BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM

Is This What It's All Been About?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

Yes, anybody can if they are signatories to the court. The question is, is there any signatory to the court who will bring charges against Hamas? Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:41 PM

That would explain all the rhetoric about "Iranian backed Hamas" that Israel and the US media were using as their drumbeat for the last several weeks.

Israel has to work fast to destroy Iran soon because Iran's going to be having elections this summer and it doesn't look to good for Ahmadinejad to get reelected. Without Ahmadinejad as their boogey man, it will be a lot more difficult for them to make a case for bombing the shit out of Iran, especially with Obama in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

"Gaza is a surrounded strip of land.I believe it is about 40 miles long and a couple of miles wide. It is the most densely packed place in the world." ifor

Let us now dispel famous myths.

"here's a useful corrective here to the lie that Gaza is the most crowded place on Earth:

    The UK politician George Galloway wrote in The Glasgow Record last month that the Gaza Strip is "the most densely populated piece of earth on the planet." Galloway wrote that 1.5 million Palestinians live there.

    Daoud Kuttab, a Palestinian journalist currently teaching at Princeton, wrote March 26 that Gaza is "one of the most densely populated places on earth, with 3,823 people per square kilometre." Kuttab's figure is in line with recent Gaza population estimates of 1.4 million.

    If Galloway's estimate of 1.5 million Gaza population is correct, this is almost 4,200 people per square kilometer. The Central Intelligence Agency projects that the Gaza population will reach 1,537,269 in July. This would bring the density to 4,270 people per square kilometer.

But this isn't even as crowded as Tel Aviv. Gaza had plenty of problems. But they are nothing - nothing - to do with population density:


    Both Singapore and Hong Kong have more than 6,000 people per square kilometer. Tel Aviv has more than 7,000 people per square kilometer. If you count the suburbs of Tel Aviv, the metropolitan area with its population of 2.3 million has a density of more than 5,000 people per square kilometer, which is considerably more crowded than the Gaza Strip as reckoned by Galloway or Kuttab or the CIA.

    Selected estimates of population density:

    Mumbai
    27,209 people/sq km
    http://www.mcgm.gov.in/

    Kolkata
    24,000 people/sq km
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata

    Tel Aviv
    7,445 people/sq km
    (385,000 people, 51.8 sq km)

    Hong Kong
    6,352 people/sq km
    http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/population.pdf

    Singapore
    6,252 people/sq km
    http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/keyind.html

    London
    5,100 people/sq km

    Tel Aviv metro area including suburbs
    5,050 people/sq km
    (2.3 million people, 453 sq km)

    Moscow
    4,900 people/sq km

    Tokyo/Yokahama
    4,750 people/sq km

    Warsaw
    4,300 people/sq km

    Gaza Strip per CIA projection
    4,270 people/sq km
    (1,537,269 population July 2008, 360 sq km)

    Gaza Strip per George Galloway
    4,167 people/sq km
    (1.5 million people, 360 sq km)

    Gaza Strip per Daoud Kuttab
    3,822 people/sq km

    The numbers for London, Tel Aviv metro area, Moscow, Tokyo/Yokohama and Warsaw are from the City Mayors site."
    http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/stephenpollard/631851/gaza-is-not-too-crowded.thtml

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:14 PM

"Was it while the killing was ongoing? Or was it only after the last Jew was killed by Hitler that what he was doing could be described as genocidal?"

It WAS genocide when he killed the first Jew (and others by the way) after planning a systematic extermination. During the time he was exterminating Jews, it WAS genocide. And when the killing of Jews was ended, it Was Still genocide. Even if there might have been a day, perhaps Weinachten, during that period when not a single person was exterminated, it was still genocide. Nice try using the word 'genocidal' to try to obfuscate your point....but no cigar.

"Slow learners": is that some sort of ad hominum attack that you criticize others for?

And I still don't know what you mean by an 'accomplished genocide'. I'm beginning to think you don't either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

More on the definition of the word, genocide...

        
"It is a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the U.S. Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals.

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. In proposing this new term, Lemkin had in mind "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves." The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazis with "crimes against humanity." The word "genocide" was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.
        

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide" as an international crime, which signatory nations "undertake to prevent and punish." It defines genocide as:

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM

Oh, ok. I stand corrected then.

What Israel is doing to the Palestnians is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM

Bobad, I'm a slow learner (CarolC told me so) so let me see if I understand your last post.

Are you telling us at Mudcat, that despite the propagandist reporting re the Gaza Strip, that small area does qualify to be on David Letterman's Top Ten List of most densely populated areas (per square kilometer)? Did you also cite sources so that others can check them? Did you even revise downward the figure for Tel Aviv so that it wouldn't seem like you were exaggerating?

You know, I think even this slow learner learned something today.

Great bit of research, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM

CarolC the Orwellian mealy mouth said so. Some people can dish it out...


On another note...

Hasbara online

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM

...that small area does qualify to be on David Letterman's Top Ten...
should read: DOES NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:47 PM

Gee whiz, golly, I was just funning with you in my response to Bobad. I guess you didn't see the humor. It's okay.

Regarding your recent posting of definitions of Genocide" Are the Bold clauses/sentences your emphasis within the defintions? Are they found that way in a secondary source that you used? Or are they actually written that way in the original documents?

What ever the case, I obviously do not believe those portions emphasized reflect what Israel is doing in Gaza. What I believe is going on, and what some others here also agree, is that Israel is acting directly on provocations, and trying to be as accurate as possible in the targets they attack. Do they sometimes hit the wrong target? Unfortunately they probably do, sometimes. That is certainly not genocide in any of the definitions you posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

I bolded what was written. I did not change anything.


The blockade targets civilians. When the basic necessities for life such as food, water, shelter, and medical care are withheld from a civilian population, there is no making excuses about accuracy. In such a case the civilians are being targeted. That would fall under this category...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM

I forgot to include the link with my 02 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM post...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007043

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:51 AM

Hamas War Crime:

Treatment of Prisoners - Gilat Shalit

"That man has suffered enough! The Palestinians say they will release him after the illegal blockade is lifted and Palestinian prisoners are released simultaneously." Guest ifor.

It is illegal to take hostages and demand your enemy comply with demands in exchange for that prisoners well being or release.

Other illegal actions relating to his imprisonment are that he has no direct contact with his family or with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Nobody knows whether he is alive or dead - last word was that he meant less than a cat to his captors - case of mind over matter eh CarolC, Guest ifor, they don't mind because he doesn't matter.

This of course will most likely turn out with the return not of Gilat Shalit but with the return of the body of Gilat Shalit.

If there is one law for the goose it should be the same law for the gander. Perhaps Israel should treat their Hamas prisoners in the same manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:20 AM

The Palestinians consider Shalit to be a prisoner of war..and I think they are right to do so.

He could have been released ages ago but Israel would not release its prisoners in exchange.

By my rough and ready reckoning there are thousands of palestinians languishing in Israeli jails.They are being held illegally by an occupying power which refuses to obey UN resolutions to leave the occupied territories.

Israel has also held women and children in its prisons and the jail ,I think called Kiam, controlled by its proxies under Israeli supervision in south Lebanon was a by word for cruelty and torture.

Human Rights groups have had plenty to say about Israeli torture,mistreatment or neglect of Palestinians prisoners.
I am not even sure if the Red Cross has access to Israeli prisons.

It must be hell for Shalit in his jail and I want to see him released. I also want those nameless Palestinians held in Israeli jails to walk free at the same time.

The problem is the state of Israel has become a killing machine and is in the contol of extremists who believe they can bludgeon the palestinians into abject surrender....the release of a single Israeli prisoner is not a priority for Livni and those other blood soaked murderers.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

Over the years there have been plenty of prisoner exchanges between Israel and Palestine. Usually it is on the order of 200-300 Palestinians for a couple of Israelis. Several times it has been live Palestinians for a couple of Israeli corpses (so they could receive proper Jewish burial rites).

One wonders how many of the thousands of Palestinians released have returned to the planning, leading, fighting or otherwise supporting Palestinian acts of war and terror. We know what the corpses have done, 100%!

When Israel finds the time right, prisoners will be exchanged once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:59 AM

To John
Unfortunately for Shalit your sentiments are the sentiments of the ruling group in Israel...and that could well mean a long period of confinement for Cplr Shalit .
You call the Palestinians actions "acts of war and terror" but I want to know how are the Palestinians supposed to defend the theft of their land,the demolishment of their homes by those giant bulldozers,the shooting of their young people with rubber bullets, the economic blockade of starving Gaza the numerous daily racist humiliations that go to make up this never ending illegal occupation by a military force?
Is there any" legal" form of Palestinian resistance to this continued illegality by this violent state?

Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:08 AM

If Israel is trying to commit Genocide on Palestinians, then it should be using the same technique on the polar bears. They would triple their population in a few years.

Hamas is in a state of war with Israel, does not go by any standards of warfare such as Geneva, and does not hesitate to kill their own people without benefit of a trial if they are considered a threat in any way. They have killed far more Palestinians than the Israelis, including suspected informers and sympathizers, violaters of the Hamas interpretation of Islamic law, members of Fatah, and, of course, civilians who they use as shields and cover.

Carol, your version of the history of Israel and Israeli borders is severely colored everytime you give it because you include motivations you ascribe to Israel as opposed to just staying with facts. The war of Israeli Independence was fought against Arab States which were well armed and staffed, and the Palestinians for the most part fled in obedience to broadcasts by the Mufti who wanted them safely out of the way while the Jews were dealt with. This much is fact. What isn't fact is your argument that in '48 the Jewish side was motivated by desire for more land. I think it is more likely they were motivated by survival.

That having been said, it is no crime for Israel to seek borders that insure her survival. Having absorbed a large population of displaced Jews, it is reasonable to expect Arab countries to absorb a similarly displaced ex-Palestinian population.

The one-sided viewpoint that Israel must absorb the Palestinians as well is a major obstacle to Peace. Israel is expected to retreat to former borders which were themselves determined by conflict, AS WELL AS accept in incoming population which will end its existence as a Jewish State.

If Israel is expected to accede to multiple demands, any one of which can lead to her destruction, why be surprised when she accedes to NONE of these demands?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: soulkat9
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:17 AM

World Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:34 AM

Guest Hugo - I see you ignored my first two graphs as if I wrote about Shalit in a vacuum, but I expect responses like that.

As to how this unfortunate war can be ended?

Well, for starters, Hamas,, Hezbullah and Fatah can negotiate in good faith as did Egypt and Jordan, and implement any agreement decided. Israel thought Yassir Arafat was negotiating in good faith during the Oslo Accords and again during the 2000 Camp David brokered, by Bill Clinton.

But Arafat reneged on both! Another, Intifada began, perhaps with the secret blessing of Arafat.

Have you, GuestHugo, ever wondered what a wonderful country a Palestinian state might might be by now, where refugees become citizens, and where, perhaps in economic union with Israel, cities and towns flourish. Children go safely to school. Businesses prosper and jobs are available both in Palestine and in Israel.

Palestine reaps the whirlwind for Arafat's perfidy, moral weakness and greed as Palestinian leader--16 years of wars and killings. I despise his memory for what he did to Palestine, and to Israel as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:41 PM

Israeli airstrikes respond to medium-range rocket

Aron Heller, Associated Press Writer – 31 mins ago AP –


AP JERUSALEM – A medium-range rocket from Gaza exploded in the Israeli city of Ashkelon on Tuesday, and witnesses said Israeli warplanes responded before nighftall with airstrikes on the tunnels used by the territory's militant Hamas rulers to smuggle in weapons and supplies.

The latest fighting came as Hamas delegates met in Cairo for talks with Egyptian officials trying to mediate a long-term truce with Israel.

The Grad rocket from Gaza was the first of its kind to be fired at the city of 122,000 since informal cease-fires were declared separately by Israel and Hamas two weeks ago at the end of Israel's bruising three-week-long offensive. The rocket exploded in an open space in the middle of the city and no one was injured, police said.

The Grad is distinctive from the home-made projectiles more commonly used by Hamas and smaller militant groups, as it is manufactured abroad, has greater reach and carries a more powerful payload.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak pledged that if Hamas held its fire Israel would do likewise, while violence would be met by violence.

"If there is quiet then there will be quiet," he told reporters during a tour of northern Israel's border with Lebanon. "If it is necessary to deal another, even stronger, blow then at the right time and in the right way an additional and stronger blow will be dealt."

Residents near the Gaza-Egypt border said they received telephone messages from the Israeli military ahead of the airstrikes warning them to leave their homes ahead the airstrike. Such warnings are becoming routine.

The recorded messages, in Arabic, said people who work in tunnels, live near them or are "giving logistical help to terrorists" should evacuate the area immediately, residents said.

Israel launched its Gaza offensive on Dec. 27 to halt near-daily rocket fire from Gaza at Israel targets. Sporadic rocket and mortar fire from Gaza has continued, however, prompting tough warnings of reprisal from Israeli leaders.

More than a dozen rockets and mortar shells slammed into Israel on Sunday. The following day Israel fired a missile at a car in the town of Rafah, killing a Palestinian militant, and bombed the nearby Gaza-Egypt border, seeking to destroy tunnels that Hamas uses to smuggle in weapons and supplies.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni pledged to keep hitting Hamas as long rockets continue to be fired at Israel, and she ruled out negotiations with Hamas.

"Terror must be fought with force and lots of force. Therefore we will strike Hamas," she said at a security conference Monday. "If by ending the operation we have yet to achieve deterrence, we will continue until they get the message."

Continued violence could work against Livni's government in the Feb. 10 general election and bolster hard-line opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu, who is seen as the front-runner.

Ashkelon was hit by nearly 100 rockets during the Gaza fighting. Following Tuesday's rocket attack, a local parents' union called for classes to be called off. But city officials announced that school would be open as usual.

Netanyahu later visited the site and pledged to force regime change in Gaza if he is elected.

"A government led by me will topple the Hamas government in Gaza and bring peace and security to the south (of Israel)," his office quoted him as saying.

At negotiations in Cairo, Hamas' top demand is opening of Gaza's borders with Israel and Egypt. The crossings have remained sealed to all but a trickle of supplies since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007 from its rivals in another Palestinian group.

The Hamas delegation, which includes officials from its exiled leadership in Syria, also was to be briefed by the Egyptians about their separate meetings with the Israelis. Hamas and Israel do not negotiate directly.

Israel does not want any deal that gives Hamas a role in controlling Gaza border crossings out of concern that that would permit continued weapons smuggling.

Israelis feared the threat of a two-front war with Lebanon's Hezbollah militia, which held its fire during the onslaught in Gaza. But the Israeli government believes Hezbollah is planning an attack against Israel, or Israelis abroad, to mark the Feb. 12 anniversary of the killing of a senior Hezbollah commander in a car bombing the militia blames on Israel.

The Israeli National Security Agency is warning all Israelis traveling abroad to be extra vigilant for fear of murder or kidnap attempts by Hezbollah agents.

Barak said Lebanon's government, which includes Hezbollah, could also face retaliation if Israel is attacked.

"Hezbollah is not just a terror organization running around the hills but also sits at the Cabinet table in Beirut," Barak said. "Therefore the Lebanese government bears overall responsibility and any attempt to attack Israel will be met with a response."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

The version of history that is being colored is the one that paints the situation as if Israel is being asked to give up something that was its in the first place and that it is being asked to absorb people who were not there in the first place.

Right now, what I am saying, is not that Israel should be asked to take in anyone who is not there now. Even though someone keeps trying to frame the situation in those terms, that is a very dishonest way to frame it. What I am calling on Israel to do is to stop ethnically cleansing people from where they are now. And it's not my coloration of the situation to say that this is what they are doing and have intended to do all along. The leaders of Israel have made it clear that this was their plan since before Israel was even a state.

It is not in the least bit legal for Israel to expand its borders for any reason whatever. It is a violation of international law, to which Israel is a signatory, for it to expand its borders. It is illegal for it to take land by force. It is illegal for it to wage a military occupation of lands outside the pre-1967 borders. It is illegal for it to transfer its own population into areas that it occupies. So yes, it is most definitely a crime for Israel to expand its borders. And no matter how many times people repeat the lie that the Palestinians left voluntarily, that will not make it true.

Those people in Gaza: where do they come from, and why are they so mad?

The above link contains a day by day account (with pictures) of the Jewish taking of Jaffa by force, and it gives accounts of Palestinians fleeing (and being driven into the sea), more than four months before Israel even declared its independence.

The old lies are just that - lies. There is too much historical evidence available for people to be able to get away with repeating the standard Israeli propaganda lies any more, and the more people persist in trying to mislead the world by telling them, the more they convince the world that nothing Israel says on any subject should be believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM

I should rephrase this part...

"The above link contains a day by day account (with pictures) of the Jewish taking of Jaffa by force, and it gives accounts of Palestinians fleeing (and being driven into the sea), during the more than four months before Israel even declared its independence."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

I have just read that one of Israel's leading right wing politicians...Avital Lieberman was a signed up member of the Kahane party...regarded even by aggressive zionists as a dangerous and basically mad outfit of gun crazed paramilitaries.
Lieberman's group believe they will do well in the elections.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

GuestHugo--

In the United States (I don't know where you're from, so you may not know this), Robert Byrd is the longest serving US Senator--55 years or more. Sen. Byrd was a high ranking official--Grand Cyclops--in the Ku Klux Klan, a group that regularly harassed and lynched Negroes...which is not the 'N' word they used. The KKK, and similar groups, still harass Blacks, less often lynching (or otherwise killing them). Some feel he has been a pretty good senator, but I disagree.

So your point about Avigdor (not Avitel) Lieberman is precisely what? It appears he was a member of Kach when he first moved to Israel, but it does not appear that he had any special status in the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

My point is quite simple ...the emergence of Lieberman as a major player in Israel goes some way to showing how the mainstream politics of Israel have moved to the far right in recent years.

This is the man who is out to "get" the Israeli arab parties in the Knesset and the man is likely to emerge as a more central figure in Israeli politics after the election.

However,he will have to go a long way to beat the war crimes committed by the present group of child killers .

The news emerged today that Israel used a type of shell called a "fleshette" in densely packed Gaza.

I am no expert on these things but the shell is fired by a tank and consists of thousands of 4 cm sharp darts which maim and kill when the shell strikes its targets...apparently the darts scatter at speed over a large radius and one can only imagine the damage done in a street ,market or open space. They sound like a sophisticated nail bomb designed to kill and maim...and that is precisely what they did to young kids and women.

Livni and the rest of that wargang have to be held to account for their murderous acts...because it wasn't war it was barbarous crime against a civilian population which had nowhere to run to.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM

There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it.

Whether or not Lieberman will be a major player may depend in part on what Palestinians decide what the want. Palestine makes a lot of demands, but doesn't offer much in return--a prisoner here, a few Jewish dead there. In times of war, hardliners are more apt to be elected.

They do offer Jews the possibility of living in an Islamic dominated country. That's an offer to good to pass up! Christians had that deal in Lebanon until the 1970s; it worked rather well until the incursion of Palestinians, a state within a state, into that former oasis of the Mediterranean.

Lastly, when children are no longer used as direct or indirect shields there will be no more child killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM

"There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it."

Wrong!!!!

There will be peace when Israel decieds to take it's foot off the neck of Palestinians & puts their heads inside a yoke, when they have been beaten so badly that they'll come to except slavery over extermination, when Israeli will bury them in their own ground & then build their house over their graves, until then Israel will except nothing less, unless it the Palestinians retreating to the tunnels & staying there.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM

"There will be peace when Palestine leadership wants peace. When Jordan wanted peace, it got it; when Egypt wanted peace it got it."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:57 AM

Israel wasn't looking to toss the Egyptians & the Jordains off their land & move in, were they?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM

An interesting viewpoint that I think has merit...


Tackling a Fallacy in Gaza

By Michael Gerson
Friday, January 30, 2009; Page A19

Israel's recent operations in Gaza began in an atmosphere of criticism, including the widespread prediction that the use of force wouldn't "solve anything." Since, in this view, a negotiated peace is the only eventual answer to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is a mistake for Israel to engage its enemies in an endless cycle of violence. Hamas in particular would only be strengthened.

This augury of futility was wrong. Israeli forces, responding to an intolerable provocation, inflicted lopsided casualties on Hamas, which displayed a discrediting combination of cowardice and brutality. Hamas fighters used civilians as shields instead of shielding civilians -- and some Palestinians seemed to resent it. Hamas leaders hid in the basements of hospitals while ordering public executions for Palestinian rivals, acting more like members of a criminal gang than a nationalist movement. Allies such as Iran, Syria and Hezbollah provided little practical help to Hamas, probably calculating that its rocket campaign against Israel was suicidal or at least foolishly premature. The international boycott against Hamas is holding. And the scale of missile attacks on Israeli citizens has been dramatically reduced.

"This hasn't solved the problem," retired Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland, a former Israeli national security adviser, told me. "But it has introduced a completely different cost calculation for Hamas." The launching of Hamas rockets against civilians now has a predictable price -- the essence of deterrence. The smuggling of weapons to Gaza through Egypt remains a challenge. But Hamas leaders are currently occupied, Eiland argues, "not just rebuilding buildings, but rebuilding their political standing and legitimacy." And this makes Hamas more likely to keep a cease-fire.

While Israel's military operations didn't accomplish everything, they also didn't accomplish nothing. But the "force doesn't solve anything" argument runs so deep for some that real-world outcomes matter little. Military action by Israel is always counterproductive, because Israel must eventually negotiate with its most bitter enemies. The sooner the better.

Call it the Fallacy of the Eventual Answer. It is true that the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is two states living side by side in peace. But it is false to say that the fight against terrorists and the security of Israel have no part in achieving that goal.

Peace negotiations generally have preconditions, including the security of both parties. If Israelis are convinced that the "peace process" really means impunity for terrorists who attack them, Israel will want no part of that process. If Hamas leaders remain confident in their impunity -- convinced that their most effective strategy is to kill Israeli citizens while hiding behind their own -- they will not be in the proper mood for meaningful negotiations, either. Recent military operations have addressed some of Israel's justified fears and, perhaps, tamed some of Hamas's murderous arrogance.

According to Daniel Schueftan, a senior research fellow at the University of Haifa, Israel faces a "strategic challenge -- a civilian population that lives a few miles from terrorists -- for which we don't have a strategic solution. But we have found some operational answers. In Defensive Shield [the building of Israel's security wall], we brought down suicide bombings by 95 percent, exclusively with coercive force, not politics."

"It is a fairy tale," he says, "to say there are no answers through coercive force. The only things in life that have solutions are crossword puzzles. We have not solutions, but answers -- operational answers that reduce terror to a tolerable level. It is what we do with crime. It is what we do with terrorism."

Would peace negotiations be even a remote possibility if Israel were still besieged by suicide bombers, leaving bloodstains and bitterness at Israeli cafes? So the ugly but effective security wall actually served a purpose in peace negotiations. The same can be said of the establishment of deterrence through the Gaza offensive.

It is amazing that this argument remains an argument, especially after America's experience with the surge in Iraq. For years, military and diplomatic experts have argued that the ultimate solution is Iraqi political reconciliation rather than military force. Which was true, eventually. But the achievement of security through force, it turns out, was a precondition for the process of reconciliation to move forward. The Fallacy of the Eventual Answer actually delayed the peace.

We can try to imagine a world of diplomats without soldiers, but it would be no more peaceful than a society of therapists without policemen. Coercion is not the ultimate source of peace -- but peace is sometimes unachievable without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM

Gaza: UN says Hamas seized food aid and blankets
AP - Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:38:19 AM
By DIAA HADID

AP Hamas police in Gaza seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday, threatening to fracture relations between the international agency that cares for most of Gaza's residents and the territory's militant rulers.

Hamas policemen forcibly broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening and confiscated 3,500 blankets and over 4,000 food parcels, said Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.

Gunness said the incident was "absolutely unacceptable."

He said police confiscated aid meant for 500 families after U.N. officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Similar U.N. aid packages had already been distributed to 70,000 residents over the past two weeks.

Ahmad Kurd, the Hamas Minister of Social Affairs, did not deny the seizure of the aid Wednesday. He charged the U.N. was giving the aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents.

"UNRWA did not do what it said it would do, and began distributing its aid to groups that tie their activities to political activism," Kurd said.

Israeli officials have charged in the past that the militant group routinely confiscates aid meant for needy Gazans, but Gunness said this was the first time Hamas had seized its goods since taking control of the territory in 2007.

The U.N. agency provides food, education and health care services to more than half of Gaza's 1.4 million residents.

Hamas is under pressure to provide aid to Gazans, who are facing more hardship than ever since Israel's devastating three-week military offensive, which ended Jan. 18. The operation, aimed at halting rocket fire from the territory, killed hundreds of civilians and left thousands destitute after their homes were damaged or destroyed.

Tensions between Hamas and the U.N. could make it difficult for the international agency to continue providing desperately needed services.

Some international donors had expressed concern that funds meant to rebuild Gaza could fall into Hamas' hands, and the U.N. had been trying to assuage those concerns.

The United Nations is expected to take a leading role in rebuilding Gaza, because Israel and the international community will not deal with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:10 AM

U.N. backs off claim Israel struck Gaza school

    JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations has backed off a claim that Israel struck one of its schools in Gaza.

The Jan. 6 incident, in which 43 Palestinians were killed, has been a major point of contention between Israel and the United Nations over the Gaza military operation.

The U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, Maxwell Gaylord, said Monday that the Israeli mortar shells landed in the street near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency school in Gaza and not inside the school, which was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Ha'aretz reported.

In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school. Israeli army officials have said previously that the two mortar shells could not have done the damage and caused the deaths that occurred near the school. Officials also have maintained that they did not target the school but fired in the direction of Hamas gunfire.

A teacher inside the school compound at the time of the airstrike told Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper last week that no one was killed inside the compound in the wake of the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM

If Likud is elected this time around, we will know that the majority of Israelis also oppose a two state solution.

That is absolutely not true. Opinion polls in Israel consistently show that 70-80% of Israelis support a two state solution and the territorial compromise that will be needed to accomplish that.

There are 36 political parties running in this Israeli elections and the 120 seats in the Israeli Knesset are aportioned according to each party's vote totals. That is to say, a party that gets 10% of the vote will get 10% of the seats.

The latest polls show Likud as the leading party projected to win between 28 and 34 of the 120 seats.

That means Likud is drawing 23-28% of the vote.

Even CarolC should know that 23-28% of VOTERS does not constitute a majority of ISRAELIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

Israel has just about scuppered any possibility of a just and workable two state solution by allowing, and indeed encouraging, around 400000 Zionist settlers on the illegally occupied West Bank which would have been the home of a Palestinian state if the two state solution could have been realised.

These settlers are armed to the teeth,behave like paramiltaries and their bullying of the Palestinians who live near them is a daily occurance.

They shoot,beat up and generally intimidate young and old alike.

The Israeli police and security forces usually stand by and watch and barely lift a finger to stop the settler violence and thuggery.

The situation has got so bad that Israeli human rights groups have provided the Palestinian farmers with video cameras to record the beatings and intimidation...and you can see these on the net. Its not a pretty sight seeing Settler thugs attacking homes,cars and people.

It seems to me that the two state solution has become unworkable because of the short sightedness,greed and arrogance of successive Israeli governments,always backed by the might of the USA of course.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Somewhere in this thread there was a post proclaiming that the Israelis were banning two Arab Israeli Political Parties from the forthcoming ballot and election. This little snippet was trumped as illustrating how "undemocratic" Israel was.

Where is the person who wrote that thread and why have they not retracted the accusation??

Both parties appealed the ruling under israeli law and won - both parties will take part in the election.

By way of contrast, in Gaza, opponents of Hamas just get shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:16 PM

Palestine has had at least five bites at the apple of peace, 1949, 1967, 1973--all after major fighting, with several Arab countries abetting them--and under the aegis President Clinton, and after the Israeli pullout from Gaza respectively. Palestine chose, instead, the bite from the apple of discord.

So if Palestine wants to get the foot of Israel off its neck (as you so inelegantly characterize it, Mr Finn), perhaps it should stand tall, suck it up and realize that Israel is going to remain as Israel, and recognizing the need for a true, lasting and peaceful co-existence side by side of Israel.

They do not get to dictate the terms...they must negotiate in good faith. Any agreement must allow Jews unfettered access to Jewish holy sites. It must grant citizenship to Jews living within its borders, just as Arabs who stayed in Israel are citizens of that country. Those Jews who do not want to be citizens of Palestine, must relocate back to Israel or emigrate to other countries.

When Jews say 'never again', it means more than no more holocaust. It means, too, that when when some glib demogogue wishes to blame Jews for the troubles of their country, and foments violence against Jews, there will be a place in the world, albeit very tiny, where Jews can live freely. It means that if there is a country that disallows the practice of Judaism, there is a place that Jews can go and be Jews. Israel is, and will remain, that place

History has shown that from the first century BCE (AD) to February of 2009 these things happen...over and over again. As the countries of the world fragment into tribal units, there is no reason to think the world will be any friendlier to Jews or Israel.

This is my last post on this thread. I have said everything I need to say. All of you Israel bashers are now free to roam about the cabin and do your thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

I said this moning that polls indicate Likud will win 28-34 of the 120 seats in the Israeli election.

A new poll published today says 27

"The Kadima Party has also pulled closer to the leading Likud Party in advance of Israel's Feb. 10 national elections, according to the Ma'ariv/Teleseker poll released Wednesday.

The poll found that Likud is leading with 27 seats, followed by Kadima with 23 seats. Both Israel Beitanu and Labor are polling with 17 mandates.

In other results, the religious Sephardic Shas Party polled at 10 Knesset seats, the left-wing Hatnua Hahadasha-Meretz at six seats, United Torah Judaism at five seats and Arab parties Hadash and United Arab List each with four."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:57 PM

Just thought a few folks would want to read this article again.

"U.N. backs off claim Israel struck Gaza school

    JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations has backed off a claim that Israel struck one of its schools in Gaza.

The Jan. 6 incident, in which 43 Palestinians were killed, has been a major point of contention between Israel and the United Nations over the Gaza military operation.

The U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, Maxwell Gaylord, said Monday that the Israeli mortar shells landed in the street near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency school in Gaza and not inside the school, which was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Ha'aretz reported.

In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school. Israeli army officials have said previously that the two mortar shells could not have done the damage and caused the deaths that occurred near the school. Officials also have maintained that they did not target the school but fired in the direction of Hamas gunfire.

A teacher inside the school compound at the time of the airstrike told Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper last week that no one was killed inside the compound in the wake of the attack."

Thanks for posting it, C Ham.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:49 PM

"In the hours following the strike and ever since, the United Nations, the media and Palestinians in Gaza have accused Israel of striking the school."

I'd like to know who these "United Nations" people are.
It makes one wonder what their agenda is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:41 AM

The UN folks in Gaza are well-minded people trying to do there best- but they see a need to support Hamas in order to get their job done. If they do NOT support the claims Hamas makes, they will lose any chance to do what good they can.

THAT is why it is essential to get information form ALL sides, and sift through for the truth- rather than accept any one report as definitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

To Bobad
The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags.
Of course the Israeli military does its best to deny responsiblity but the evidence is there to see....thousands of buildings destroyed,racist filth scrawled on walls,schools,clinics hospitals and civic offices blown up.
Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia over the mass murder in Gaza but I don't think they will get away with it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

"The Israeli military is covered in the blood of innocent,men women and children,They behaved like some barbaric Waffen SS unit killing and maiming thousands of civilians..... men,women and children.Many were slaughtered under white flags."

You are so fulla shit. Marxism went down the tubes. Give up the lingo. It's not language; it's jingoism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM

"Now it is clear that western governments are going to try to throw a collective blanket of amnesia . . . "

Uh, ifor, Hamas stole the fuckin' blankets. Or do you just read shit that denigrates Israel? Asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM

Hams stole blanets, agreed, they are criminals

Israeli forces murdered women, children, innocent civilians, over 1100, they are exterminators!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:50 PM

If the objective were extermination (gee, such loaded language) do you really think the Israelis would have screwed it up so badly? Besides, Barry, Hamas has the extermination of Israelis--JEWISH Israelis--in their fucking charter. What the hell kinda guy ARE you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:15 AM

The United Nations halted aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday, citing Israeli attacks on its staff and installations hours after it said tank fire killed one of its drivers as he went to pick up a shipment.

    UN spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the UN coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle was marked with a UN flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza. The Israeli army said it was investigating.

    "The UN is suspending its aid operations in Gaza until we can get safety and security guarantees for our staff," spokesman Chris Gunness said. "We've been coordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continues to be hit and killed."

    UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement saying that he "condemns the IDF firing on a United Nations aid convoy in Gaza."


Sounds terrible. Only problem is, Hamas Killed UNRWA Driver

    Hamas snipers killed a United Nations worker who was driving a supply truck into Gaza, a MDA medic said Thursday evening. The medic evacuated two wounded UN workers to Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon.

    The medic based his report on testimony from IDF soldiers, who went into Gaza to rescue the two wounded Arab workers. The workers suffered gunshot wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

The evidence is in on Islamist terrorism

From Melbourne to the Middle East, terrorists want to kill

February 06, 2009 Article from: The Australian

ABDUL Nacer Benbrika is morally on a different planet from the rest of us and it is about time people who think the terror threat is exaggerated realise it. Benbrika was sentenced in a Melbourne court on Tuesday to 15 years for terror offences. Six of his henchmen also went to prison. The cause of their convictions explains a great deal about the way Islamist extremists, some mad, some bad and all dangerous to know, will twist the tenets of the honoured Muslim faith into a justification of mass murder. Their example shows how terrorists, from Melbourne to the Middle East, think and act the same. And it demonstrates how enemies of Israel in the West, who explain terrorism as an inevitable response to the problems of the Palestinians, miss the point. The grim reality is that for religious zealots with murder on their mind, any excuse will do.

Anybody who believes Benbrika was a misguided man who did no harm in the end should consider the evidence against him. Despite Australia giving him a home, and an unearned social security income paid to support his seven children, he was keen to kill as many of us as he could. Certainly, he said Australians deserved to die because of the country's involvement in the war against Saddam Hussein. But he also argued Islam sanctioned death for unbelievers. That Benbrika is as incompetent as he is irrational and never launched an attack does not matter. The World Trade Centre attackers were not highly trained combatants either -- struggling to fly a plane straight. As judge Bernard Bongiorno said in court, "terrorist acts as they have been experienced in modern times are often carried out by amateurs whose principal attribute has not been skill, but rather zealous or fanatical belief".

For an example of the fanaticism Justice Bongiorno points to, it is impossible to beat Samira Ahmed Jassim, who was arrested in Iraq this week. This woman is an enemy of the emerging Iraqi democracy and expressed her political opinions by organizing 28 terrorist attacks. Her modus operandi was to arrange for women to be raped and then tell them the only way they could erase the shame was to blow themselves up, taking unbelievers, in this case ordinary Iraqis, invariably Muslims, with them. The pointless brutality of such crimes beggars belief for all but those who see mass murder as a form of worship. It is nonsensical to suggest that it serves any political purpose. Nor does the way the Hamas Government of Gaza uses suicide bombers and rocket attacks. Hamas has the despicable distinction of deploying the first female suicide bomber. That 2002 attack killed two, wounded 150 people and accomplished precisely nothing. Nor did the Hamas rocket attacks that led the Israeli army to intervene in Gaza last month. Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel in open war and there was no chance that Muslim nations would come to its assistance. But attacking Israel at every opportunity makes sense to anybody who believes in a divine directive to destroy the Jewish state.

It is time for people who believe Western decadence and the Iraq war are the cause of terror attacks to accept the obvious. While Islamic extremists sometimes dress up their motives in the language of conventional politics, they are at war with everybody who does not agree with them. The vast majority of Muslims understand this and recognise there is no place in their faith for terror of the Hamas and Benbrika kind. Opposition to sectarian conflict was one of the reasons Iraqis voted against religious candidates at last weekend's provincial elections, with Shia religious parties losing control of five of the seven provinces they previously ran. It is also time for enemies of Israel to stop blaming the Jewish state for war crimes it did not commit, presumably on the assumption that anything that makes Israel look bad helps Hamas, the ostensible ally of innocent Palestinians. Last month, UN officials in Gaza said Israeli forces had mortared a school where they knew civilians were sheltering. It made international headlines and undoubtedly encouraged Muslim anger all over the world. But it wasn't true -- and the UN knew it. There is no reasoning with Hamas terrorists and the Benbrikas of the world and no case for any argument that explains their actions as anything other than acts of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:23 AM

Film footage of the UN school being shelled and photographs of it being hit with white phospherous (children in the compound were killed in this attack)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmT0MjlPpRo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:29 AM

1000