BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

BTW I forgot to ask you, do you agree with me that if I moved my extended family into my neighbours' houses I would only be asking for trouble? Or do you think it would be an exemplary way to ease tensions?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Teribus, hmmmm. Maybe I did miss your point. My illustration of burning rubbish was just that, an illustration of how friction can develop among neighbours. I wasn't trying to suggest the issue in the Holy Land to be simply about burning rubbish.

You hardly think that on the estate where I live we routinely open fire on each other with automatic weapons and missiles? Nonetheless friction can and does arise and can get out of hand quickly if not justly nipped in the bud. It has required me on more than one occasion to bite my tongue and stay my hand... that's the price of peace, but it's worth it. Not too many miles from where I live there is in fact an area where the neighbours literally are killing each other over an insult traded in a disco almost ten years ago. I don't have the figures to hand but I estimate there have been about 10 murders so far about that particular thing. Is it really worth all that? Some people seem eager to resort to violence but once on the tiger it's much harder to get off.

What do you think of my point, as I put it idiomatically, about things improving if Israelis stopped stepping on palestinian corns?

I think Finkelstein put it well in his interview (see link above) - when asked if he supported Israel, he answered "I do not support states, I support principles". That seems an excellent starting point.

I am loyal to my own country and I defend it and its democratic program and history in debate when and if the case arises. But if tomorrow my government passed laws that made Jews (or Muslims) into second class citizens my support would dry up in a second. That would no longer be the country I 'signed up to'. I would become one of its harshest critics. Anything else is just blind and foolish obedience.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:39 AM

Here is an information source with a focus on efforts to build non-violent resistance among Palestinians Palestine News Network Independent Palestinian News Agency

As the last post reminded us, these efforts get a pretty hard time from the Israeli authorities. Not surprisingly, because non-violence is ultimately a much more formidable force for human rights than the kind of violent resistance which generates support for the far more lethal state violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

Muhammad Humus,a Palestinian Human Rights activist, was arrested at gunpoint when Israeli police burst into his East Jerusalem apartment at gunpoint terrorising him and his children in doing so.
Mohammad was accused of stirring upobjections against the recent invasion of Gaza...as if Palestinians needed any stirring up.The television images of dead and maimed civilians and children did that job.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:39 AM

There will a big demonstration in support of Gaza tomorrow [saturday] in central London starting outside the BBC headquarters .

The demonstration will be calling for:
1 An end of the arms trade from the UK to Israel.
2 The bringing of war criminals to trial in an international court
3 Free Palestine!
for further info about the march details go to the Stop The War website.

In another development the BBC has apparently refused to allow an appeal for humanitarian relief for Gaza by to be broadcast on its networks.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Martin Harwood
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM

I found
this book very moving. It's diaries written by teenage christian Palestinian girls from the West Bank as part of a school English language project.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:24 AM

Nickhere your post of 22 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM misses the point I was trying to illustrate. You wanted to know what "not having a right to exist" meant. I'll go back to my illustration - your neighbours want you dead, they want to destroy you and all trace of you in the neighbourhood. It's got damn all to do with with "burning rubbish" and petty annoyance. Now if you are capable of imagining such a situation, then that is the situation Israel has found itself in for the last 60 years and its a situation that the Jews in Palestine have lived with for 89 years.

John in Kansas has laid it out perfectly, as with most things in life it comes down to selection, a matter of choice and learning by experience. In the case of the Arabs of Palestine they have consistantly shown poor judgement in which course of action to select and in their choice of leadership. After 60 years plus, I would have thought that experience would have caused them to rethink a few things in order that they might thrive and prosper.

As it stands it reminds me of the conversation that Picton reportedly had with Wellington at Waterloo as they watched D'Erlon's attack in column approach their troops formed in line:

"They come on in the same old way, so we will just have to beat them in the same old way"

When the cease-fires were announced a few days ago in Gaza there must have been quite a feeling of deva vu on both sides, and no doubt once Hamas has replenishedtheir supply of rockets the fighting will start again - their choice and the wrong one - once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:40 AM

Nothing like having a slave uprising once & a while to get the blood flowing

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM

John on the Sunset Coast,

The information you are receiving seems very one sided. Gaza is little more than a refugee camp. It certainly does not have the potential of being a paradise as long as Israel keeps bombing its infrastructure with munitions paid for with our tax money.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:46 PM

I should clarify what I said about Israel controlling Palestinians' access to water. It's not Israel's water that they control Palestinians' access to, but the Palestinians' own water that Israel controls. There are many Palestinian families who don't even have enough water even to wash and do laundry because Israel strictly controls how much water they can use from the wells they've been using for generations (and sometimes not allowing them to use the wells at all), while nearby (Jewish-only) settlements are allowed to use the water for swimming pools and watering lawns.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

I should mention that the above listed denials of Palestinians' rights by Israel happen in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as well as in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have any rights. Israel can and does control where they can live, or even whether or not they can have a place to live, how they can make their living (or prevent them from making a living), whether or not they can have water or other necessary utilities, whether or not they can see their families in the other territories, or even other parts of the same territories, whether or not they can fish in their own waters, whether or not they can leave the territories and go to other countries.

Israel can and does control whether or not they can receive medical care, go to university, marry Israelis and live with them in Israel, live with spouses that are from other parts of the occupied territories, import or export goods to or from other countries, whether or not they can have the taxes they collect from their own people. If the Palestinians democratically elect a party the Israelis don't like, the Israelis can and have completely blockaded them and prevented them from being able to carry on making a living, and prevented them from being able to bring the basic necessities of life into Gaza, so they do not have the right to vote for the party of their choice.

Under Israeli military rule, Palestinians do not have the right to life. The Israeli military can and does kill them for any reason or for no reason, can does humiliate and abuse them for any reason or no reason. Settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem can and do do the same, and none of the people who do these things are ever punished. Settlers in the West Bank can do whatever they want to Palestinians there without ever experiencing any consequences.

Israel can and does kidnap and imprison Palestinians for no reason and without any charges being made against them, and they can and do hold them for as long as they like. The Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons have no rights to any kind of due process.

The measure of whether or not someone has any rights is whether or not someone has any legal recourse if they are not treated as if they have rights. Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have any legal recourse to correct these things. There are no codified rights that protect them from these violations by the Israeli government. There is nothing they can do to change these things because they are not recognized by the Israeli government as having rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:46 PM

Thank you, Nickhere, for sharing your real life experiences... Many here just sit in front of their little screens and regurgitate the company fight song no matter how out of key it may be...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM

John, maybe I'm wrong, but I think in the case of Fatah, there are two factors:

1) one of the reasons for Hamas' electoral success is that they were seen as far less corrupt than Fatah by the voters. Fatah has become more of something like a secondary policeman for Israel, and its members are probably content to get the money provided they are left to vegetate in peace. Hamas by contrast was seen as being at least more honest (which also makes me highly suspicious of attempts to portray Hamas as palestinians' own worst enemy rather than the nation that dropped tonnes of bombs and missiles on them)

2) A sense of hopeless despondency prevails in the West Bank. Palestinians - like the native Americans of long ago - see there is nothing they can do to stop the colonization and expropriation of their lands and homes by Israel and Israeli colonists. If they even try throwing rocks in frustration or anger they risk being shot dead in return, and colonists meanwhile are free to harass them however they wish with little or no recourse for the victims. So what you can't do anything about, you might as well accept, though that does not make it just.

But the key thing now is, where does the world go from here? How can this problem be resolved in a way to make as many people satisfied with the solution as possible, and in a fair and just way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

Teribus, just a quick last thought; my impression (and apologies if I'm wrong here) is that you are setting out from the viewpoint that Israel's Arab neighbours, let's say the palestinians in particular, simply cannot get on with with Israel. By the same token you also seem to suggest that the base reason for this is simply because they ARE palestinian; that something that no sane person can fathom is wrong with them, and genetically they are pre-disposed to carnage and hatred. Therefore the only solution is to 'contain' or destroy them.

Ummm. I think you can't fail to see what's wrong with that line of thinking and how doomed it is to failure.

MY point is rather that if Israel stopped stepping on Palestine's corns, they'd probably find palestinians to be fairly good neighbours, even if like my own neighbours, they'll never be bosom buddies.



BBRuce - thanks for the link, had a look at that, have bookmarked site, looks interesting. will see if I can find Italiain page as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

Of course Gazans have rights...their leaders exercised those rights to build a wonderful Edenlike paradise. Oh, that was the dream. They exercised those rights to harass nearby Israeli towns and kidnap Israeli soldiers. Then they cried foul when Israel retaliated. Maybe Hamas doesn't have the best interests of their citizenry--oh right, they're not citizens--of the commonalty of Gazans. Maybe they'd rather fight Israel than build a country.

I notice there is little belligerency towards Israel from the Fatah controlled West Bank. I also don't see IDF troops blowing up munitions stores and tunnels there. D'ya think maybe there's a reason Gaza has become a hell hole, while the West Bank is pretty calm? Is, maybe, there an example for Hamas and Gaza on the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

I live in an area with lots of houses. Some of my neighbours are very nice, others are not. I have learned which things bristle with my not-so-nice neighbours and try my very best not to rile them on those issues, even though some of the things they do cause me a degree of nuisance.

If they do something that I really cannot live with I first try and talk to them then as a last resort would refer the matter to the police / a solicitor.

I would not dream of kicking down their front door and opening up with an AK47. This would be looked on rather badly by the world at large, plus if I was unfortunate enough to kill any of them it is certain they would want revenge and would lie in wait for me, or my wife or other members of my family, to try and return the harm I'd inflicted on them. Then I'd have a choice of raising the stakes and killing a few more of them, and they would kill a few more of me.... and I think you can see where all that leads eventually.

Another thing i would not do: if the government decided to give me a home in this neighbourhood cause I didn't have one and couldn't afford one of my own (in fact I bought my house while not all of my neighbours had to buy theirs) I would be glad of the house, move in and make it as nice as possible for myself.

I would not, once again, kick in my neighbour's front door, have a look around, and seeing that the upstairs bedroom and living room were nice and spacious announce "I'm taking these" and then phone my extended family and say "right, you can move in whenever you want".

If my neighbours objected to this, I wouldn't call a few big friends of mine to come round and sort out my 'cheeky' neighbours (who do they dare think they are anyway, telling me I can't live in their house?)

Finally, if my neighbours and I got off to a very bad start and banded up on me, yes I would barricade my house, defend myself physically to the best of my ability and within the law if they intruded into my house, refer it to the authorities.

But I still would not move any of my large family into my neighbours houses and give them a free hand to rough up my neighbours whenever they want. That would only be adding fuel to the fire.

Now that's because I want to live in peace, and get on with my neighbours and my life.

I had a few run-ins with one or two families early days, but I found ways to get around these problems peaceably without resort to violence, though I am ashamed to say that there were nights when I lay awake thinking of how I could burn their cars or do some other harm to them without getting caught. So, yes, I do understand when people are driven to violence by the apparent hopelessness of a situation (on both sides). Can you imagine what would have happened had I taken that course? I'd be living in 'Baghdad' now, unable to leave my house for a day or two safe in the knowledge it wouldn't be burned down or broken into in my absence. Nowadays we manage to get along, though we will never be friends as such, at least the situation didn't escalate into something worse from which we would ALL suffer.

The key problem with your analysis (if I may) is that it posits Israel as a country just quietly minding its own business until, out of the blue, along came an Islamic spider, and sat down....

Of course we both know that's not a very accurate picture. Sure, I know all about 1948, 5 Arab armies etc., (though the phrase is misleading, conveying as it does an image of Mongol hordes, rather than the ramshackle and small outfits the arabs fielded). But even before that there was Irgun, Stern etc., and all the tit-for-tat leading up to 1948.

Now as I said above, even if you get off to a bad start with some of your neighbours as I did it is possible to row back from total disaster (e.g Egypt, Jordan). And deep down my neighbours know I'm here to stay. Once we found a way to all extricate ourselves while saving face (this is very important, and requires some generosity of spirit) they were happy enough to leave me be, and I, them. Of course it would require me not to interfere with them either - and not to try living in their house if I was not welcome.

(and the trouble started simply because I asked them not to do things that interfered with my quality of life, such as burning their rubbish nearby and the rubber-smoke smell fill my house if I inadvertantly left the windows open. Though we fell out over this, nonetheless because neither of us escalated the issue, I did notice that they started to burn it further away and eventually stop altogether. Prayer is also useful for achieving this end, for those of you out there who are believers, BTW).


Off to say a prayer for both sides for the mo'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:29 PM

T, you got balls to ask Nick where he lives. the pot calling the kettle

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

Nickhere where do you live?? Do you have any neighbours?? If you do can you imagine that everybody living round you wants you dead that is what 'not having a right to exist' would mean.

Now having taken that aboard, consider this, that your neighbours have banded together and decided that the only way that they can carry on living as they do is if the completely destroy you, your property and all your kith and kin.

OK Nickhere, the ball is in your court, what's your next move?? By the bye you cannot just relocate yourself, that is not an option.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

Those serried ranks question marks John put up there are a bit strange. What Carol said there wasn't even controversial.   

Some people may think the lack of rights for Palestinians in the occupied and subjugated territories is a bad thing that can't be helped, some people may think it's a bad thing that could be helped, and there are probably some people who think it's a good thing.

But that they do lack the ordinary rights that people in other countries expect as a matter of course cannot seriously be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Jts
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

>>There are Moslim Arabs living in Israel and West Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Israelis, as well.<<

I believe if you research this, you will find that they are discriminated against in a number of key ways. They do not have the same voting rights as Jews. They do not have the same rights to travel. That they cannot marry whomever they want. All of this in furtherance of Israel's "right to exist" as a "Jewish state" American democracy is predicated on ALL men being equal. Israel claims to be the only true democracy in the region, but by objective definition, their democracy is highly flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

Regardless of the endless and cyclical finger-pointing, I am glad that Obama has officially brought George Mitchell into this... Had Bush not poo-pooed the plans presented by Mitchell back in '02 then there would have been no Iraqmire and there might very well be a two state situation in place today...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:42 PM

Carol is correct ...East Jerusalem,the West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel.They are occupied territory.Occupied by a military with bristling firepower and in the case of the West Bank occupied by recently arrived armed settlers often of the most extreme kind, who have been attacking Palestinian farmers and villagers.In addition, these settlers aided by the Israeli state have been stealing farmland,grubbing up olive groves and orchards and diverting scarce water supplies from the indiginous Palestinians.

The giant Apartheid Wall has been built on occupied land and in the process has cut off villages from neighbouring farmland and separated towns from outlying villages and divided families who now live on opposite sides of the wall.

The Apartheid Wall is of course guarded by soldiers who are quite likely to beat or shoot those who try to cross it or who demonstrate against it.The injured include many brave young Israelis who have protested alongside Palestinians against this monstrosity.

During the course of the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem hundreds of thousands of Palestinians including women and children have been arrested and served time in prison.Many of these have been imprisoned without trial and there are widespread, well founded , allegations of torture and ill treatment of those imprisoned by the Israeli state.
ifor
ps... BB is incorrect when he says that Moslems arabs are not being discriminated against in Israel and West Jerusalem.
Also many Palestinians are christian and they too suffer discrimination as Palestinians in the land of their birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM

It happens to be the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

They and every aspect of their lives are entirely controlled by the government of Israel, and in particular, the Israeli military. The Palestinians living in those areas do not have any rights under Israeli military rule. Because Israel is in control of those areas, the people in them do not even have the right of nationhood, and therefore they do not have citizenship to any country, including Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no rights whatever, and they have no citizenship to any country.

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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no rights whatever, and they have no citizenship to any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

However, my mention of the lack of discrimination against Jews in the occupied areas is to correct something that was said by someone in a previous post who said that Jews are not being given full rights of citizenship in the Palestinian occupied areas. That was the only purpose for my making that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM

I disagree with your assessment. They have rights, far in excess of the rights given Jews in the Arab nations.


And far greater than they had when Jordan had control of the West Bank, from 1948 until 1967. Although ANY of the refugees that wanted to, and were willing to renounce violence against Israel were given the chance to become Jordanian ( the Arab Palestinian Homeland ) citizens. Sort of like your saying that Jews who left can go back to Arab nations, and be treated far worse than Moslims are in Israel- they had the choice, so they have no further rights ( according to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:42 PM

The government of Israel is discriminating against all of the non-Jewish people in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (as well as all non-Jewish people who do not currently have Israeli citizenship, but would like to). The government of Israel has total control over the lives of the people in those areas, and yet it does not allow them to have citizenship to any country, and it does not allow them to have any rights whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:39 PM

And when I say the government of Israel will not permit them to go into Gaza, I am not talking about Jews who want to build apartheid settlements. I'm talking about Jews who want to live in Palestinian villages with the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

There are Moslim Arabs living in Israel and West Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Israelis, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Changing the subject and twisting my words isn't going to work.

There are Jews who would like to go into Gaza, but the government of Israel will not permit them to do it. There are Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and they are not being discriminated against by the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

"Obama said that going forward, Hamas must end rocket fire at Israel, and Israel must "complete the withdrawal of its forces from Gaza." Although those steps were taken this week, low-level violence has marred the fragile cease-fire.

Obama said his administration will support a "credible" system of ending smuggling into Gaza.

He said he's "deeply concerned" by the loss of life among both Israelis and Palestinians, and by the suffering taking place in Gaza. He said his heart goes out to civilians who are going without food, water or medical care.

He said Gaza's borders should be opened to allow aid to come in, with "appropriate monitoring." "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

"no differently by the Palestinians than they treat each other."

I had thought that you said this, and given the Hamas takeover of Gaza, the result of wich was hundreds of dead Fatah members...


Carol, there are MILLIONS of Moslims living in Israel. You point out the few Jews, married to Palestinians, and claim that this proves Israel is wrong???

You have never addressed the many Jews removed from the West Bank and other areas under Moslim control from 1948 until 1967- THEY have the right to move back, according to you ( previous comments) So why are the settlements wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

No, living as Palestinians in Palestinian villages, some of them married to Palestinians who are not allowed to enter Israel, and having little Jewish-Palestinian babies who are not allowed to enter Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

Burning tires around the neck and being thrown off buildings???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:57 PM

It is incorrect to say that the Palestinian territories don't allow Jews to become citizens. The non-Jewish Palestinians don't have citizenship to any country, so they are not in a position to grant citizenship to anyone else. There are, however, Jews living in the occupied territories who are treated no differently by the Palestinians than they treat each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

McGrath, there is some truth in what you say. Europe's record re the Jews has been abysmal...'has been' being the operative words. The record since the end of WWII has been rather good, with few exceptions. But if the Holocaust taught us anything, Jew and non-Jew, Jews need a safe haven in the land of their origins.

There has been no time in the Islamic world where Jews have been permitted full participation, up to and including Januray 22, 2009. This is not to say that Jews were never tolerated, nor that some Jews even attained high position in the Islamic world (11th & 12th centuries)...but they have never had anything near full rights of citizenship.

In pre-Israel Palestine this was true, and in Palestinian territories it remains true. I would reiterate the history of Arab riots towards Jews in the 19th and early 20th century, but you've already read about them at the 'Cat and other places, or not.

While this may not prove implacable enmity on the part of Muslim Arabs, it comes pretty damned close.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

And by the way, I didn't make the revision in my 22 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM after being called on what I said in the previous post. There are no responses between the post that was revised and the revision (check it out). Nobody called me on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Joe:

You reminded me of something else I've heard. That American Jews when visiting Palestinians are treated differently from Israelis. Palestinians think of 'Americans' in a different niche and from the folks I talked to (some time ago) they were startled and reminded their Palestinian acquaintances they were Jews the response being: "Oh, but you are Americans".

On the other hand, the first Palestinian I met, also some time ago, was when I cooked dinner for him as the guest of a family I was cooking for. I got some face time with him after dinner, and, being interested in Arabic music I was trying to get him to explain some songs but I made a point of 'dropping the hint' so he knew I was Jewish. He couldn't resist telling me the hadith of the final war between Muslims and Jews when guess who gets finished off. I knew him on a friendly basis for years after that, but I never forgot that the Palestinians not only feel displaced, but they feel like displaced masters with a destiny. Ah, the power of religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

In his remarks, the President stated that the ongoing state of hopeless for the people of Gaza is intolerable.

The Israeli leaders all say that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DannyC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

Obama and Clinton just introduced George Mitchell as a special envoy to the Mideast.

In his remarks, the President stated that the ongoing state of hopeless for the people of Gaza is intolerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM

I fail to see why we are waiting on the Arab nations. What the governments of the Arab countries are doing has nothing whatever to do with the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

Good job, Israel, for not discriminating against gays and lesbians. Now, if Israel will extend its non-discrimination policies to those Palestinians who are not gays and lesbians, Israel will no longer be guilty of discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

BeardedBruce said: Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.

McGrath of Harlow replied: When has that ever happened? Some of them have been allowed to stay in their homeland, but when it comes to newcomers, or returning exiles, no way.

CarolC said: I definitely think we should tie our aid to all of those places based on their providing equal rights to their citizens.

For many years, Israel has been providing sanctuary for Palestinian gays and lesbians, both Muslim and Christian, whose sexuality puts them at serious risk of being murdered, often as honor killings by their own families.

Being an "out" lesbian or gay, or even as suspected lesbian or gay, is tatamount to a death sentence in Palestinian society.

Israel recognizes this and provides shelter to gays and lesbians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

I repeat:


Waiting on the Arab nations now, it seems.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Europe has a far far worse record than Islamic countries when it comes to oppression and persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust. The notion that there is an implacable enmity between Jews and Muslims is a false one.

The hope of a future in which the artificial antagonism between the sister religions has been swept away in Muslim countries as well as in Christian countries is perfectly reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:08 PM

When someone realizes that they didn't frame something in the best possible way, and they know that some people will not understand what is meant without revision, it is not a dance to clarify the point. It is an ad hominem to call such a revision a dance, however.