BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:45 PM

LOL.....:0)...Goodnight Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM

"Israel Moves in."

          I thought they were talking about the US Senate!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

Yes Bobert I fully agree with what you have written, when read in conjuntion with McGrath's post.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

"Right to the exist" has a special meaning in this context. It means a right to ensure that a particular country will always be controlled by a particular religious/ethnic community.

Now where else has an analogous "right to exist" been asserted as overriding the rights of other people belonging to a country or state?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

Ya' know, Ake, if you asked me a month ago if I thought that Israel had a "right to exist" I'd have said, "Sure"...

With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush adminstartion's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking...

Israel has become that neigbor who moves into a new neighborhood and goes out of its way to piss everyone off...

Sorry, but I no longer believe that this Israel has earned the right to exist...

I am terribly sorry to my many Jewish friends but this is where I find myself...

And its a sad place to be... Very sad...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

"...big world powers get together and fix this..."

Just how can the US governnment or the Russian government, or any other superpower stop a few dozen fanatics from launching 10 or 12 missiles per day into Israel. Answer: they can't.

Either the Arabs of Gaza have to do it themselves or the instigators in Iran and Syrian must want it to stop,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:29 PM

What does it fucking matter!!
The Americans did the same to the South Vietnamese
All that matters is that the big world powers get together and fix this....and it can only be fixed if America wants it fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

"The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus."

"We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians."

Yes, the Arabs of Gaza are acting as agents of Iran and Syria.

Those two countries will "fight to the very last man" as long as that man is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Another thing that disturbs me about this conflict is the clinical way that death is delivered by the Israelis.
By clinical, I don't mean precise, the numbers dead children attest to that!
Clinical in the sense that death is quite meaningless to those who deliver it......a detached operation, lacking the sight and smell of burning hair, flesh and blood.
The people who operate the Predator drones might just as well be at work in a bank or supermarket, they just press the button and a half dozen people just disappear!
Maybe they have a cup of coffee in their hands or have a quick browse through the morning paper between shots.
I watch a video to day, taken in Gaza, of the clinical extermination of several cars and their occupants by predator drone.

Who do these fucking people think they are? How do they know for sure who is in the car?....and do they care?

These people are systematically murdering an elected govt...and with them, hundreds of the Gaza electorate, not including the hundreds too young to vote and many too young to walk!!

I suppose most of you will have seen the film "Saving Pt Ryan"

To me the scene which filled me with most horror was not the blood on the beaches, but the knife fight between the German and the American soldier in the burned out house. As the German began to prevail and the knife entered the Americans stomach....ever so slowly.....The German spoke softly to his adversary to calm him as the knife slid slowly towards his heart....this was realism in cinema, and the viewer of the scene was aware that no matter who had come out alive they would never be the same person again,

Death in war, if we are mad enough to wage war, should have that effect, a shattering numbing experience that will never leave the minds of any who have participated in it.....not a clinical video game, the murderous results of which can be viewed over coffee.

We see the burning and broken children, but the other senses are not involved....there should be a sense of hearing ....for the childish screams. A sense of smell for the roasted flesh...and above all else, a sense of shame, that we are too cowardly or apathetic to demand from our governments an end to this massacre.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

Honour indeed.

True heroism.

Thanks ifor


In all this talk of what constitutes courage, you have found a true example.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper,reported today that a young army reservist has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment after refusing to cross the border into Gaza with his unit.
He refused because of the large number of civilian casualties being inflicted by the Israeli military.
Honour to him
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

A good principle is not to give any credence to anything that any political spokesperson or official says. On either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

"Karam Jaber, editor of the semi-official Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssef magazine, said that Hamas was caught between the Syrian anvil and the Iranian hammer. The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus.

"History won't forget to mention that Hamas had inflicted death and destruction on the Palestinians," he said. "We hope that Hamas has learned the lesson and realizes that it has been fighting a war on behalf of others. We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians".

Egyptian political analyst Magdi Khalil said he shared the view of the Palestinian Authority and Egypt that Hamas was responsible for the war in the Gaza Strip. "Ever since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, they turned the area into hell," he said. "They imposed restrictions on the people there and even prevented them from performing the pilgrimage to Mecca".

The analyst said that the head of the Egyptian General Intelligence Service was right when he recently described Hamas as a group of gangsters. "Hamas and its masters in Damascus and Teheran want to spread chaos in Egypt," he said. "They want to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip by handing the area over to Egypt. They want to create a homeland for the Palestinians in Sinai".

He said that Hamas was not only jeopardizing Egypt's national security, but had also destroyed the Palestinians' dream of statehood. "By endorsing the Iranian agenda, Hamas has brought the Iranians to Egypt's eastern border," he said. "Hamas has also copied Hizbullah's policy of entering into pointless adventures". "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

Jan 12, 2009 12:20 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 21:44
Dichter: Hamas salaries paid at Shifa Hospital
By AMIR MIZROCH

Hamas uses Gaza's Shifa Hospital as a meeting place and even distributed salaries to their operatives there over the weekend, Public Security Minister and former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) head Avi Dichter said Monday morning.

Speaking on Army Radio, Dichter said, "On Saturday, January 10, which is the day salaries are distributed in Gaza, several Hamas commanders who cannot come out of their hiding places were given their salaries at their hiding places.

"But those commanders who can move around Gaza made their way to Shifa Hospital to receive their salaries."

Regarding Israeli intelligence reports that Hamas's leadership had taken refuge in the hospital, Dichter said, "Shifa Hospital has long ago ceased to be just a hospital, just as the UNRWA humanitarian and health services in Gaza long ago ceased to be just humanitarian services providing food and medical services."

"UN schools in Gaza long ago stopped being just schools," he added. "All these services and places are refuges for Hamas terrorists and commanders."

Asked why Israel was not acting against Shifa Hospital, Dichter answered that an attack on a hospital could not be carried out "for obvious reasons."

Prevention and treatment? Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin says some of the doctors in Gaza's hospitals could actually could be Hamas men in disguise.

"Shifa is in the middle of a very crowded area in Gaza, and you would have to get through half a million Gazans to get to the hospital and arrest Hamas people there. So that's not doable," he said.

Dichter pointed out that it was common knowledge in Gaza that Hamas held meetings in the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM

Jan 12, 2009 0:35 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 12:40
Iran warns Hamas not to accept truce
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Iran is exerting heavy pressure on Hamas not to accept the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel, an Egyptian government official said on Sunday.

The official told The Jerusalem Post by phone that two senior Iranian officials who visited Damascus recently warned Hamas leaders against accepting the proposal.

His remarks came as Hamas representatives met in Cairo with Egyptian Intelligence Chief Gen. Omar Suleiman and his aides to discuss ways of ending the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

The Hamas representatives reiterated their opposition to a cease-fire that did not include the reopening of all the border crossings into the Gaza Strip, Hamas spokesmen said on Sunday.

RELATED
Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas
The spokesmen said Hamas voiced its strong opposition to the idea of deploying an international force inside the Gaza Strip.

The Egyptian official said that the two Iranian emissaries, Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, and Said Jalili of the Iranian Intelligence Service, met in the Syrian capital with Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal and Islamic Jihad Secretary-General Ramadan Shallah.


"As soon as the Iranians heard about the Egyptian cease-fire initiative, they dispatched the two officials to Damascus on an urgent mission to warn the Palestinians against accepting it," the Egyptian government official told the Post.

"The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

greg f: "Fatuous?" Me? Sticks and stones ...etc. etc.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest Hugo
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

"Haaretz the Israeli newspaper " reported today that a young Israeli reservist refused to cross into Gaza with his unit because of the killing of Palestinian civilians.
He has been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment.
Honour to his name!
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

Israel also requested from the US more "Bunker Buster" bombs, they were denied, thank Christ (bad pun). But isn't the havoc that they're raining down on the Palestinian people more than enough already, why would they see the need to rain more hell on a civilian population unless it's terror that they want to shower on people. Israel will never find the rest it seeks unless it's "Rest In Peace".


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,guest ifor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

I think Robomatic is quite right to describe Israel as a "dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out".

It has been slaughtering Palestinian civilians for decades at countless half forgotten massacre sites from Deir Yassin to Qana ,from the Beirut refugee camps to Gaza.

In addition it has stolen Palestinian land,grubbed up Palestinian orchard groves and olive trees and corralled Palestinians into ever tighter parcels of land on the West Bank.

It has destroyed mosques and universities and imprisoned ,often without trial, large numbers of Palestinan men women and children.

The Israeli state has demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian houses with armoured bulldozers sometimes with the occupants either still inside or scrabbling to get out with their possessions. The Israeli military have gone on a ghastly,horrific killing spree in Gaza but for years they have been killing Palestinian with those rubber coated bullets.They have used assassination squads to shoot down "militants" and guided missiles to kill their enemies and a few other civilians at the same time.

Israel is a state that is illegally occupying land that is has no legal right to.It has settled on that land...the West Bank...armed paramilitary thugs and their families who were often born outside Israel.These armed thugs have terrorised and humiliated and attacked the Palestinians they live among with impunity.

Palestinians are kept waiting at checkpoints for considerable amounts of time..often hours .Sometimes they have no freedom of movement at all.Palestinian mothers to be have died at checkpoints waiting for medical treatment and scores of Palestinian patients were not allowed to leave Gaza even before the current slaughter .They died for want of an Israeli exit permit.

Israel is a terrorist state ,founded on the theft of an entire land from its Palestinian inhabitants.

Of course those Palestinians who fled to places like Gaza to escape the Israeli military have no right of return to their homeland under any proposal offered by Israel.

The Israeli military is slaughtering away right now but Gaza is a city of about a million and a half people.It has flattened great chunks of the city with its huge bombs and used white phospherous shells against the civilian population .There are reports emerging that the USA is chartering a vessel to move extra ammo and bombs from depots in Greece to Israel.How considerate of Washington!

But what happens when the Israelis get exhausted by the killing ,when those young men are tired of wading through the bood of babies and teenagers??

Gaza will still be there unless the Israelis plan to kill them all .And what sort of rights do the Israeli envisage Palestinians will have in the occupied territories,Jerusalem,the West Bank and Gaza? I think it will as Robomatic says more "terror inside and out". ifor

---

Someone wrote today that this is probably the only war in history where one side consists of mainly unarmed civilians who are penned in quite a small area and who are not allowed out beyond the guarded perimeter. They are told to flee by leaflets dropping from the air but there is nowhere to escape to.

Every day in this war they are being pounded by high explosives from land,sea and air. Chemical warfare is being waged via white phospherous shells fired by the Israeli military. Much of the equipment it uses is supplied either directly by the USA or under licence in Israel.Bush is an accomplice to war crimes.

The hospitals which are coping with some 4000 casualties suffering horrific injuries including limb amputations are totally overloaded.4000 casualties in such a short period of time would test the most sophisticated of hospital systems but Gaza has been starved of basic equipment ,finance and support services for years under the Israeli blockade.

Hundreds of the dead are children. Many of these children are babies and infants.

Whole family groups have be exterminated by young Israeli pilots , artillerymen and tank crews firing into one of the most densely packed cities in the world.

Gaza is a city built by refugees from other,earlier land grabs and massacres.

I don't think it is going to work out as planned by the Israelis. They can pulverise the city [they have done it before in Beirut several times : 1982 and 2006 springs to mind], they can slaughter civilians in large numbers [ Sabra and Shatilla ] but Israel is finding it harder and harder to win any war. Israel may well find itself having to control the ruins of Gaza with its million plus population seething with hatred and anger at what has been done to them. And sooner or later it will have to get out just as it had to run from Lebanese soil.

I want to know from the Zionists what rights do Palestinians have under the Israeli jackboot? Apart from the right to be blown up or starved or imprisoned without trial?? They are not going away.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

Israel appears also to be testing new weapons (DIME weapons). I don't know if it's true or not, thankfully not being there to find out, but here's a TV report with more details -

Israel tests new weapons

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

BBruce - I don't think you can really say the PA is in charge of the West Bank in any meaningful sense. The Israeli army and Israeli colonists are the ones mainly in charge of what goes on in the West Bank, and the PA is allowed to get on with the job of pretending to be a country as long as it doesn't get in the way of anything the former two decide. The PA have probably realised that nothing is to be gained from attacking Israel, correct. But all this proves is 'might is right' and does not make the colonization of the West Bank moral or correct.

Not so long ago Hamas was trying to form part of a delegation with Fatah to negotiate a peace with Israel, including the point repeatedly mentioned, Israel's being there. By trying to involve themselves in this delegation Hamas were de facto saying they accepted the reality of the situation, whether they liked it or not ebing another matter. Israel rejected any delegation containing Hamas ensuring both sides returned to what they know best.

But in that instance it was Israel that slapped away the hand of peace (or non-war, at any rate, if peace is too strong a word).

It wouldn't really make a difference though if Hamas changed its charter, There are enough disaffected individuals out there for new organisations to spring up as old ones are deemed to have 'gone soft' (Palestinian politicians suffer from the same problems as Israeli ones, reference to further back this thread) and thus to ensure Israeli hardliners always had an excuse to bombard civilian and militant alike and make things so unpleasant that eventually people will take the advice on the leaflets dropped ("Flee! Flee for your lives!") and leave, leaving the area open to annexation again. As long as there's ONE palestinian throwing as much as a hand grenade across the border, the military guys will have all the excuse they need.

The cycle of violence will breed more violence, ensuring no end to the bloodshed. Israel built up radical Isalmist organistaions when they were useful in bringing down the PLO. Then in turn Fatah was used to undermine Hamas, and if Hamas were to change tack they'd be used in the same way. It's divide and conquer, and we've had enough experience of it here to know it when we see it.

Sort out the root issues and most of the problems will cease. 1967 Borders? 1923 borders? What about 1948 borders, even?

Israel could go back inside the Green Line, evacuate its colonies on the West Bank (they could leave the houses intact and good condition as a goodwill gesture to the Palestinians on whose land they're built).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

" ...and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population... "

Didn't you read the links on this post?

"From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM"

In which the BBC reported Israeli troops hiding behind palestinian civilians both in the current conflit and back in july.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

Fatuous as usual, Douggie. Nice job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

That cartoon is just excellent, Bill!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

"who but terrorists would use such a weapon?"

International law permits the use of white phopshorus as an "obscurant" to cover troop movements and prevent enemies from using certain guided weapons, but its use is controversial as it can injure people through painful chemical burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

How come all you guys come out from under your stones at the same time?
Is aggression the best means of defence?
Don't you watch your TV?.....Children burned by white phos! who but terrorists would use such a weapon?
Hundreds of civilians slaughtered, so that Israel can continue to expand.

When the Russians invaded Georgia you all screamed blue murder!! Before you even knew the truth....that the Georgians had attacked and slaughtered hundreds of Ossetians.

You are nothing but a shower of hypocrits...worse than hypocrits, who can support the wholesale murder of women and children.

The Israelis have no scruples, despite the holocaust, or maybe because of it, the lives of the Palestinians mean nothing to them.

The whole world should feel sahame at what is happening in Gaza...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda: 21st Century Nazis
Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda are not political extensions of an ethno ideology contextualized within the framework of a religious narrative. These groups represent nothing more and nothing less than an unbridled commitment to murder, destruction and terrorism. Accordingly, the prophets and ministers of this hybrid religious/political cult preach from the canon of fear and chaos, vociferously advocating the message of religious totalitarianism. This belief system adheres to a strategic plan addressing four specific tactics:

1.        The Destruction of Israel
2.        The Death and destruction of all non believers including Christians, Jews, Hindus and all others
3.        The exploitation of women and children as tools of terror, from human shields to suicide bombers.
4.        The manipulation of media in order to justify and brand behavior, victimization.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/samuel_rodriguez/2009/01/hamas_hezbollah_and_al_qaeda_2.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:50 AM

Hamas – The Elected "Government" of Gaza

Hamas deploys suicide attackers including women and children, and rigs up schools and houses with booby-trap explosives. Its leaders knew as a matter of certainty this would lead to civilian casualties if there was a ground battle. Virtually every aspect of its operations is illegal under international humanitarian law – Yet the accusation of 'war crimes' in charged and highly emotive language is reserved solely for condemnation of Israeli actions.

If the IDF had no regard for civilian lives it would never have leafleted and telephoned residents in Gaza, warning them when it was about to attack their area: after all, that also gives Hamas notice – hardly the act of an army devoted to military victory at all costs. Similarly, the IDF's unilateral commitment to a daily three-hour ceasefire to permit the evacuation (to Israel) of casualties, and for the passage of "humanitarian aid", also allows Hamas time to regroup and redeploy for future attacks.

Of course, none of these arguments can penetrate the brains of the superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars who think it's cool to go on marches chanting, "We are all Hamas now". Even if these luvvies might not be aware that on Christmas Eve Hamas legalised crucifixion as a punishment for those who "weaken the spirit of the people", and have been shooting such political enemies in the head when they find them in hospitals conveniently injured by Israeli bombing raids, they still deserve to be dismissed as useful idiots for Hamas, who although elected to govern and look to the interests of the population of Gaza as a whole, have shown no interest in fulfilling either function.

Of course should there ever be future elections in Gaza, the world press will clamour to cover exactly how Hamas apply their new punishment for those found weakening the spirit of "the people" and on whom they exercise this punishment. Perhaps all those superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars, who are "all Hamas now" will pop out to Gaza to lend a hand?

Many years ago now Israel swapped land for peace with Egypt and with Jordan. Both those countries in return recognised Israel's right to exist and the agreements have held. Hamas, Fatah and the PLO have broken, or voluntarily ended, cease-fire after cease-fire. As pointed out there have been no attacks from or on the West Bank, where Fatah and the PA are slowly coming to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained in attacking Israel. Hamas must renounce the sections of its charter that call for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews, because until that is done there is no basis for negotiation - Both sides are on record, Israel wants peace, Hamas just wants a "cease-fire", or a truce - until they are ready for the next time - That approach serves nobody, least of all the "Palestinian" people, high time they themselves realised that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM

Sorry, Barry, I can't develop a "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" attitude when I know that one is a democratic multi-ethnic society with freedom of speech and religion, and the other a dictatorial terrorist regime which rules by terror inside and out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM

It seems to me that one of the major sins of Israels is not enough people died from the thousands of rockets Hamas has lobbed into it. If a like number of Israelis died from rockets, compared to those Palestinians who have died from the current conflict, would those who blame Israel for the invasion still be as condemning?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

Both sides will cut there noses off to spite their faces, then the world can look & laugh at how ugly both are. You may disagree & stand for one side or the other & make excuses for both till the cows come home but if the outside world does not demand an end neither deserves to exist. Let them all become citizens of a better place. A call for the dismantling & changing of both regimes might be in line at this point. They both ahd a way out & neither wants to live, so let them die. The mid East is better for being rid of them both.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:40 PM

Ya Robo, what it'll take is for the heavens to fall,,, on the heads of both.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

What it takes is some outside power (would that it were the UN)to force both sides to behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Barry:
What it takes according to Hamas is for Israel to cease to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:30 PM

Every now & then, a cartoonist hits it right on the head

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

Israel's campain to wage war against the citizens of Palestine in order to have Hamas overthrown from within is not working, it is nothing more than terrorism itself & is now backfiring with Jews throughout Europe being threatened. Tit for tat is what someone said above. This will go on until the innocent civilians in both states force their own governments to stop devouring their own children. There are no excuses & since Israel holds the most power, is the most aggresive. hold the finiancial cards as well as most of the other cards of influence they should be the ones to bare the burden & make a peace offering accecptable, no matter what it takes. That's right, No Matter What It Takes. It (the ball) is & was always in their court even during the 67' Take!
As far as I'm concerned if they don't make the move they need to take now they (Israel) will now & forever have it's place in history as uqual & as oppsite as it holds a place in history prior to the ending of WWII.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

McGrath wrote:
Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

I think the evidence is against this. Israel already had the increased firepower and was not shelling, bombing, or targetting Palestinian civilians until goaded by unceasing attacks under the aegis of Hamas with their weapons, primitive or supplied by others, on Israeli civilians.

The Palestinians are being used as a cultural 'bullyboy'. The bully goes into a bar with a much smaller buddy who provokes a fight with the victim. Bully moves in, polishes off the target. The Palestinians are heartbreakingly miserable, but they are kept that way for a larger purpose by Fatah, Hamas, and the other Arab countries.

If the Israelis were like Hamas, there would be no Palestinians. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

You may not have any disire to kill anyone BB 40% of those being killed right no are Palestinian woman & children, 70 killed & over 200 wounded over this past weekend & no Israeli's???????

Somethings wrong with these totals, a bit one sided.

It's no wonder that Jews throughout Europe are now feeling the weight of Israel's onslaught against those in the Gaza.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

"you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact."


I have not found this to be so. i refer to the Hamas Charter, and nothing said by HAMAS has ever repudiated it. FATAH has changed it's view: Note there is no attack on or from the West Bank, under PLO control.

As for the territory, it all depends on what year you want to define borders: If you say pre-1967 war, I will ask both Why not give Israel the results of the war, and Why not use the 1923 borders that were determined when the Arab Moslim Homeland of Trandsjordan was formed. All the other nations in the region were defined then: Why should Israel be any different?

I have NO desire to kill anyone- but I have little sympathy for those who try to kill civilians deliberately, and then complain when their effort to hide their attacks behind their own civilian population does not give them the freedom to kill that they desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

"Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing." - MGOH

Em Kevin, the Israeli's stopped Hamas and other Islamist/Palestinian Terrorist organisations from carrying out suicide bombings, car bombings and sniper attacks by building a wall and closing/closely controlling crossing points. Hamas and other groups operating without restriction within Gaza then started indiscriminately firing rockets, both home-made (Kassam's), or as supplied by Iran (Grad's), into Israel. Those rockets are deliberately directed at centres of civilian inhabitation and the intention is to kill Israeli citizens, whether they be Jew, Christian or Muslim. The fact that they, Hamas et al, haven't been outstandingly successful is not from the want of trying. Numbers of casualties in those areas have been slight because the Israeli citizens in the areas affected are blessed with the presence of responsible government and have been provided with an efficient warning system to alert the population at large and suitable shelters that are easy to access and numerous. While Israel does its best to keep civilians out of harms way, Hamas as the governing body in Gaza does exactly the opposite.

1. Officially recognise Israel's right to exist and live in peace with its neighbours.

2. Officially recognise the right to life of Israeli citizens free from attack or threat of attack.

3. Halt the launching of attacks upon Israel and its citizens

Do that and you have peace tomorrow. After 60 years it's high time somebody tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 PM

BBruce... I presume you looked over my threads in detail, as I haven't had time to. Not sure what qualifies as 'no real comments' to you, but I'm fairly sure that my protest about rockets / attacks on Israelis by Hamas (or whoever) above is not my first.

Since you don't live in my neck of the woods you wouldn't have seen me protesting about the Russian invasion of Georgia, as I didn't post any comments here about it (as far as I remember). But protest about it I most certainly did.

I found myself at odds with some of what you might call my 'long haired, muesli munching lefty friends' over that one. They generally seemed to have felt that Russia was defending breakaway regions from Georgian aggression. It was yet again one of those 'chicken and egg' things that infest our world, a Russian-doll of wars and historical aggression (no pun intended). Georgia, the big bully of Ossetia was being attacked by bigger bully Russia. Ossetia wanted to be part of Russia, but was part of Georgia. You could even argue it was Russia being spiteful towards the West for recognizing Kosovan independence in spite of Serbian displeasure. You could go on forever about who was right and wrong there, it was highly complex, sprang up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast, leaving hundreds dead in its wake as these things do, before you'd even have a chance to get a handle on what it was all about.

But what I did feel was that yet again the human primate was resorting to violence to sort out its problems. So I protested, for whatever good it might do when people are determined to hurt each other.

You know, when I was a younger man, I often felt angry, ready to aggression - "kill em all! Nuke 'em!" It seemed the best way to deal with life's obstacles - from bad neighbours to truculent countries or people who didn't think the same as me. Thankfully I never killed or nuked anyone, and as I got older I began to question this worldview.

You may laugh at me for quoting this example but in such cases I often think of what Gandalf said to Merry when Merry drew his sword, ready to kill Gollum: "put your sword away, do not be so hasty to take life! Can you give it [life] as easily?" (Lord of the Rings)

There's also the example of the Aesop's fable where the wind failed by force to get the man to take off his coat, while the sun by shining warmly, did.

You have to ask yourself, what do you want? If you really want an end to this particular spot of violence in the Middle East, it will require looking outside the 'iron fist' worldview. Have Hamas and Islamic Jihad's rockets brought about a Palestinian homeland? Do you seriously believe Israeli missiles will make groups like Hamas disappear and everyone live happily together?

As I said before, there are root causes here - something has to be done about what Palestinians want in relation to a homeland. Now before you barge in and say 'but what about...?' let's remember Israelis now HAVE a homeland. I believe if you look into it carefully you'll find Hamas have moderated their position somewhat from their original 'charter' and have accepted this fact.

The two main problems are that Israel has tried to expand that homeland well beyond what was originally envisaged and to that end have taken over territories such as the West Bank which they are now settling with their own citizens regardless of the people who live there already; as part of this strategy they have strangled the economic and social life of both Gaza and the Palestinian West Bank.

Once again, before you say "but Israel was entitled to defend itself against aggression etc., and its exapnsion is part of that"

Yes, of course, it was - and is - entitled to defend itself against aggression, but that does not permit it to expand the original territory allocated either. It can defend itself effectively, crossing its borders to do so if attacked along those borders, then withdraw to within its borders. Curently it's sprawled well past the original Homeland allocated. It has to be said this seems quite intentional.

And before you say "but that's why Israeli army is in the West bank, to defend Israel from suicide bombers etc." let me state the obvious: If you want to protect your citizens from suicide bombers, you do not send them out to settle among their would-be assassins, and secondly, the occupation of the West Bank is the cause of the attacks, not the consequence.

Anyway, in short, you can't have your cake and eat it; Israel cannot occupy the lands and destroy the livelihoods of its neighbours and expect to live in peace with them at the same time. If these issues are dealt with, terrorist organisations among palestinians will dry up first to a trickle and then to nothing. Yes, there will always be a few individuals on either side who might actually go as far as carrying a life-long hatred of their neighbours. Humans are not always rational, and sadly both sides have reasons to harbour grudges. How will that be achieved? A two-state solution? A single state where (Muslim?) Palestinian arabs live as equals with Israeli (Jewish?) brethern? I don't know, and it doesn't matter as long as it works. But the sum of violence WILL decrease dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:27 PM

pdq: "In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female"

I think I know what you mean - i.e such a high birthrate might be seen as a bad thing to those with few resources to care for the born. But especially in recent years I have come to see the birth of any baby as a source of celebration and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Ok folks, we have flogged this poor old horse near to death. It has all been said and no minds have been changed.
I think I'll just check out on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:54 PM

Terrorism is born out of a fatal & final desprate attempt at a release from an overwhelming oppression. Had slavery in the US had the means & technology to wage terror it would have done so with a vengence. There is always some truth at the birth of terrorism but from there it becomes a festering wound that sickens. If an oppressor wantst o truly eradicate terrorism it has to start with an examination of it's onw policy towards those seeking relief from them & the causes that the terrorists sprung from. As with the US we have still yet to ask ourselves why we are hated & subjected to terrorist attacks. Until we asked these questions & do something about answering those asnwers we will only continue to treat the symptoms of a disease instead to treating the causes that are making & turning us into such sick societies. How can anyone justify the actions of Israel or Hamas, we should be condeming both, both are killing the innocent. You cannot ask one to stop & not the other, both are to be condemed. But I don't believe that Israel or Hamas wants to stop both have their causes to champion & crusade & the innocent be damned. The only problem is, were I Israeli I would be ashamed to be called an Israeli, if I were Hamas I also be ashamed but I would not be ashamed to be called a Palestinian. How many of each are dying? I see very few Israeli dying, I see few Hamas dying too but I see very many Palestinians dying. That is what the US did to Iraq or tried to claim it did. We as a nation invaded a country using the excuse that we were trying to stop a group not a nation from attacking US, so we killed a nation in the process. Israel is killing a people to get to an origanisation.

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

On the subject of human shields,

Israel has made much of Hamas' cowardice in allegedly using their children as shields.

I am not convinced of the substance of this allegation,

but if it is to be taken seriously then shouldn't at least hold fire with our scathing judgements until we have found a suitable explanation for these reports.

Israeli soldiers using Palestnians as human shields?????

During this conflict ...

and

back in July

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

A piece in Haaretz this week about something Israelis and Palestinians have in common If you (or I) were Palestinian

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization"...

The thing is - it's important that we should understand that though we can rightly repidiate terrorism as a tactic, but we should never assume that "terrorists" are that different from us, or that we have some moral superiority if we have never been in a situation where terrorism seems to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

More or less my point McG.
Thank you.

Josef Stalin said "Kill one man, it's a tragedy. Kill a million, it's a statistic"

The killing needs to stop before one side achieves statistic status, because for me it's all a tragedy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Firing of inaccurate rockets is not a very efficient way of killing civilians. Delivering the explosives through suicide bombers, or for that matter IRA style non-suicide bombers, is a lot more efficient if that is the aim. So it seems unlikely that that is what Hamas has being doing.

And the IDF could very easily have killed far greater numbers if that was what they had been doing.

Throwing around those kind of accusations is just playing propaganda, and it provides an easy escape from the true horror of what has been and is going on. It's an accusations that doesn't have any impact.

What has been happening, on both sides, is that people are using such weapons as they have at their disposal as ways of conveying a political message to their opponents on the other side and of strengthening their position in relation to their opponents on their own side. And in this they have been coldbloodedly disreqarding the fact that their actions have caused, and are causing the deaths of innocent civilians on the other side.

The fact that there is such an enormous disparity between the death and suffering caused by the IDF actions and that caused by Hamas inevitably affects the way people respond. In one way this is wrong - there's a quote (from some great rabbi I think) about how killing one person is equivalent to killing a universe, and it's true.

But we do react to numbers - 9/11 affected us more than an assassination of a banker on a street somewhere would have. And the hecatomb in Gaza affects outsiders harder than the occasional Hamas rocket that actually killed someone rather than blowing a hole in a field. And I would seriously assert that for pretty well everyone, in this case it is not a matter of the religion or the nationality of the murdered innocents, but because of the scale of the killing. Not just in Gaza today, but over the years as well.

Incidently I'm not suggesting that the fact that the disparity between the numbers killed by the two sides should in itself be seen as indicating some kind of moral difference. If Hamas had the firepower and the delivery systems I am sure they would use this just as ruthlessly as the IDF - and if the IDF merely had the weapons of Hamas they would be using them in much the same way as Hamas has.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

" Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

...If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested."

So NO complaints, unless you think you are above the shit you dish out.


You remember- this from when you stated that Israel was only attacking much less than a square mile of Gaza (since the civilian casualties were too low to let you claim indescrimnate attacks, otherwise.)