BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM

Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM

I have read J-Street for several years years.

J-Street is NOT the the 'political arm' of a Jewish peace movement. J-Street is a political group of mostly young professional, American, liberal Jews, who advocate and promote many liberal causes they believe affect Jews, one of which is peace as the want it in the Israel Palestine area. Much, if not most, of their agenda closely follows a classic Democratic, liberal agenda here in the United states.

Please identify the group correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

"Wow! That's a stunning smear job from Noa Bursie. I guess she's one of those people who would call her fellow Jews who support human rights for Palestinians, "self-hating Jews". "


I am sure she wouldn't. But it would see, to me at least, that she is also supporting human rights for the Jewish people too, and surely, one of those rights must be to be allowed to live in peace.

Israel has only ever wanted to live in peace. It has never been allowed to. That is not Israel's fault, but the fault of those who have continued to wage war upon her, and her people. Perhaps that incredibly important fact has been overlooked by many, at this present time.

What we are seeing is the result of Hamas leaders. 'Leaders' who hide behind and amongst their own people, regardless of their safety, not caring if innocent women, children and indeed men too, get killed and maimed in the process. Leaders? Pah! All that matters to these religious zealots, imo, is power, and the annihilation of Israel. And they will not stop, as has was proved, yet again, only last week. They will never stop. They have been brainwashed since birth. They are little more than killing machines, who happily walk amongst the dead and broken bodies of their own people, whilst putting those who have this escaped death and destruction, in even greater danger.

Read this part again:


"...There is a deep lie that permeates all things in this conflict. That Israel is labeled an "apartheid" society is an abuse of the term and a tremendous affront to those whose lives were destroyed by the institution of apartheid in South Africa. While there is a wealth of evidence to soundly disprove and discredit this accusation, one need look no further than the Israeli Knesset. There are twelve Palestinian ministers currently serving terms in the Israeli parliament. Name one nation in the entire Arab world that has a Jew serving in an official governmental capacity – one. There are Palestinian PARTIES within the Israeli Knesset - Balad and UAL. (I don't ever recall history recording indigenous African representatives within the apartheid government in South Africa.) Over one and a quarter million Palestinians live and function as full citizens within Israel's borders and attend schools, universities, social and religious activities, mosques, sports events, etc. across the broad spectrum of daily activities. Not ONE Jew lives in Gaza (except the kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit). The Nazis called that phenomenon, Judenrein. So, who are the racists?....."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

I didn't identify the J Street group at all. What I posted about them came from their "about" page.


What Noa Bursie is doing is spreading a lot of racist and hatemongering lies about Arabs and about people who oppose the military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. The one about the Arab nations supporting the Nazis, for instance. This is what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say about it...

"The Arabs of Palestine remained largely quiescent throughout the war. Amīn al-Ḥusaynī had fled—by way of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Italy—to Germany, whence he broadcast appeals to his fellow Arabs to ally with the Axis powers against Britain and Zionism. Yet the mufti failed to rally Palestinian Arabs to the Axis cause. Although some supported Germany, the majority supported the Allies, and approximately 23,000 Arabs enlisted in the British forces (especially in the Arab Legion)."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/439645/Palestine/45070/World-War-II


And she is also trying to make it look like anyone who supports human rights for Palestinians is an anti-Semite (another oft repeted hatemongering lie). Considering the fact that there are many thousands of Jews who support human rights for Palestinians (possibly millions), she must either think that Jews who do that are anti-Semites, or self-hating Jews.

There are a lot of people who believe that Israel deserves to live in peace, but that this is not what the government of Israel has in mind for Israel at this time, and that, instead, it will opt for war, as it always has, in order to increase the size of its borders, and to clear the non-Jews out of the areas that it wants for itself. I happen to be one of those. Calling me an anti-Semite because of that belief on my part is most definitely a smear, and a smear with no basis in reality. People like that use the term anti-Semite as a way of silencing dissent. That is not a legitimate use of the term anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

I think the Government of Israel has a very hard time when rockets are being fired at their country. What are they supposed to do, just sit there and let it happen?

I don't think she's saying that at all. I think she's pointing out that in Israel there are many Palestinians, living and working alongside Jews. She doesn't seem to have any problem with that at all. She then goes on to say that this way forward is not happening in Palestine.

It's true.

I'm not trying to twist her words. I agree with much of what she has to say. What you are stating is your interpetation of her words, not her words as fact.

And tell me, if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? Or is it better to have Gaza forever filled with Hamas and their utter hatred of all Jews, alongside their desire to have their own people killed and maimed, and their wish to annihilate the State of Israel?

Personally, I'd far rather see people living in peace and harmony. The Israelis are already doing this with Palestinians. Look back at my post about Aliza Hava, look at the thread on the Peace Oil products which are produced in Israel by both Arab and Jew combined.

Together is the way forward, not apart.

Until Hamas can see that, there is nothing Israel can do but continue to protect the people within her borders. To do that, she has to stop the rockets from being fired...and to do THAT, she has to target where they are coming from, and of course, the wonderful leaders of Palestine have placed their rockets all around their people.

HOW can you possibly deal with people who are not just hellbent on killing their 'enemy' but on killing their own people too?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM

It's also not anti-Semitic to say that Israel practices apartheid. Ronnie Kasrils, a South African politician, says that in his opinion, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is worse than South African apartheid...

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2007-05-21-israel-2007-worse-than-apartheid

But it is apartheid. Palestinians in the West Bank are confined to tiny bantustans that are separated one from the other by Jewish-only settlements that are guarded by the IDF, and that are accessed by Jewish-only roads, and the majority of the Palestinians' water is confiscated by the government of Israel for the use of the settlers. People in the West Bank don't even have enough water to wash themselves, while the settlers use as much water as they want to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools. People in the West Bank have to go through innumerable checkpoints just to get from their homes to their places of work, or to school, or to the doctor or the store, and they are often kept waiting there for hours and even days. Sometimes they aren't allowed through at all, and for no particular reason. Just on the whim of the guards at the checkpoints. They are often humiliated and abused by the guards, and sometimes they even die or give birth at the checkpoints because the guards won't let them through. These checkpoints don't keep Palestinians out of Israel. They are located deep inside of the West Bank.

The settlers in the West Bank regularly abuse the Palestinians and they shoot at them without suffering any consequences. They also prevent the Palestinians from being able to access their olive groves to harvest the olives, preventing the Palestinians from having their livelihood.

I think if Noa Bursie genuinely values human life, as she says she does, she would come back with an entirely different perspective on the situation if she were to ever go and spend time in the West Bank or Gaza living among the Palestinians and seeing for herself what they are experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

I, personally, am not against Israel annexing Gaza and the West Bank if the non-Jewish Palestinians would be given exactly the same rights as Jews. But the government of Israel doesn't want that because if they did that, they would lose the Jewish majority in Israel.

The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

"if Gaza did eventually come under Israel, and Arab and Jew were working, living and loving alongside one another, as they already are in some parts of Israel, would that be a bad thing? That might well be the best way forward both for Gaza and for the West Bank, in a one-state solution.

The main opposition to that would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

They may so self-describe...but they are so much more than a peace movement, as a visit to their page over the past year plus would attest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

"The main opposition to that [a one state solution] would be likely to come from people on the Israelis side."

This is true. As I pointed out before, a one state solution is a Palestine state solution within a generation...two at the most. Israel commits national suicide to agree to such an arrangement, but what the hey?!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

"National suicide"

Many white South Africans said that kind of thing when it came to talk about recognising non-whites as fellow citizens.

And it's also the kind of language which the BNP likes to use.

I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

The difference, McGrath, is that South African whites had never lived under Black rule, and so did not know what to expect. Nelson mandela was an exceptional leader.

Jews, on the other hand, had centuries of rule under Arab, Ottoman (Muslim) majorities, and the British Mandate in Palestine. History show this not to have been good for Jews. And so far there has been no Palestinian Mandela.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

Europe has a far far worse history of persecution of Jews than Islamic countries have.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM

"The reason rockets are being fired into Israel from Gaza is because the government of Israel has been waging a war against the civilians of Gaza with its total blockade, not allowing any of the basic necessities of life to go in to Gaza. The people there are starving. People who value human life don't do that sort of thing to other human beings."


But Hamas are happily watching their OWN PEOPLE being killed, Carol, and THEY are the very cause of it, because they store their rockets amongst their people!

SURELY, if they had feeling for the men, women and children of Palestine, the very ones they are supposed to be caring about, they'd store their weapons as far away from civilian populations as they can manage?

They *WNAT* Israel to be hated around the world for bombing innocent civilians, whislt refusing to accept that the reason Israel so often has to do this, is because of where they, Hamas, store and fire their rockets.

HOW can you stand up for people who do that? I don't understand. How can the world refuse to demand that Hamas stop doing this. How come the Palestinian people themselves don't demand it?

ALL Israel ever wanted was to be left in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM

Excepting the Holocaust, I might agree with you, McGrath. But in the ebb and flow of history, when Jews were tolerated in Europe, they were less so in Islamic lands; the converse appears to be true when Jews were not treated well in Europe.

That aside, however, I am speaking particularly and specifically about Jews in Palestine. Ironically, after the Roman destruction of Jewry in Judea (and renaming the area Palestine) the Jewish remnant never had it well in their own homeland...whether under Christian or Muslim rule. And history tells us that will happen there again under if there is single-state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

You can't actually get that far away from civilians in a ghetto.

But no disagreement - it would be far better if there weren't any Palestinians firing rockets at Israel. It is not a sensible or right thing to do, and it is just makes things worse (Hamas are not in fact the only people involved, a point which gets ignored). Virtually everyone agrees that.

However some people who think that believe that the same is true of Israeli bombs and shells and of the blockade on essential supplies. Others think that such Israeli actions should be supported.

It is right to try to understand why people on both sides behave the way they do. But that is not the same thing as saying that what they do is right. And that applies every bit as much to Israel as it to Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Well, more rockets out of Gaza, and reportedly Israelis have dropped warning notes on folks living near known supply tunnels.

It ain't over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Hey CarolC a simple question could you plese respond:

"on the subject of "ethnic cleansing"; "genocide" and the like could you please provide some Arab population statistics for Israel, Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to the present day? I mean if Israel has been engaged in this wholesale slaughter of innocents as you all claim I would have thought that after such prodigious efforts over the last 60 years Palestinian Arabs would be rather thin on the ground. But somehow I don't think that they are - any reason for that??"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

Driving people into exile isn't necessarily the same thing as killing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

PRECISELY McGrath! they are alive to find new homes. Beats by a longshot being liquidated.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM

Kevin, CarolC, don't avoid the question!!

Please tell us all the statistics relating to the size of the palestinian population both in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 until today.

You have shouted it from the roof-tops that Israel has been engaged in "ethnic cleansing" and in a concentrated campaign of "genocide" so can you please explain why the population of Arab Palestinians has increased in all three areas??

If you cannot explain the population increase will you please cease and desist from claiming that there is in fact any campaign of "ethinic ceansing" or "genocide" being undertaken by the Israeli Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:57 PM

High birth rate, Teribus? Maybe Israel's adherence to "Western Culture" includes an adherence to the western fashion for having tiny families of 1, maybe 2 kids.

While cultures derided as 'traditional' continue to have high birthrates, we in the West on the other hand have slowly been breeding ourselves downwards. Priority of career over family, late start in having families, high rates of abortion and contraception have all resulted in almost zero percent birthrates in many European countries (by which I mean the number of births that exceed / replace the number of mortalities every year). The same pattern can be found in the US despite some modest growth in population there (population growth should be a lot higher).

Dunno, but it might explain some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:25 PM

The Likud party opposes a two state solution. From their platform...

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."


If Likud is elected this time around, we will know that the majority of Israelis also oppose a two state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

First of all, I do not stand up for Hamas. But I do understand why they do what they do, and I don't agree with anyone's assertions that what Hamas does is any worse than what the government of Israel does. Nor do I accept the assertion that what Hamas does is unprovoked. I do disagree with their methods of waging their resistance, but their resistance is legitimate.

Secondly, they cannot help but store weapons near civilians. There is no part of Gaza that is not near civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated patch of land in the world. And I don't agree that the Palestinians should not have weapons with which to defend themselves.

Hamas is more concerned with ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than they are with spreading hate toward Israel. They have said that if the Palestinians vote in a referendum for a two state solution using the pre-1967 borders (with some possibility of some land swaps), Hamas will not oppose it. The government of Israel needs to demonize Hamas because it is using them to prevent a negotiated peace settlement. The government of Israel has no intention of allowing the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to remain there. They intend to either remove and/or kill them all, and then annex those areas without having to risk losing their Jewish majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

I chuckle at the notion of people accusing the Palestinians of not having a Nelson Mandela (or a Gandhi, which is another one people like to say). I think the real problem is that Israel has no Abraham Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM

Someone else has answered the question of population for me. I am reminded of a story that I think was told by Woody Guthrie about some rabbits that are chased into a log by hunters or something. One of them says to the other, "What do we do now?", and the other rabbit says, "I guess we'll just have to stay here til we outnumber them."

I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide. I have said that they are in the process of committing genocide. Time will tell if they will finish what they have started. If Likud gets elected, I think there's a distinct possibility that they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

"I doubt if a one-state solution will in fact emerge, but if I lived in that part of the world, whether as an Israeli or a Palestinian, that would be the one I would prefer."

Safe to say. You don't live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:33 PM

Glad I could provide a chuckle for you, CarolC. It was, however, directly responsive and on point to a statement made to me (and everyone) about Black rule in South Africa (the operative words being 'directly' and 'responsive'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:12 PM

01 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM CarolC wrote:
"I have not said that the government of Israel has committed genocide."

31 Jan 09 - 03:32 AM CarolC wrote:
"There is nothing the Palestinians can or could do to make the government of Israel stop its ethnic cleansing(and in the case of Gaza, the ongoing genocide)..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM

That's correct. "Committed" is in the past tense, and denotes an already accomplished genocide. "Ongoing", is in the present tense, and denotes a genocide that is still underway. There is a big difference between these two things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:00 AM

CarolC, I knew that was going to be your mealy mouthed answer. What you have said is a difference without a distinction. Either Israel is committing genocide or it is not. Either Israel has committed genocide in the process of committing genocide or it has not committed genocide. Have the guts to say exactly what you mean straight out.

I don't even know what you mean by an accomplished genocide. But you'll explain in your inimitable way. Was Hitler's an accomplished genocide? Was the Turks' an accomplished genocide? Was the Hutus' (or Tutsis') an accomplished genocide? They are, after all, past tense. And if yes, doesn't that stretch the meaning of accomplished beyond recognition?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide. I don't always have time to choose my words with utmost care, but when I use words that are as emotionally loaded as the word genocide is, I do use them with utmost care. The distinction is important because when a government is embarking on a course of genocide, it is not too late to stop it. But if we don't recognize that it is an ongoing genocide, we might not take it as seriously as we ought to and need to, and we might not do what is needed to make it stop until it is too late, as we saw for instance, in Europe during WWII.

In some parts of occupied Palestine, there is an abundance of graffiti saying things like "Arabs to the gas chambers" and "Gass the Arabs" and "Kill all Arabs", frequently accompanied by a "Star of David". Although Palestinians request that this graffiti be removed, they have found that the only way to get the government to do anything about it is to paint a swastika nearby as well. Then the graffiti comes down very quickly. This is the same kind of environment in which genocides become reality - especially when the behavior in question has the tacit approval of the government that is in control of the area.

When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died. However, starving a civilian population is a genocidal policy, and therefore constitutes an ongoing genocide as long as that policy is in place.

I realize, however, that it is much more emotionally satisfying to say that my words are mealy mouthed and project onto my words some other meaning than the one I intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

"When Hitler was beginning his extermination of European Jews, he had not yet committed genocide. But he was in the process of committing genocide."

Do you work hard at making up your own syntax? As soon as Hitler and his cronies, German and Palestinian [See 'Icon of Evil'], decided on the final solution and killed the first Jew, they were both in the PROCESS and the ACT of committing genocide. And I'm not even considering the masses of Jews killed in Germany before the Final Solution was implemented. There is no…repeat…there is NO difference. You are 'choosing' your words so as to say nothing.

"When a government starves a civilian population, one can't really say that a genocide has been committed while relatively few numbers of people have died."

At what number can one say a genocide is being committed? If you believe that the Israeli government is starving Gaza with the express intent of killing as many people as possible for no other reason then they are Palestinian, then you ARE implicating Israel in genocide, whether only one Gazan dies, or hundreds of thousand die. Again you said nothing in what you wrote. Are you afraid to say what you really think? I don't think so. But I do think you choose your words so you can't, to your way of thinking, be pinned down.

If Hamas had better rockets, and were better able to use them, and were able to kill thousands of Israelis, targeting as they do primarily civilian targets, would they then be committing genocide, or would they only be killing an enemy?

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I can hardly wait to find out. But I guess that will have to wait until tomorrow (Monday) night.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:57 AM

CarolC no-one has answered my question about the Arab populations of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank. Nickhere might have thought that he was providing an answer by mentioning something about Israeli birth rates but that was not the question that was asked.

If, as you say that Israel for the last 60 years has been engaged in a concerted effort of "ethnic cleansing" and "ongoing genocide" can you please tell us all how the Arab population in Gaza, Israel itself and in the West Bank has grown at the rate that it has done since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM

At the point in which a deliberate strategy or policy is developed to eliminate a population through any means that involves killing, and that strategy or policy is put into practice, that is the point at which a genocide becomes "in progress". However, at that point it cannot be said that a genocide has been committed. Only that one is in the process of being committed.

I don't know how many people need to be killed in order for it to be described as a genocide that has been committed. But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped. Nevertheless, while he was killing them, it would have been accurate to say that he was in the process of committing genocide. Remember the definition of genocide...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Hamas is not trying to eliminate the category of people known as Jews. They are trying to remove the military occupation from their country. The government of Israel, on the other hand, has been in the process of eliminating Palestinians as a people since before Israel became a state. They have been doing it both in terms of ethnically cleansing them, as well as through a deliberate denial of their existence and history. And now, since they are deliberately denying the people in Gaza the most basic fundamentals of the ability to sustain life, they are also in the process of eliminating the Palestinians as a people through deliberate killing. That is a genocidal act even though at this point relatively few people have so far been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM

I love this one from today's Jews sans frontieres...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/02/monthly-antisemitic-cartoon-rabbi-hier.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped." - CarolC

I would never have had you pegged as a holocaust denier Carol - 6,000,000+ cannot or could not in any way be passed off as "killing a few thousand Jews".

"The government of Israel, on the other hand, has been in the process of eliminating Palestinians as a people since before Israel became a state." - CarolC

Really CarolC?? When exactly?? If memory serves me correctly the only time the Jewish Settlers and latterly the Israelis ever fought their Arabs neighbours was immediately in response to an attack by those neighbours on them - the concept is known as self-defence.

By the bye CarolC how many Palstinians did the Israelis deliberately kill today??

Oh CarolC, Here are those population figures:

Late Ottoman Period 1851 to 1919:
- 1851 - total population 340,000 - 327,000 Arabs - 13,000 Jews
- 1919 - total population 565,000 - 500,000 Arabs - 65,000 Jews

British Mandate 1921 to 1948:
- 1922 - total population 816,000 - 723,000 Arabs - 93,000 Jews
- 1948 - total population 1,969,000 - 1,319,000 Arabs - 650,000 Jews

OK then CarolC a fierce degree of "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" went on before Israel came into being. The Arab population has almost doubled.

Post Mandate to present:
- 1950 - total population 2,375,100 - 1,172,100 Arabs - 1,203,000 Jews
- 2005 - total population 10,414,800 - 5,139,100 Arabs - 5,275,700 Jews

In 1950 the percentage of Jews making up the total population was 50.65%

In 2005 the percentage of Jews making up the total population was 50.65%

Rather weird figures considering all that "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

People who are unable to understand a hypothetical probably shouldn't be posting here. Try to understand the difference between these two statements...

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide had he only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped."

"But I don't think anyone would say that Hitler had committed genocide because he had only succeeded in killing a few thousand Jews before being stopped."

The first is what I actually said. The second is what a very desperate person is pretending I said.

We don't know how many Gazan's Israel has killed today. There's no way for us to know at this time how many people died today because of Israel's blockade of Gaza, which, by the way, is not in any way defensive in nature. Allowing food and other essentials to enter Gaza does not protect Israelis from anything. It is offensive in nature and is designed to eliminate a civilian population. Which is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:32 PM

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/22/american-jews-oppose-israeli-policy-in-gaza/

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/23/michael-ratner-on-gaza/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Adolf Eichmann was a war criminal brought eventually to justice in Israel.
War crimes were also committed in Gaza by Israeli soldiers who attacked civilians and women and children in particular killing hundreds and maiming thousands.
When will these war criminals be brought to justice?

This atrocity must not be filed away and forgotten.The Palestinians in Gaza, a city of refugees,must know that the killers of their children have their day in an international court of law.

I understand that Israeli battalion commanders have been told to wear face scarves to hide their identities when facing the tv cameras because some have been identified as possible war criminals and may face arrest in Europe in years to come.

Already one Israeli war planner faced a very rough reception in north London last week when dozens of protestors branded him a war criminal and tried to arrest him at a meeting.

We can't have one law for the Mugabes of this world and no law for the child killers who did their dirty work with tanks,jet bombers and sniper fire.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:45 PM

The International Criminal Court is right now looking into the possibility that it may have jurisdiction over Gaza because Israel has said that it has no authority over Gaza, and the Palestinians are petitioning it to hear their case. If so, accusations against Israel of war crimes committed in Gaza will be investigated and possibly prosecuted in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

Does that also mean that accusations against Hamas of war crimes committed in Gaza will be investigated and possibly prosecuted in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

Carole makes a very good point in her above posting.

The Israeli military is an illegally occupying military force that has behaved with the utmost brutality in the occupied Gaza.

It has imposed a blockade on the city of around a million and a half people and alarming reports are filtering out of malnutrition and hunger and i am sure cholera and diptheria cannot be far behind.

Israel has waged an illegal chemical,biological and conventional war against the Gazans and God only knows what other weapons have been tested out on the flesh and blood of the children of that city.

In answer to Teribus above,the Palestinians have been resisting an occupying army and it is no crime to resist an invader.

Check out the casualty list: 14 Isaeli dead..11 of whom were soldiers...there were thousands of Palestinians maimed ,over a million terrorised and over a thousand killed.Apparently the number of actual Palestinian fighters killed in action was quite low.

Israel waged its war against civilians massacring them in their houses with bombs and tank shells,slaughtering them in UN schools,blasing their clinics and hospitals and shooting them in their dozens as they tried to flee under white flags.

I know the zionists on mudcat won't agree but there is huge anger across the world and people want to see those who planned and executed the mass murders brought to justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

"...there is huge anger across the world and people want to see those who planned and executed the mass murders brought to justice."


Then ask Hamas to step forward and explain why they have deliberately had their people killed, by putting their weapons right deep amongst them, knowing that Israel would have to strike back and strike the place where those weapons were coming from.

You may get some interesting answers.

Or..

You may get.....absolutely nothing...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Israel has not signed on to the ICC, so it cannot try to bring any cases before that court. So my guess is that Hamas will not be tried in the ICC.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

At the point in which a deliberate strategy or policy is developed to eliminate a population through any means that involves killing, and that strategy or policy is put into practice, that is the point at which a genocide becomes "in progress". However, at that point it cannot be said that a genocide has been committed. Only that one is in the process of being committed." 02 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM from CarolC

That is just about the most Orwellian statement you've ever made, especially in light of your quoting a definition of genocide later in your post.

When one cuts through the verbage, the quotation marks and the italics, what you truly have said is, "When the strategy or policy [of purposefully and systematically killing a population] is put into practice, it IS genocide." (and yes, I know you did not actually write those words, so don't tell me I put words in your mouth.)

If that is what you believe is happening, say so! Straight out! Take the kudos from those who agree with you, and the heat from those who disagree with you.

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I thought by now you'd have made a definition up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

Israel does not have to bring charges, anybody can.

The war crimes charges that can be laid at the door of Hamas are:

- Treatment of prisoners of war
- Deliberately endangering the civilian population by storing arms, munitions and explosives where civilians are used as human shields
- Mounting attacks from buldings containing civilians
- Deliberate indiscriminate targeting of civilian centres of population.

Very pleased to here the Israeli PM's warning of the intended use of "disproportionate" force in response to future rocket attacks from Gaza, I particularly liked the bit about "tit-for-tat" now being over - not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:54 PM

Just a reminder since I don't do HTML, the italicized words in your post were 'has been committed'.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

er Lizzie,
Gaza is a surrounded strip of land.I believe it is about 40 miles long and a couple of miles wide. It is the most densely packed place in the world. It is surrounded by barbed wire and the sea.

Its borders are controlled by Israel which has total air dominance and a navy which is shameless and ruthless in pounding ,for example ,picnicers on the beach but civilian targets in general.Its only airport was destroyed a few years ago by the Israelis.

The Palestinians have a few thousand lightly armed fighters with rifles and mortars and not much else apart from those home made rockets which are like super fireworks and which mainly land on open spaces.

Are these fighters supposed to line up on some open field to be blown up?

I remember the Americans used to say that those pesky vietcong would not fight fair with their hit and run tactics ..and the americans lost in the end.

I dont think the Palestinians can beat the might of Israel backed by the USA and the UK on their own but it is also clear that Israel simply can't pulverise the Palestinians into submission.The Palestinians under the Israeli solution either die slowly ..or they die quickly.

The Israelis for all their superiority were also unable to free Shalit presumably because they were unwilling to venture on foot deep into the heart of Gaza...That man has suffered enough! The Palestinians say they will release him after the illegal blockade is lifted and Palestinian prisoners are released simultaneously. There surely is the basis for a ceasefire or truce but it is Israeli intransigence in the pursuit of victory which is the obstacle to progress.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM

I'll try to simplify it for the slow learners.


Past tense:

Committed genocide


Present tense:

Committing genocide


What's the difference between these two things? When Hitler was systematically killing Jews, at what point was he committing genocide?   Was it while the killing was ongoing? Or was it only after the last Jew was killed by Hitler that what he was doing could be described as genocidal? Or was there some magic number beyond which his systematic and deliberate extermination of human beings became genocide, but not before?

Extra points for those who are capable of articulating an intelligent response without resorting to insulting language (a lot to ask for, I know).