve it: They are dreadful at the propaganda game. Israeli officials keep journalists away from their dead and dying, while Arab officials tend to lead them by the hand to the killing fields.

Never was this more acute than with the case of Samir Kuntar, the Hezbollah "militant" on top of Hassan Nasrallah's "must free" list of Israeli prisoners. In 1979, he and his gang broke into the home of the Haran family in northern Israel. They took Danny Haran and his four-year-old son Anat to the beach and bashed the boy's brains out on the rocks while his father watched. They then shot the man to death. Smadar Haran, the mother, hid in a loft with the couple's two-year-old daughter. Holding her mouth over terrified Yael's mouth in an attempt to save her, Smadar smothered her daughter to death.
No photos were given to the press and this incident is never mentioned when prisoner exchange deals are discussed. Kuntar is now a celebrated guest of the Lebanese government and revered throughout Gaza. This will not be explained as we are told by journalists based in the Middle East that Israel refuses to compromise. Remember that hardly any of these journalists have apologized for describing the battle of Jenin in 2002 as "an unprecedented Israeli massacre." It was widely implied, even stated, that there were several hundreds if not thousands of dead Palestinian civilians.

It was soon revealed that only 56 Palestinians had been killed, most of them heavily armed. Israel had lost 23 soldiers, mainly because they had cleared the town house by house in an attempt to save innocent Palestinian lives.

Something similar is occurring in Gaza. It is staggering how quickly dead Hamas soldiers and policemen are stripped of their uniforms and transformed into social workers and poets. Detailed analyses of European media in the first seven days of the current conflict have shown that Israeli spokespeople were given a fraction of time compared to Palestinian representatives. And in countries such as Spain and Britain, the contempt for the Israeli position was almost palpable. I saw the cynicism of the Arab combatants and the fellow travelling credulity of Western reporters first-hand during the Hezbollah war in 2006, when the same bodies would appear again and again in different photos.

The nuances of journalistic language say a great deal. Reporters referred last week to "Americanmade" helicopters and F16s. Actually, the modifications made to these machines by the Israelis are enormous, but surely their place of origin is irrelevant. It is yet another way of making Israel appear the bully.

Which it isn't. It's an imperfect and besieged nation that was recreated as a Jewish homeland because the very countries now condemning it for its self-defence refused for 1,500 years to treat Jews as human beings. Just six months ago, I stood yards from where Israel is now trying to smash the Hamas military machine and asked an Israeli doctor who had been forcibly removed from Gaza by her own government if she was bitter. "No, no, no," she replied. "Not bitter, only resigned. Resigned to the fact that the fashion of turning on the Jews and judging them with a unique unfairness seems to come around every generation or so." The doctor then walked away to attend the funeral of a young mother killed by a Hamas terror attack. No journalists bothered to turn up.

Michael Coren appears every weeknight on the Michael Coren Show, 8 p.m., on CTS. www.michaelcoren.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

"But minutes after the three-hour truce was set to begin at 1 p.m., Israeli forces fired at militants in the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory.

The strikes came after militants targeted Israeli forces "almost immediately," Israeli Defense Ministry spokesman Peter Lerner said.

Lerner had previously said Israeli forces would respond to any aggression directed at them during the scheduled pause in activities in Gaza."





So Israel broke the truce, firing on militants- who just happened to have "targeted" the IDF first, after being warned....

Sounds like there is a bias in the wording of this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

"The Current Discussion: What's the most likely outcome of the Gaza invasion? A wider war? A Hamas defeat? Just more of the same?

Rather than make a prediction, I would like to address the rampant moral confusion regarding the Israel-Hamas war. Here is something from an email sent out by Isaac Luria of J Street, a left-wing Jewish group that claims to be pro-Israel, but also reflects a lot of thinking by journalists and well-meaning people:

Israel has a special place in my heart. I lived there last year while my wife was studying to be a rabbi. But I recognize that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have a monopoly on right or wrong. While there is nothing "right" in raining rockets on Israeli families or dispatching suicide bombers, there is nothing "right" in punishing a million and a half already-suffering Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them.

The equation of the actions of Hamas and Israel is disgusting. But take Jews and Israel out of it. Imagine terrorist group A attacking country B, where A is trying to maximize civilian casualties on both sides and B is trying to minimize civilian casualties on both sides. What sort of moral judgment would have trouble distinguishing between the two?

The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques.

By taking on Hamas, Israelis deserve the gratitude of decent people everywhere. More than that, by sending in troops to fight them on the ground, Israel is risking its precious soldiers to minimize Palestinian casualties. These soldiers risk becoming martyrs to human rights and the Geneva Convention because they are fighting in places where other countries, including the U.S., might have called in an artillery or air strike and been done with it. We should be proud of them and least have the decency to honor their sacrifice.

Finally, these soldiers are doing a service for humanity, not just for the Israelis. A defeat of Hamas is a defeat of it sponsor, Iran. It is no substitute for using economic, diplomatic, and - only if necessary - military means to prevent Iran, the world's primary terrorist regime, from going nuclear. But it should help concentrate minds regarding the necessity of doing so. The Israeli wars with Hamas and Hezbullah are only holding actions. The only way to give peace in the region real hope is to defeat the main source of war and terrorism, and that is the regime in Tehran."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Nearly a third of the deaths -- 30 percent -- are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed since the operation began, the Israeli military reported"


So, the Gazans have killed 30% civilians? Sounds like they have to be deliberatly targeting them, since when Israeli forces kill 30% civilians it is proof that they are....

But where are the demonstrations against Hamas, and the tear-jerking reports?

Oh, yeah, dead Jews don't matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:42 AM

Wow, heatherblether!!!

Just read the article in the Washington Post this morning about those civilans who were found dead in those houses...

In a rare move, the International Committee of the Red Cross is accusing Israel of "fail(ing) to meet its obligation under international humanatarian law to care for and evaculate the wounded"...

Apparentlt, the Israeli miliatry blocked ambulances from getting to theses people for ***4 days***, during which time as many of the 15 civilian corpses died with their kids and/or parents watching...

This is why I say that Israel is loosing this war... Just as the US's reputation has taken a nose-dive over Iraq, this will come back to haunt Israel...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

""I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?""

Just one Kendall. If you are going to keep a guard dog to stop nasty neighbours trespassing, it might be clever to keep it on a leash till you have it trained to behave.

Giving it free run of the yard may be nice for the animal, but it's hell on mailmen and newspaper boys.

I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

I give up.... some of you just simply had your side chosen before all this started, and thus interpret everything YOUR side does as **justified**.

"That mailman MUST have kicked my dog!"

"No...your dog is mean, and attacks anyone he 'thinks' is intruding in **HIS** space."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most telling comment so far:

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:59 AM

That is not my theory. I hear it from time to time, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite."


             It doesn't need a lobby. Just count the number of Jews in the US Senate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM

The UKs Daily Telegraph has carried a story about rescue workers in Gaza discovering a house with some 50 dead bodies inside.Apparently the extended family were ordered to gather together in the house on sunday but then the house was attacked with shellfire on monday.
There were still a a few survivors present but rescuers from the Red Crescent Society were only able to reach the scene today .The site was only 20 metres from Israeli positions and the paramedics had to flee when they fired upon by the Israelis .They had to leave some of the wounded behind.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."


Telling and layered. He offered it up freely for wide circulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

Here's a link to another Daily Telegraph story today. (NB, the Daily Telegraph is very much a Conserative paper - no question of any "liberal bias" here)UN drivers killed during three-hour Gaza 'ceasefire':

Humanitarian shipments into Gaza were halted immediately after two forklift drivers died when the convoy of aid was targeted.

It came as Israel was subjected to unusually harsh criticism by two leading international agencies for orchestrating a level of violence in Gaza that has forced the collapse of essential services.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said civilians were dying because access to conflict zones was impossible during offensive operations.

Both bodies accused Israel of violations of international law.

The ICRC produced a graphic account of starving children stranded for days by the corpses of their parents at one bombed building in the Zeitoun refugee camp.

It said officials from its local partner, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, had tried to gain access to the area since it was shelled on Saturday. Soldiers in sniper positions overlooked the houses, which were isolated by a dirt berm.

Pierre Wettach, the ICRC regional director said, it was impossible for Israel to be unaware of the condition of the children when they were found during the lunchtime pause in fighting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Woolyhead
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

There is no right in these situations, but let me please point out a few facts that might make you think and that are never reported in the media, certainly I have never heard them in th UK.

When Israel left the land that is now Gaza to the people and withdrew 'Israelis' (if you want to read it as Jews), as was reported kicking & screaming in many cases, they left behind some of the most technologically advanced greenhouses in the world. What happended to them? Were they taken over & maintained & used to grow food not only for those citizens in the area, but also to export from Gaza City to bring wealth and jobs to the people of Gaza, which was the intention? No. They were destroyed completely. From this one incident what can we read? That the Palestinians have thier own technology and structure to build their own export markets or that they hate the Israelis & would simply do anything in their power to try to bring world sympathy to their own downtrodden selves? You make your own judgement on this one case alone, but there are others.

As so often happens I believe Golda Meier's comments have been taken out of context. Her attitude was this - how many people would condone sending out their own children with enough high explosives strapped to their bodies to not only kill themselves, but also to inflict as much damage to as many innocent civilians as possible? Yes women & children in the main is their aim, or why would they strike at supermarkets, family restaurants etc.

Are any of you interested in your family history & have been trying to compile family trees? If so I wonder how many of you have found whole parts of your family where the line ends with 'perished in the Holocaust' There are many of these in my family tree. I don't know exactly how many yet as I haven't had the heart to actually count them. This is not the first, nor will it probably be the last time that Jews are murdered wholesale for their beliefs. We are surely the most persecuted single group of people throughout history. Why? You go figure & come back to me with a sensible adult answer, because believe me I and I'm sure many of my fellow religionists are surely at a loss to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad.

What does p**s me off, is the constant assertions that Israel is doing what any country under fire WOULD do, and therefor somehow justified in a campaign of mass murder. One MIGHT even suggest that Hamas is only doing what any oppressed and stifled minority WOULD do, and with no less justification.

The truth is BOTH ARE WRONG, and since neither is going to back down voluntarily until the other is destroyed(which in practical terms means Gaza will be devastated), it behoves the rest of us to STOP supporting mayhem and bloodshed, and MAKE them sit down and negotiate.

This will never happen while the US government pats Israel on the head and looks the other way.

BB, you should look and listen to the victims of these attacks, speaking from their shattered homes. They are so much more credible than your preferred pseudo-news channels.

Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone".

Also the UN reports about 18 wounded civilians left to die after being ignored by the troops.

Anyone with military experience knows you DON'T leave hostiles to your rear, so they KNEW the house was full of civilians, and failed to offer support as they should have under international law.

I suppose that too is justifiable in retaliation for rocket attacks, most of which exploded in open fields, or scared a few goats?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

From this one incident what can we read? That depoends depends on whether what we read matches what actually happened.

Those greenhouses? Israel cut off the water supply to them, so that all the crops promptly died. Without water supplies greenhouses aren't of any use.   Subsequent to this happening the contents of the greenhouses, plastic sheets, pumps whatever, were taken away by Gaza people - you can call that looting or salvage according to how you want to spin the story(shades of the reporting about New Orleans after Katrina...)

See this story from an Israeli source back in 2005/ Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

"Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone"."


Don T,

Where are the interviews with Israelis under daily rocket attack for years?

You claim the Israelis have such a powerful military, then post statments that prove otherwise ( by your standards):

The population of Gaza is 1.5 million (1,500,000). In 12 days of attacks, thousands of bombs dropped, not to metion morters, bullets, tanks, and artillary, the IDF has killed HOW MANY? and of that less than 700, HOW MANY were civilians? LESS THAN HALF.

So trying to kill everyone gets 350 killed in all this combat.

I think this proves that the interviews are biased, and that the IDF is making every possible effort to NOT kill civilians- UNLIKE HAMAS.

All civilian casualties are to be regretted- but Hamas bears the blame.

Or don't yopu believe eyewitness reports of Palestinians?

"The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?


There are also more Italians in NYC than in Rome.

Your comment about the "Jewish voting block" is offensive. Yeah, yeah, the Jews control the U.S. government.

The fact is there are about 6 million Jews in the United States. There are about 10 million Muslims.

If U.S. support for Israel was just about pandering to Jewish voters, it would be gone in a minute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

That's right BB. Do what you always do, and ignore pertinent factors to skew the case.

1,500,000 in Gaza, and how many square miles is that BB. Checking with google maps I make it 150 approximately. That works out at 10000 per square mile.

Not such a surprise then, that attacking over a small part of the border, the casualties are not in thousands, but then you KNEW that.

If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously.

You now claim the IDF is" attacking over a small part of the border,",

so why would there be any problems with supplies or medical care? How do you account for all the destruction, when YOU claim they are attacking less than a fraction of a square mile? (less than 1/10th of a square mile, I guess)

Don, you are not stupid: If the IDF was targeting civilians, there would be tens to hundreds of thousand dead by now. As usual, the IDF is risking Israeli lives to keep the number of civilian casualties as low as possible- AND Hamas is trying to increase that number to the most it can, for propaganda reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:12 PM

" Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."

Not my choice of words, Juicy Brucie. Yours.

But Israel destroys the infrastructure for all occupants of Gaza, not just those firing puny rockets.

This not war. It is genocide. It is a final solution.

And if one is to speak of on the one hand Jews and on the other hand Muslims - addressing the USA of course -

A. Of which are there more in Congress and the Senate
B. Of which are there more in the Adminstration
C. Of which are there more in the media?


The 7 days war was a witty and robust put down of an oppressor of Israel. This is slaughter of the substantially defenceless, who have no homes, no infrastructure, no trade, no commerce, no way to feed themselves or even for aid to reach them. The only choice for Gazans is to struggle or die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Pretty clearly the IDF isn't trying to kill as many civilians as possible, though it must feel that way when your family has been wiped out by them. Just as it's pretty clear that Hamas aren't trying to kill as many Israelis as possible.

However it also seems pretty clear in both cases that they aren't particularly worried about killing civilians, and they aren't trying too hard to kill as few civilians as possible either.

The two sides in this conflict have a great deal in common, taking into account their different circumstances. Ehud Barak's comment when asked what he would have done if he had been a Palestinian was an honest and revealing one: "I would have joined a terrorist organization."   And of course back in the days of the British Mandate, that is precisely what his predecessors did.

In a real sense this has to be recognised for what it is - a civil war. And they are liable to be the worst wars of all, and typically religion is seen as defining the sides.

There's no point in demonising adversaries just because the brutal and horrible things they feel driven to do are different from the brutal and horrible things your own side feels driven to do. And no point in disguising the truth that they are indeed brutal and horrible things to do.

The important thing to realise in this internecine conflict is that these actions aren't just brutal and horrible, they are also self-defeating and futile.

Those hundreds of dead children aren't some tragic price to be paid for Israel's survival, or for Palestine's freedom. The innocent dead on both sides are the very thing that most threatens Israel's survival and Palestine's freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

In these times of interconnected economies and interests and where perceptions can mean alot to the international community, I'd say that Israel, if it hasn't lost this war yet, is on th evrge of loosing it... Israel isn't winning the hearts and minds of goo many folks these days... The story line has blown up in it's face and right now it Israel looks as if a country being lef by very mean people and, frankly, I don't see anything now that Israel can do to reverse the selg-inflicted wounds...

It should never have tried to starve the Palestians out in the first place... The US has treated it's own indiginous people better and we all know that treatment has not been very good...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

With respect to both sides of this arguement, and realizing the generalist nature of my comment, it is time for an intervention. In fact it is long past time. The parties have no ability to resolve the issues, there is legitimacy to both sides, or at least they believe they have a rationale on both sides. An effective US policy would be to place ourselves between the combatants, declaring that the Palestinians have the right to a homeland, and the Israeli's have a right to the same and to exist. We should do so fully recognizing the legitimate aims of both, and the legitimate criticisms of both. I am hopeful that President Obama will use our foreign aid, diplomatic corps, and military to do just that. The causes of this are too shrouded by the mists of propaganda and time to do anything else.

You can't shoot missiles at someone, hide in churches and behind children, and expect to get sympathy. Neither can you wield an indiscrimate axe, slay innocents, and destroy their ability to live with the most basic requirements of life, and expect the world to see you as a just avenger. Enough already.

OK, I am off the "broad characterizations" soapbox and will return to the cave.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:36 PM

"I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?" - Kendall

The supposed "HUGE" Jewish voting block you speak of if all were of voting age amounts to about 2.1% of the total population. And guess what Kendall the vast majority of them have a track record of voting Democrat.

Another one of your myths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 PM

The US has treated it's own indigenous people better

Let's not drift off into American hostory, but it is a releavnt parallel, and I think is one factor that may underlie how many Americans seem to see this tragic conflict.

I think that Bobert's comment there is a bit questionable though, looking at the period when the Native Americans were still capable of armed resistance. It'd be equally questionable to say the US treated them worse either. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Well, McGee.... The movies are filled with Native Americans shootin' up wagon trains and white women and all that but reality is that the white people killed or imprisoned (reservations) Native Americans more in porportion to what we are seein' in Gaza...

And, Mick... You are exactly correct... Israel is incapable of stopping itself... It has spun its retionale and now it is Hell bent on taking out Hamas even if it has to kill every last Palestinian in doing it... This is no longer about Hamas... It's about genocide...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:14 PM

To Woolyhead
I would like to comment on a few of the points you have raised in your above posting.

Firstly the few thousands Israeli settlers who withdrew from Gaza were there in the first place as armed paramilitaries with their families.How arrogant they were.

They with the help of the Israeli army ruled a city of over a million people and made life there intolerable for the Palestinian Gazans.

The Palestinians were restricted to a handful of beaches .Water supplies were grabbed by the settlers and reduced for the Gazans.It was said that the settlerrs cattle were allowed more water than the Gazans.Roadblocks were set up on a permanent basis across Gaza making even short journeys last hours at a time.

But even more to the point it is simply not true that the Israelis left Gaza.

Even after the Settlers were withdrawn the Israelis still controlled most of the border and denied permission Gazans to enter or leave their city by land,sea or air. Its airport for example was wrecked by Israeli attacks several years ago. Vessels were denied entry to the Gazan waterfront and Palestinian fishing boats were attacked if they tried to fish off the coast. Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years and Israel has been pulling the noose ever tighter.

It has also launched raids and missiles against Gaza prior to the invasion causing death,injury and trauma on a massive scale .Medical aid was denied and Palestinian patients who tried to leave for urgent medical treatment were refused permission to leave. Many of these patients died.What sort of policy is that?


The Jewish people suffered the most appalling holocaust at the hands of the nazis during the war. Their suffering was caused by a nazi european ideology that was anti semitic andd savage to its core.

The Palestinian people were innocent of this dreadful crime against humanity.You know they were. They are still paying the price for a crime they did not commit as a people decades after the holocaust.

But I must say the mass murder being committed against the civilian population of Gaza who are being killed in their hundreds and maimed in their thousands reminds me of the nazi barbarism . The indiscrimiate missile and bomb attacks against schools and hospitals; the bombing of complete neighbourhoods and the callous indifference by young fighting men to the deaths of children in front of them is sick. Something is rotten in the state of Israel.

The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

I agree entirely with Big Mick - but I don't recognize his comments in Bobert's statement of agreement. This thread, like the other (parallel) one, is entirely polarized. There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards, or in solving the problem rather than casting blame. I admit to being a historical accuracy pedant, but it really doesn't appear that anyone participating in this discussion is data-driven, nor do they check Fox News and Al Jazeera (or vice versa) before spouting whatever party line they happen to buy. Sorry folks, but I'm out of here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 PM

Teribus, go back and re read what I posted. I did not say, nor did I imply that the theory about the Jewish voting block was my theory. In fact, I said just the opposite. I repeat, IT IS NOT MY THEORY.It is simply something that some people believe, just as, contrary to the evidence, many people still believe that O'Bama is a Muslim.

My own theory is simply that we support Israel because we have a connection through our beliefs. We have no such belief connection with Muslims.

I can't make it any planer than that.
Furthermore, if you still insist that what I posted about the revolution is a myth, offer some evidence to prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

C Ham, I didn't mean to leave you out. The statement that my comment was offensive is off base too. It was NOT MY comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

"I agree entirely with Big Mick "..."There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards"

There seems to be some inconsistency between those two statements.

I wouldn't regard either Fox News or Al Jazeera as that reliable sources of data from what I've seen of then, more especially the former.

Arguing back and forth about who is to blame in general does seem a bit pointless. Correcting what seem to us to be errors of fact has more point to it, and there are a lot of those around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

Well, people are certainly saying and also reading things in an increasingly polarized fashion, and engaging in hyperbole. But I think Mr. McGrath's contribution of 4:18 deserves commendation.



(One might disagree (or be uncertain) whether "they aren't trying too hard [hard enough] to kill as few civilians as possible," but the school incident is certainly disconcerting.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM

Well, Art, what Mick said was that itr was foing to take an intervention to stop this... I agreed... It will...

Answer me this one... Who can call off the occupation of Gaza??? Hint... It ain't the Palestinians... So that leaves us with one other party: the Iaraelis... Unless, of course, you nave another party in mind that can call this thing off???

If so, who???

So, yeah... It is up to Israel to either press on or not... No other party... Mick said it would take intervention... I agreed...

Hey, I don't have an axe to grind here other than observing that it is Israel that holds the cards without intervention...

Yes, when I read the Washington Post today about the Israeli army keeping ambulances from getting to wounded civilians and the Unternation Red Cross portesting the actions I see a very bad PR situation for Israel... The kind that turns hearts and minds...

Like I said... I am not on one side or another... Just an observer who is really pissed off that the US disengaged under Bush from trying to move this very difficult situation toward somthing that resembles peace...

Because I don't walk the the Israeli story line I find being called a polorized or partisan person is personally insulting and a very desperate arguing point...

Reminds me of "You are with us or against us..."

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

I keep musing over ifor's statement that there are two options: Fighting or talking. I'm beginning to suspect there are much more important options: in behavior (and restraint). Maybe lots of little things, like not shutting off water supplies to high tech greenhouses (and thousands of other little examples between these neighbors, probably), are not being attended to properly, DESPITE the talking and screaming and threats and posturing.

I'm just saying ~maybe~ and thowing it out there. This is all still very mysterious to me after a lifetime of reading it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

"You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad."

yes Don T...I realize YOU made the point. I was overly general in my cynical sweep. OTHERS were choosing sides. Several of us tried to make the point, but it did little good.





*back to lurking*


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

300 Up


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 AM

We didn't call it off but the UN just voted 14 out of 15 for the Israeli's to pull out. We (the US) abstained from voting but Condie did say that we backed the resolution & the spirit of it (Then why didn't we vote for it???). Hopefully the aid can now start flowing in. It's a shmefull act for the blanket bombing of so many innocent. Oh, now I understand why we didn't vote for such aggression to stop. When a nation bombs the innocent citizens of another nation under the guise of defeating terrorism it is actually a terrorist action they are taking on themselves. Such is the shape of the world we live in, shame. These actions were backed by hell. Thank God some one has but a hold on them.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower."

An incorrect assessment, as any person with any knowledge of what "mass bombing" means.


ifor, there ARE valid arguements you might use ( though I may differ as to their validity). Why do you feel the need to make blatent false claims (lies) to "win" your point? Is your arguement so weak that only lies can possibly support it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM

"Fox News and Al Jazeera "

Actually, I do- despite claims by people who don't know me well enough to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:28 AM

from AlJazeera reports BEFORE the Israeli attacks...

Hard to argue that Israel broke the that truce, I guess.

.....................................................
UPDATED ON:
Sunday, December 21, 2008
15:24 Mecca time, 12:24 GMT
   News Middle East




Gaza rockets hit southern Israel


The Islamic Jihad group has claimed
responsibility for the attack [AFP]

Eight rockets and mortars fired from Gaza have hit towns in southern Israel, with one house being severely damaged in Sderot, Israeli rescue service workers have said.

No one was injured in the attack, which began at about 7am (0500GMT) on Sunday, two days after the official end of a truce between Israel and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

A migrant worker was wounded by shrapnel in a separate rocket attack on a Kibbutz, an Israeli farming co-operative.

The Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Air raid launched

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid.

Those respective attacks came a day after a six-month-old ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ended.

Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire, but it has said it will begin a dedicated military operation in Gaza if rocket fire barrages continue.

"The scenarios are clear, the plans are clear, the determination is clear, and so are the ramifications of each of the steps. A responsible government is not happy to go to war, but does not evade it," Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said in his weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

oh.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122172946123995.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Washington Post


Endgame in Gaza

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A17

Israel's leaders have purposely obscured their war aims in Gaza. But there are only two possible endgames: (A) a Lebanon-like cessation of hostilities to be supervised by international observers, or (B) the disintegration of Hamas rule in Gaza.

Hard Lesson for Israel

Under tremendous international pressure -- including from an increasingly wobbly U.S. State Department -- the government of Ehud Olmert has begun hinting that it is receptive to a French-Egyptian cease-fire plan, essentially acquiescing to Endgame A.

That would be a terrible mistake.

It would fail on its own terms. It would have the same elements as the phony peace in Lebanon: an international force that abjures any meaningful use of force, an arms embargo under which arms will most assuredly flood in, and a cessation of hostilities until the terrorist side is rearmed and ready to initiate the next round of hostilities.

The U.N.-mandated disarmament of Hezbollah in Lebanon is a well-known farce. Not only have foreign forces not stopped Hezbollah's massive rearmament, their very presence makes it impossible for Israel to take any preventive military action, lest it accidentally hit a blue-helmeted Belgian crossing guard.

The "international community" is now pushing very hard for a Gaza replay of that charade. Does anyone imagine that international monitors will risk their lives to prevent weapons smuggling? To arrest terrorists? To engage in shootouts with rocket-launching teams attacking Israeli civilians across the Gaza border?

Of course not. Weapons will continue to be smuggled. Deeper and more secure fortifications will be built for the next round. Mosques, schools and hospitals will again be used for weapons storage and terrorist safe havens. Do you think French "peacekeepers" are going to raid them?

(more)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802993.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM

"A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It did so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men."

Quote from a lengthy article by "Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (who) served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy" : How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe Worth reading and pondering.

But it doesn't make too much sense to concentrate too much on the reasons why things have happened to the exclusion of the more significant question of what are their likely consequences. Whoever had the greater blame in the breakdown of that imperfect ceasefire the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides.

There's an often-quoted rhyme that sums up what I mean there:

Here lies the body of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he walked along.
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM

"the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides."

That I will agree with you on.


Please note 'BOTH'


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Oh Dear. Just catching up on news after switching off TV / computer for most of the holiday season. What a horrible mess.

My tuppence worth -

BBruce, I want to make one or two observations on your cut n' paste from Al Jazeera.

1) you will note that it was Islamic jihad and not Hamas, who broke the truce. Everyone here keeps rattling on about Hamas. Even Israel says it's 'after Hamas' - well I suppose we live in an era of brand-recognition.

2) there seems to be some confusion in the reporting: on the one hand it states Israel launched an air-strike against a rocket-launching group, no reports of any casualties. Then a line down, Israel launched an airstrike = 1 dead Palestinian

3) Tel Aviv said it wouldn't take any military action unless attacks continued (showing benevolent restraint) but a line later "in Israeli airstrikes" (isn't firing missiles / dropping bombs from planes considered a military action anymore? Then what the hell is?)

Anyway, here's another cut and paste by an Israeli guy who served in the Israeli army for a number of years but has a problem with what's going on at the moment:

"How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe


Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the
Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But
its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions"

And here's the link:

Avi Shalim on Gaza in Guardian

Ok, that's my tuppence, I'll leave the rest to the experts


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

1. Hamas did take responsibility for rocket attacks from Gaza. This was NOT the first breaking of the truce, but it is 4 days AFTER the end ( four days of Gazan missile attacks)

2. "Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid."

different days. The casualty was Saturday.

3. "Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire"

Launching rockets is NOT "holding their fire", is it????


Each of us have opinions as to the conclusions to be drawn from this conflict, and all have the right to express them. They are opinion, not fact- in ALL cases.

Facts are determined not by what people THINK, but by what they DO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

"A U.N. Security Council resolution approved Thursday night called urgently for an immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The U.S., Israel's closest ally and a veto-wielding member of the Security Council, abstained.

While the call is tantamount to a demand on the parties, Israel's troops won't be required to pull out of Gaza until there is a durable cease-fire. The resolution calls on U.N. member states to intensify efforts to provide guarantees in Gaza to sustain a lasting truce, including prevention of illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition."

"A Hamas spokesman said the Islamic militant group "is not interested" in the cease-fire because it was not consulted and the resolution did not meet its minimum demands."

"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas envoy to Lebanon, told the al-Arabiya satellite channel that the group "is not interested in it because it does not meet the demands of the movement."

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the U.N. failed to consider the interests of the Palestinian people.

"This resolution doesn't mean that the war is over," he told the Al-Jazeera satellite television network. "We call on the Palestinian fighters to mobilize and be ready to face the offensive, and we urge the Arab masses to carry on with their angry protests."

Israel's government says any cease-fire must guarantee an end to rocket fire and arms smuggling into Gaza. During a six-month cease-fire that ended with the current operation, Hamas is thought to have used tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border to smuggle in the medium-range rockets it is now using to hit deeper than ever inside Israel.

Hamas has said it won't accept any agreement that does not include the full opening Gaza's blockaded border crossings. Israel is unlikely to agree to that demand, as it would allow Hamas to strengthen its hold on the territory which it violently seized in June 2007.

With Israeli troops now in control of many of the open areas used by militants to launch rockets, gunman have continued shooting from inside populated neighborhoods."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

UNR 1701 Lebanon Ceasefire


"Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;
No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;
No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;

"14. Calls upon the government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11 to assist the government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft;


a. the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and;

b. the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorised by the government of Lebanon or by Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11; "


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Why does Hamas keep fireing rockets into Israel?

This article seems to shed some light...



"The trap that Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni have created for themselves lies not just in Hamas's ability to withdraw its fighters and rockets into mosques, schools and densely populated neighborhoods, where they could probably survive weeks of bloody fighting or go underground. The larger fallacy is the persistent conceit among Israeli leaders that Hamas can somehow be wiped out by economic strangulation or force of arms.

Unlike al-Qaeda, Hamas is not merely a terrorist organization but a social and political movement with considerable support. Its ideology, however repugnant to Israel and the West, is shared by a considerable slice of the population in every Arab country from Morocco to Iraq. Because it is extremist, it thrives on war, the suffering it inflicts on Palestinians, and the anger generated by the endless, graphic and one-sided coverage of the Middle East's satellite television channels. Every day this war continues, Hamas grows politically stronger, as do its allies in other countries and its sponsor, Iran. "

"Though Israel must defend its citizens against rockets and suicide bombings, the only means of defeating Hamas are political. Palestinians, who have no history of attraction to religious fundamentalism, have to be persuaded to choose more moderate leaders, such as the secular Fatah. In the meantime, Hamas's existence must be tolerated, and it should be encouraged to channel its ambitions into politics rather than military activity. That means, yes, elections -- like those Hamas won in 2006, when it took control of the Palestinian legislature.

Those elections took place over Israel's objections, and the outcome caused the Bush administration, which had championed democracy in the Middle East, to lose its nerve. But during the relative quiet of the past six months, when Israel and Hamas observed a semi-truce, politics was beginning to work. Polls conducted by Palestinians showed that Hamas's support was falling in Gaza and the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president and Fatah leader, was beginning to talk about holding new elections for president and the legislature; he thought he could win both.

Egypt was working on brokering a deal between the two Palestinian parties. A split began to emerge in Hamas between leaders who wanted to make that deal and extend the peace with Israel, and Iranian-backed hard-liners who wanted to draw Israel into a fight. Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire. It then could have focused on negotiating a two-state settlement with Abbas and on improving life for Palestinians in the West Bank, while Hamas absorbed the blame for the unremediable misery of Gazans.

Instead, Israel took the Iranian bait and chose to fight."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

You don't give a source for that interesting piece, bruce, but (thanks to Google's magic)I see it's from today's Washington Post. Hard Lesson for Israel

"Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire." It seems likely that there are people on both sides who would have seen that kind of deal as undesirable, and who would have been happy to do what they could to provoke the other side.

That would be consistent both with the Israeli raid into Gaza on 4th November that killed six Hamas people, and the subsequent escalation of rocket firing and formal announceent about the end of the ceasefire by Hamas.

And the coincidence of the impending new administration in Washington and the impending Israeli election would have offered a window of opportunity and a political motive for those arguing for an attack on Gaza at this time. (That date 4th November...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

All true, McGrath, but what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue? Israel tried for ( four?) days AFTER HAMAS had terminated the truce to get them to stop the attacks: THEN they attacked Gaza to reduce/prevent more rockets.

IMHO, it still is the choice of the hardline Hamas ( both by inciting the attacks with continued rocket fire and by hiding in the midst of civilians) to have Gazans killed in large numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

BB

Israel broke the ceasefire on November the 4th.

Military targets? - I don't think so.

And before Israel broke the ceasefire, they had Gaza in a stranglehold, which according to todays BBC bulletins resulted in the deaths of around 200 palestinians who were denied access to hospital treatment when they were turned awat at checkpoints.


I really suggest people read this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

The current Israeli administration is carrying out a policy so vile that only two responses could possibly be expected.


The first is sheer horror.

The other is blind denial.



They are both well evidenced above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Threatens Truce With Hamas
Tuesday, November 04, 2008

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel launched an airstrike on Gaza early Wednesday after its troops clashed with Hamas militants who fired mortars into Israel, leaving six Palestinians dead. It was the first battle since a June truce mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory.

The Israeli army said the clashes erupted late Tuesday after its forces uncovered a tunnel in central Gaza that militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers. It said a special army unit headed to the area to destroy the tunnel. One Palestinian was killed in fierce gunbattles that ensued.

Hamas then fired mortars across the Gaza border into southern Israel and Israel answered with the airstrike in the early hours of Wednesday, killing five suspected Palestinian militants, Israeli and Palestinian officials said. The army said the airstrike aimed at the mortar launchers and hit them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Looking in from the outside there's a tendency to take decisions and events as read, as if they weren't the outcome if disagreements and horse-trading between people in the system with divergent agendae. Some trying to calm things down and avoid conflict, others seeing no alternative but to stoke things up.

"...what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue" - so, with an election looming, if you are one of those who want to force more reluctant colleagues to go ahead with an attack on Gaza before the new regime in Washingtin might complicate maters, you want to make sure those rockets are coming from your fellow hardliners on the other side.

Maybe I see these things more in terms of "what family could survive if a airstrike is carried out on the house they are sheltering in." But then my first memories are of the Blitz in London.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

McGrath,

I think the Israeli Politicians were thinking "what family could survive if a rocket lands on the house they are sheltering in."

But again, to the point: Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

To Beardedbruce
GUERNICA
I have just read your comment about the mass bombing of Guernica in 1936.

I think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing.

The nazis bombed the civilian population of Guernica and some three thousands were killed.It was a war crime.It was shocking even by the barbaric standards of the time.

Picasso painted his masterpiece which now hangs in the UN building in New York and I saw on television some of the delegates hurrying past it without a glance just two days ago.

The point is that the Israeli bombing of Gaza IS comparable to Guernica.

The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs,tank shells,phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!

In doing so they have blown up schools and the refugees sheltering there,apartment blocks,houses universities and even hospitals.

As Gideon Levy has written today in Haaretz the Israeli newspaper those who support the invasion must also justify the slaughter.
And with several hundred children dead,pregant women blown up and thousands mutilated the war gang have much to explain.

Going back to Guernica when Colin Powell made an important war speech before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 he stood in front of Picasso's anti war masterpiece and it was only a hastily plain sheet covering the painting that prevented him from speaking in front of one of the great anti war symbols of our time.

What is happening in Gaza is a crime and those responsible must be held to account.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

" think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing."


I did not say THAT- I said that Israel was NOT conducting a mass bombing of Gaza, regardless of what you say.

Think Dresden, Tokyo, etc. THOSE are mass bombings- 100,000's killed in ONE NIGHT. Gaza is a targeted, very selective bombing- In most cases the civilians killed are in the same location as valid military targets ( which are in violation of the Geneva Conventions by their locations: WHERE are the cries of outrage over THAT?). The number killed is proof to anyone with any military knowledge that the Israelis are NOT targetting civilians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

I can't say that I've followed all this thread & I can only comment on what I've seen on the news etc., but while I understand that there have been lots of problems on both sides & lots of people think that Israel shouldn't exist for whatever reason, why is Israel being villified for trying to defend their own land? If I've read it right then it was people in Gaza who were sending rockets into Israel onto civilians first and broke the ceasfire, or am I wrong? When I've watched the news it appears to me that it's only certain targets that are being hit within Gaza, far from the wholesale destruction that some people on here are saying. Dreadful to slaughter innocent women & chidren I agree, and yes they should be given care etc. but if the people in Gaza are a fighting force why do they have to hide in people's homes, why not sort themselves out into a proper army & organise the defence of their territory? Surely if the other nations roundabout helped out then they could have a proper military force? After all if other countries like the US help Israel, then why don't countries who sympathise with the Gazans help to organise a proper military force?

The other things that I really don't understand is why are Israel allowed to get away with destroying things like fishing boats that people in Gaza own? Also is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"….the blanket bombing of so many innocent." – Barry Finn

Any idea of what "blanket bombing" is Barry? If so please provide details of any sortie flown by IDF pilots that would fit the description. After 14 days fighting in an area of high population density the toll on the civilian population stands at 0.04% of the population – Doesn't look like "blanket bombing" to me.

"The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs, tank shells, phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!" – Ifor

If what you state there were true, have you any idea of what that would actually look like ifor? Take a look at the town of Wesel after three days of what you describe -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wesel_1945.jpg

During World War II, Wesel became a target of the Allies particularly in its capacity as a strategic depot. On the 16, 17 and 19 February 1945, the town was attacked with impact and air-burst weapons and almost entirely destroyed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Oh Bbruce, come on! "Selective bombings"?? Yes, selected schools, selected hospitals, selected apartment blocks. A bit like throwing a grenade into one CORNER (hence the 'selection') of a crowded room.

Civilians in the same location as valid military targets? Gaza is so tiny and cramped and overcrowded that I don't think Hamas (or any of the other militant organisations) have any choice but to operate alongside the civilian population.

And if that is a good criteria, not only are most of Israel's adult population also military or ex-military, they also live alongside numerous military bases all over Israel. That makes them legit targets also, right?

"Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?"

Well, here's one - let it go on record that I protest the deaths caused by these rockets.

But there's also an issue of proportionality here. What if the boot was on the other foot and Palestinians were fiercely attacking Israel with helicopter gunships, bombs, tanks missiles etc., and causing thousands of civilian casualties, do you seriously think I'd be saying "oh well, they deserve it"? Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?

The Palestinian rockets have murdered a handful of people - and once again, I abhor that. If one of them landed on my wife or family, I can't even begin to imagine how it would tear my life apart.
But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? Over the last few decades Israel has been teaching its neighbours how it expects to be treated in turn should things ever swing the other way.

But there's more to all this than just 'who started it' or numbers killed, or a war carried on by hardliners in each camp. There are root-cause issues of justice, national and social. There's the issue of illegal settlements (West Bank) and no right of return for palestinians who left or were expelled way back in the mists of time' (1940s) - or of Jews who were subjects of pogroms in the same area, for that matter - the blockade of Gaza making it, yes, into an open-air prison (i.e a place where you can't enter or leave at will, as we are all entitled to do in our own countries, issues of criminality aside), etc., etc., Unless these are tackled the bodies will continue to pile up.

It seems those taking the same line as the Israeli government and military believe that one dead Israeli is worth 100 dead palestinians, and that military force will solve all of these issues, not justice or fairness or dialogue. How much longer will these war-hawks be allowed to go on wrecking the world before people get sufficiently sick of them to do something about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

Full scale bombing of civilians took place in Charleston harbor during our civil war. After the Union soldiers recaptured Fort Sumpter, General Gilmore got fed up with the rebel guns that were pounding Fort Sumpter, and he turned the big cannons of the fort on the city of Charleston. All it did was piss off the population and stiffen their resistance. That's what usually happens when one side or the other refuses to follow the rules of "Civilized" warfare.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, did we say. "Oh my, we are doomed"? or did we hit back with all we had?
When Germany bombed London, did the British knuckle under?

There are two course of action over there. 1. Negotiate. Stop the killing, and work out a deal that they can all live with.
Or, Israel can wipe out Hamas to the last man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

Hamas speaks for itself on this 2-minute video.

video clips of Hamas


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

"Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?"

From the past reaction here when Israeli citizens were killed, YES, I believe that you would not be protesting.

Care to show me an example from the past to the contrary?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Kendall,

see my post here of 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Look at the entire article- I would appreciate YOUR comments. Is it a fair evaluation? Should Israel trust the UN after the past efforts of that body?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

Nickhere,

You state "But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? "

No, but I do NOT believe that the IDF is acting in that manner.



Do you believe it is wrong to target a civilian population?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Looking at past threads...


Darfur- Tribesmen killed by Arab Moslims.... no real protests

Israelis killed by Moslim terrorists........ no real comments

Palestinians killed by other Palestinians... no comments at all

Palestinians killed by Israelis............. Loud complaints, protests,and moral handwringing



NOW I understand. It is the fact that JEWS are being blamed that is important, not that innocents are being killed. Silly me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

"...is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?"

Well, the goverment of Gaza is now Hamas and they want rockets, bombs and munitions more than they want food.

There is no way that a population of 1.5 million can feed itself in an area the size of Gaza. The problem is the farm land that once supported 200 thousand now sports housing for much of the 1.5 million Arabs who live there. In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female. Gazans have the philosophy of "conquest by numbers".

Yes, aid can come from Egypt as easily as it can come from Egypt, but the government does not want to deal with these militant ****urds anymore than the rest of of the civilized world does.

As far as jobs and industry, why work? They are told on a daily basis that the wealth of the Jew will be theirs when Israel is defeated. They also believe that oil revenue is the birth right of all Arabs, which they are. Yes, Gaza is 99.4% Arab. Plain old garden variety Arab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

""And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously""

Bollocks!! Point to one post of mine stating that the palestinians are right in what they are doing.

You can't because I have repeatedly said they are not.

I have also said, and I repeat, NEITHER ARE THE ISRAELIS!!

Get this straight once and for all. Might does not make right. Never has, and never will.

As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?

NO! They were civilians, many of them children.

This mayhem will never stop while Israel is encouraged by people who indulge them out of guilt feelings from having done NOTHING to stop the holocaust.

BOTH sides need to be slapped down, and made to behave.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

DonT

If you make false claims about me, I am entitled to turn them back on you.

"As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?" (Not militants in the report I read)

The troops that told them to get under cover in the building were infantry- 24 HOURS later the ARTILLARY hit that building. IDF is investigating ( as they should) but this is an example of WHY THE GENEVA CONVENTION states that military targets should not be placed in civilian areas. Another example of the fog of war- IF deliberate I have a lot more confidence that the IDF will punish those responsible than that ANY Hamas will be held to account for their war crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

" Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

...If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested."

So NO complaints, unless you think you are above the shit you dish out.


You remember- this from when you stated that Israel was only attacking much less than a square mile of Gaza (since the civilian casualties were too low to let you claim indescrimnate attacks, otherwise.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing.

And the IDF could very easily have killed far greater numbers if that was what they had been doing.

Throwing around those kind of accusations is just playing propaganda, and it provides an easy escape from the true horror of what has been and is going on. It's an accusations that doesn't have any impact.

What has been happening, on both sides, is that people are using such weapons as they have at their disposal as ways of conveying a political message to their opponents on the other side and of strengthening their position in relation to their opponents on their own side. And in this they have been coldbloodedly disreqarding the fact that their actions have caused, and are causing the deaths of innocent civilians on the other side.

The fact that there is such an enormous disparity between the death and suffering caused by the IDF actions and that caused by Hamas inevitably affects the way people respond. In one way this is wrong - there's a quote (from some great rabbi I think) about how killing one person is equivalent to killing a universe, and it's true.

But we do react to numbers - 9/11 affected us more than an assassination of a banker on a street somewhere would have. And the hecatomb in Gaza affects outsiders harder than the occasional Hamas rocket that actually killed someone rather than blowing a hole in a field. And I would seriously assert that for pretty well everyone, in this case it is not a matter of the religion or the nationality of the murdered innocents, but because of the scale of the killing. Not just in Gaza today, but over the years as well.

Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

More or less my point McG.
Thank you.

Josef Stalin said "Kill one man, it's a tragedy. Kill a million, it's a statistic"

The killing needs to stop before one side achieves statistic status, because for me it's all a tragedy.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

A piece in Haaretz this week about something Israelis and Palestinians have in common If you (or I) were Palestinian

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization"...


The thing is - it's important that we should understand that though we can rightly repidiate terrorism as a tactic, but we should never assume that "terrorists" are that different from us, or that we have some moral superiority if we have never been in a situation where terrorism seems to make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

On the subject of human shields,

Israel has made much of Hamas' cowardice in allegedly using their children as shields.

I am not convinced of the substance of this allegation,

but if it is to be taken seriously then shouldn't at least hold fire with our scathing judgements until we have found a suitable explanation for these reports.

Israeli soldiers using Palestnians as human shields?????

During this conflict ...

and

back in July


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM

Terrorism is born out of a fatal & final desprate attempt at a release from an overwhelming oppression. Had slavery in the US had the means & technology to wage terror it would have done so with a vengence. There is always some truth at the birth of terrorism but from there it becomes a festering wound that sickens. If an oppressor wantst o truly eradicate terrorism it has to start with an examination of it's onw policy towards those seeking relief from them & the causes that the terrorists sprung from. As with the US we have still yet to ask ourselves why we are hated & subjected to terrorist attacks. Until we asked these questions & do something about answering those asnwers we will only continue to treat the symptoms of a disease instead to treating the causes that are making & turning us into such sick societies. How can anyone justify the actions of Israel or Hamas, we should be condeming both, both are killing the innocent. You cannot ask one to stop & not the other, both are to be condemed. But I don't believe that Israel or Hamas wants to stop both have their causes to champion & crusade & the innocent be damned. The only problem is, were I Israeli I would be ashamed to be called an Israeli, if I were Hamas I also be ashamed but I would not be ashamed to be called a Palestinian. How many of each are dying? I see very few Israeli dying, I see few Hamas dying too but I see very many Palestinians dying. That is what the US did to Iraq or tried to claim it did. We as a nation invaded a country using the excuse that we were trying to stop a group not a nation from attacking US, so we killed a nation in the process. Israel is killing a people to get to an origanisation.

Barry

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Ok folks, we have flogged this poor old horse near to death. It has all been said and no minds have been changed.
I think I'll just check out on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:27 PM

pdq: "In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female"

I think I know what you mean - i.e such a high birthrate might be seen as a bad thing to those with few resources to care for the born. But especially in recent years I have come to see the birth of any baby as a source of celebration and joy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 PM

BBruce... I presume you looked over my threads in detail, as I haven't had time to. Not sure what qualifies as 'no real comments' to you, but I'm fairly sure that my protest about rockets / attacks on Israelis by Hamas (or whoever) above is not my first.

Since you don't live in my neck of the woods you wouldn't have seen me protesting about the Russian invasion of Georgia, as I didn't post any comments here about it (as far as I remember). But protest about it I most certainly did.

I found myself at odds with some of what you might call my 'long haired, muesli munching lefty friends' over that one. They generally seemed to have felt that Russia was defending breakaway regions from Georgian aggression. It was yet again one of those 'chicken and egg' things that infest our world, a Russian-doll of wars and historical aggression (no pun intended). Georgia, the big bully of Ossetia was being attacked by bigger bully Russia. Ossetia wanted to be part of Russia, but was part of Georgia. You could even argue it was Russia being spiteful towards the West for recognizing Kosovan independence in spite of Serbian displeasure. You could go on forever about who was right and wrong there, it was highly complex, sprang up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast, leaving hundreds dead in its wake as these things do, before you'd even have a chance to get a handle on what it was all about.

But what I did feel was that yet again the human primate was resorting to violence to sort out its problems. So I protested, for whatever good it might do when people are determined to hurt each other.

You know, when I was a younger man, I often felt angry, ready to aggression - "kill em all! Nuke 'em!" It seemed the best way to deal with life's obstacles - from bad neighbours to truculent countries or people who didn't think the same as me. Thankfully I never killed or nuked anyone, and as I got older I began to question this worldview.

You may laugh at me for quoting this example but in such cases I often think of what Gandalf said to Merry when Merry drew his sword, ready to kill Gollum: "put your sword away, do not be so hasty to take life! Can you give it [life] as easily?" (Lord of the Rings)

There's also the example of the Aesop's fable where the wind failed by force to get the man to take off his coat, while the sun by shining warmly, did.

You have to ask yourself, what do you want? If you really want an end to this particular spot of violence in the Middle East, it will require looking outside the 'iron fist' worldview. Have Hamas and Islamic Jihad's rockets brought about a Palestinian homeland? Do you seriously believe Israeli missiles will make groups like Hamas disappear and everyone live happily together?

As I said before, there are root causes here - something has to be done about what Palestinians want in relation to a homeland. Now before you barge in and say 'but what about...?' let's remember Israelis now HAVE a homeland. I believe if you look into it carefully you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact.

The two main problems are that Israel has tried to expand that homeland well beyond what was originally envisaged and to that end have taken over territories such as the West Bank which they are now settling with their own citizens regardless of the people who live there already; as part of this strategy they have strangled the economic and social life of both Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank.

Once again, before you say "but Israel was entitled to defend itself against aggression etc., and its exapnsion is part of that"

Yes, of course, it was - and is - entitled to defend itself against aggression, but that does not permit it to expand the original territory allocated either. It can defend itself effectively, crossing its borders to do so if attacked along those borders, then withdraw to within its borders. Curently it's sprawled well past the original Homeland allocated. It has to be said this seems quite intentional.

And before you say "but that's why Israeli army is in the West bank, to defend Israel from suicide bombers etc." let me state the obvious: If you want to protect your citizens from suicide bombers, you do not send them out to settle among their would-be assassins, and secondly, the occupation of the West Bank is the cause of the attacks, not the consequence.

Anyway, in short, you can't have your cake and eat it; Israel cannot occupy the lands and destroy the livelihoods of its neighbours and expect to live in peace with them at the same time. If these issues are dealt with, terrorist organisations among palestinians will dry up first to a trickle and then to nothing. Yes, there will always be a few individuals on either side who might actually go as far as carrying a life-long hatred of their neighbours. Humans are not always rational, and sadly both sides have reasons to harbour grudges. How will that be achieved? A two-state solution? A single state where (Muslim?) Palestinian arabs live as equals with Israeli (Jewish?) brethern? I don't know, and it doesn't matter as long as it works. But the sum of violence WILL decrease dramatically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

"Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing." - MGOH

Em Kevin, the Israeli's stopped Hamas and other Islamist/Palestinian Terrorist organisations from carrying out suicide bombings, car bombings and sniper attacks by building a wall and closing/closely controlling crossing points. Hamas and other groups operating without restriction within Gaza then started indiscriminately firing rockets, both home-made (Kassam's), or as supplied by Iran (Grad's), into Israel. Those rockets are deliberately directed at centres of civilian inhabitation and the intention is to kill Israeli citizens, whether they be Jew, Christian or Muslim. The fact that they, Hamas et al, haven't been outstandingly successful is not from the want of trying. Numbers of casualties in those areas have been slight because the Israeli citizens in the areas affected are blessed with the presence of responsible government and have been provided with an efficient warning system to alert the population at large and suitable shelters that are easy to access and numerous. While Israel does its best to keep civilians out of harms way, Hamas as the governing body in Gaza does exactly the opposite.

1. Officially recognise Israel's right to exist and live in peace with its neighbours.

2. Officially recognise the right to life of Israeli citizens free from attack or threat of attack.

3. Halt the launching of attacks upon Israel and its citizens

Do that and you have peace tomorrow. After 60 years it's high time somebody tried it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

"you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact."


I have not found this to be so. i refer to the Hamas Charter, and nothing said by HAMAS has ever repudiated it. FATAH has changed it's view: Note there is no attack on or from the West Bank, under PLO control.

As for the territory, it all depends on what year you want to define borders: If you say pre-1967 war, I will ask both Why not give Israel the results of the war, and Why not use the 1923 borders that were determined when the Arab Moslim Homeland of Trandsjordan was formed. All the other nations in the region were defined then: Why should Israel be any different?

I have NO desire to kill anyone- but I have little sympathy for those who try to kill civilians deliberately, and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population does not give them the freedom to kill that they desire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

You may not have any disire to kill anyone BB 40% of those being killed right no are Palestinian woman & children, 70 killed & over 200 wounded over this past weekend & no Israeli's???????

Somethings wrong with these totals, a bit one sided.

It's no wonder that Jews throughout Europe are now feeling the weight of Israel's onslaught against those in the Gaza.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

McGrath wrote:
Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

I think the evidence is against this. Israel already had the increased firepower and was not shelling, bombing, or targetting Palestinian civilians until goaded by unceasing attacks under the aegis of Hamas with their weapons, primitive or supplied by others, on Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians are being used as a cultural 'bullyboy'. The bully goes into a bar with a much smaller buddy who provokes a fight with the victim. Bully moves in, polishes off the target. The Palestinians are heartbreakingly miserable, but they are kept that way for a larger purpose by Fatah, Hamas, and the other Arab countries.

If the Israelis were like Hamas, there would be no Palestinians. End of story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Israel's campain to wage war against the citizens of Palestine in order to have Hamas overthrown from within is not working, it is nothing more than terrorism itself & is now backfiring with Jews throughout Europe being threatened. Tit for tat is what someone said above. This will go on until the innocent civilians in both states force their own governments to stop devouring their own children. There are no excuses & since Israel holds the most power, is the most aggresive. hold the finiancial cards as well as most of the other cards of influence they should be the ones to bare the burden & make a peace offering accecptable, no matter what it takes. That's right, No Matter What It Takes. It (the ball) is & was always in their court even during the 67' Take!
As far as I'm concerned if they don't make the move they need to take now they (Israel) will now & forever have it's place in history as uqual & as oppsite as it holds a place in history prior to the ending of WWII.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Every now & then, a cartoonist hits it right on the head


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Barry:
What it takes according to Hamas is for Israel to cease to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

What it takes is some outside power (would that it were the UN)to force both sides to behave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM

Ya Robo, what it'll take is for the heavens to fall,,, on the heads of both.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

Both sides will cut there noses off to spite their faces, then the world can look & laugh at how ugly both are. You may disagree & stand for one side or the other & make excuses for both till the cows come home but if the outside world does not demand an end neither deserves to exist. Let them all become citizens of a better place. A call for the dismantling & changing of both regimes might be in line at this point. They both ahd a way out & neither wants to live, so let them die. The mid East is better for being rid of them both.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM

It seems to me that one of the major sins of Israels is not enough people died from the thousands of rockets Hamas has lobbed into it. If a like number of Israelis died from rockets, compared to those Palestinians who have died from the current conflict, would those who blame Israel for the invasion still be as condemning?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM

Sorry, Barry, I can't develop a "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" attitude when I know that one is a democratic multi-ethnic society with freedom of speech and religion, and the other a dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:50 AM

Hamas – The Elected "Government" of Gaza

Hamas deploys suicide attackers including women and children, and rigs up schools and houses with booby-trap explosives. Its leaders knew as a matter of certainty this would lead to civilian casualties if there was a ground battle. Virtually every aspect of its operations is illegal under international humanitarian law – Yet the accusation of 'war crimes' in charged and highly emotive language is reserved solely for condemnation of Israeli actions.

If the IDF had no regard for civilian lives it would never have leafleted and telephoned residents in Gaza, warning them when it was about to attack their area: after all, that also gives Hamas notice – hardly the act of an army devoted to military victory at all costs. Similarly, the IDF's unilateral commitment to a daily three-hour ceasefire to permit the evacuation (to Israel) of casualties, and for the passage of "humanitarian aid", also allows Hamas time to regroup and redeploy for future attacks.

Of course, none of these arguments can penetrate the brains of the superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars who think it's cool to go on marches chanting, "We are all Hamas now". Even if these luvvies might not be aware that on Christmas Eve Hamas legalised crucifixion as a punishment for those who "weaken the spirit of the people", and have been shooting such political enemies in the head when they find them in hospitals conveniently injured by Israeli bombing raids, they still deserve to be dismissed as useful idiots for Hamas, who although elected to govern and look to the interests of the population of Gaza as a whole, have shown no interest in fulfilling either function.

Of course should there ever be future elections in Gaza, the world press will clamour to cover exactly how Hamas apply their new punishment for those found weakening the spirit of "the people" and on whom they exercise this punishment. Perhaps all those superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars, who are "all Hamas now" will pop out to Gaza to lend a hand?

Many years ago now Israel swapped land for peace with Egypt and with Jordan. Both those countries in return recognised Israel's right to exist and the agreements have held. Hamas, Fatah and the PLO have broken, or voluntarily ended, cease-fire after cease-fire. As pointed out there have been no attacks from or on the West Bank, where Fatah and the PA are slowly coming to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained in attacking Israel. Hamas must renounce the sections of its charter that call for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews, because until that is done there is no basis for negotiation - Both sides are on record, Israel wants peace, Hamas just wants a "cease-fire", or a truce - until they are ready for the next time - That approach serves nobody, least of all the "Palestinian" people, high time they themselves realised that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda: 21st Century Nazis
Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda are not political extensions of an ethno ideology contextualized within the framework of a religious narrative. These groups represent nothing more and nothing less than an unbridled commitment to murder, destruction and terrorism. Accordingly, the prophets and ministers of this hybrid religious/political cult preach from the canon of fear and chaos, vociferously advocating the message of religious totalitarianism. This belief system adheres to a strategic plan addressing four specific tactics:

1.        The Destruction of Israel
2.        The Death and destruction of all non believers including Christians, Jews, Hindus and all others
3.        The exploitation of women and children as tools of terror, from human shields to suicide bombers.
4.        The manipulation of media in order to justify and brand behavior, victimization.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/samuel_rodriguez/2009/01/hamas_hezbollah_and_al_qaeda_2.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

How come all you guys come out from under your stones at the same time?
Is aggression the best means of defence?
Don't you watch your TV?.....Children burned by white phos! who but terrorists would use such a weapon?
Hundreds of civilians slaughtered, so that Israel can continue to expand.

When the Russians invaded Georgia you all screamed blue murder!! Before you even knew the truth....that the Georgians had attacked and slaughtered hundreds of Ossetians.

You are nothing but a shower of hypocrits...worse than hypocrits, who can support the wholesale murder of women and children.

The Israelis have no scruples, despite the holocaust, or maybe because of it, the lives of the Palestinians mean nothing to them.

The whole world should feel sahame at what is happening in Gaza...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

"who but terrorists would use such a weapon?"

International law permits the use of white phopshorus as an "obscurant" to cover troop movements and prevent enemies from using certain guided weapons, but its use is controversial as it can injure people through painful chemical burns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

That cartoon is just excellent, Bill!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

Fatuous as usual, Douggie. Nice job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

" ...and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population... "

Didn't you read the links on this post?

"From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM"

In which the BBC reported Israeli troops hiding behind palestinian civilians both in the current conflit and back in july.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

BBruce - I don't think you can really say the PA is in charge of the West Bank in any meaningful sense. The Israeli army and Israeli colonists are the ones mainly in charge of what goes on in the West Bank, and the PA is allowed to get on with the job of pretending to be a country as long as it doesn't get in the way of anything the former two decide. The PA have probably realised that nothing is to be gained from attacking Israel, correct. But all this proves is 'might is right' and does not make the colonization of the West Bank moral or correct.

Not so long ago Hamas was trying to form part of a delegation with Fatah to negotiate a peace with Israel, including the point repeatedly mentioned, Israel's being there. By trying to involve themselves in this delegation Hamas were de facto saying they accepted the reality of the situation, whether they liked it or not ebing another matter. Israel rejected any delegation containing Hamas ensuring both sides returned to what they know best.

But in that instance it was Israel that slapped away the hand of peace (or non-war, at any rate, if peace is too strong a word).

It wouldn't really make a difference though if Hamas changed its charter, There are enough disaffected individuals out there for new organisations to spring up as old ones are deemed to have 'gone soft' (Palestinian politicians suffer from the same problems as Israeli ones, reference to further back this thread) and thus to ensure Israeli hardliners always had an excuse to bombard civilian and militant alike and make things so unpleasant that eventually people will take the advice on the leaflets dropped ("Flee! Flee for your lives!") and leave, leaving the area open to annexation again. As long as there's ONE palestinian throwing as much as a hand grenade across the border, the military guys will have all the excuse they need.

The cycle of violence will breed more violence, ensuring no end to the bloodshed. Israel built up radical Isalmist organistaions when they were useful in bringing down the PLO. Then in turn Fatah was used to undermine Hamas, and if Hamas were to change tack they'd be used in the same way. It's divide and conquer, and we've had enough experience of it here to know it when we see it.

Sort out the root issues and most of the problems will cease. 1967 Borders? 1923 borders? What about 1948 borders, even?

Israel could go back inside the Green Line, evacuate its colonies on the West Bank (they could leave the houses intact and good condition as a goodwill gesture to the Palestinians on whose land they're built).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Israel appears also to be testing new weapons (DIME weapons). I don't know if it's true or not, thankfully not being there to find out, but here's a TV report with more details -

Israel tests new weapons


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

I think Robomatic is quite right to describe Israel as a "dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out".

It has been slaughtering Palestinian civilians for decades at countless half forgotten massacre sites from Deir Yassin to Qana ,from the Beirut refugee camps to Gaza.

In addition it has stolen Palestinian land,grubbed up Palestinian orchard groves and olive trees and corralled Palestinians into ever tighter parcels of land on the West Bank.

It has destroyed mosques and universities and imprisoned ,often without trial, large numbers of Palestinan men women and children.

The Israeli state has demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian houses with armoured bulldozers sometimes with the occupants either still inside or scrabbling to get out with their possessions. The Israeli military have gone on a ghastly,horrific killing spree in Gaza but for years they have been killing Palestinian with those rubber coated bullets.They have used assassination squads to shoot down "militants" and guided missiles to kill their enemies and a few other civilians at the same time.

Israel is a state that is illegally occupying land that is has no legal right to.It has settled on that land...the West Bank...armed paramilitary thugs and their families who were often born outside Israel.These armed thugs have terrorised and humiliated and attacked the Palestinians they live among with impunity.

Palestinians are kept waiting at checkpoints for considerable amounts of time..often hours .Sometimes they have no freedom of movement at all.Palestinian mothers to be have died at checkpoints waiting for medical treatment and scores of Palestinian patients were not allowed to leave Gaza even before the current slaughter .They died for want of an Israeli exit permit.

Israel is a terrorist state ,founded on the theft of an entire land from its Palestinian inhabitants.

Of course those Palestinians who fled to places like Gaza to escape the Israeli military have no right of return to their homeland under any proposal offered by Israel.

The Israeli military is slaughtering away right now but Gaza is a city of about a million and a half people.It has flattened great chunks of the city with its huge bombs and used white phospherous shells against the civilian population .There are reports emerging that the USA is chartering a vessel to move extra ammo and bombs from depots in Greece to Israel.How considerate of Washington!

But what happens when the Israelis get exhausted by the killing ,when those young men are tired of wading through the bood of babies and teenagers??

Gaza will still be there unless the Israelis plan to kill them all .And what sort of rights do the Israeli envisage Palestinians will have in the occupied territories,Jerusalem,the West Bank and Gaza? I think it will as Robomatic says more "terror inside and out". ifor


Someone wrote today that this is probably the only war in history where one side consists of mainly unarmed civilians who are penned in quite a small area and who are not allowed out beyond the guarded perimeter. They are told to flee by leaflets dropping from the air but there is nowhere to escape to.

Every day in this war they are being pounded by high explosives from land,sea and air. Chemical warfare is being waged via white phospherous shells fired by the Israeli military. Much of the equipment it uses is supplied either directly by the USA or under licence in Israel.Bush is an accomplice to war crimes.

The hospitals which are coping with some 4000 casualties suffering horrific injuries including limb amputations are totally overloaded.4000 casualties in such a short period of time would test the most sophisticated of hospital systems but Gaza has been starved of basic equipment ,finance and support services for years under the Israeli blockade.

Hundreds of the dead are children. Many of these children are babies and infants.

Whole family groups have be exterminated by young Israeli pilots , artillerymen and tank crews firing into one of the most densely packed cities in the world.

Gaza is a city built by refugees from other,earlier land grabs and massacres.

I don't think it is going to work out as planned by the Israelis. They can pulverise the city [they have done it before in Beirut several times : 1982 and 2006 springs to mind], they can slaughter civilians in large numbers [ Sabra and Shatilla ] but Israel is finding it harder and harder to win any war. Israel may well find itself having to control the ruins of Gaza with its million plus population seething with hatred and anger at what has been done to them. And sooner or later it will have to get out just as it had to run from Lebanese soil.

I want to know from the Zionists what rights do Palestinians have under the Israeli jackboot? Apart from the right to be blown up or starved or imprisoned without trial?? They are not going away.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

Israel also requested from the US more "Bunker Buster" bombs, they were denied, thank Christ (bad pun). But isn't the havoc that they're raining down on the Palestinian people more than enough already, why would they see the need to rain more hell on a civilian population unless it's terror that they want to shower on people. Israel will never find the rest it seeks unless it's "Rest In Peace".


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

"Haaretz the Israeli newspaper " reported today that a young Israeli reservist refused to cross into Gaza with his unit because of the killing of Palestinian civilians.
He has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment.
Honour to his name!
Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

greg f: "Fatuous?" Me? Sticks and stones ...etc. etc.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM

Jan 12, 2009 0:35 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 12:40
Iran warns Hamas not to accept truce
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Iran is exerting heavy pressure on Hamas not to accept the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel, an Egyptian government official said on Sunday.

The official told The Jerusalem Post by phone that two senior Iranian officials who visited Damascus recently warned Hamas leaders against accepting the proposal.

His remarks came as Hamas representatives met in Cairo with Egyptian Intelligence Chief Gen. Omar Suleiman and his aides to discuss ways of ending the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

The Hamas representatives reiterated their opposition to a cease-fire that did not include the reopening of all the border crossings into the Gaza Strip, Hamas spokesmen said on Sunday.

RELATED
Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas
The spokesmen said Hamas voiced its strong opposition to the idea of deploying an international force inside the Gaza Strip.

The Egyptian official said that the two Iranian emissaries, Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, and Said Jalili of the Iranian Intelligence Service, met in the Syrian capital with Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal and Islamic Jihad Secretary-General Ramadan Shallah.


"As soon as the Iranians heard about the Egyptian cease-fire initiative, they dispatched the two officials to Damascus on an urgent mission to warn the Palestinians against accepting it," the Egyptian government official told the Post.

"The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Jan 12, 2009 12:20 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:44
Dichter: Hamas salaries paid at Shifa Hospital
By AMIR MIZROCH

Hamas uses Gaza's Shifa Hospital as a meeting place and even distributed salaries to their operatives there over the weekend, Public Security Minister and former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Avi Dichter said Monday morning.

Speaking on Army Radio, Dichter said, "On Saturday, January 10, which is the day salaries are distributed in Gaza, several Hamas commanders who cannot come out of their hiding places were given their salaries at their hiding places.

"But those commanders who can move around Gaza made their way to Shifa Hospital to receive their salaries."

Regarding Israeli intelligence reports that Hamas's leadership had taken refuge in the hospital, Dichter said, "Shifa Hospital has long ago ceased to be just a hospital, just as the UNRWA humanitarian and health services in Gaza long ago ceased to be just humanitarian services providing food and medical services."

"UN schools in Gaza long ago stopped being just schools," he added. "All these services and places are refuges for Hamas terrorists and commanders."

Asked why Israel was not acting against Shifa Hospital, Dichter answered that an attack on a hospital could not be carried out "for obvious reasons."

Prevention and treatment? Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin says some of the doctors in Gaza's hospitals could actually could be Hamas men in disguise.

"Shifa is in the middle of a very crowded area in Gaza, and you would have to get through half a million Gazans to get to the hospital and arrest Hamas people there. So that's not doable," he said.

Dichter pointed out that it was common knowledge in Gaza that Hamas held meetings in the hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

"Karam Jaber, editor of the semi-official Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssef magazine, said that Hamas was caught between the Syrian anvil and the Iranian hammer. The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus.

"History won't forget to mention that Hamas had inflicted death and destruction on the Palestinians," he said. "We hope that Hamas has learned the lesson and realizes that it has been fighting a war on behalf of others. We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians".

Egyptian political analyst Magdi Khalil said he shared the view of the Palestinian Authority and Egypt that Hamas was responsible for the war in the Gaza Strip. "Ever since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, they turned the area into hell," he said. "They imposed restrictions on the people there and even prevented them from performing the pilgrimage to Mecca".

The analyst said that the head of the Egyptian General Intelligence Service was right when he recently described Hamas as a group of gangsters. "Hamas and its masters in Damascus and Teheran want to spread chaos in Egypt," he said. "They want to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip by handing the area over to Egypt. They want to create a homeland for the Palestinians in Sinai".

He said that Hamas was not only jeopardizing Egypt's national security, but had also destroyed the Palestinians' dream of statehood. "By endorsing the Iranian agenda, Hamas has brought the Iranians to Egypt's eastern border," he said. "Hamas has also copied Hizbullah's policy of entering into pointless adventures". "


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

A good principle is not to give any credence to anything that any political spokesperson or official says. On either side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper,reported today that a young army reservist has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment after refusing to cross the border into Gaza with his unit.
He refused because of the large number of civilian casualties being inflicted by the Israeli military.
Honour to him
Ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

Honour indeed.

True heroism.

Thanks ifor


In all this talk of what constitutes courage, you have found a true example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Another thing that disturbs me about this conflict is the clinical way that death is delivered by the Israelis.
By clinical, I don't mean precise, the numbers dead children attest to that!
Clinical in the sense that death is quite meaningless to those who deliver it......a detached operation, lacking the sight and smell of burning hair, flesh and blood.
The people who operate the Predator drones might just as well be at work in a bank or supermarket, they just press the button and a half dozen people just disappear!
Maybe they have a cup of coffee in their hands or have a quick browse through the morning paper between shots.
I watch a video to day, taken in Gaza, of the clinical extermination of several cars and their occupants by predator drone.

Who do these fucking people think they are? How do they know for sure who is in the car?....and do they care?

These people are systematically murdering an elected govt...and with them, hundreds of the Gaza electorate, not including the hundreds too young to vote and many too young to walk!!

I suppose most of you will have seen the film "Saving Pt Ryan"

To me the scene which filled me with most horror was not the blood on the beaches, but the knife fight between the German and the American soldier in the burned out house. As the German began to prevail and the knife entered the Americans stomach....ever so slowly.....The German spoke softly to his adversary to calm him as the knife slid slowly towards his heart....this was realism in cinema, and the viewer of the scene was aware that no matter who had come out alive they would never be the same person again,

Death in war, if we are mad enough to wage war, should have that effect, a shattering numbing experience that will never leave the minds of any who have participated in it.....not a clinical video game, the murderous results of which can be viewed over coffee.

We see the burning and broken children, but the other senses are not involved....there should be a sense of hearing ....for the childish screams. A sense of smell for the roasted flesh...and above all else, a sense of shame, that we are too cowardly or apathetic to demand from our governments an end to this massacre.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

"The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus."

"We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians."

Yes, the Arabs of Gaza are acting as agents of Iran and Syria.

Those two countries will "fight to the very last man" as long as that man is not one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:29 PM

What does it fucking matter!!
The Americans did the same to the South Vietnamese
All that matters is that the big world powers get together and fix this....and it can only be fixed if America wants it fixed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

"...big world powers get together and fix this..."

Just how can the US governnment or the Russian government, or any other superpower stop a few dozen fanatics from launching 10 or 12 missiles per day into Israel. Answer: they can't.

Either the Arabs of Gaza have to do it themselves or the instigators in Iran and Syrian must want it to stop,


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...

Israel has become that neigbor who moves into a new neighborhood and goes out of its way to piss everyone off...

Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...

I am terribly sorry to my many Jewish friends but this is where I find myself...

And its a sad place to be... Very sad...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

"Right to the exist" has a special meaning in this context. It means a right to ensure that a particular country will always be controlled by a particular religious/ethnic community.

Now where else has an analogous "right to exist" been asserted as overriding the rights of other people belonging to a country or state?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

Yes Bobert I fully agree with what you have written, when read in conjuntion with McGrath's post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM

"Israel Moves in."

          I thought they were talking about the US Senate!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM

LOL.....:0)...Goodnight Rig.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:50 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Israeli arabs [actually they are Palestinian by another name ] comprise some 20 % of the population of Israel and are widely regarded as second class citizens.

Their already difficult place in the theocratic state odf Israel is going to become ever more precarious as the right wing parties become more reactionary in the coming months and years.

The claim that Israel is somehow a functioning democracy looks a little hollow in the light of the banning and in the way this substantial and growing arab israeli population is treated by its political masters.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM

How appropriate that culture in Israel is being flattened at the same time as apartment blocks in Gaza are being pulverised.

The news has emerged that the America-Israel Foundation which supports Culture and the Arts in Israel is about to go out of business as a result of the 50 billion dollar Bernard Madoff financial scandal which has been unfolding in New York during the past month.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:22 AM

Bobert: If memory serves, Israel was awarded the right to exist by that vaunted institution so many of you look to to solve the world's problems, ...the UN in about 1947 or 48. Some in the Muslim community did not then, and never will accept the UN's declaration. The fact that some of you side with Hamas, IMO, is shameful.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:17 AM

"Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

With all your DOCUMENTED false claims, Have YOU earned the right to exist???


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM

Actually, DougR, Israel as a concept was determined to exist as part of the treaties that ended of WW I- You know, the same treaties that gave Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan ( as the Palsetinian Arab Homeland) and other nations the "right" to exist.

So, if Bobert questions the right of Israel, he is saying that the entire region is now up for grabs.

If he is just saying that Israel's actions have forfeited it's right to exist, then perhaps he should look at the actions of others in that region, from 1948 to present, and tell us who he would allow the right of existance to? Specific countries, now...

Hell, Lets look at the entire world- Who would have the right to exist by Bobert's standards?



Maybe Iceland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

If the UN declared that all right handed people would be left handed would that make it so, Dougie??? I mean, lets get real here...

Yes, I fully understand how Israel was created and can honestly say that until just recently nave always supported it's right to exist...

Does this mean I support Hamas??? No, it doesn't... It means that ***this*** Israel has lost my support and I don't see how ***this*** Israel can co-"exist" with it's neighbors... Even if Israel kills every last Hamas if ***this*** Israel continues it's policies toward Palestians another Hamas will grow in it's place...

But beyond this, I also fault the Bush administrations blanket support of thses anti-human policies... You just can't starve or bully yer neighbors and expect them to like you...

Israel needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Israel's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...

Bizarre??? Well, yeah... But no less bizarre than what we are witnessing and the sad part about it is that Israel's actions will not make it safer, but less safe...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Jan 12, 2009 8:47 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:41
Hamas raids aid trucks, sells supplies
By YAAKOV KATZ AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

Slideshow: Gaza op, Day 17 The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported.

Between 10 a.m. to 1 p.m., the army had ceased all military activity in Gaza and once again established a "humanitarian corridor" to help facilitate the transfer of the supplies.

The Kerem Shalom and Karni crossings had been opened to allow in the aid trucks.

Security officials at Kerem Shalom thwarted an attempt to smuggle electrical goods, disguised as humanitarian supplies, into Gaza. The electrical goods included computers, infra-red cameras, ovens, microwaves and other electronic equipment.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has forbidden the entry of electronics to Gaza since the goods do not fall under the category of humanitarian aid. Some electronic equipment has been let in as per an official Palestinian request, such as equipment used to repair the damaged electrical grid in Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel is considering establishing a field hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat Palestinian civilians wounded in fighting between the IDF and Hamas.

The plan would be to establish the field hospital outside the Gaza Strip, but the IDF is also considering the possibility of erecting the hospital inside the Palestinian territory so it will be more accessible to the Palestinian population. It would be run by the IDF Medical Corps.

Also Monday, in an effort to promote Israeli humanitarian efforts in the Gaza Strip, the Defense Ministry launched a new Web site that provides a live video feed of the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing, through which international organizations have been transferring basic foods and medical supplies to Gaza.

The footage can be viewed at: http://www.mod.gov.il/pages/general/Maavar-Kerem-Shalom.asp. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has facilitated the transfer of close to 900 trucks into the Gaza Strip with over 20,000 tons of basic foods and medical supplies.

According to an army estimate on Monday, slightly over 900 Palestinians have been killed since Operation Cast Lead began in December 2008. Based on intelligence and information obtained by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration, the IDF has determined that at least 400 of those killed are known Hamas operatives. The IDF further believes that among the remaining 500, a significant number are also Hamas operatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM

Let us now look at a small modification to Bobert's statement:


Hamas needs to rethink it's positions... If not, then the folks there would be better served living somewhere else where they could get along with their neighbors... I'm sure that we here in the US would welcome a good portion of Gaza's population and I'm sure that Europe would as well...



If you think not, then please think why not: Bobert is willing to have Israeli's as neighbors, from the original comment.

I can't imagine why he would object to neihbors who launched rockets at his property...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

ARE THEY HAVING US ON?
Somebody in the Israeli Defence Force must be having us all on!

The Israeli military has spent three weeks blowing up women and children and many other innocent casualties.

The shells,bombs and high velocity round have decapitated ,dismembered and crushed hundreds and thousands of totally innocent babies,infants,young children and teenagers not forgetting young mothers and the elderly. The Israelis ,of course, regard any able bodied male over the age of about 14 as fair game for the shoot.The Israeli military has also been waging chemical warfare and there are many who have suffered hideous burns from the phospherous shells and bombs.

After this mass maiming and killing, the Israelis have very kindly announced it is considering setting up a field hospital in Gaza. I am sure the survivors and the wounded will be very grateful and will make their appreciation known to the Israeli medics and their guards if and when the field hospial is set up!


Oh, and Christian Aid announced today that the Israelis have destroyed a primary health care clinic run by a coalition of christian churches in the city.Luckily, the clinic was empty because again, very kindly, the Israeli military warned the clinic staff and patients to get out in advance of the shelling.

The clinic, which included a dispensary, dealt mainly with moms and their babies and had worked to ensure that despite the economic blockade palestinian mothers would have some basic healthcare for themselves and their children.It was an EEC funded facility.

I wonder how the Israeli are going to look after the housing,health and basic survival needs of the survivors if and when they take over the city which now looks like the chechen capital of Grozny.

4000 maimed palestinians will need medical care for a very long time and it may be that the Israelis will need more than a field hospial and a couple of MASH type tents to do that job.

It is far more likely that having smashed up the city the Israeli will leave firing their missiles behind them as they pull out.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

Sorry, still looking for all those posts about the horror of suicide bombers killing civilians, Darfur, Mumbai, etc from ifor and Nickhere....


Strange lack, even though the dead civilians are orders of magnitude greater.

I guess when Arab Moslims kill civilians there is no need to comment.


10 more dead civilians in Bagdad... Suicide bomber, so we can ignore them.





BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

ANOTHER WAR CRIME
Gazan medics have reported finding the body of a 5 month baby girl who had been run over by a 70 tonne Israeli tank. There was no sign of her mother.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST HUGO
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

I have just been reading an article by Israeli writer Uri Avnery which says essentially that the Israeli war leader Ehud Barack had a "socipthic disorder" and was displaying a sort of "moral insanity" in his ordering of the slaughter at Gaza.

In view of the terrible atrocities being committed by the Israeli Defence Force in the killing of hundreds and the wounding of thousands I would agree with Uri's assessment of Barack.

In addition the foreign minister is the daughter of two members of the terrorist Stern gang and although I know people can rise above their family circumstances it is clear she has learnt to hate the Paelestinians in a most racist way.

Are they all derranged?
Hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:09 PM

The website "counterpunch" carries a very pertinent aand insightful article by the american jewish writer Norman Finkelstein entitled" The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza".
He makes a detailed argument that time and time again it is Israel ,backed up by the USA which has blocked a settlement of the Israeli/Palestine crisis.
Well worth reading.
Finkelstein is a hated figure among Zionists and was denied entry to Israel when he tried to enter the country a few months ago.
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/carlos_alberto_montaner/2009/01/gazas_true_disproportion.html


......

Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties in their confrontation with the Hamas terrorists. Those who reason thus usually speak the words "disproportion" or "asymmetry" in an indignant tone. While at this writing close to a thousand Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded as a result of the bombings, the Israeli losses amount to just over a dozen.

Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population.

In turn, Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties. All it wants is to stop Hamas' attacks the only way it can: by eliminating the terrorists and destroying their arsenals. There's no other way to deal with them. Hamas is not a political organization with which agreements can be reached, but a fanatical gang intent on wiping Israel off the map. To achieve this objective, its members are even willing to turn their own children into human bombs, just to kill the hated Jews.

Here's another very important asymmetry. The Jews build underground shelters in all houses near the border; they close the schools and hide the children at the least sign of danger; they treat the death of a single soldier as a national tragedy; they do everything possible to rescue their prisoners, and protect the civilian population from the consequences of war. In contrast, the authorities in Gaza, drunk with violence, fire their machine guns irresponsibly into the air to express joy or grief (causing numerous injuries), do not hesitate to install their headquarters or hide their guns in schools, mosques or hospitals, use human shields to protect themselves, turn to suicidal terrorists and reward the families of such "martyrs" with money.

.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

I was minded to put that slightly differently.

Gazans can fight - and die.
Or they can stop fighting, and with no water, no imports, no exports, no infrastructure, no fishing rights, and no way out, they can starve.

They are in a non-survivable ghetto.

Not much of a choice is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,GUEST IFOR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

There are voices in Israel and amongst the wider Jewish community which have spoken out and demonstrated against the atrocities being committed by the IDF in Gaza.

Are these Jewish anti war people anti semitic or is that a convenient accusation against those who are opposed to the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza in particular ,and the disastrous policies of the Israeli State against the Palestinians in general?

Guest Hugo above quotes the Israeli writer Uri Avnery of describing the Israeli warleader as having a "sociopathic disorder" and from the sight of those monster bombs exploding in Gaza today it must be impossible to disagree with that description.

Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were concentration camps survivors, is equally scathing about the horrors being inflicted by the Israeli leaders against the residents of Gaza.

Those huge bombs must have killed or maimed many civilians .They looked to have the power of a small nuclear bomb! Anyone who ordered their use in a overcrowded dying city must be a sick war criminal.


It is clear that a bunch of killers are now at the helm of the Israeli state . They have unleashed death and destruction on an industrial scale against the Palestinians...this after throttling the city for the past two years.

"..Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties" writes one supporter of Israel .

When are you going to stop excusing these psychokillers who are murdering and maiming by the hundreds in Gaza?

Some 4000 people,overwhelmingly civilian and including many children have been maimed or broken by these bombs and shells and there is the "stench" that is spreading from Gaza.... and Tel Aviv!


ifor
IFOR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Like most everything else Guest Ifor says, that is a lie.

According the Israel Central Elections Committee report, the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties were disqualified because they specifically "call for armed conflict against Israel."

Other Arab parties that do not make such a call have not been disqualified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to exclude to another set of inhabitants who had fled as refugees in the war. It would have been impossible to recognise such a breach of human rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Egypt pushes Hamas to accept truce
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:11:50 PM
By SALAH NASRAWI

Egyptian mediators pushed the militant Palestinian Hamas group to accept a truce proposal for the embattled Gaza Strip in talks Tuesday, while the U.N. secretary-general headed to the region to join the multitrack diplomatic efforts for a cease-fire.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon has backed the Egyptian truce proposal to halt the fighting, now in its third week. Before leaving New York for the Egyptian capital on Tuesday, he urged Israel and Hamas to accept a U.N. cease-fire resolution and allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

"To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," Ban told a news conference Monday. "Too many people have died." He said Hamas militants who have been firing rockets into southern Israel "must stop, they must look to the future of the Palestinian people."

The U.N. Security Council on Tuesday gave its full support to Ban after he briefed the council behind closed doors ahead of his week-long trip. All 15 members gave their strong backing to the secretary-general's diplomatic mission.

Israel's point man to the cease-fire talks, Defense Ministry official Amos Gilad, is also slated to come to Cairo Thursday, Israeli Defense Ministry officials said Tuesday. Officials had initially said Gilad would travel Wednesday, then changed the day to Thursday. Gilad had put off the trip for days, saying the time was not yet ripe.

Defense officials say that depending on what happens in Cairo, Israel will decide to move closer to a cease-fire or whether to launch a new, even tougher stage of its offensive. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing sensitive policy matters.

Ban won't be meeting Hamas officials and has no plans to go to Gaza during his trip, which will also include Jordan, Israel, the Palestinian-controlled West Bank, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kuwait.

Tuesday's talks between Hamas and Egyptian officials in Cairo were the latest in intensive diplomatic efforts. In Damascus, the Turkish prime minister's top foreign policy adviser, Ahmet Davutoglu, met for the third time in two days with Hamas' exiled political leader, Khaled Mashaal, about truce proposals.

But so far, the push has yielded little public progress. A Palestinian official close to Hamas said the previous round of Egypt-Hamas talks on Sunday were "stormy."

During that session, Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, told Hamas to accept Egypt's truce proposal without amendments or else Hamas will be considered responsible for Israel's continuing offensive in Gaza, the Palestinian official said, speaking on condition of anonymity for discussing the closed-door talks.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-World-News\20090113\ML-Mideast-Diplomacy.xml&cat=world&subcat=&pageid=1


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

"I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory"

Yer wrong BBruce, For 30 years the IRA nearly always telephoned warnings before setting off one of their bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST, guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

"Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are oppsed to the attack on Gaza".

C Ham says the statement is a lie ...but the fact is it is true.

The full story can be read on the BBC News website but essentially both Balad and the UAL ,two democratic parties have been barred from next month's elections to the Israeli Knesset.

The move to ban both these Arab parties was led by two ultra nationalist Israeli parties called the National Union and Israel Beitein.These parties certainly did not want representatives from the Israeli Arab electorate standing in the Knesset next month and charging the state of Israel with war crimes in front of the world's cameras.

Both Israeli Arab parties have called for Israel to become a proper functioning democracy with full democratic rights for all its citizens but this conflicts with the Zionist policy of a theocratic Israel.Hence the banning!

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in Israel and their political representatives are treated with a mixture of loathing and disdain.

It is true there have been several large Israeli Arab protests against the war...protest supported by anti war Israelis and of course the warcriminals directing Israel's slaughter in Gaza would be very angry at anti war protests coming from inside Israel itself. again, hence the banning.
IFOR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Nickhere,

That was from a posted article, not my own words,

I am glad to know that the IRA was a nation, or the duly elected government of one.


ifor, you miss the point: Calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of is usually defined as "treason" and often loses one the right to be an organized political party. Since the other "Arab" parties still exist, and continue to have seats in the Knesset, you need something more to make your point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

McGrath,

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to drive out another set of inhabitants.

Yet that is what the Arab League attempted. Israel HAS an Arab population- Jordan does not have a Jewish population. Yet Jordan had control of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967- Please tell me where the Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank are????


Could they be amoung the 820,000 Jews from Arab nations that Israel resettled?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

To beardedbruce
It might be that the Israeli Arabs simply abhor the carnage that has been unleashed in the slaughterhouse of Gaza by the Israeli military.

I know we are all here on Mudcat because of our love of folk music but over there in Gaza the folk are being maimed and murdered by the thousands.

I should have added that the leader of one of those ultra nationalist parties Avigdor Lieberman has apparently called for his government to adopt the "Japanese solution "in Gaza referring to the dropping of the Hiroshima bomb.

His party is thought to come fourth in next month's election!
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

ifor,

IMHO NO-ONE likes the present carnage in Gaza, but some of us have decided that it is preferable to the constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians ( that neither you nor the UN, nor any of those nations protesting Israel's actions ever even commented upon) for years upon end.

Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming.

Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others) there has to be a serious commitment to stopping Hamas from rearming.


Yet Hamas is still firing rockets at innocent civilians- and the UN is telling them to stop.

Egypt is telling them to stop.

Jordan is telling them to stop.

Iran and Syria ( the nations that violated the 2006 UN ceasefire to rearm Hezboallah) are the only ones NOT telling them to stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

"constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians"

So far 10 Israeli soldiers have died along with 3 civilians killed by rocket fire.

well over 900 Palestinians have died in this latest conflit & almost 4500 wounded, most of these are women & children

Where do you get off asking for that kind of unbalanced peace & security?


"Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming"

Bullshit! Hamas has agreed to stop if Israel will pull out of Gaza & open the border.
Israel has not agreed to anything until it has leveled Gaza!


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

Wrong, Barry.

"Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population."


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

Bobert (and other Hamas sympathizers):Do you believe it is unreasonable for Israel to insist that any cease-fire agreement MUST include guarantees that Hamas MUST stop firing rockets into Israeli neighborhoods and Hamas must agree to cease importing Syrian and Iranian weapons into Gaza?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Yes Doug & what will the Israeli's stop doing & what are they willing to give up?

BB, as for stockpiling cadavers & spilling buckets of blood, Israel shows that they'll consider the limitless suppy of Palestinians they kept & had under their feet & that they are willing to eraidicate the whole population just to prove their point. Then they can have Gaza, the West Bank 7 the rest of the OT to themselves. May their seed fail in the desert sands.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

As in the past, it is the Palestinians that have been asked to give & the Israeli's only to get & even then the Israeli's have not abided & have pushed for more. Again they will have more blood & will not stop. The US needs to stop it's backing & funding of Israel. Let Israel live on it's own in it's own neighborhood & see how they will then behave without their big stebrother, the US, to have their back. They might prove to then become a "good neighbor"? As it is I wouldn't want them in my backyard.


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

Listen, Dougie... Have you seen these rockets??? They were on TV last week and look like they were made by some junior high school student for his C- science experiement... I mean, they are junk... You could make a better rocket, Dougie...

So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???

What do ya'll think we are??? Friggin' morons, 'er what???

I mean, lets get real here... This entire war is being fought between a desperate population using stone aged weapons verses a USA supplies and trained military... That's why the score is 1000-10 in favor of the Israels and of those 10, 6 were from friendly fire so the real score is 1000-4...

This isn't even a war... This is like when rich guys go to those hunt places where the game is trucked in to be shot... You know, like when Dick Cheney went out and shot and killed 70 some doves that were raised to be shot up by some rich-ass fat-ass white dude...

That is reality...

And now we are being fed alot of BS about how we should be afraid of Iran???

Give me a break...

This is like the junk that the inspectors found in Iraq... Remember the model airplane they showed us in the mad-dash-days... It was a friggin' hobby store remote... But they told US that Saddam was gonna put ant-trax in it and fly it over the US and kill everyone...

Hardy-har-har...

I'm sick of being lied to and I'm sick of Israel tonight...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Depends what you mean by "calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of". It's quite common for people quite legitimately to wish for that to happen, and frequently they are successful.

The Scottish National Party in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, and the SDLP and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland all call for a constitutional settlement in which the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would cease to exist. It's not long since the countries Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the German Democratic Republic and the USSR were wiped off the map.
......................

Justice is not determined by tit-for-tat. Ethnic cleansing is always criminal. Insofar as Jews were driven into exile in Israel by other countries, that was an injustice, and a peaceful settlement in the Middle East should seek to remedy it - but that does not mean that the exclusion of the exiled inhabitants of the country that is now Israel was or is legitimate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Bobert, I THANK you for that post. I AGREE with you!!! The US is so scared of being seen as Anti Semitic that we won't do a damn thing to stop this horror. I am not a Christian, but I say unto you, suffer the little children.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

I ain't anti-Semetic either, Sorch... But over the last week I have become very anti-Israel...

I think that the UN needs to renogotiate the deal that gave this land that we call Israel to European Jews... It clearly ain't workin' for anyone in the region... Heck, why not just give these folks Utah or Wyoming 'casue there ain't but a half a dozen or so folks in either of them states (lol)...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

From The Independent (London) for Wednesday 14th January:

At least three Palestinians in Gaza were shot dead yesterday after Israeli soldiers fired on a group of residents leaving their homes on orders from the military and waving white flags, according to testimony taken by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. The testimony was rejected by the military after what it said was a preliminary investigation....

...In Gaza, Munir Shafik al-Najar told B'Tselem that members of his extended family started trying to leave their homes after the Israeli army began demolishing buildings in the area of Kuza'a, close to the Israeli border with south-eastern Gaza. Mr Najar said the Israeli soldiers were using gunfire to signify that residents should leave, but then started shooting "indiscriminately".

He testified that his relative Rawhiya had stepped out of the family-owned building, one of whose walls had been destroyed by a bulldozer, expecting her family to follow, but she was shot. The military subsequently attacked another group escaping leaving two more of his relatives dead. The military said late last night that it had found the claim to be "without foundation".


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

It's bad enough that the borders have been closed off so that the civilian population cannot flee the destruction raining down on them and now they can't flee their own housing when the walls are falling in on them. This is the same Nation whose people sought international justice & asylum from the hands of the Nazi's. They are now subjecting the people of Palestine, who are forced to live in the same getto situation, to the same treatment that brought such shame to a world that couldn't believe that such eveil could exist. The world is fast turning it's back on Israel & opening their eyes towards Palestine. Israel will bring it's own hell home.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Yeah, Barry, I agree with everything you have said... Israel has lost this war in the hearts and minds of the international community...

Yeah, this may get some hardliners in Israel elected, much in the way that Bush used Iraq in the 2004 election, but this one is going to come back to haunt Israel and these hardliners...

I repeat: Israel has lost this war!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

BBRuce, I kinda guessed you'd pick me up on the use of the term 'nation' - I put my hands up , of course. But nations aside my point was that the Israelis aren't the only ones to warn they were going to blow something up in advance. Course this doesn't make it alright either. Looks nice, but could be done for several reasons, or mixture of same:

Looks good from PR point of view. In later years the IRA wanted to avoid civilian casualties as they look bad and don't help the cause. Blowing up property can be nearly as effective: in the 90s the IRA switched to economic targets as they realised the UK could always find plenty more cannon fodder while hurting them in the pocket really hurt them. After Canary Wharf was blown up a number of leading financial institutions threatened to quit and go elsewhere if security weren't guaranteed. And of course the UK couldn't guarantee no bomb would ever get through as no one can guarantee that except in the movies.

In Gaza motives are a bit different maybe. No point trying to hurt Gazans in the pocket, they're as poor as church mice anyway. But blow up their houses and terrorize them and they'll have to leave, as they'll have nothing to come home to - in fact, no homes to come home to. Houses can easily be rebuilt if Israel decides to move back in, more of a nuisance to get rid of the natives. Plus it's a collective punishment as all Palestinians are being held to account, for the actions of Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Ok, they voted for Hamas, but a majority of Israeli citizens voted for the hawks in Knesset. Does that justify Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks? There has also been a crackdown on anti-war activists (Israeli arab or Jewish alike) in recent weeks in Israel. There are some people there who just don't want the violence to stop it seems, and not only on the Hamas side.

You say Hamas are doing wrong by their citizens. I suppose the Israelis are really doing their bit to alleviate their suffering as well, mainly by putting them out of their misery. Thats's really turning things on their head - blow them to hell and blame them for their own misfortune.

I think the problem many people have with this conflict is not that they support or condone Hamas but that it's so lopsided and out of all proportion. It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. Maybe the Israeli army wanted to recover its image after its defeat in Lebanon, but this is just shooting ducks in a barrel. Let them go and take on the Chinese or Russians - who at least have armies as advanced and well-equipped if much bigger. Nor will it stop the violence or rockets. It'll slow them down for a bit but it'll leave a sea of resentment and desperation that guarantee another intifada or whatever, and more heavy-handed responses from Israel (maybe that's what they want).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

BBRuce - "Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others)"

Erm, more like NO UN resolutions are being enforced against ANYONE (apart from Iraq)


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM

The more the glorification of the murderous Hamas regime and their ilk, the less of a reason Israel has to go after them full steam, dressed as civilians as they are, unmindful of Geneva as they (Hamas) are, and fighting from the ranks of civilian sites as they are.

All the complaints about what Israel should or shouldn't do now doesn't do any good to solving the situation they find themselves in. I doubt that Israel has lost any friends among those who perceive it is an existential threat from a murderous regime (Hitler in rags was still Hitler, or do you shed a tear during the Bunker scene?).


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:11 AM

If the elected government is "the murderous Hamas regime" then it surely is an apprentice one.

Its master must be the Israeli regime next door which has murdered tens of thousands over the past few decades.

Almost all the atrocities and destruction we have seen happen in Gaza have been done by Israel in the recent or fairly recent past.

The mass bombing with shells,missiles and huge bombs? Tick! Done it before in Lebanon 2006 and 1982.

The slaughtering of defenceless refugees in their camps?Tick! Thousands murdered under the direction of that old killer Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla [Beirut ] in 1982.

The bombing of refugees in United Nations facilities ? Tick.The Israeli airforce killed almost a hundred Palestinian women and children at Qana in 2006.

The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza .

The destruction of Universities,clinics and hospitals?Tick!The Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure in 2006 killed and mutilated thousandsof Lebanese civilians.

The use of assassination squads on the West Bank in recent years is a reminder that the Zionists came to power having hung two British soldiers on wire hooks to remind the British to get out of Palestine. The present Foreign Minister's father was a member of the terrorist Stern Gang that did it share of the killing back in 1948.

The list goes on but Israel can accurately be described as a murderous regime that specialises in the mass murder , humiliation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.

However,as it wades through a river of gore in Gaza things are going wrong for the killing machine.

As the Jewish socialist writer Isaac Deutscher wrote about Israel warned towards the end of his life in the late 1960s
"You have become the Prussians of the Middle East.Be careful you may triumph yourself to death">
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies!


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Ifor,

"The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza ."

Factual correction: 640,000 by ARAB figures. And I note you do not mention the 820,000 Arab JEWS driven from their homes?

Or the many Arab Moslims who stayed in Israel?

How many Jews are there in Arab countries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB...


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

"Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs" Bobert lie they ARE NOT nuclear.


Modern

During Operation Desert Storm (1991) there was a need for deep penetration bomb similar to the British weapons of World War II, but none of the NATO air forces had such a weapon, though the RAF possesses several of Barnes Wallis' bombs as museum pieces. As a stop-gap, some were developed rapidly over a period of 28 days, using old 8 inch (203 mm) artillery barrels as casings. These bombs weighed over two tons but carried only 647 lb of high explosive. They were laser-guided and were designated "Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)", and worked very effectively.

More recently the US has developed a series of custom made bombs to penetrate hardened or deeply buried structures:

Depth of Penetration Weapon Systems
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 1.8 m (6 ft) BLU-109 Penetrator GBU-10, GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator (AUP) GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead GBU-15, GBU-24, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: more than 6 m (20 ft) BLU-113 Super Penetrator GBU-28, GBU-37


[edit] Fusing
The traditional fuse is the same as a classic armor-piercing bomb: a combination of timer and a sturdy dynamic propeller on the rear of the bomb. The fuse is armed when the bomb is released, and detonates when the propeller stops turning and the timer has expired.

Modern bunker busters may use the traditional fuse, but some also include a microphone and micro controller. The microphone listens, and the micro controller counts floors until the bomb breaks through the desired numbers of floors.


[edit] Missiles

A guided bomb strikes its target in a weapons testThe extra speed provided by a rocket motor enables greater penetration of a missile-mounted bunker buster warhead. To reach maximum penetration (Impact depth), the warhead may consist of a high density projectile only. Such a warhead carries more energy than a warhead with chemical explosives (kinetic energy of a projectile at hypervelocity).


[edit] Halts in production
The McAlester, Oklahoma production plant for the U.S. Military halted the production of 2,000 pound (900 kg) bunker buster bombs on two occasions. The first, on February 8, 2005, revealed that 17 employees who made the weapons had low blood oxygen levels because of their exposure to trinitrotoluene (TNT). Later in August, 34 workers were also found to be anemic. Production restarted on January 1, 2005 after a new ventilation system was installed, but halted again on March 2 of the same year when blood tests confirmed continued adverse effects to employee health from TNT exposure. [2]


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Let me see...

Bobert makes a fales statement.

I correct him

"Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

.......
BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth. "



Bobert repeats falsehood:

" Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

.....
So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"




I correct Bobert a second time:

"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies! "




Bobert calls me a liar:

".
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB... "





So, if one tells a lie repeatedly, but Bobert wants it to be true, it is true.

And repeating the truth makes one a liar, when Bobert disagrees with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:30 AM

The second bomb that was fitted with a GAM guidance kit was the 2000 kg (4500 lb) class BLU-113/B "bunker buster" penetrator warhead, which had been developed on a "crash" basis for Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (for details, see GBU-28/B Paveway III). The GAM-equipped BLU-113/B, also known as "GAM-113", was designated GBU-37/B. The first drop of a GBU-37/B from a B-2 occurred in May 1997, and it's possible that weapons of this type were operationally used in Afghanistan in 2001 (but reports are conflicting). The GBU-37/B is replaced by the GBU-28C/B, a development of the GBU-28/B laser-guided bomb with an improved warhead and additional GPS/INS guidance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

sorry...

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/index.html


Is there some reason that actually checking statements BEFORE blaming others that they are wrong is frowned upon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 AM

Looking at my 08:37 post, I see that it is possibly excessively long.


Clones, please delete it and I will repost in smaller posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate ev