BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

All fair points Teribus, and I concur with your analysis here. The Jordanians for example have never been much help to Palestinians from what I can see and I agree also that the areas annexed by Egypt and Jordan were not going to be handed over to the palestinians who lived there for an independent nation either.

I think it was Robert Fisk who said trying to get a handle on the history of the region is like trying to ride two bicycles at once. I have just finished reading a rather well written book by a guy called Efraim Karsh, detailing the 1948 war and events that led up to it. As is usually the case when I read something on the region I first have to read it, then analyze it for bias. As it happens this particular book leans a lot in the favour of Israel. For example the chronology lists attacks by Arabs on Jews but doesn't mention the dynamiting by Irgun of the King David Hotel in 1946, and there are other issues with the phrasing of things and choice of vocabulary.

It's very difficult to find any balanced writing on the region, some of the propaganda from the Arab side is laughably transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

Hi Joe, interesting comment on Israeli attitudes towards Palestinians. Irish people had a similar experience in the UK during the 70s and 80s in particular. Emigrants to the UK may remember the (now illegal) signs in B&Bs reading "NO blacks, no dogs, no Irish" Whenever I went there I was always a bit self-conscious of my accent and how I might be perceived by people. Only very occasionally did I encounter any overt racism however. Occasionally this manifested itself as a kind of slight but tangible withdrawal from your company, a kind of closed-offness. At other times it could be bureaucratic - as in when we were asked to sign the PTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act) paper full of nosy questions about who we were and where going etc., Other nationalities were not asked to sign this. Then you'd get comments about 'The Irish Problem" (as if we were the problem. No Irish = no problem). I'd occasionally then ask if the speaker considered the North to be part of the UK or Republic, the obvious answer, part of the UK. Then, it is a BRITISH problem, correct? Naturally I wouldn't have attempted to use such 'persuasive' arguments with a bunch of skinheads from Tottenham. I was also leery of discussing politics / the North with anyone in public in the UK, in case some 'concerned citizen' overheard my less-than-compliant opinions and got it into their heads to phone the police on the basis that anything other than total unconditional support for the official line was closet 'terrorism'. I wonder if anyt other Irish mudcatters have had similar experiences?

I hadn't been to the UK since around late 1995 and the next time I went back (in 98) I found "all changed, changed utterly" (quoting Yeats). With several years of the peace process behind us I found English people almost tripping over themselves to show they were our friends. It was almost unnerving and I remember thinking "My G**, it's become sexy to be Irish!"

I should add, for the benefit of English mudcatters that I never felt any enmity or resentment towards English people (unless they were Tottenham skinheads) but did so towards Thatcher et al, who could have found a solution to much of the trouble years ago had they not been so concerned with their careers. Oh, and to the rags known as Tabloids.

(The British Tabloids have a large measure of responsibility here as for years they whipped up anti-Irish racism with their editorials, articles and cartoons. A very good book on his subject is Liz Curtis' "Nothing But the Same Old Story - the roots of anti-Irish racism" Recommended reading)

Apologies for thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

Interesting article here. Apparently Olmert has been bragging about pulling Washington's strings...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE50C20B20090113

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

Interesting article Carol, the tail wagging the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

Now mind that about Spurs, Nick...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:17 PM

"The way Israelis talk about Palestinians is distressing. "

...... not all Israelis Joe.

In fact you'd be surprised that quite a few have not a 'distressing' or negative view on Palestinians.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:01 AM

A couple of other links worth checking out...

http://bdsmovement.net/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/jan/23/israel-food-boycott-palestinians-gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:09 AM

A couple more related to the last two...

http://www.whoprofits.org/

http://www.whoprofits.org/Company%20Info.php?id=655

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

Well here's an interesting take on things from the Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/gaza-hamas

Now as Hamas is saying:

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

Hey Goatfell - "end to negotiations with Israel AND THE PEACE PROCESS" - "unity agreement under a banner of "RESISTANCE" - That is what is demanded by HAMAS, please supply equivalent Israeli statements.

On "reconstruction" they say this - "If international institutions want to do rebuilding projects in Gaza, then that is fine - but they must do it under our supervision."

Now how much "reconstruction" did Hamas supervise previously - damn all as far I can make out - They did however purchase and smuggle in loads of explosives, weapons, ammunition and rockets.

While crying out for international aid, Hamas is said to be - "Sitting on huge cash reserves, Hamas has said that it will begin distributing emergency payments of €4,000 to those who have lost homes" - I wonder what happened, and how they came to be sitting on those vast reserves of cash? Rocket supply chain break down, I mean they're not cheap. Why wasn't all this cash put to good use in a way that it directly benefited the people of Gaza about three years ago??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

Israel cannot afford to wait around until the Arab neighbors gain the ability to put an end to their country. The message to Hamas was clear - they won't wait - and the surrounding Arab neighbors have taken notice. The rhetoric and obvious propaganda verbiage on websites regarding Gaza on all sides lately is expected and pathetic as usual. The tragedy of war is heartbreaking, and war leads often to more hate. If Hamas continues on the same path, it will only lead to more war,death and destruction. If you want peace - you need to state that PEACE is your goal. The anti-Israeli world opinion doesn't seem to want to understand that HAMAS's goal quite clearly stated is Israel's complete destruction. A ceasefire for Hamas is a temporary lull in it's war(resistance)with Israel. However Israel needs to do it's best to implement peace with Palestinians who want it. More respect for each as people is needed instead of incitement for hatred. As usual - tough negotiations, compromises, and real progress on the ground only will make it happen. Maybe the new U.S. administration can move this forward. The problem is and has been lack of support for the peace process from other Arab countries especially Syria, Iran, Lebanon. The anti peace forces will constantly be trying to derail the process on all sides as usual, likely dragging this on until the next crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

Maybe the greatest tragedy in all this is that Israel seems to feel compelled to act in such a way as to minimise the chances of using the time it has in order to bring about a settlement which will ensure its longterm survival.

At present Israel is strong enough to do more or less as it likes. It is very much better equipped than its opponents and it can rely on whatever support it needs from the USA. Its opponents are disorganised and relatively weak - so far as the Palestinians themselves are concerned, very weak indeed.   But these are circumstances which in the course of time almost certainly will change radically.

I think it's a mistake to concentrate exclusively on issues of justice and argue back and forth about historical rights and wrongs. There is right and wrong on both sides, and there is really not all that much point in weighing out which side has more of either right or wrong.

The important thing is for a way to be found in which the cycle of violence can be halted and reversed. And the people for whom that is most important is the present majority community in Israel - because if it continues like this into the future it is hard to see how it can avoid disaster, when in the course of time the balance of forces has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

To Arnie
The Palestinians could get peace quickly if they accept the role that Israel allocates to them which is one of surrender,dispersal,humiliation and occupation.

There again Israel could achieve peace along the following lines:

1 The recognition that the Palestinians in exile,and their descendents have the right of return to their homeland ..a homeland from which they were dispersed by terror so many years ago.

2 The withdrawal of Israeli occupying forces from the West Bank,Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.These areas are not part of Israel and are being occupied in defiance of UN resolutions.

3 An end to the siege of Gaza and the Israeli military flyovers,naval blockade and economic stranglehold.

The Palestinians are unlikely to accept continued humiliation and occupation and the chopping up of any homeland into tiny bantustans surrounded by Israel in all directions...and of course the chances of the various right wing extremist leaders of Israel agreeing to points 1, 2 and 3 above are non existent.

Of course the Palestinians want peace....but they also want justice ...the justice that has been denied them for the past six decades.

Pesonally I look forward to that dreadful politician Livni being arrested for war crimes when she visits Belgium next week.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Guest ifor's view on the things that Israel has to do to get "peace:

1 The recognition that the Palestinians in exile,and their descendents have the right of return to their homeland ..a homeland from which they were dispersed by terror so many years ago.

2 The withdrawal of Israeli occupying forces from the West Bank,Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.These areas are not part of Israel and are being occupied in defiance of UN resolutions.

3 An end to the siege of Gaza and the Israeli military flyovers,naval blockade and economic stranglehold.

I note that according to Guest ifor the Arabs of "Palestine" have to do nothing.

Guest ifor is correct of course Israel would get "Peace" if it followed his advice. Of course the "Peace" that Israel would get would be the sort of "Peace" that normally has the words "Rest In" before it.

To Guest ifor I would encourage him to look up what the qualifications are for a so called "Palestinian" to have "right of return" - It is absolutely laughable.

As for withdrawal of forces from the territories Guest ifor mentioned. Bitter experience has taught Israel that the only way they can do that is by extracting from certain parties acknowledgement and recognition of Israel's right to exist and the right of the citizens of Israel to live their lives free from attack and the threat of violence from their neighbours - So far Guest ifor that has worked with Egypt and its worked with Jordan.

An end to the "siege" of Gaza?? Why?? So that Hamas can import longer range rockets from Iran unhindered??

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation (Between Hamas, Fatah and other Palestinian Groups) should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

As long as Hamas keep coming out with statements such as those, they will deserve everything they get and that applies in equal measure to those who vote for them - all decisions, courses of action and deeds done in life have consequences - had the Arabs of Palestine accepted what the UN offered in 1947 then they would have had everything that they say they are fighting for now and just think of the numer of lives that would not have been wasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:14 PM

"all decisions, courses of action and deeds done in life have consequences "

And the consequences of many of Israel's actions up to the present are liable to be disastrous. The same of course is true on the other side. The difference is that Israel is in a position where it has more options for changing the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

To Teribus
Should the Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland it would put them on a par with Jewish people across the world who also have the right of return to the state of Israel.

The end of the siege of Gaza would be a productive move because the mass murder and maiming of thousands of children is something that people of all creeds,colours and religions abhor!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ARNIE
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

ifor
I believe all those things Israel has to do according to you, are on the table for peace negotiations in some form when they start up again- There are serious things for the Palestinians to do too , like working on a 2 State solution living in peace and security for each state - the conditions upon Israeli land withdrawals. Hamas won't accept that premise - so future peace with Hamas and the Palestinians living in Gaza at any rate is not looking too good right now. How to begin to negotiate with a bitter enemy - on each side - that's the big challenge. But it can be done at some point through compromise and will. (I'm really afraid that Hamas and it's fundamentalist Islamist / Jihadist agenda won't ever be able to want a compromise at all - that's not what they stand for. )
ifor - It is going to take 2 peoples with demands to make PEACE. That's how it's done. No one side will get everything they want, but the end goal is living without war and utter hatred. You don't need to like your enemies, but you can make PEACE with them - It has happened in this world before & I believe it will happen some day for the Palestinians and Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Around a 100 people have occupied the BBCs Scotland headoffice in protest at the BBC refusal to broadcast a Disaster Emergency for the people of Gaza.

This refusal has led to huge controversy in the UK with archbishops,political leaders and charities demanding the decision be rescinded.

The Scottish non violent sit in has been organised by the Scottish Stop The War Coalition.

Its UK president,Tony Benn, went on to the news yesterday and managed to read out the address of the Emergency Appeal and give the BBC a good ticking off at the same time.
The sit in is to continue until the decision is changed and the protestors are demanding a meeting with the BBC chairman!

In Gaza 50000 have been made homeless and thousands have been wounded in the ferocity of the Israeli invasion.Large tracts of the city have been destroyed and the Israelis are still refusing to allow cement or concrete into the city.In addition several hospitals have been partially destroyed and clinics blown up across the city.

hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM

Israel's refusal to allow humanitarian aid and the materials needed for reconstruction efforts to enter Gaza certainly lends support to the arguments being made in this article...

http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe280108.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

I recall not long ago watching the government of Israel forcing Jews out of Gaza by actually dragging them out of their houses and putting them into cages made out of freight containers with one side cut out and enclosed with chain link fence. They were hoisted up by huge cranes, put on trucks and hauled away.

This was done as a "land for peace" good will effort to promote peace.

So how have the Palestinians shown appreciation? By launching rockets from Gaza into Israel.

Do the Palestinians want peace? If so, why not make peace with Israel like Jordan and Egypt did?

Evidently they do not want peace. They want all of the Jews, whom they descended from, dead and they engineer the death of their civilians for political purposes.

Somali Pirates are morally superior to these Palestinian "freedom fighters".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

That show of forcing the settlers out of Gaza was a self-serving act on the part of the Israeli government. It produced two intended results. It created exactly the kind of sentiment expressed above (those Gazans ought to show some gratitude), and it provided the government of Israel the ability to bomb indiscriminately in Gaza without having to worry about hitting settlers.

The fact is, it was not at all necessary for the government of Israel to remove those settlers (and I submit that they knew this full well). All they had to do was to withdraw the IDF to the other side of the wall and tell the settlers they could stay, but if they did, they were on their own. But had they done that, they wouldn't now be able to use those settlers as a way of drumming up support for their policies.

By the way, the blockade of Gaza started before Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, and is, in part, the reason they started doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM

"the consequences of many of Israel's actions up to the present are liable to be disastrous. The same of course is true on the other side. The difference is that Israel is in a position where it has more options for changing the situation." - MGOH

Really Kevin:

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation (Between Hamas, Fatah and other Palestinian Groups) should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

Now exactly what part of that report, where it states "end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process" do you have difficulty in understanding??

And you have got the unmitigated gall to say that Israel has got more options for changing the situation.

There is no situation to change Kevin, what damn well needs doing is that Hamas require a radical change in attitude - That won't happen of course because where you, and those who think as you do, believe that Hamas exists to fight for justice and promote the cause of the Palestinian people fall over is that the sole reason that Hamas exists is to promote the foreign policy aims of Iran within the middle-east region. Used to be Iraq as well but the last change of management there stopped that particular flow of income and instructions.

Oh Guest ifor, while we are discussing parity of people flitting about the place what about the 820,000 Jews and their descendants right of return to the Arab nations who robbed them and deported then in 1948 after the Arabs lost their war. You know the one where their script read that they were going to be wading in the blood of the Jews and driving the Jewish pigs into the sea.

Oh hugo, I hope the names of all those protesters are available and I hope that BBC gets the message and puts on this benefit, and all the clowns who believe the Hamas line of BS contribute to the very best of their ability and beyond. And then in about 18 to 24 months time, when absolutely nothing has been done to improve the lot of all those 50,000 homeless Palestinians and the new and improved longer range rockets are falling on Israel centres of civilian population causing the IDF once more to go into Gaza and knock seven bells out of Hamas again, all the protesters can be contacted and they can be asked if they feel if it was all worthwhile. I would be interested in hearing their answers.

"By the way, the blockade of Gaza started before Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, and is, in part, the reason they started doing that." - CarolC

Care to give the timeline on that CarolC, because I think that you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Israel has the option of ceasing to occupy the West Bank and to blockade the Gaza strip. Those are significant cards to be able to play, and very significant changes to the situation.

And if Israel were to start calling for a right of return to other Middle Eastern countries for Jewish exiles, as a quid pro quo for a similar right for Palestinian exiles to return to what is now Israel...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:18 PM

Israel never relinquished control of Gaza's borders, air space, or coastline after it removed the settlers. It continued to have complete control of these things, and while it was not a total blockade, Israel did prevent the free movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza long before Hamas was elected, which created a severe strangulation of Gaza's economy, and prevented Gazans from being able to provide for their basic needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

"That show of forcing the settlers out of Gaza was a self-serving act on the part of the Israeli government. It produced two intended results. It created exactly the kind of sentiment expressed above (those Gazans ought to show some gratitude), and it provided the government of Israel the ability to bomb indiscriminately in Gaza without having to worry about hitting settlers."

And exactly what results are the rocket attacks intended to produce?

What provided the Palestinians the ability or more appropriately, the justification to launch rockets indiscriminately into civilian populated ares of Israel?

What results is the fighting from populated areas in Gaza intended to produce.

The fact is Israel made a move toward peace and the Palestinians regard it as a weakness, a closer position for an attack.

The Palestinians can have peace if they want it but they choose war.

If this is not so, give me an example of any gestures toward peace ever made by Palestinians. Instead they teach their kids in school from day one to hate and kill Jews. On TV they have cartoons indoctrinating them into killing and suicide bombing. Instilling them with the idea that it is honorable to die fighting an killing Jews.

And this is the Intended results of that teaching. This is what they want. This is what they choose over peace.

No average Muslim is on their side but they choose to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

Another point I want to make is that Israel is now puffing up Fatah in contrast to Hamas.
Yet what did Israel do to Arafat in his headquarters in Ramallah only a year or two ago.
They surrounded his office ..more or less blew it up with him inside ,killing several of his guards and kept him in there ,a sick old man ,like a dying dog on a lead.
When he eventually died inside the ruined and surrounded wreck of a building there were many Palestinians who believed he was poisoned by the Israelis.He certainly wasn't treated with any kind of respect .
If this is how they treated the "moderate" leader no wonder Hamas wants to unite the resistance under its leadership before negotiating with the Israelis.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

SawZaw, You say the Palestinians can have peace if they want it, but they choose war. It's an argument that can be leaned both ways.

It seems to me that the only way Palestinians can obtain peace is if they accept the status quo or more, i.e they accept that Israel is in occupation of the West Bank and agree to accept even further exapnsion into their territory. That whatever nominal 'authority' the Palestinian Authority might have would only be over Palestinians (and not Israeli colonists in the West Bank), that they would accept the two-tier society created by Israel in the occupied territories such as having certain roads closed to palestinians, restrictions on their movement and trade and Israel being the final arbiter of every significant decision made.

Obviously the rockets etc., would have to stop, that goes without saying. But the Israeli army would continue to have free access to the West Bank, and the colonists the right to be armed. And that's not even mentioning Gaza.

Do you think this is an acceptable basis for peace?

The occupation of the West Bank and blockade / economic squeeze on Gaza are issues that I have yet to say any supporter of Israel say are objectionable policies, or concede that they might be contributing to the problem rather than the solution.

Teribus - you mentioned that (according to you) Hamas was powered by Iraq until Iraq was taken ot of the picture, and now Iran is behind it. Therefore Hamas was first the proxy of Iraq, and then Iran. But for this to be true it would have to mean Hamas is motivated by no ideology at all - the aims and attitudes of Iraq and Iran couldn't be more different - they were at war with each other for almost 10 years as you may remember.

A far more likely and believable scenario is that Hamas is willing to accept sponsorship from anyone who's willing to help it financially or militarily. It would suggest Hamas has an independent ideology and program of its own and is the stooge of neither Iraq nor Iran.

In the 1980s the IRA accepted a few tonnes of weapons from Muammar Ghaddafi (he was pissed off at the bombing of Tripoli and saw it as a way to get back at the US and UK). By no stretch of imagination could the IRA be considered as being Islamic fundamentalists (I'm fairly sure most IRA members were either atheists or agnostics) but they were willing o accept weapons from anyone - Russians, Yanks or Libyans. Yet they had an ideology and agenda all of their own and were not 'Moscow's arm in Britain' or any such nonsense, despite the claims of the tabloids at the time.

[None of this is by way of saying either Hamas or the IRA are right in what they do, just that calling Hamas Iran's stooge doesn't hold up to scrutiny).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

"Yet to say that ...to say" should read "Yet to SEE..." obviously (above)

Looking over the last post I guess it can be summed up as

Palestinian Arabs & Christians can have peace if they accept they are a dispossessed and conquered people, that Israel is now the master of their lives and that this is not going to change.

Now, do you think Israeli Jews would accept such terms?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

Israel did not make a move toward peace. Israel, in fact, committed to a strategy that Israel, itself, considers an act of war. When other countries blockaded bodies of water that Israel considered important for its survival, it waged wars and bombing raids against the countries responsible for those blockades (killing civilians in the process), calling them an act of war.

I don't agree with Hamas' tactics of firing their rockets in such a way that they can kill civilians, but by Israel's definition of an "act of war", Gazans certainly had justification for aggressively responding to Israel's economic strangulation of Gaza as the act of war that it was and is.

I don't know what they hope to accomplish by firing rockets. But I don't know what other options they have in the face of being slowly starved by Israel, either.

Background on the economic effects of Israel's strangulation of Gaza here...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

At this point, I also think it would be useful to point out the fact that Arab does not equal Muslim, and Muslim does not equal Arab. And Palestinian does not equal Muslim, either. There are Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs, and Muslim Arabs. There are Christian Palestinians, and Muslim Palestinians (and also Jewish Palestinians, although they now choose to call themselves Israelis). There are also secular Arabs, and secular Palestinians. The Christian and secular Palestinians have participated in the Palestinian liberation movement along side of the Muslim participants, including participating in acts of suicide bombing, which is a practice that is not confined to Muslims, by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not, and it has never been, an conflict between Muslims and Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM

Well they are certainly not being starved of weapons and ammunition. Wouldn't it be even easier to obtain food?

Yes but they prefer war matériel for their "freedom fighters" over food for their people so they get what they want.

They don't care if their people are starving. All they want is to kill Jews. Simple, plain, unabashedly and they don't try to hide it yet some people can't see it.

If not, please explain why they indoctrinate their children with the kill the Jews mentality?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:17 AM

Most of the food that has been coming in to Gaza has been brought in through the tunnels, so it's not at all correct to say that they've only been bringing in weapons. But almost a million and a half people need a tremendous amount of food every day (far, far more food is needed than the amount of weapons that Hamas has been bringing in), so it simply is not possible for them to smuggle enough food in through the tunnels to feed their people. And of course, the Israeli military has destroyed most of the tunnels, so now there is no way for them to bring food in (further evidence of genocide).

And of course, they have to rely on handouts, since they are not able to buy necessities with money they have been able to earn through their own economy (because the government of Israel has destroyed their economy), and this also poses limits on their ability to provide food for their people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:18 AM

South African Politician, Ronnie Kasrils

My hero, Naomi Klein

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

Carole - your use of the word Genocide for this situation is a distortion and a blatant abuse of language for purposes of spewing hate propaganda. Look around the world and tell me what Genocide is. This is a conflict with terrible consequences, but it is not a Genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

To Arnie
Personally I would describe the attack as unbridled violence with genocidal tendencies by a mightily armed state against women,children and many,many other unarmed civilians.
The violence was commited by young soldiers , sailors and airmen They used F16 and Apache gunships armed with the latest missiles and bombs, white phospherous chemical bombs,cluster bombs,high explosives that demolished apartment blocks , mortar rounds,field artillery,merkova tanks,armoured bulldozers, high velocity rifles and machine guns.....hundreds of children were killed by this mass firepower and many more terribly wounded.
It surely adds up to war crimes...and international attorneys have drawn up documents naming 15 senior Israeli leaders including Livni,Barack and Olmert as having a great deal to answer for!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

How about "Attempted Extermination" Arnie, is that a little less tragic??

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I think a good argument for the use of the word "genocide" is made in the link in my 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM post. It's not hate or propaganda if it's true, and it does appear to be true.

Attempted extermination of a people is the only possible reason for refusing to allow food and other humanitarian aid into Gaza. Attempted extermination of a people is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

If food isn't able to get in to a place that isn't able to produce enough food to feed the population won't take long before it does literally become a matter of genocide. Let us all hope that it doesn't come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM

Barry & Ifor, This was a war in which Israel engaged Hamas and other militants head on from inside civilian areas- which evidently is the only way to confront them. I'm not a military guy in any way, but when you fight a war - you generally need to win over your enemy. Tragic as this whole thing is, it is my understanding this was Hamas's planned defense tactic knowing full well that civilians would be at high risk and folks like you would be granted your chance to cry out that word GENOCIDE to gain world sympathy. I guess it all worked to Hamas's advantage? You think Israel would drop leaflets and announce civilians to get out of these areas beforehand if they were attempting Genocide or extermination? What kind of logic is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

Here's the UN's definition of genocide...

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

Israel's refusal to allow Gazans to leave the strip prior to bombing it indiscriminately (using weapons designed to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately), and its refusal to allow the people in Gaza to have access to food, water, fuel for heat, medical aid, and the materials needed to provide themselves with shelter (after their homes were destroyed by Israel) in the middle of winter, all support the use of the word genocide. I wouldn't say that Israel has already committed genocide. But I think it is probably accurate to say that Israel is in the process of committing a gradual kind of genocide, and that it will not stop until there are no Palestinians left in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:21 PM

Carol, the big deal is Hamas was duly elected. It would be like if Democrats in the US were to rise up and destroy Republicans. (Many Republicans would like to commit genocide on Liberals.)

The thing to understand about Hamas in Gaza is that it represents poor and unlettered people there. Islamic extremism can only be lessened by education, not bombs.
In this way it is different from the West Bank which is a different tribe of Islamic Palestinians, perhaps more well-heeled but no less militant.

Arab Tribalism is the big problem in understanding Islam. Israel doesn't get this. They think of a monolithic boogey-man that wants to destroy Israel and that's extremist thinking.

Genocide was Hiroshima, Nagaski. Also contemporary Iraq. The so-called terrorists are
basically a euphemism for extremist Islamists.

The US doesn't get this about Afghanistan either with their Northern Alliance war-lords being supported. It's another quagmire like Iraq and will bleed the US dry.

The point is that in enemy posing, we don't see the people. We see false conceptions.

If Israel could get that the Gazans are poverty-stricken and starving, perhaps their humanity would allow them to see through the knee-jerk AIPAC policies that Bush fomented.

It's an old worn-out solution to problems that never works. It's called waging war.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

No, actually, the difference between the West Bank, and Gaza hasn't got anything to do with the kind of people found in each place, and has nothing to do with the religious affiliations or practices of the people in either place. The difference is because of the different strategies that Israel is implementing in the two places. The goal is and has always been to get rid of all of the non-Jewish indigenous people who still remain in the areas that Israel wants for itself. Gradual ethnic cleansing works in the West bank (for now), but it isn't really possible in Gaza which is a tiny strip of land already enclosed behind a wall.

In the West Bank, the areas that are available for Palestinians to live in are still much larger than in Gaza, their numbers are greater, and there are Jewish settlements scattered all around the West Bank with the remaining Palestinian areas looking like holes in Swiss cheese, making it hard to bomb indiscriminately, so just gradually wiping them out, as is being done in Gaza isn't feasable at this time. In the West Bank, the method being used for clearing out the Palestinians has more to do with making their lives impossible to continue to live there so that they will leave on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

By the way, it should be noted that Hamas won the election in the West Bank as well as in Gaza. The reason Hamas is only in control in Gaza and not in the West Bank, is because Fatah was stronger in the West Bank, while Hamas is stronger in Gaza. When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Barry at the library
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

Arnie, the people of Gaza are not the enemy!

This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.

When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals

Drop leaflets & then close the borders & then bomb the shelters????

When dealing with terrorism the governments waging the violence are in most cases a military arm fighting against a group that has excepted to go to the extreme because they feel that they've run out of all other options including surrender. It is the responsibility of those waging war to try to understand basis & nature of the causes that are at the root of terrorism. Like the doctor who only treats the symptoms the cure will never come about unless the root causes are addressed. The US, England, Israel & a great many other nations only want to treat the symptoms & don't care to treat the root problems, it is in their best interests, only! When a subjagated people resist oppression violently we call it terrorism, they call it resistance. Unless you completely oppress & totally control a people they will not be defeated. If those people are left any glimmer of hope they will not be shackled, they will die. We found this to be true with slavery, they will turn to a better afterlife. So Israel is either practing extermination or slavery, IMHO they are not interested in keeping slaves, because they would treat the people of Gaza worst then anmals, which they do but they would not kill them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Barry's quote:"This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals"

I guess you know first hand what the Israeli army faced there and what occurred? I think not. Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left? A piece of cake. And as if they have a criminal justice system to deal with their own militants? I've heard about Hamas's justice system - ask some Fatah members about that.

Hamas is Israel's enemy and all this is a war!This is not petty criminal stuff. You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.   Terrible things happen in war. War is crap. Hamas's agenda is all about war - nowhere is there an expression of a possible peace process towards Israel's existence. Gazans voted them in power and it this is what has come out of it. Hopefully one day everyone will vote for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.

In fact the UK was continually bombed (including rockets fired at Downing St.) over a long period.

We didn't go out and bomb Belfast or Dublin into smithereens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

If Hamas is your the enemy why has so many civilians, children & women died? A wage is waged against an opposing army not a population of innocents like the one waged on the Ghetto's of Warsaw! If Cauban terrorist (not the Cauban military) fired rockets at the US we would be wrong to rain destruction on the civilians of Cuba. Get your head straight. Hamas was voted in because they stood against Israeli aggression! Israel is to blame for the popularity of Hamas, in the same way that Castro was the result of Batista & his support from the US.

Yes, I call Hamas a criminal but not near the degree of the nation of Israel. Hamas is no more a wing of arm of a government than the IRA or the JDL. To try & say Israel is at war with Hamas is insane. Hamas is not an army of any nation, they are a group of extremist fighting a terrorist, rouge nation.

"Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left?"

Israel didn't try to do anything but roll in guns blazing, blasting & bulldozing whatever they encountered. Hospitals, schools, shelters, home, destroying communications, food & water supplies, sanitary facilities & killing civilians in need of shelter & safety, just as the Germans did as they rolled through Poland!
Israel has kept Gaza a Ghetto & we are seeing the a repeat of the reign of hell.

You don't have to tell me war is shit & you don't have to tell me war Terrible things happen in war. War is crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

(""That's really interesting, BBruce.

So Israeli soldiers deliberately fired on, and killed, unarmed men in civilian clothing, unidentifiable as Hamas supporters, let alone as Hamas fighters, and then, somehow were able to identify the political allegiance of the corpses.""

You've gone strangely silent , Bearded Bruce.

No comment on the above?

No convenient cut'n paste to show that all these civilians committed suicide by running in front of Israli firearms practice.

Or can we assume that there is SOME truth in the statement that Israelis WERE indiscriminately shooting civilians, and will, if the truce is not maintained, probably do the same again?)


How very strange! The above was posted in answer to a post from bearded Bruce, who, prior to this, was the forum's most vociferous supporter of Israel's actions.

Not only did Bruce decide not to respond. He disappeared from this thread entirely when faced with the fact that he had totally destroyed his own argument.

Nobody else has bothered to take up the point, so I think it is worth repeating.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

If I could just interfere for a moment..............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

And as the original poster I would like to claim the 800

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM

"so it's not at all correct to say that they've only been bringing in weapons."
Why bring in any weapons? Especially it people are starving?

"the Israeli military has destroyed most of the tunnels"
Maybe because they are being used to smuggle weapons. Another ploy by Hamas to put civilians at risk for their political purposes.

"But almost a million and a half people need a tremendous amount of food every day"
Was there a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel?

"not able to buy necessities with money they have been able to earn through their own economy"
How come they can get weapons but not food?

They destroy their own economy.

Why were the Palestinians kicked out of Jordan? How come Jordan has no beef with Israel?

There are people in Jordan involved in manufacturing things for Companies in Israel. Why doesn't Israel wreck Jordan's economy if that ie their purpose?