BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:50 AM

To Teribus
I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore.The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered.

Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?

But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories.

The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land.

This is no basis for any kind of solution that is acceptable.I don't think the Palestinians will accept living in a series of shrinking bantustans being ruled by their gun totin' Israeli masters and surrounded on all sides by Israeli territory . And those who are not locked into these bantustans will be imprisoned and humiliated in broken,poverty stricken Gaza, another giant prison.

I think the above is the prospect for Palestinians and the seeds for further conflict and carnage with Israel. And it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict.It keeps trying to bomb the Palestinians and for that matter the Lebanese into submission but it is getting harder and harder to win a military victory...and the sight of those dead and mutilated children murdered and maimed in their hundreds and thousands is long going to fuel world wide revulsion .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM

Even The Dead Are Not Safe In Gaza

Israeli bombing has destroyed the large Sheik Radwan cemetery in Gaza destroying graves and exposing the corpses of those killed during the invasion of Gaza.

Even the dead cannot be at peace from the missiles and bombs fired with impunity .
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:38 AM

Barry


"Most are women & children!"

Figures I have seen quoted from the Palestinian sources have been less than half.

Hardly most.


"on houses in densely populated areas"

Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:45 AM

Bobert,

Let me 'splain something to you.

We don't have nuclear bunker busters.

Israel (probably ) has more than enough nuclear weapons to use them, if they wamnted to- the continued existance of Gaza seems to indicate they have no diesire to use them.

I explained how bunker busters are NOT nuclear, and you keep repeating the lie that they are.

I look for facts, which obviously is beyond your comprehension


" ******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you."

You have NEVER given facts to support your statements- As opinions, you are entitled to them, but when you insist on declaring them "Bobert facts" and demand that we all accept them, it would be nice if they were at least physically possible.

You seem to be acting more and more like you claim Bush is, every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM

BTW, Bobert,

You are asking me to prove that the US has nOT given Israel "nuclear bunker busters"

I have shown they do not exist, but aren't you asking me to prove a negative, which YOU declared was what the UN did with UNR1441 about Iraq?

You are now saying that the Iraq war was justified, because Saddam could not prove he had not gotten WMD???????

Or is it just Jews that you make unreasonable evaluations about????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:56 AM

30,000 dead civilian Kurds- We can't have Saddam actually comply with the ceasefire terms.


1,000 dead Gazans, half of whom are civilians- Israel does not have the right to exist.




Bobert, you make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM

The US has already reported that Israel has Bunker Busters but their request for more has been denied. (See any recent news caption)

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)



"on houses in densely populated areas"
BB
"Houses being used to hide the tunnels that Hamas used to smuggle in those rockets, and arms, instead of the food and medicine their civilian population supposedly is dieing for the lack of."

So the idea is to bomb & level every house in Gaza
They're doing a good job of it!

They (the civilians) can't house what they don't have = food & medical supplies (against the Geneva Conventions & International Law)

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Barry,


You state:
"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"

I find this:
"Appalled that fighting was still continuing in Gaza despite a Security Council's ceasefire resolution, senior United Nations officials said today they were horrified at the human costs amid reports that over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children. "

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/14-01-2009/106947-gazaunhospitals-0


Do you have anything more recent?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

We don't have nuclear bunker busters??? How do you ****know**** that, BB??? There was some discussion back in '03 about building them... So, unless you have national security clearance and the defense contrator who is supplying the DoD with bunker buster bombs you don't know any more than what the governemnt wants you to know... Which is generally propaganda...

And if you are that DoD contrator with security clearance then I'm sure the DoD would be interested in why you have parked yourself here in Mudville pontificating about weaponry...

Like I said, prove that those requests back in '03 didn't produce a new and improved bunker buster...

But beyond that, do you think that Israel should have bunker busters???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

Barry,

It is known that Israel has bunker busters, but it is Bobert's claim that bunker busters are nuclear that is in dispute.

Still looking for any reports that the majority ( ie, more than 50%) of the Gazan casualties are women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM

Now that they are training their guns on the UN the casualty count of women, at least, will probably go up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Maybe a hyphen could make things clearer.

Nuclear-bunker busters. For busting bunkers that aspire to provide some protection against nuclear weapons.
..................................................

Only 40% women and children among those killed and less than half of those wounded. That makes all the difference then.

The truth is no one can possibly have accurate figures in a situation like this. They are estimates. There are undoubtedly dead bodies lying in bombed buildings that no one has counted yet, and wounded as well.

The majority of people in Gaza are women and children, that at any rate is beyond question. Since by no means all the men killed will in any sense have been combatants, it seems pretty evident that most of those killed and injured will have been civilians - after all that is the normal pattern in modern wars. It has definitely been the case in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

"Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)"


"Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers – 6 mins ago



Roughly half civilians is now mostly women and children???

Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative, but it was wrong to ask Iraq to prove what it had done with it's WMD programs ( previously observed by the UN)?


OK, tell me why I should consider this reasonable?????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

"Israel should be destroyed unless I prove a negative."

I don't think anyone actually said that, did they bruce? Or linked those two things.

If anything stopping the killing in Gaza is about saving Israel.
....................

Roughly half means "either a bit more than half or a bit less than half - we don't actually know". And seriously, how does it make any difference which of those statistics is the case?

When it turned out that "only" 3000 people were killed when the Twin Towers came down, rather than earlier estimates of 10,000, did that alter the horror of what had been done? If it turned out that "only" say fiver million Jews were killed in the Holocaust rather than six million, would that change anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:28 AM

Most of tghe dead are women & children (see any & all recent news coverage, from anywhere)

***

So is every person living in Gaza a terrorist? That would mean the Israeli's are justified in killing every man, woman & child in Gaza?
Because that's what they're doing & it doesn't seem as if they'll stop untill they suceed

***

I think that every lost innocent life is a tragedy. I believe that the only solution to the Middle East quagmire is the two-state solution that Hamas rejects.

But I also know that the Hamas terrorists hide behind the civilian population.

Hamas' own estimates are that a third of the Palestinian dead are innocent civilian. That amounts to 2/100ths of 1% of the Palestinians in Gaza.

If Israel's intent was to live up to Barry Finn's statements above, they're not doing a very good job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM

Reports are being broadcast that the United Nations HQ in Gaza has been and partially destroyed hit by Israeli phopherous shells .
Some 700 Palestinians who had fled from their homes were sheltering in the UN facility when it was attacked.Casualties have been reported.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials."

Another source of confusion here is that police are counted as civillians.
IDF regards and targets them as being part of Hamas military

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

"Bobert - PM
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...
....
Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz the Al Quds hospital in Gaza is engulfed in flames after being attacked by Israeli military forces.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

I see Barak has apologised for shelling the main UN compound in Gaza, where 700 Palestinians had been sheltering. He has described it as a "grave mistake".

Well, I suppose that is better than the reflex of making out it was a justified attack on Hamas who were using the refugees as a human shield...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

Actually...


"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the military fired artillery shells at the U.N. compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location. Three people were wounded.

"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologize for it," he said. "I don't think it should have happened and I'm very sorry."

A senior Israeli military officer had also said Israeli troops shelled the compound after coming under fire from Palestinian militants there — an account dismissed by a U.N. official there at the time as "nonsense.""

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

So, who do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM

He believes whoever says what he wants to hear. ;-) And that would be the Israeli government, naturally.

All people do that. They believe whoever says what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

Medical Aid For Palestinians, a relief charity working in Gaza, has issued a press release the main points of which are as follows:

Al Wafa and Al Wia'm hospitals in Gaza have both been attacked by the Israeli military dropping bombs.

Al quds and the European hospital have also been attacked with phospherous .

13 medical staff have been killed and 22 injured since the invasion started 20 days ago.
15 ambulances have been destroyed and 7 damaged

12 health centre have been attacked and damaged including one funded by european churches.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM

BOBERT FACT - US has nuclear bunker busting bombs

ACTUAL FACT :

"US drops nuclear "bunker buster" from budget"
Date 27 October 2005 by Shaoni Bhattacharya


Controversial plans to research nuclear "bunker busters" have been abandoned by the by the US in the country's 2006's budget.

The Bush administration and the Senate have agreed with the House of Representatives to scrap the funding for the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator (RNEP) in the 2006 Energy and Water Development Appropriations Bill.

The Pentagon will instead focus on developing a conventional deep-earth penetrating bomb, said Senator Pete Domenici, chair of the Senate subcommittee dealing with the issue.

He said the National Nuclear Security Administration had requested such a switch. "The focus will now be with the Defense Department and its research into earth-penetrating technology using conventional weaponry. The NNSA indicated that this research should evolve around more conventional weapons rather than tactical nuclear devices," he said in a statement."

Some More ACTUAL FACT:

During the "Cold War" the Soviet Union and the United States were creating bunkers buried under huge volumes of soil or reinforced concrete in order to withstand the multi-megaton thermonuclear weapons developed in the 1950s and 1960s. Bunker penetration weapons were initially designed out of this Cold War context.

The weapon was revisited in the post-Cold War for use in Afghanistan in 2001, and again during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. During the campaign in Tora Bora in particular, the United States believed that "vast underground complexes," deeply buried, were protecting opposing forces. Such complexes were not found. While a nuclear penetrator (the "Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator", or "RNEP") was never built, the DOE was allotted budget to develop it, and tests were conducted by the Air Force Research Laboratory.

As well, it has been stated that Iran may have such deeply buried bunkers to guard its nuclear program.

The Bush administration removed its request for funding of the weapon in October 2005. Additionally, US Senator Pete Domenici announced funding for the nuclear bunker-buster has been dropped from the Department of Energy's fiscal 2006 budget at the department's request, strongly indicating that the project for the development of the RNEP seems to be in fact canceled.

Now I am willing to place a bet that Bobert will continue to witter on about the evils of this US weapon that does not exist.

To Guest ifor:
"I don't think the path to peace in the region will be attained by the unleashing of a river of blood and gore. The atrocities committed by the Israeli military are going to be remembered."

Irrespective of whether they have committed them or not as has proven to be the case in the past Guest ifor

"Secondly how will there be peace when a one state solution with all inhabitants having full democratic rights is rejected out of hand by the Israelis who see it as an end to the Zionist project?"

What Zionist project is that Guest ifor?? That second point of yours doesn't really reflect the history of the area does it?? I think that after unprovoked attack, after unprovoked attack, by Palestinian Arabs on Palestinian Jews between 1920 and 1937 (Peel Commission) it suddenly dawned on the British that there was never going to be a one state solution because the Palestinian Arabs simply refused point blank to live in a single state and peacefully co-exist with their Jewish neighbours, many of whom Guest ifor had been there for hundreds of years. Towards the end of the British Mandate period the United Nations came to exactly the same conclusion and proposed a two state solution that the Israelis accepted and the Arabs rejected. So tell me Guest ifor, if what you say is true please tell me exactly when it was that the Israelis rejected a single state solution. I take it that you can do that, or is this just another "Marxist Myth".

"But the Israelis have also made a two state solution unworkable because Israel has created facts on the ground in the West Bank by allowing/encouraging the settlement of around 500000 settlers ,many organised like armed paramilitaries in the occupied territories."

Tell me Guest ifor, there were "Israeli Settlers" in Gaza prior to the hand-over to the Palestinians in 2005. Those settlers had been there for years. The Israeli Government stated that as part of the hand-over the settlers would be removed. Where are those settlers now Guest ifor?? Are they still in Gaza? Or did Israel keep its word?? What was the Palestinian part of the deal Guest ifor?? It had something to do with a cessation of indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians from inside Gaza didn't it?? Tell me Guest ifor, did the Palestinians keep their word?? Now according to their track record Guest ifor, if Israel states that it will return the West Bank to the Palestinians in order that a two-state solution can be implemented and that all settlers will be removed. Then oddly enough Guest ifor based upon their track record in similar circumstances I believe that the Israelis would do precisely what they said they would do.

"The land grab by the State and the settlers has been going on for years and is still going on...accompanied by shootings,arrests,demolition of houses,road blocks,lockdowns, beatings, the stealing of water supplies,grubbing up of orchards,and the building of the giant Apartheid Wall across Palestinian land."

I do love it when lefties get all emotional, you can almost see them frothing up – no mention there of the attacks on the Israeli population Guest ifor. The dangerous thing is that, according to your perspective and that of many others on this forum in relation to this conflict, no matter what Israel can do no right and expect to live and the more that that is pushed and promulgated the starker the choice becomes. If the Israelis are to be accused of doing something that they at present most certainly are not then why not say "to hell with it, if we're being accused of it lets actually do it, wipe them out. We may be hated but we will be safe". Because neither, Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon is going to go to war with Israel over the Palestinians who have repeatedly rejected ever peace offer ever made. Sad fact is Guest ifor, that none of those countries, or those "heroic freedom fighters" of Hamas, et al, give a tupenny-hapenny damn about "The Palestinians" – They never have, not for one second.

"…it is the Israeli criminal government which is responsible for the ongoing conflict."

Please correct me if I am wrong here Guest ifor but it was Hamas that is down on record as the party that ended the "cease-fire" and it was Israel that was down on record as wanting it to continue.

The responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians within Gaza rests solely with their elected "Government" and that, unfortunately for the "Palestinians", is Hamas. It is up to Hamas to protect its citizens and act in their best interests to secure their safety, in exactly the same way it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to safeguard and protect its citizens. The Israeli military intervention in Gaza was brought about by attacks on Israeli centres of population by Hamas and other terrorist groups operating within Gaza with the consent of Hamas. World wide revulsion is not worth the life of a single child – Now Guest ifor tell that to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

To Teribus
You are wrong to say that it was Hamas that ended the ceasefire.

The ceasefire held up remarkably well but was doomed once Israel continued to tighten the noose around Gaza by totally controlling and throttling Gaza's land ,sea and air borders.

During the 18 months of the blockade hundreds of Gazan hospital patients in desperate need of medical treatment were denied exit from the strip and over a hundred died as a direct result.

The last straw for the Palestinians was the killing of six Hamas men inside Gaza which effectively was the start of the renewed conflict.

I am not making this up it is what is widely claimed by many outside the ranks of Israel's apologists for the slaughter that is taking place in Gaza.

All credit to those inside Israel,both Israeli and Palestinian, who have called for an end to the slaughter and have a wider perspective than the tunnel vision of those who are directing and murdering in the city.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Iraeli rocket fire damaged a media centre in a high rise Gaza building today.Two Abu Dhabi journalists were injured by shrapnel and two floors below the Reuters office had to be evacuated after it was damaged in the attack by an Israeli warplane.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Of course attacking TV stations and suchlike and killing journalists is now standard enough practice - it's happened in Iraq, and Afghanistan and of course there was the time Tony Blair bombed a TV station in Belgrade and killed 16 technicians and journalists.

Here's a site monitoring these kinds of attacks on media workers - International News Safety Institute - INSI More than 100 journalists and other media workers were killed in 2008. There's a running score chart on that site - so far the toll for 2009 is six.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

Percentages are great things, aren't they? Only 0.02% or whatever of Gaza's long-suffering citizens have been blown to bits by Israeli bombs etc., Well it sounds better than over 1,000 people and 5,000 wounded anyway, I suppose. And you can do some more algebra and math until all those dead people don't look like very much really. Like Stalin is reputed to have said "the death of a million men is a statistic"

I wonder how long before someone says Jesus was betrayed by only 13.2% of his apostles?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

Come to think of it, those percentages are starting to remind me of Jonathon Swift's 'Modest Proposal" (Google it)

0.02% - that's all? The Gazans can easily afford that, it's not such a lot really, what with all them Arab wimmin having loads of babies and everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Nickhere,

Too bad you didn't actually read my post instead of just reacting to it. I said that every innocent persons death is a tragedy.

The miniscule percentage was quoted in response to a particular Mudcatter's preposterous claim that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

Barry: "What will the Israelis give up?"

The Israelis will stop the bombing and retreat back to Israel. The war will be over.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

3,000 dead on September 11 out of 300,000,000 in America.   That's 0.0001 isn't it?

Yes, so a claim that the Islamic terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 were killing every man, woman and child in America would be just as big a lie as the preposterous lie that Israel was killing "every man, woman and child in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

But that wouldn't have stopped it being murder on an enotmpous scale. In either case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM

C.Ham you weren't the only one mentioning it

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Seems almost a shame to have David Milliband saying something intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM

Of the 18 hijackers of the 9/11 atrocity none were Palestinian.I think 14 were Saudi Arabian and none were Iraqi .
Stange to say the USA did not bomb or invade Saudi Arabia ,instead it allowed the Saudi royal princes and assorted hangers on to leave the country within days of the attack on New York.
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM

First of all, there is no obne here who can offer any proof, one way or another, if the bunker buster bombs that are being preduced today are nuclear or not... All you folks can is report what them lieing ass governemtn has put into yer little doughboy heads... Big whup... A friggin' monkey can be taught to pull the right lever to get food so all you weapons experts give yerselve a peanut for parroting the company fight song...

But, really... Who cares???

The real issue here is that Israel has shown repeeatedly that it does not play well with its neighbors... It has a long history of not playing nice with its neighbors so, hey, in the words of Doctor Phil...

..."How's that workin' for ya, Bubba???"

Well, it ain't and that's why I have finally figured out that Israel just might not ahve a ***right*** to exist... Rights are earned, not stolen...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

Not very good at answering questions is Guest ifor.

"You are wrong to say that it was Hamas that ended the ceasefire.

The ceasefire held up remarkably well but was doomed once Israel continued to tighten the noose around Gaza by totally controlling and throttling Gaza's land ,sea and air borders."

Let's see then shall we Guest ifor:

Between 2002 and November 2008, 3943 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel plus 3702 Rockets.

Now during this cease-fire that Guest ifor stated was holding up remarkably well from 19th June to 31st December 505 Rockets plus 327 Mortar Bombs were fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip. Now can you explain exactly why those did not get a mention in your post Guest ifor??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Probably, Teribus, (no pun intended) it's an "Unconvenient truth."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Oops. Should have read: Because, Teribus, (no pun intended) it's "An Inconvenient Truth."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Reply to Teribus

It must be uncomfortable and deeply shameful to be openly supporting the murderous state of Israel and its Zionist zealots at a time when the whole world is seeing Palestinian babies,children and adolescents being butchered and dismembered by that range of US supplied weapons ranging from those monster bombs to rockets and from phospherous weapons to tank shells.

The Israeli military is even blowing up corpses in the cemetery in Gaza..truly a literal case of overkill!.How appropriate for the anti Zionist and pro peace Jewish Rabbi in New York yesterday to burn his Israeli passport in protest at the mass killing of Gazan civilians.

And, as has been pointed out to the handful of frankly unsavoury Zionist apologists on Mudcat on numerous occasions, this pattern of slaughter and massacre of Palestinians by the Israeli military is nothing new.It started in 1948 and there have been genocidal outbursts at intervals since then.

A quick glance at just about any unbiased book on the conflict will uncover details of the mass murders and destruction unleashed by Israel either in Lebanon,in Gaza or on the West Bank.

A full account of the Israeli breaking of the ceasefire in Gaza can be found by referring to google and typing in"Gaza and the breakdown of the ceasefire".

It is clear that Gaza has been throttled by Israel which refused to abide by the agreement to ease the blockade.In addition it attacked Gaza killing Palestinians .It broke the ceasefire.

Why? After the bloody nose it received in Lebanon two years ago Israel was very eager to show it had the firepower to devastate its opponents and is more than ready to kill thousands of innocent civilians in order to demonstrate its military superiority. It has done it in the past and is doing so again in Gaza.

It has only been able to do this with the consent ,quiet or otherwise, of Bush and Co in America. This is Bush's parting gift to the Middle East.. a broken city and broken children. Cheers George!

But his accomplices in this terror are those Israeli warleaders who in order to win an election are prepared to blow thousands of refugees to smithereens.

And let us remember that Israel is occupying Palestinian land in Gaza and in Jerusalem and on the West Bank in defiance of international law.

Its repeated attacks on United Nations workers and facilities shows the contempt Israel has for the UN. It is truely a murderous pariah state and its actions in the slaughterhouse that is Gaza are going to have repercussions for a very long time.

In the face of these US made bombs,tanks,warships,F16s apache gunships and phospherous shells the Palestinians have one underrated weapon...justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

That's fairly true LH, as Dylan sang "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

But there's no doubt lots of people are dying there. What can be done to stop it? I don't believe that the military iron fist will do it in the long term. There must be a better way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, ifor... You got the situation pegged... The only folks who support this insanity are folks with a dog in the race... No one else is suppotrtive...

This is beyond disgusting and repulsive... This is genocide... Israel is no better than Robert Mogambe...

I thinks it is time to pull the plug on this little failed experiement... Israel was proven it cannot co-exist with it's neigbors... It had one last chance when Hamas was elected in Gaza to show that it could swallow it's pride and show grace... Instead all we got was Israel trying to starve out the Palestianians in Gaza...

There was a reason that Hamas came into power... That reason is Israel...

No, given Israel's thumbing at UN resolutions and thumbing of international law, it's time for ther sane world to tell Israel to either fix itself or get the heck outta a region that it cannnot exist in...

There are really no other choices unless the Zionists can use a 60 year old rationale to convince the rest of the world that just nukin' the West Bank and Gaza is the right thing to do... Yeah, kind flies in the face considering what the Nazi's did but, hey, seems that this is about the only thing that will make Israel happy... But that happiness won't last... Lebenon will nikes next... Then Iran... Then Syria... Then, then...

Time for Jews to stand up agsinst insanity...

Time for non-Jews to quit cow-tieing to 60 years of guilt driven crap by the Zionists and stand up against insanity...

Time for a change...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

"Dylan sang 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest' "

Actually, those are (roughly) the lyrics from a Paul Simon song.

Nickhere, you seem to have the wrong Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Right! So Israel really is moving in after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM

Just temporarily.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:40 PM

Here you are Teribus.

Some Facts clearly and thouroughly displayed and examined resulting in a well supported view that Israel broke the ceasefire.

As opposed to your opinion that Hamas did.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

And the rockets were, uh, well--for years.

I think Israel's response is a bit much, but NONE of you were bitching when Israel was getting hit by three rockets a day for over five years. Tell me, why IS that?