BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Well, in my book when one write one thing, and changes it when one get called on it in order to change one's original meaning...I call that dancing. You can call it ad hominum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Robomatic -
I met a number of Palestinians in Israel, and yes, I suppose they have their prejudices against the Israelis. Again, there's a striking comparison to the semi-hidden racism I saw in Detroit and Milwaukee in the 1950's and 1950's. The Palestinians were the "servant class," and they looked on Israelis as the oppressive "ruling class."

Palestinians can be very subservient and polite in the presence of Israelis, and then seethe with anger once the Israelis have left. And yes, they sometimes say things about Israelis that are not very nice. And yes, that anger is often directed at Israelis who are NOT oppressive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

My posting history is consistent in this regard.

Ad hominem attacks are what people resort to when they've run out of legitimate arguments. It is necessary to paint the opponent as a bad person when one is trying to legitimize reprehensible and unsupportable policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

You keep on dancing, girl!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM

I should revise my last post a bit. I think that we should tie our aid to the willingness of those countries to not discriminate against anyone based on religion or ethnic group, regardless of whether or not they are citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

I definitely think we should tie our aid to all of those places based on their providing equal rights to their citizens. If they discriminate, we should withhold our financial support.

If Israel doesn't want to incorporate those areas that are under military occupation (I include Gaza in this, even though the occupation is enforced from the other side of the prison wall), then its only other two choices are to finish the ethnic cleansing of all of the remaining indigenous people of the region, or to withdraw to the pre 67 borders, or some other mutually agreeable set of borders, and to end its interference in the Palestinians' ability to function as an independent nation. Israel is not showing a willingness to allow the latter (its rhetoric notwithstanding), so I guess ethnic cleansing is the option they've decided to go with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

To declare that the Jewish Homeland is required to have non-Jewish citizens when the Arab Homeland actually prohibits Jews from citizenship ( with no adverse comment by most here) seems a little more racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

CarolC and McGrath

The United States remains the largest single state donor to the Palestinian Authority. We have provided $562 million in total assistance in 2008, surpassing our pledged level of $555 million. This includes $264 million in project assistance through the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs (INL); $150 million in direct budget support - the largest single tranche for funds provided to the Palestinian Authority by a single donor country; and $148 million in contributions to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).
Source: U.S. Department of State

Perhaps you'd like that aid cut off too?

Additionally, the US provides monetary aid directly to
Egypt
Jordan
Lebanon
Syria

Perhaps you'd like to cut off that aid too?

And provides aid indirectly to Saudi Arabia and other nations through purchase of oil, rather than using our own resources to mitigate that need.

Perhaps you'd like to cut off that aid too?

We know how those countries and most Islamic countries, treat women citizens (they count, don't they?), and Christian citizens, but they hardly need to treat their Jews at all...there are few, if any.

McGrath, CarolC and all you others who want to fold Israel back into a greater Palestine/Israel state...ain't happening, no way, no how, except by the total annihilation of Israel. [I can see the glee] History has shown that when Jews live among Arab majorities, their rights are curtailed, and they're subject to periodic Pogroms. When Arabs control Jewish Holy Sites, Jews have no access to them. While a large chunk of Israel citizenry is Moslem, Palestine doesn't even allow a Jewish neighborhood anywhere. Gee, that sounds fair to me!

If there is allowed to exist teens of Islamic countries throughout the Middle East and Africa, surely there can be one Jewish country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

The Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are living under Israeli control and they have no rights whatever. And they are not all Muslim. They are also Christians. To suggest that it is simply an issue of whether or not Muslims are allowed in Jerusalem is a straw man. However, to suggest that the Palestinians who are living in those areas should be denied any rights whatever because of what the governments of countries they have nothing whatever to do with are doing, just because they are all Muslims (even though they are not), or because they are all "Arabs" is an entirely racist thing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM

McGrath,

1. Define HOMELAND- the Brits in 1923 established Transjordan ( 77% of Mandate Palestine ) as the Arab/Moslim Homeland, and the remainder (23%, including the entire West Bank and Gaza) as the Jewish Homeland.

2. Show me where Moslims are NOT allowed to settle in Israel, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.

When has that ever happened? Some of them have been allowed to stay in their homeland, but when it comes to newcomers, or returning exiles, no way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:12 PM

Gaza tunnels back in business

Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 2 mins ago AP –

Palestinians work on constructing new and repairing old smuggling tunnels, damaged during the Israeli …

BBC RAFAH, Gaza Strip – Hundreds of workers toiled in southern Gaza Thursday to repair dozens of tunnels dug under tents or fake greenhouses while smugglers brought in food and fuel just days after Israel ended a barrage of bombs and missiles aimed at cutting off the supply route from Egypt.

The renewed smuggling underscored how difficult it could be for the Israeli military to meet one of the key goals of its three-week offensive: preventing Hamas militants from bringing weapons into Gaza through the porous Egyptian border.

Some 1,285 Palestinians, most of them civilians, died in the Israeli operation, launched Dec. 27 to end Hamas' rocket fire on southern Israel and to cut the group's suspected arms route from Iran.

The military said it had destroyed 60 to 70 percent of the tunnels before Israel declared a cease-fire on Saturday. The smugglers in Rafah, a southern Gaza border town where nearly all smuggling tunnels are dug, told The Associated Press that the destruction was probably even higher.

"I'd say that only one out of 10 tunnels is still intact," said Abu Rahman, a tunnel manager who asked to be identified by his nickname because of his smuggling activities.

He and other smugglers estimated there were about 1,000 tunnels functioning in Rafah before Israel's offensive. Most were dug after Israel sealed off Gaza from the outside world following Hamas' takeover in June 2007.

While some tunnels were used to bring in weapons, many were used to circumvent the Israeli blockade and get basic goods into Gaza. The tunnels, about 15 yards deep and 1.5 yards high, run several hundred yards underneath the border.

Abu Rahman's own tunnel was quite seriously damaged, and 10 workers were shoveling underground to get it working again.

"It should take about a month, we're going about as fast as we can," he said.

With so many tunnels out of service, the laws of supply and demand have driven prices up, Abu Rahman said. Sacks of goods like potato chips, clothes or cigarettes that transferred for $40 each before the offensive could now go for as much as $400, he said.

Abu Wahda, another smuggler, said he'd been lucky.

"I fixed the damage in three days, we're functional since this morning," he said, overseeing the winch that hurled a large pack of potato chips 15 yards up from his tunnel.

While both traffickers insisted they had never considered bringing weapons for Hamas, Abu Bilal, another colleague repairing his own tunnel, said he wouldn't mind doing so.

"But frankly, the resistance never asks us to," he said. "I think they've got their own tunnels and don't want to pay us," he said.

As the men spoke, hundreds of workers could been seen working near a no-man's land with Egypt, busy fixing dozens of tunnels.

The buzz of generators filled the air, and one restaurant owner who had reopened his snack bar amid the digging said he expected at least 200 patrons on Thursday.

Clamping down on Hamas' smuggling was a key Israel demand to end its offensive. It says it got guarantees from Egypt, and pledges from the U.S. and Europe, to help prevent Hamas from rearming.

"Israel had no illusions whatsoever that the Hamas would voluntarily be giving up on the tunneling," said Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev. "We do believe, however, that the new situation that has been created will prevent Hamas from successfully replenishing its stores of Iranian missiles," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

OK.


So when the Saudis allow Jews and Christians into Mecca, Israel will allow Moslims into Jeruselam.


Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY allows Moslims and Christians into Jeruselam.


And when Jordan allows Jews to settle there, Israel should allow Moslims to settle in Israel.



Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY allows Moslims to settle in Israel.


And when the Arab nations settle the 640,000 Moslims who fled Israel ( instead of staying as invited) Israel will settle the 820,000 Jews that were forced out of the Arab nations.


Oh, I forgot- Israel ALREADY settled the Jews from the Arab nations.



Waiting on the Arab nations now, it seems.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

and give all of the people living within its borders the same exact rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

That would indeed be a very reasonable demand for Israel to put on the table at any negotiations, and one which it would be very much in the interests of Arab nations to accept.

Similarly a reciprocal right of return for Jews exiled from other Middle Eastern and Near Eastern countries, and Palestinians exiled from Israel, would cut the ground from under extremists on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

For one thing, because unlike Israel, our tax dollars aren't the means those governments are using in order to deny equal rights to their citizens. The fact that it is our money that makes that discrimination possible in Israel gives us the responsibility to pressure Israel to change how it treats the people who are under its control.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

CarolC,

To be fair, why don't we insist that Israel give all those living within Israel the SAME rights as that group gives the Jews in the other Arab nations??


Since Jews are not allowed in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc, that would solve the problem to everyone's satisfaction. ( Unless you feel that Israel should have imposed on it rules that other nations do not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Can't find the Italian source...


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3660423,00.html


But I would not expect the BBC to report this, anyway- they have a vested interest in the higher numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

He's right in that it's not feasible for Israel to continue to exist as a "Jewish state". Israel's definition of "Jewish state" requires that Israel have a permanent Jewish majority. Ethnic cleansing is required for Israel to have a Jewish majority in the area that it now controls (including the parts that are currently under military occupation), and it requires ethnic cleansing to be able to maintain a Jewish majority in the part that is not under military occupation. A state that requires ongoing ethnic cleansing in order to exist is not sustainable in the long run.

It's time for Israel to go the way of South Africa, and complete the annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give all of the people living within its borders the same exact rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Nickhere-


Iran's Ahmadinejad: 'Not Feasible' for Israel to Exist
Thursday, January 15, 2009


File: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
CAIRO, Egypt — A top Israeli envoy delivered his country's stance on a cease-fire agreement in Gaza to Egyptian mediators trying to seal a truce on Thursday. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad president said the fighting showed Israel's continued existence in the region is "not feasible."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

"If I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations" - Ehud Barak, in an interview in 1998.

That's a quote which should be pondered by people who try to paint Hamas and Al Fatah as somehow intrinsically different from the IDF. Or Irgun. Or the Stern Gang.

"...a nation acts like a nation and most definitely is not nice..." And so do people engaged infighting against that nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Joe:

Regarding your e-missive of 21 Jan 6:54 PM I hope you make it to Israel and have a good and safe trip. I've never been. I've met lots of Israelis over a long period of time, and I guess I'd mention a few things:

1) There was a period a few years back when an Israeli and a Palestinian in town (Anchorage) went into business together. It was a matter of more in common in a strange community. I don't know where it went, if it was succesful or not, but such things happen.

2) I met an American woman who'd moved to Israel, then divorced and moved back with her kids. She claimed she and many like her had gone out of her way to establish connections with Arab-Israelis, only to be spurned during one of the earlier Intifadas. She felt, rightly or wrongly, as if she'd been slapped in the face.

3) I am not disagreeing that you may have met a lot of Israelis with a 'racist' attitude, but did you meet Palestinians who were qualitatively different?

Having said that, I've also heard that there ARE racist attitudes in Israel, from one Jewish group to another.

As for your earlier e-missive, 21 January 3:36, I have been very impressed over the course of my life, that the US has taken on the issue of the Holocaust as it has. I think Americans, as our freshly sworn President has said, are a patchwork, and come from so many varied backgrounds with an assumed history of experiencing or fleeing persecution, that there is an almost instinctive reaction to line up with the perceived underdog. I know that's one of my reactions. As for the Holocaust being 'holy' (as in reaction to it, how we treat it) I share that sense, but it doesn't mean to me that it be left unexamined. Also, other American, if not human traits, are to be ignorant and to use whatever social tools may be handy to gain an advantage. By that I mean that humans are competitive, humans seek advantages, and that may mean going 'beyond the pale' in trying to get better jobs, better notice, a leg up on a suitor, anything. Some people will say things or imply things that we may find ghastly. We are all vulnerable to something, and we may all be callous as well. I had a boss who very perceptively said at a company meeting: "It is human nature to root out weakness." I had another boss who very nearly implied that one of my problems with a co-worker was that we were 'too alike'. The ONLY thing that was alike was our religion.

So not everyone who references Jews as Nazis may be believing their own words, though I agree it's a hell of an anti-semitic thing to say. They could also be powerfully or willfully ignorant, or they could be seeking an advantage and using words as a cudgel to win their point.

As to your dissatisfaction with Israeli governmental actions/ policies, I think you may be responding to current events disproportionately. I remember someone commenting on Israel versus the perception of Jews in America that: "Being stateless, Jews had a kind of freedom from responsibility, but, with a Jewish State in the world, Jews are now experiencing the kind of criticism that comes with a State taking actions to preserve itself". I'm not saying that all those actions are correct or should be perceived as 'nice'. I'm just saying that a nation acts like a nation and most definitely is not nice. Jews in America are learning that there's always going to be criticism of Israel, and some of it may be justified. It goes, double meaning intended, with the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Extraordinary! When you navigate to that site from here, you see..... no video.

If you open it from another window..... you see a video!

Bloody gremlins!

here's the link, cut n' paste in your address bar:

http://www.russiatoday.com/guests/detail/2031

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM

Finkelstein on Gaza, interview on RT

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Thanks for the reply to my other post BB, I see some people did indeed comment negatively on the right to exist. Forgive my pedantry, but I still wonder what it actually means though. I wonder what 'not having a right to exist' would mean. Would it mean rubbing the lines off the map and / or redrawing them; Would it mean renaming a state; or would it mean killing everyone and physically destroying the state? The last sounds pretty horrible, and I'm not sure I like the first either unless there are absolutely sound sterling reasons for it. The second seems fairly pointless unless it achieves some greater good for all involved.

In Iraq's case it didn't mean rubbing the lines out - Iraq's borders are still there much as they were almost 100 years ago. But the regime has changed. Once it was a Baathist dictatorship, now it's a US muppet. Lots of Iraqis did die there too, and their country was destroyed. On the other hand Montenegro was literally 'wiped off the map' after WW1 though no one was even injured as a result. It simply disappeared off maps as it was absorbed into a makey-uppy state called Yugoslavia. 90 years later it popped up again like one of those Billy Divers or Tufted Ducks.

Just some philosophical musings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Ok, I've just tried looking for the article on Ynet and it appears I'll have to brush up on my Chinese as well as the whole page has loaded in said language. I'm not sure what I've done wrong but I daren't click on anything on that page in case I accidentally download the latest version of RAMf***er v.3 by mistake. Sorry to be a bother, but you wouldn't be able to make a blue clicky to the original article page, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

Thanks BB, I'll have a look on Ynet and see if I can find it. It'll be a chance for me to practise my Italian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

McGrath,

OK, I will admit I hate Hamas- for their stated intention to destroy Israel, and their repeated attacks on the civlian populations, not to mention their war crimes against the Gazan people.

I do not hate Palestinians: Those I know are decent people, and I feel that Abbas has shown that he is more intersted in peace than in causing death and destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

Teribus, you speak of Hamas as a kind of ticking time bomb that will go off again soon, and I'd have to concur with you that in all probability that we haven't seen the end of it or the rockets.

But if we want to see the end of this 'phenomena' don't you think it's both reasonable and necessary to ask why Hamas manages to keep going on, keep getting new recruits and so on despite everything that's been thrown at it and Gazans in general? Iran may - or may not - be sending weapons but in any case there still needs to be willing hands to fire them at the other end.

Don't you think that it's time the root causes of such seething hatred are tackled - and it exists on both sides. No humans could do that to each other unless they were either brain dead or willing to see the other side as something less equally human.

If you want to disarm Hamas the best way is to convince the Palestinians that you're on their side, that you can and will help them rebuild their shattered lives. Convince them you're not their enemy and not out to destroy them. As you yourself say, most Israelis are highly suspicious and fearful of Hamas thanks to Hamas' well-publicised comments about Israel.

But what kind of message do you think Israelis are sending to Palestinians when they drive them out of their farms and houses and plant their own people therte instead, when they shoot rock-throwing children dead? When they allow Israeli colonists go around armed and harassing palestinians, shooting them dead occasionally? Don't you think that Gazans have relatives and friends living in the West Bank or do you think the two regions contain totally alien populations to each other? What message does it send when you drop white phosphorous, bombs etc., etc., etc., on the places where they live? Whether or not the intention was simply to kill Hamas militants (and I'm sorry to say but I simply don't believe that, it was way too gratuitous and over-the-top) what difference does that make to the people who can't escape this hell or get out of harm's way, or who are told to take safety in one building by the same people that send a bomb or missile moments later. To say the least, even assuming all this stuff about phone calls and texts is true, don't you think it kind of sends a very mixed message?


Anyone who seriously wants the people in that region to manage to get along without wiping EACH OTHER out will have to realise sooner or later that what we've seen over the last few weeks is not going to work. I think I already asked this, but what have Hamas rockets achieved? Have they brought peace and security to the region or just more hatred, fear and resentment? What makes you think Israel's bombs and missiles will bring happier times?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

Nickhere,

It was on Ynet. I posted almost all of it- including the caveats and the IDF numbers.


As for your comment

"I don't think anyone (and Lord help me if I'm wrong, rolling my eyes) here has suggested Israel should be 'destroyed' or the people who live there slaughtered, which seems to be what you're suggesting with your 'right to exist' phrase. "

I do not accuse YOU- But I do point out that those who ARE stating it made no comment about the other situations that you have mentioned- ONLY Israel does not have the right they allow Russia, et al.

I use the term that others here have used:

Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

Both sides will cut there noses off to spite their faces, then the world can look & laugh at how ugly both are. You may disagree & stand for one side or the other & make excuses for both till the cows come home but if the outside world does not demand an end neither deserves to exist.


From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...
Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...


Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...



From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:32 PM

....
..."How's that workin' for ya, Bubba???"

Well, it ain't and that's why I have finally figured out that Israel just might not ahve a ***right*** to exist... Rights are earned, not stolen...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM

There's a lot of hate here directed at people on the other side of he world.

This is an appalling tragedy. It's never going to be solved by hating other people. Horrible things have been done by people on both sides in thgis conflict, most of the time by people who are probably decent enough human beings feeling they have no alternative, and justified by other people who are decent enough.

The people on the two sides in this conflict are very similar, and they have very similar motivations. It's a long drawn out civil war and they are the cruellest of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

That looks very interesting BB! Any link to the article?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

After reading Irwin Cotler's article, above...I thought I'd best take my words out of the Taleban thread, where I put them yesterday, and put them where they belong, (with the Taleban references removed.) Prof. Cotler puts it far more eloquently, but somehow I think we'd agree on all those points he's raised. Thank you C. Ham for posting it. (with apologies for my incorrect spelling of Hamas)





>>>Hammas have chosen, deliberately to store their weapons, and to hide out, amongst their people.   What bloody cowards!

Yasser Arafat grinned his way through life, recruiting suicide bombers, and sipping supper in The White House.

Hundreds, probably thousands of Israelis have been killed during this war. They've been killed on buses just going to work, or when walking down the streets, when the cars blew up, or those who have packed themselves with bombs decided to blow themselves and everyone around them to smithereens.

You cannot reason with brain washed terrorists.   You also have to protect your own people. I may not agree with what is happening out there, but by heavens I can see why Israel has finally flipped and had enough!

Where are the leaders of Hammas when Israel targets the houses where they KNOW that weapons are being held? Are they out there apologising on their knees to their people, for being such snivelling, evil men, putting their weapons amongst their people? No, they're too damned busy deciding whose house they'll hide them in next!!! And you know why?

Because they KNOW that Israel will *have* to target those places where the weapons are held, to protect their own...and they also know that it will cause maximum horror amongst their own people and out here in the bigger world...And THAT is why they do it! Because they're inhuman b*stards who don't give a damn about anyone.

If you are honourable, then when battle occurs, you do ALL YOU CAN to ensure your own people are protected, you do NOT bloody well fill their houses with explosives, knowing the enemy will blast them to kingdom come, unless you are the most evil and emotionally empty killing machine there has ever been.

These people are murderers! They are low down unfeeling, uncaring scum...and they should be treated accordingly. They are war criminals, sick minded bigots who DARE to use their religion as an excuse for inhuman behaviour.

The Palestinian people themselves need to turn against Hammas and realise what their elected leaders are doing to them in the name of power. The Israelis need to stop, pull out and try to find another way, but I doubt there is another way, because leaders who are so willing to have their own people blown up, are not going to suddenly become the Israeli's friends...

And I hope that Yasser Arafat has finally had his murderer's smile wiped off his face, wherever his soul may now be, IF he ever had a soul, that is.<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

Barry,

You are way off base in your perception of what is, and has been happening, in Gaza, Israel and in the West Bank because you have only looked at it from one side and challenged little or nothing of the information that you have been given in support of your own point of view.

A cursory investigation of events and timelines clearly demonstrates that border crossings are closed in response to rocket and mortar attacks Barry not the other way about as you state in your post.

Where is it stated that the Israeli Government want the Arabs of Palestine to leave Gaza, or the West Bank for that matter? Or is that just an invention of your own Barry?? If so, all the evidence seems to be against it, Israel having withdrawn from Gaza completely in September 2005 and leaving the area to the Palestinians under their own governance. Can you also explain why when the Israelis withdrew from Gaza the Arab Bedouin population of Gaza opted to leave and go to Israel rather than remain in Gaza??

So you believe that "attempted extermination" is being practiced by the Israeli's. OK so let's challenge that belief Barry:

•        Has the Arab population in Gaza, Israel and the West bank grown since 1948?? How does that compare to the growth in the Jewish population of Israel?? The answers to those questions in turn Barry are as follows – The Arab populations have grown steadily and consistantly – The increase in the Jewish population is roughly the same as that of the Arab population but if anything slightly less. Not a very good indicator of a determined programme on the part of the Israelis at "attempted extermination" of Palestinian Arabs.

•        If as you contend Barry that the Israelis are attempting the extermination of the Palestinians, why did they not pursue this attempted extermination when they (The Israelis) had full control of Gaza and the West Bank between 1967 and 1994?? Why wait until now??

•        On 12th September, 2005 the Israeli cabinet formally declared an end to Israeli military rule in the Gaza Strip. To avoid any allegation that it was still in occupation of any part of the Gaza Strip, Israel also withdrew from the Philadelphi Route, which is a narrow strip adjacent to the Strip's border with Egypt, after Egypt's agreement to secure its side of the border. Under the Oslo Accords the Philadelphi Route was to remain under Israeli control to prevent the smuggling of materials (such as ammunition) and people across the border with Egypt. With Egypt agreeing to patrol its side of the border, it was hoped that the objective would be achieved. We now know of course that no control was maintained, the border between Egypt and Gaza remains the principal route for the smuggling of arms, explosives and rockets into Gaza.

•        The PA rule of the Gaza Strip and West Bank under leadership of Arafat suffered from serious mismanagement and corruption. Exorbitant bribes were demanded for allowing goods to pass in and out of the Gaza Strip. These bribes are still paid today to Hamas who control what passes through the tunnels from Egypt – It's their main source of income. So it is not simply down to the Israelis "blockading" Gaza, never was, and humanitarian supplies have always been allowed through Israeli check points.

•        Explain the difference between the Israeli approach to the West Bank and to Gaza if there is a concerted attempt at extermination of the Palestinians on the part of the Israelis? The main difference that I can see is that the PA and Fatah in the West Bank have made it known that they are prepared to negotiate towards a permanent peace, whereas Hamas in Gaza are only prepared to negotiate temporary cease-fires and still hold to the declared goals of their Charter – the destruction of Israel and her people.

•        Over the past four weeks Barry how many "Palestinians" were killed in the West Bank or in Southern Lebanon?? None wasn't it Barry, now I wonder why not if as you say this campaign of "attempted extermination" is in place.

•        Gaza has a population of approximately 1.4 million. After a three week campaign of "attempted extermination" as you put it the casualty figures as reported stand at 0.09% of the population killed and 0.36% of the population injured. Are the IDF and the Israeli Authorities really that inefficient when it comes to "exterminating" people Barry?? Figures were so low Barry because the Israeli response to over seven years of constant bombardment was measured, by and large careful, and proportional. Reporters allowed into Gaza have remarked on the precision of IDF strikes.

•        Ruination of homes – 4000 homes destroyed. How many of those did Hamas choose to fight over Barry?? How many of those were booby-trapped Barry?? Even with those factors ignored considering a population as large as that of Gaza the number of properties destroyed seems slight. Collateral damage has left 50,000 homeless, which is 3.56% of the total population – Hardly the ruination of a people Barry, particularly considering that nobody would have died, nobody would have had their homes destroyed, nobody would have been rendered homeless, if no-one had attacked Israel from inside the Gaza Strip in the first place. If you doubt that Barry I'll ask you again - Over the past four weeks, how many "Palestinians" were killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank or in Southern Lebanon? How many attacks were mounted on Israel from inside the West Bank or from Southern Lebanon? Answer NONE.

We will now see what Hamas in Gaza will do:

•        Rebuild Gaza and its civil infrastructure

•        Rearm

I believe that they are already on record stating the latter as their priority. As reported by CNN this morning there are signs that the people of Gaza are coming to the realisation that it has been solely the activities of Hamas that has caused their suffering – Hopefully that will be evident in the results of the next election, if Hamas decide to hold any.

This next part of your post is utterly ridiculous:

"Those who weren't killed will in many cases die from a lack of resources, medical attention, injuries that have gone untreated, disease that will follow the unsanitary conditions that come with the destruction of Gaza."

Here you are trying to tell us that a large proportion on the 1.4 million people living in Gaza are about to die in the aftermath of an armed three week incursion by the IDF in which 1300 people died. Your argument doesn't really stand up does it??

This is another instance where you defy logic, rationality and the truth:

"It's not war when a civilian population is under blockade, lockdown, restriction of goods, food & medical supplies & then is attacked by another nations military might & with the force that's uncalled for."

Why is the civilian population under blockade and "lockdown", Barry? – Because their elected representatives have chosen to launch attacks against civilian centres of population in Israel from inside Gaza. Casualties have been slight, no thanks to Hamas, because the Israeli authorities have set up an early warning system and built shelters for their citizens. These attacks have been a constant feature of life for the civilian population of southern Israel now for seven years, one third of schoolchildren of Sderot are suffering from PTSD.

OK Baz what would you have done in response to these attacks??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could rearm unhindered??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could increase its chances of slipping a suicide bomber through into Israel??

- Kept all the crossings open so that Hamas could get a car bomb through into Israel??

- Kept all the crossings open so that you present Hamas with greater opportunity to abduct and kidnap more of your citizens??

Or do you deny that any of that has taken place over the last twenty years?? I'd be interested in hearing your answer, but I don't think I'll get one that involves any original thought. Especially from someone who believes that fighting in self-defence in response to attacks on ones civilian population is "unjust" if it is practiced by Israelis but perfectly acceptable and laudable if practiced by Arabs.

IF "subjugation" and "annihilation" of the Palestinian people were the goals of the Israelis Barry, then that would have been accomplished a long, long time ago. The truth is of course that that has never EVER been the aim of the Israelis, but precisely those aims are clearly detailed in the Charter of Hamas.

Unfortunately I have to agree with John In Kansas, the cease-fire will hold until Hamas once again thinks that it has built up enough strength to attack again, resupplied by Iran. I take it Barry that you do not doubt for one second that Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon are backed, financed and supplied by Iran??

When this comes and if this runs down the same track as before, once again Hamas will hide amongst the civilian population of Gaza and it will be they who'll bear the brunt and pay the price for absolutely no gain. But, you never know the next time they might have acquired some of that "Plague" weaponry that Al-Qaeda were experimenting with in Algeria, or maybe by that time Iran will have manufactured enough enriched uranium to supply Hamas with something with a bit more bang for their bucks. Perhaps that is what many on this forum would like to see for Israel, but when faced with such potential threats, made more likely by events elsewhere, "proportionality" in response goes out the window and risk assessment and survival become all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

more...


Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, who is in change of the emergency department at the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, denied the figures presented by the Italian paper.

Hassanain told Ynet that the Palestinian figures were issued cautiously, without any political considerations, and that several casualties may not have been reported as their bodies are still under the rubble or have not been handed over to the rescue forces and authorized medical officials.

'Mostly armed teenagers'
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"

These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

These new figures must be treated with caution especially in light of the fact that various official sources in the Gaza Strip, including United Nations and Red Cross officials, have reported that more than 1,300 people were killed and some 5,000 wounded during the three weeks of fighting in the coastal strip. Palestinian sources claim that three-quarters of the dead were unarmed civilians.

Hamas, while boasting on having Israeli soldiers by the dozens, a number that has proven to be exaggerated, claimed that no more than 48 of its members were killed during the Israeli offensive. According to IDF figures, Hamas lost hundreds of fighters from its ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Gazan doctor says death toll inflated


Physician at Gaza's Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive 'stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas' ranks'. Senior Palestinian Health Ministry official denies claims, IDF estimate on 1,200 casualties in Strip remains unchanged

What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead.

"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.

The doctor wished to remain unidentified, out of fear for his life.

A senior Palestinian Health Ministry official later denied the claims, and the Israel Defense Forces' estimate on the number of casualties in Gaza has also remained unchanged.

Despite the claims, the IDF stood behind its estimate that between 1,100 to 1,200 people were killed in the Strip during the fighting, more than two-thirds of them Hamas members.

The army initially believed that the number of civilian casualties was higher, as many Hamas men walked outside their houses dressed in civilian clothes, leaving their weapons at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

The following is an op-ed from today's National Post by the Honourable Irwin Cotler, law professor, noted human rights activist, former Minister of Justice of Canada, Member of Parliament (Mount Royal).

***
Beyond the fog of war

Asking yourself these 13 questions about the Israel-Hamas conflict might actually help resolve it

The Israeli-Hamas conflict, with its evocative images of human suffering, has engaged the hearts and minds of people the world over. Indeed, the death of any innocent — Israeli or Palestinian — is a tragedy, and no one can fail to be moved by the human suffering and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

But the immediate cessation of violence that was declared over the weekend — and that has so far held — may not endure. If we want to prevent further tragedies, it is important to go beyond the "fog of war" — to go behind the daily headlines that cloud understanding and the cliches (the "cycle of violence") that corrupt it — and ask some fundamental questions about the root causes of this war and the basis for its resolution.

1 Do you agree that Israel, like any other state, has the right to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force?

2 Are you aware that Hamas has launched over 8,000 missiles, rockets and mortars from behind civilian areas, deliberately targeting and terrorizing the Israeli civilian population these last three years, constituting an armed attack prohibited by the UN Charter? Are you aware that despite a six-month truce, Hamas launched close to 3,000 armed attacks in 2008 alone?

3 Do you agree that Israel — like any other state — has an obligation to protect its citizens, and a right to selfdefence against armed attack as set forth in Article 51 of the UN Charter?

As then-U.S. secretary of state Condoleezza Rice put it to the UN Security Council, echoing the words of both U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel: "The situation before the current events in Gaza was clearly not sustainable. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis lived under the daily threat of rocket attack, and frankly, no country, none of our countries, would have been willing to tolerate such a circumstance."

4 Do you agree that Israel's exercise of self-defence must comport with the principles of international humanitarian law, including the principle of proportionality and the prohibition against the infliction of unnecessary suffering?

5 Do you agree that Palestinians in Gaza have the same right as Israelis to live in peace and security? Are you aware of the domestic repression by Hamas of Palestinian rights in Gaza, including converting the civilian infrastructure to a weapons depot and exploiting the civilian population as human shields, as is now being observed even in the Arab press?

6 Do you agree that the ceasefire must be durable and sustaining to protect the peace and security of both Israelis and Palestinians?

If so, then let us look deeper at what this conflict is truly about.

7 Are you aware that the border crossings — between Egypt and Gaza, and between Gaza and Israel — have been used to smuggle terrorists, weapons, munitions and contraband, when they should be open instead for the movement of people and trade, as set forth in the 2005 Israeli-Palestinian Agreement on Movement and Access?

8 Are you aware that Hamas is designated a terrorist entity by Canada, the United States and the European Union, and that UN Security Council resolutions require Palestinian governing authorities to deny safe havens to terrorists?

9 Are you aware that the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they might be?

10 Are you aware that this genocidal ideology is shared not only by Hamas but also by Iran and its proxy immediately north of Israel, Hezbollah. Did you know that Iran is training, financing, supplying and instigating terrorist action by Hamas and Hezbollah to carry out this existential threat to Israel?

11 Are you aware that Hamas — not only during the present hostilities, but before them, too — has propagated a state-sanctioned culture of hate, in the mosques, in the schools, in the broadcasting system and in the summer camps and training camps, which teaches that Jews are inherently evil, a cancer, responsible for all the evils of the world, the sons of apes and pigs and the defilers of Islam?

12 Do you agree that such statements promote hatred and contempt for Jews, and constitute an obstacle to peace?
The next generation of Palestinians must be one that is capable of keeping the peace with Israel. It is in the interests of neither Israelis nor Palestinians themselves to perpetuate this false "conflict of civilizations" — and yet perpetual conflict is exactly what Hamas, by its own acknowledgment, wants, until Israel's demise.
So then, a final question:

13 Do you agree that a comprehensive and enduring ceasefire must include: the reaffirmation — as a bottom-line commitment, as President Obama has put it — of Israel's right to live in peace; the cessation of all acts of terror and violence against Israeli civilians, the casus belli of these hostilities; the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza; the establishment of an international protection and stabilization force to enforce the ceasefire and protect against smuggling and the manufacture of weapons; the deployment of a massive humanitarian undertaking to ensure assistance reaches those in need; the opening of border crossings; the initiation of a comprehensive program for the reconstruction of Gaza and the rehabilitation of its citizens; and the freeing of Palestinian society from the cynical and oppressive culture of hate and incitement fuelled by Hamas?

I close on a personal note. I write not only as a law professor and MP, but as one who has family in Israel and friends in Palestine, and who has lived and worked in the region and been engaged in the struggle for peace for more than 35 years.

The overriding truth of these past 35 years for me has always been clear and remains the same. I will stand with those who support the right of peoples in the Middle East — Israelis and Palestinians alike — to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force, a cornerstone of UN principle and Canadian foreign policy; and I will oppose all those, like Hamas and its patron Iran, who seek the destruction of any people or state in violation of the UN Charter and all civilized norms.

Irwin Cotler is professor of law (on leave) at McGill University, the Opposition Critic for Human Rights and the MP for Mount Royal. He has written extensively on the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:48 AM

My apologies to PDQ and some others. I know you did. Heat of the moment is no excuse. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:46 AM

"In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 PM

I was hoping to go to Israel in March, but the trip got cancelled - a combination of the current political situation in Israel and the economic situation in the U.S. made it so we didn't have enought people for the tour.

When I was in Israel in 1999, I was disturbed by the attitudes Israelis had about Palestinians, very similar to the racist attitudes white people had about Blacks when I was growing up in Detroit and Milwaukee. The Israelis I met were nice, decent people - but almost all of them had distressing, racist things to say about Palestinians. What I heard Israelis say about Palestinians, was almost a carbon copy of what I heard from nice white people about Blacks as a kid.

Racism is never right. The "other side" may have its faults, but the reason for those faults is never race or ethnic origin. We need to learn to never use racism as a weapon, to address issues, not race. Even if the "other side" is racist, that does not justify our own racism.

The memory of those who died in the Holocaust is sacred, and we need to always respect their sacred memory. They were innocent victoms of a horrible act. I suppose that's the worst part of warfare, especially modern warfare. Instead of attacking an opponent directly, too often the victims of war are the innocent ones. I suppose that's why rape is one of the most horrible outrages of war - the victim is almost always totally innocent and helpless. When a soldier kills another soldier, there is some justification, I suppose - but when warfare involves rape and destruction of homes and desecration of what people hold sacret, it is an outrage.

In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible.

What will it take to bring lasting peace to Palestine? Is there any hope?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

re my Crips and Bloods analogy--
Bobert-
Are you saying that , in a gang situation, the little old ladies in the garden club who are attacking the other gang, however ineffectually, should get our sympathy and support? Look, massive retaliation, whether one likes it or not, is a time-honored tactic.

The only way to stop it is to have a stronger force policing both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Once again I make the point that, so far as I can, see there is nobody posting on the Mudcat who thinks that Hamas firing those rockets has been the right thing to do. If there were, there would be every reason for those who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. That would include me.

On the other hand there are a number of people people who do think that Israel's attacks on Gaza, and its imposition of a brutal blockade, have been the right thing to do.   And that means that there is every reason people who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. And that includes me as well.

In both cases I believe that the violence and brutality not merely causes death and suffering to innocent people on the other side, it also endangers people on the same side, and entrenches the conflict. All it produces is more dead and maimed people and devastated lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

Joe your post was very thoughtful for the most part, but you damn Israel with faint praise when you write, "But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust."

There is no systematic extermination on any scale! Israel has attacked smuggling tunnels, and places whence rocket attacks emanated. There have been a couple of questionable targets, but those may yet have been places that Hamas was using, too.

Frankly, I think Israel left too soon. Hamas is already rebuilding and using tunnels to re-supply. This kabuki theater will encore in 12-18 months when the Israeli government tires of having rockets fired at Israeli cities. But by then Hamas will be better armed and able to inflict more 'equitable' damage on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

OK, while some a backpeddling here I'll admit thamaybe I was a bit to harsh by my comparsions to Hilter & the Nazi machine. But I was not to far off base.
I do not support the rocket fire from Hams & never did thought I can understand & if I had grown up in Gaza under the foot of the Israeli's I most likely would be firing rockets myself unless they'd had opened up a border so I could take my family & leave, which is what the govenment of Israel wants.

HJoe, I do believe it is "attempted extermination" that is being practiced by the Isralei's. How else can one explain the ruinaton of a people, thier homes, thier infrastructure, leaving them without medical facilities, supplies or treatment (against international law & the Geneva Conventions), access to clean & drinkable water & food. The destrruction of homes & shelter from the carnage. Those who weren't killed will in many cases die from a lack of resources, medical attention, injuries that have gone untreated, disease that will follow the unsanitary conditions that come with the destruction of Gaza. What do you call it, war. It's not war when a civilion population is under blockade, lockdown, restriction of goods, food & medical supplies & then is attacked by another nations military might & with the force that's uncalled for. Neither can you call it "Tit for Tat" nor pay back. It's clearly not revenge. It's the subjugation of a people for the complete control & if subjugation doesn't work annilhilation is what follows as we have seen. Is that not the same as attempting extermination?

C.Ham, Thanks for the family history & background. My father was decorated in WWII, his family was driven out of Eastern Europe. As A Jew my father who has no living relitaves left living in Europe, so neither do I, he opposed Israel's subugation of all the peoples of the Occupied Terrorities, so do I. So, I don't care where you're from or who you are, if you support what Israel has just done to Gaza you are a supporter of a government that supports & wages extermination on a weaker people & for the uunjust reasons that it is only protecting itself. Well, when you keep taking the food off my table, you prevent me form earning a living, deprive me of my basic human needs & requirements for a sustainable live you'll have to excuse me while I break you neck & try to get on with the process of living.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

I've said my bit about the evils of Hamas in the wrong thread, the 'Taleban blowing up schools' thread...

So I'll say this, instead, and it will hopefully bring some warmth hope and light to this thread...

The other day, I wrote to a young woman I have spoken to a few times in Myspace, Aliza Hava. Aliza is Jewish, lives in the USA but is often out in Israel, joining with her musician friends out there, both Israeli and Palestinian, working to help bring about peace.
I just wanted to let her know that I was thinking about her, and her friends. Here is her reply, with her link put in below:

"Thank you, Lizzie, for your message.

I am in Israel right now, working with Palestinians and Israelis who want peace. This week I will be going to the West Bank to play with Arab and Jewish musicians and performing in a concert to raise money for an indigenous rights organization here in the Holy Land. Please let your friends know that there is hope, that there are many people on the ground working for change. In fact, there is a huge humanitarian aid drive being run now by Israelis to send blankets and food to people in Gaza. There is an article about it here: http://www. jpost. com/servlet/Satellite?cid=12 32292897793&pagename=JPost%2FJPArt.

Your email is so deeply appreciated.

Bless you and thank you again for your encouragement and prayers.

All the best,
Aliza"

Aliza's link from above - Israelis helping Palestinians

Aliza Hava Myspace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Some of us also haven't expressed an opinion about Israel's most recent attack on Gaza, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"...continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that."

Actually, there are several of us who have made that point over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

I agree that one shouldn't hold all Jews responsible for what the government of Israel is and has been doing. The world is deeply indebted to the many thousands (possibly millions) of Jews worldwide who are working very hard to try to stop these things from being done, some of them even making the ultimate sacrifice in service to this end.

On the subject of desecrating the memory of the Holocaust, however, there are Holocaust survivors, and descendents of Holocaust survivors, who feel that it is the government of Israel that is desecrating the memory of the Holocaust by using it as moral cover for what they are doing. The video posted above from Sir Gerald Kaufman, reposted here, provides an example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

Thanks Joe.

And Peace, as per usual, you are 100% correct in what you say.

Speaking as a Jew who believes in Israel, I do not agree with much of what Israel has done historically and recently.

Speaking as a Canadian, I do not agree with much of what Canada has done historically (or recently in denying freedom of expression to English-speakers in Quebec, the province I gew up in).

I know there are many Americans who do not agree with what their country has done in many places over many years. The numbers of innocent Iraqis killed by the Americans in the past few years completely dwarfs the numbers of innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis over its entire history. Which is not to excuse the killing of any innocent people. And let us not forget that it is only innocent civilians, and not military targets, that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups target.

And let us not forget that yesterday Barack Obama, an African American, moved into a house that was built by the slave labor of African Americans. I am old enough to remember when African Americans were legally segregated and denied voting rights in many parts of the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

And where was YOUR protest when Hamas was attacking Israel daily?