BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

I should rephrase this part...

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state in any of the areas that were allotted to them by the UN (The West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the areas that were taken from them by Israel in 1948). What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:25 PM

The above characterization of my stance is incorrect.

1) Israel's existence is not illegal

2) Israel's self-defense is legal if it follows international laws.

I have no idea what number three is supposed to mean.

Israel was not attacked around its UN sanctioned borders in 1948. Israel was attempting to take land that had been allocated to the Palestinians, and the armies that have been accused of attacking Israel were, in reality, defending those areas from Israeli encroachment (Jordan, of course, in collusion with Israel to take and divide that land between itself and Israel, which is what was done). Almost all of the fighting took place on land that was allotted to the Palestinians by the UN and not in the area that had been allotted to Israel by the UN. And all of the land that was taken outside of the areas allotted to either side by the UN was taken by Israel from the Palestinians.

Israel's territory and borders are the internationally recognized borders (the pre-'67 borders). Israel has not officially annexed the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, so those areas are not within its borders.

Israel is not at this time being asked to take in the people who fled from the area that is within its internationally recognized borders. It is being asked to end the occupation of lands that are outside of its internationally recognized borders.

No state has a right to take land by force. That is against international law.

Jordan is the Hashemite Kingdom. It is not a Palestinian state.

There has never been an opportunity for the Palestinians to have a state within the pre-1967 borders. What other Arab countries have chosen to do or not do is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

I think your tendency is to assume an overall argument, using the UN as some sort of standard, incorporating the following:

1) Israel's existence is illegal
2) Israel's self-defense is illegal
3) Israel's political and media attempts to explicate its actions are illegal

This overlooks that:
1) Israel was attacked on its 1948 independence by forces from all the nations around its UN sanctioned borders.
2) Israel's territory and borders are the result of wars of self-defense and as such are as legal as any other country's borders, including the United States.
3) Israel took in Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim lands in comparatively similar numbers to Arab refugees going the other way, only now Israel is expected to take them on as well. This is inherently unbalanced and unequal no matter who requires it, even if it is your interpretation of certain, but certainly not all, UN resolutions.
4) Every State is entitled to defensible borders, and in the case of such a miner State as Israel, this includes the Golan and the West Bank.


There are a couple of facts on the ground that are also being ignored.

1)To all intents and purposes Jordan constitutes an existing Palestinian State.

2) There was all sorts of opportunity for Arab countries to accept a peac with Israel at the 1967 borders. This was of course prior to May 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:01 PM

All of the above attempts to change the subject notwithstanding, Israel is in violation of international law, the Geneva Conventions, and hundreds of UN resolutions by continuing its occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. And in targeting the civilian population of Gaza, it is also guilty of war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM

No, they still occupy Gaza by maintaining total control of Gaza's borders, shoreline, airspace, water, and access to other basic necessities. It's an occupation of the same sort as the Warsaw Ghetto was an occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

"under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation,"

And fair play to them for doing so CarolC. Unfortunately for the people of Gaza and the West Bank when they attack Israeli Forces (which, come on let's face it they do very seldom) or Israeli civilians (Which they do a lot, probably on the premise that civilians don't fight back) the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.

Now ever since 1937 when the Jews in Palestine gave up trusting the British to protect them from Arab attack and formed their own self-defence organisation, the Jews and latterly the Israelis have been a damn sight better at defending themselves than the Arabs have been at attacking them. That remains the case to this day. The people of Gaza and the West Bank have got a very simple decision to make based upon their own track record, probability and the law of diminishing returns.

We can either continue with this pipe-dream about destroying the Jews and driving them into the sea then taking over their property and businesses, or we could adopt a more pragmatic stance and start getting on with our lives, forget about the Jews and use all this money being thrown at us from every "swinging-dick" of a government in the world for our own benefit.

Unfortunately they will probably continue with more of the same that has been going on for the last 60 years, i.e. losing 100 people for every Israeli killed because they simply just suck at what they are trying to do. Those who govern the Arabs of Palestine and those who proclaim themselves allies, friends and supporters of the Arabs of Palestine couldn't give a toss about the Arabs of Palestine - That being the case can you give me one good reason why the Israelis should give a toss??

Oh on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that?? Are they shipping "new" ones in to take the place of those who have fallen subject to all this ethnic cleansing and genocide that's been going on??

On United Nations definition and qualifications for Palestinian Arab "right of return" could you please quote precisely what the qualifications are with regard to place of birth, proof of identity, proof of residence. That might surprise some.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

The Israelis had unilaterally removed their settlements from Gaza, so they "de-occupied" themselves of themselves, some time ago. Before the late unpleasantness I believe Gaza was, and is, under administration of Hamas, not Israelis at the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:51 PM

And by the way, under international law and the Geneva Conventions, the people of Gaza and the West Bank have a right to resist Israeli occupation, while Israel, in occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is in violation of international law, the Geneva Convention, and hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

It is illegal to target civilians. And both sides have been doing it. Both sides are wrong, and both sides are committing war crimes and violating international law and the Geneva Conventions when they do it. However, the government of the US and some other countries are only sanctioning Hamas for targeting civilians, while they assist the government of Israel in targeting civilians.

The people who use Hamas' behavior to justify the government of Israel's violations of international law and the Geneva Conventions are no better than Hamas themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Is it not against "international law and the Geneva convention to fire weapons into civilian populations with more civilian populations as cover?

And is it not actually required by legitimate governments to defend their populations against acts of war committed against their people?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

It's against international law and the Geneva convention to punish civilian populations for what their elected officials do, even if they are democratically elected. It's also a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

The majority of Palestinians that voted for Hammas are responsible for the starvation.

Hammas is the culprit as shown in several official statements by Hamas which CC choses to ignore.


EU official: Hamas responsible for Gaza war
2009-01-2009

Special report: Palestine-Israel Conflicts

    GAZA, Jan. 26 (Xinhua) -- European Union (EU) Aid Commissioner Louis Michel held on Monday Islamic Hamas movement "overwhelmingly" responsible for the outcomes of the Israeli military offensive on Gaza.

    Michel, who toured Monday the badly damaged enclave of the Gaza Strip, told a news conference that Hamas "is overwhelmingly responsible for the war waged by Israel on the Gaza Strip."

    "Launching (homemade) rockets at civilians is a terrorist action, which has to be strongly denounced," Michel told the reporters as he toured Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza Strip.

    He added that as he checked out the destruction caused by the Israeli army during a 22-day military air and ground offensive, "we should also remind that in spite of all of this, Hamas is overwhelmingly responsible for the outcomes."

    It is the first senior EU official who slammed the Hamas movement, which considered the Israeli offensive as "a great victory for the Palestinians."

    "I mean here to say that Hamas is a terrorist movement and must be condemned. If we want the EU to encourage a political dialogue that achieves calm and progress, Hamas should accept two small conditions," said Michel.

    "Hamas has to recognize Israel's right of return and abandon the armed struggle which basically has terrorist dimensions," Michel added.

    However, Michel announced that the EU would donate an urgent aid of 60 million Euros for the Palestinians. He described the destruction occurred in Gaza "as horrible that is hard to be described."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:02 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Nevertheless, that does not make what the government of Israel is doing any less of a war crime, or any less a violation of quite a few international laws as well as hundreds of UN resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM

Make decisions CarolC? If so then ALL have consequences. It is those consequences that should be taken into account before making the decision. That is simple common-sense and blindingly obvious.

You vote for a bunch of clowns to govern you, who couldn't care less whether you live or die, no sorry correction, who given the right circumstances actually prefer it if you die because its better PR for them. Who then start firing rockets and mortar bombs indiscriminately at their neighbours and historically your best trading partner upon whom you rely on for daily needs. Well CarolC you don't have to be "Master-Mind" to work out that the consequences of you voting the way you have will be disasterously detrimental to your future prosperity and well being.

As I commented before what are they? Bone thick?? Totally lacking in imagination?? Insane???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM

If anyone is trying to justify the punishment of an entire population of people because of whom they voted for, the exact same argument can be used to justify Hamas firing rockets into Israel. It's a slippery slope. The people of Israel have consistently voted for a government that has held the Palestinian people under military occupation for more than 40 years.

So using the argument that it's ok to wage war on a civilian population because of the way they vote, that would mean that it's ok for Hamas to target civilians in Israel.

There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing (and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide) of their population except to leave or lay down and die on their own. Because that is the goal, and it has always been the goal, and the government of Israel has no intention of stopping until the last Palestinian and Arab Israeli is gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:21 AM

Did anybody see the exit from Davos of the Turkish PM yesterday.

General concensus seems to be that the debate should have been extended and that he should have been given time to address Shimon Peres's question regarding what the Prime Minister of Turkey would have done if confronted with a barrage of 8000+ rockets and mortar bombs fired into turkish territory from a neighbouring state.

As it was the Turkish PM was not given time to respond and he stormed out of the meeting and out of Davos vowing never to return. On arrival back in Turkey he was given a heroes reception.

I bet that after a good nights sleep he woke up and called the guy who was "chairing" the debate to thank him profusely for stepping in to prevent him (the Turkish PM) from making a complete and utter C**t of himself in front of the world and proving beyond doubt that he is a hypocrit of the first water.

Why do I say that?? Because after the Turkish PM had given his answer about diplomacy, concessions and negotiation. Shimon Peres would have asked him why that did not apply to Turkey's dealings with the Kurds and with the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq - Correct me if I am wrong but Turkey did bomb that area?? Turkey did send in troops and armour did they not??

Of course one rule for Muslims, another for Jews, how silly of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM

"the" Palestinians are the ones who voted for and have applauded all that that very small number of Palestinians have done. If they wanted peace, and here I do mean ALL Palestinians they could have it tomorrow. Since 1920 they have consistantly shown that they do not. And CarolC if you want to get into some sort of pissing contest as who did what first, then in Palestine the Arabs started first.

Want the border crossings open - STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL - It really is that bloody simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:28 PM

There are more than 1.3 million Palestinians in Gaza. To say that "the" Palestinians are anything at all based on what a very small number of Palestinians do is not only incorrect, it's also racist. No matter what the smugglers do or did, there is/was no way to feed the people of Gaza using the tunnels. So what this means is that the government of Israel is deliberately starving the civilian population of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:21 PM

So weapons are desperately needed supplies?

"they try to make some money on it" $70,000 profit in one haul is trying to make some money at it?


As we see from the article above the Palestinians are more interested in obtaining weapons than food.

They have created their own situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:21 PM

So as we can see from that article, the tunnels are in no way adequate for bringing in the amount of supplies that are needed, just in terms of basic necessities for a population of more than 1.3 million. Relatively small numbers of people drag in small amounts of goods at great risk to themselves and they try to make some money on it, while more than 500 TRUCKLOADS per day are needed to keep the people of Gaza from slowly starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

Tunnels, The lifeline for the Palestinians in Gaza. How else can you get basic human necessities like cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives snakes, lions, Kalashnikovs, rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza under the watchful eye of the evil Israelis?


"Do you have your passport?" one of the smugglers asked. Climbing out of the hole and emerging in an Egyptian border town in the dead of night was out of the question. Jail was the least I could expect if caught.

Canvas bags thumped down into the tunnel and Abu Mutassem and friends hauled them back under the heavily patrolled border into Gaza.

Only after he had climbed back up the rope and emerged from the "eye" did Abu Mutassem check his cargo: 70 short-barrelled Kalashnikov semi-automatic rifles, individually wrapped in plastic to keep out the dirt.

Each weapon would fetch $1,200 (£600) in Gaza. They had cost less than $200 from the desert Beduin community. Abu Mutassem and his men would share about $250 dollars for each gun. The profit margin on bullets was even higher. The big winner from their enterprise would be the tunnel owner or "snake head" who had put up about $50,000 to buy the house on the border.

This week Hamas closed down 35 of these tunnels. It was unclear whether this was because of a dispute with the "snake heads" or as part of the Islamic movement's commitments with Israel under a six-month ceasefire deal. Most, though, remain intact and the "military tunnels", used to bring rockets, explosives, fighters and funds into Gaza, will not be demolished.

The operators of the "commercial tunnels" plied by Abu Mutassem and his colleagues say that the market for small arms is drying up after a glut of weapons. Like any travelling salesmen, the smugglers vary their cargo to meet demand: sometimes drugs, often cigarettes, perfumes, fugitives (going rate $2,000 a trip) and, very occasionally, even African snakes or wild animals to stock a zoo.

The "snake head" typically needs only one successful crossing to turn his initial investment into profit. He is usually quick to snap up the four-wheel-drive vehicles, the phalanx of gun-toting bodyguards, the new villa and other trappings of the successful entrepreneur.

Those left underground are less fortunate. "It's the worst job in the world," said Abu Mutassem.

Three tunnellers have died in the past two weeks. In one case a tunnel collapsed after the Egyptians pumped in water. The digger was dragged out by his feet 24 hours later by a member of one of the extended tribal families that dominate the tunnel business. The tunnelling culture is so well established in Rafah that the high street barber - the Shaheeds' (Martyrs') Salon - has pictures of dead tunnellers on its walls and mirrors, alongside their shovels and other memorabilia.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

The first violence after Israel's pullout from Gaza was committed by Israel when it killed two people in Tulkarm camp on October 23rd. Gazans responded with rockets and a suicide bombing, and after that, both sides participated in attacks on the other - missiles, artillary shellings, and closure of the border by Israel, and rockets from Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:12 PM

"Gaza gets ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise" - then the stupid b*****d's elected Hamas and the rockets started flying.

Bone thick, totally lacking in imagination, or insane - just about sums that up. No bloody wonder produce and promise flew out the window!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Actually its more complicated than that - though turning off the water caused the loss of the crops that were growing, and contributed to some initial looting, things got better for a while - here is a link to an article in the New York Times in November 2005 Gaza Gets Ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise

But Israel blocked any exports of the produce and very effectively wrecked the attempt to set up an export business to Europe which could have made an enormous difference for Gaza. This meant the greenhouses had no possibility of being run commercially - they couldn't have covered the costs of production.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

They need more than 500 truckloads of food every day. It is not possible to bring anywhere near that much food through the tunnels, even when there are many tunnels.

The water was turned off even before the greenhouses were officially turned over to the Palestinians. And only about 75 percent of all of the greenhouses were actually turned over. The rest were dismantled and moved to Israel...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46011

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses." - MGOH

Ah but Kevin the water was turned off after the greenhouses had been demolished for their scrap value - You know haow it goes, a responsible caring Government has to have rocket launchers and all that scrap metal just standing there was near as damn it perfect for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

Once again - the water to the greenhouses was turned off by Israel after they pulled out, making them totally useless as greenhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

Dear CC. This is how Israel wrecks their economy:

"The Israeli settlers of Gush Katif built greenhouses and experimented with new forms of agriculture. These greenhouses also provided employment for many hundred Gazan Palestinians. When Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in the Summer of 2005, these greenhouses were bought by the World Bank and given to the Palestinian people to jump-start their economy. Most of these greenhouses have now been looted or destroyed."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

CC You are right, there is food coming through the tunnels but it is no0t mainstream supplies.

Here is BHO's statement on the US and Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

OK CC let me simplify the questions some more.

Why do they have weapons but they do not have food?

It if were not for smuggling in weapons, why would food shipments be
hindered?

"they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter."

How can they simply inspect what comes in through Egypt? Especially through tunnels?

Why do you think Israel is in charge of inspecting or able to inspect things coming in through the Egyptian border?

"So far Egypt has kept the crossing largely shuttered, which has drawn vehement criticism in worldwide protests for not allowing in more relief supplies and doctors. Demonstrators across the Middle East have accused it of helping the Israelis crush Hamas by rendering aid passage through the borders difficult.

On Wednesday, doctors from different organizations clustered on the Egyptian side of the border in hopes of crossing over to Gaza. None received permission to enter. "We have been trying to get permissions to cross the border," says Ahmad Elwi, a surgeon and member of the Cairo-based Arab Medics Syndicate. "We came upon a call from Palestinian hospitals who asked for medics' help since they haven't been able to cope with the increasing number of the wounded."

In front of the border, trucks filled with medical supplies were lined up at the main gate. They waited for hours for Israel to stop its raid Wednesday during a temporary cease-fire to allow in humanitarian aid. When the gate opened, Egyptian police started searching each truck for about 10 minutes, making sure that only medical supplies were loaded, while getting rid of foodstuffs.

According to Khaled Atteya, the general coordinator of the Rafah crossing, foodstuffs can only be passed through the Kerem Shalom crossing, which is some 2-1/2 miles away.

"Today alone there was some 350 tons of foodstuffs crossed over the borders. This perfectly explains how the borders are open and ready to pass on aid," says Mr. Atteya.

In the meantime, the borders are closed for individuals and medics. "The situation does not allow us to send doctors now, since we can't guarantee their safety," says Atteya. The medics from the Arab Doctors Syndicate said they were aware of the security threats. "We presented a statement to the Egyptian government saying that we want to cross to Gaza on our own responsibility," says Mr. Elwi, one of 46 waiting medics.

The Arab Medics Union is headed by Abdul Moneim Abul Futtouh, a prominent Muslim Brotherhood member, Egypt's main opposition group. While the Brotherhood has been critical of the Egyptian government's policy toward Hamas, it's unknown whether the doctors' requests are being denied because of their affiliation with the Brotherhood.

Many doctors from international organizations have been waiting in Rafah for permission to cross into Gaza. None of them have been allowed except for two Norwegian medics. Negotiations with the Norwegian Embassy are ongoing to send a third medic on Thursday.

Caoimhe Butterly, an Irish activist who worked on sending aid boats from Cyprus to Gaza, has been working in Egypt to get permissions for medics.

"It is important to pressure for doctors to cross the borders to Gaza. It's a purely humanitarian issue," she says. On Tuesday, only one Norwegian doctor was allowed in Gaza by the Egyptian authorities. According to Ms. Butterly, Norway and Egypt have an agreement that allows for the passage of Norwegian doctors.

"Egypt has been saying it is reluctant to open the border area of fear of Palestinians infiltrating in Sinai. Sinai has been open before Palestinians for tens of years and they never thought of getting in," says Abdul Qadir Yassin, a Palestinian historian."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

So, ifor, what happened to the $300,000,000 Arafat was 'holding' for the Palestinians?

Naw, never mind . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

Thanks Guest ifor, best laugh I've had all day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

It won't happen - but the point is, why won't it happen? If the blockade was just about arms getting in to Hamas, there would be no reason for Israel to object to the US Navy bringing in aid, and no reason for the US government to take any notice of objections.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

To Teribus
Arafat was no "tosser" as you say. That is a meaningless insult to someone who in his own way tried to protect the Palestinian people from the Israeli oppressor for most of his adult life.
If we are going to toss sdjectives around...how about
the butcher Sharon
the war criminal Livni
and
the child killer Olmert
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:05 AM

PS Kevin:

The last shipment that was supposed to come into Gaza direct was back in Tosser Arafat's glory days - The shipment was £15 million worth of arms from Iran - The Israeli Mossad and IDF intercepted that particular one at sea and prevented Arafat from getting hold of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:57 AM

Write and suggest that to Ahmadinejad Kevin, that would kill two birds with one stone, Hamas would get the supplies that they themselves have prioritised ever since 2005 and they could cut out the middlemen thereby reducing the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Dream on...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

Now if some powerful country with a strong navy were to decide to bring in humanitarian aid by sea, and defy the blockade, who could object to that? And who could vote against a UN Security Council vote to authorise that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

Actually, Israel does control the border with Egypt.

"Following the disengagement, Israel withdrew its forces from the southern border between Gaza and Egypt. At first, many thought that this brought an end to Israel's control of the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, known as Rafah Crossing, which is now the only border crossing in the Gaza Strip that is not subject direct Israeli control. However, as time passed, it became clear that Israel retained the power to open and close the crossing at will, and since Hamas's takeover of the Palestinian security forces in Gaza, in June 2007, it has been almost permanently closed"

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp

The people who are trying to bring humanitarian aid into Gaza at this time are saying that Israel is allowing a very small trickle to enter, but that most of the supplies are piling up at the wall outside of Gaza, and that the amount that is getting in is not anywhere near enough to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/090128/2009012804.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

Well prove me wrong - Did the IDF set aside a fixed three hour period each day in order that humanitarian could be brought into Gaza? The answer to that question is an unqualified YES or NO.

And the world and it's dog knows that the answer to that question is YES.

Kevin Oh Wise One, who tells the Egyptian Government to do what??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:24 PM

The Egyptian government does what its told.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Davey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

To Teribus
Frankly you are talking through your hat! You sound like some kind of Israeli propogandaist.Keep on in that vein and you'll be telling us next that the bombing of Gaza was for the good of its reidents.C'mon man!
Davey

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

Israel does not control the border with Egypt. Hamas's inability or reluctance to moderate and control militant factions caused Egypt to close that border.

Israel has always allowed in humanitarian aid, it even allowed set aside three hours per day in the middle of their last incursion into Gaza so that these supplies could be delivered - And we saw what happened Hamas gunmen set up road blocks and stole the provisions as they were on their way to the storage depots.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

If it were just about weapons another option would be to allow stuff to come in by sea on ships. If the Israeli authorities were worried they could even specify that, for example, only ships of the Royal Navy or the US Navy would be allowed in.

And if the Israel wasn't happy with that, so what. After asll, the Berlin Blockade wasn't broken with the approval and cooperation of the Russians and East Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

One thing that it seems to me ought to be blindingly obvious is that if they were only interested in keeping out weapons and not basic necessities, they would simply inspect everything coming into Gaza, confiscate any weapons, and allow food, medicines, and other necessities to enter. They are not doing this. They are preventing anything and everything from entering.

So clearly, the blockade has nothing whatever to do with weapons, and is a form of collective punishment against the people in Gaza. Which is a crime under international law, by the way, and is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

They don't have weapons instead of food. Even if they didn't bring in any weapons at all, they still wouldn't be able to get anywhere near enough food. Someone else has answered the rest of it very well, so I don't need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

Wrong both times, I'm afraid.

The blockade covers far more than weapons, and has reduced food supplies to a trickle, a level that is totally inadequate to meet the needs of the population of Gaza.

And arms and stuff that can be used to make arms have never been more than a relatively small part of what has been brought in through the tunnels.

>I>Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005.

That comes from a page by the San Francisco Gray Panthers - Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza

And note, those figures relate to a period during which the earlier ceasefire was still supposed to be in operation - a ceasefire largely based on a promise by Israel not to impose a blockade on essential supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

One at a time CC, You are prone to avoiding questions by asking another question:

"Why shouldn't they have weapons?"

The question was why would they buy weapons instead of food? Why would they spend food money on weapons and them claim they are starving?

Why do they have to smuggle food in through tunnels? Is food illegal or something?

The answer to your smoke screen question is yes, they can have weapons as long as they use them for defense and if they do not fire missiles into another country to deliberately cause themselves to be invaded like they have engineered. Then they whine a cry and suck snot to gain sympathy from idiots to make the Jews look bad.

The blockades are for weapons, not food.

The tunnels are for smuggling weapons, not food.

"When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza"

More evidence that Palestinians want to fight, they do not want peace.

The fighting continued into 1971, however, when King Hussein finally struck a decisive blow against the Palestinians, driving them out of their remaining bases and expelling them from the country. The Palestinian extremist group Black September was named after the month in which the Palestinians were driven out of Jordan.

Yes, they were driven out of Jordan, Jordan did make peace with Israel and Jordan is a trading partner with Israel.