BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

In support of CarolC, I asked a simple question.

Q: Is the life of an Israeli civilian worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian?

Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists.

"Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out.

The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here.

I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Peace is not only the absence of war, but the presence of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:08 PM

"I am disinclined to believe that it is legitimate."

Of course you are...it doesn't fit your point of view.



"Little wheels spin and spin...", B. Sainte-Marie

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM

CarolC writted:
Date: 23 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

"Also, Iran's elections are free and open, and moderates do get elected. It is not a particularly controversial thing to say that"

Iranian elections are subject to nominees not getting certified due to a clique of religious officials who are not elected.
"All candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council."

Not unlike Soviet Elections where the ruling clique determined who could be- well, the ruling clique.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM

Not only does it not fit my point of view, it doesn't seem to fit the point of view of anyone other than a small group of people with a rather large political agenda.


On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers.

The people of Iran want Western countries to leave them alone and let them correct the problems in that country themselves. They don't want our interference. They have said this many times. They have said that they can take care of what needs to be done, but not if the US and other Western countries (and Israel) keep interfering. They have said many times that when other countries interfere, that strengthens the hard-liners in Iran rather than weakening them. This is, of course, exactly what the government of Israel wants, because the government of Israel uses the presence of right-wingers in power in Iran as an justification for attacking that country.

The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:34 PM

However. Having said all of that, I will consider accepting that speech as legitimate if the people who are trying to convince me it is will accept the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:38 PM

"the reality of the quotes contained in this website...

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html "


"the only sites that come up are ones with a political axe to grind. Not a single legitimate news outlet comes up."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:45 PM

Anyone care to address my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:23 PM

Just as I thought. Some people are willing to accept information that comes from websites with a political axe to grind that coincides with their own particular political axe, but if someone else posts something from a website with a political axe they don't happen to like, they refuse to accept it.

What's good for the goose, as they say...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:25 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:48 PM

"Global Security dot Org is not a legitimate news outlet."
Well, maybe they are untrustworthy rat bastards, so how about this source with the 'complete transcript' of Rafsanjani's speech. By the way, I'm not enthralled with citing them, but I believe you've used them a time or two over the years.


http://www.wwan.cn/documents/ga/docs/56/a56790.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:57 PM

LOL!!!!

That is a letter from the Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations (an employee of the government of Israel) that he or she addressed to the Secretary General.

There can be no more biased source than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 AM

Here's an interesting quote from that Palestine Remembered site...


During the course of the 1948 war, reports of WAR CRIMES perpetrated by the Israeli soldiers reached the Israeli Cabinet. Such atrocities shocked Aharon Cizling, and during a Cabinet meeting he said:

    "I've received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn't sleep last night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going. . . . I often disagree when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn't like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken. . . . Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we're investigating them. But they must be investigated. . . ." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 26)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story697.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:21 AM

"Not unexpectedly, nobody answered "yes", because in doing so they would have branded themselves racists."

That is solipsist bs. Michael. I answered your question, but I'm maybe too old to get sucked into Socrates and his 'answer my question in the way I want you to answer it' crap. Nice try but no banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:22 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting that question answered.
Not even by you, Carol? You're breaking my heart now.

I'm on your side, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:38 AM

Heh. I figured that I had already answered that question in any number of posts of mine right here in this thread.

Of course they should all be treated and protected equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 AM

Here's another interesting quote from the Palestine Remembered site...


A month after the Nazi pogrom against Germany's Jews, famously known as Kristallnacht, Ben-Gurion provided an interesting mathematical formula for saving German Jewish kids. He stated in December 1938:

    "If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story696.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 04:54 AM

Michaelr requested that someone address his post of - 24 Apr 09 - 06:53 PM

1.        "Human lives are of equal value" appears to be the consensus. Given that, does it not then follow that these human lives should be treated and protected equally? The government of Israel and the Western powers are clearly not dealing equitably with the Palestinian people. Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing this out."

Agreed human lives should be treated and protected equally. Can you now tell us michaelr how Hamas Charter squares with that concept? You didn't mention it in your post but I am sure it was foremost in your mind when you wrote your condemnation of the Government of Israel and the Western Powers. Can you provide us with a quote from the Hamas Charter whereby Israelis Arab or Jew will be treated and protected equally? Tell me does the United Nations recognize the Palestinian Authority or Hamas? They cannot recognize Hamas under the terms of their Charter as long as Hamas calls for the destruction of a recognized member state (Israel) so it is not just a matter of the Western Powers is it michaelr, even although it is from the EU that the Palestinians receive the lions share of their international aid.

2.        "The origins of the state of Israel are another case in point. It should be remembered that anti-semitism was not invented by Nazi Germany, but had been a paradigm throughout Europe for centuries. Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". This was clearly racist, and Ahmedinejad is correct in pointing it out. Whatever you think of the man, it is intellectually dishonest to demonize him in the way I've seen here."

Much of what you state above is irrelevant twaddle. The bare facts of the matter with regard to the origins of the State of Israel (May 1948) are that the UN proposed a Plan involving a two-state solution in 1947 as the old League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was ending. The Jews of Palestine accepted that proposal; the Arabs of Palestine rejected it. Had they accepted as their Jewish neighbours did there would have been no displaced persons Jew or Arab, therefore no "Right of Return" question to resolve. The Palestinian Arabs would have in terms of territory far more than they say they are willing to settle for now.

I particularly liked your "Britain and the other WWII victors involved decided cynically that "we'll dump the Jews (who we don't want) on the Arabs (who we don't care about)". Perhaps you could give us figures for the great Jewish exodus from the United Kingdom post 1945 michaelr? Quite the contrary to what you suggest, it was the express desire of European Jews themselves that they migrate to the newly formed Israel after the Second World War, understandable considering their treatment at the hands of the Germans and lack of protection afforded them by what they, at the time, saw as being their native Governments and fellow countrymen. As to the British not caring about "the Arabs", we didn't care enough about them to the degree that within five years of the start of the Palestine Mandate Britain had handed over 77% of it to "the Arabs" for their exclusive settlement which by 1926 they ruled as an autonomous state within the mandate. Of the remaining 23% of the Mandate this was open to settlement by all.

Therefore michaelr if Ahmedinejad based his remarks on what you have laid out, then the man is clearly a racist and deserves all the approbation heaped upon him and the regime that he represents. We are of course talking of the regime that backs Hezbollah and Hamas both terrorist organizations who for years have been guilty of maintaining the Palestinian people in poverty and despair despite the millions upon millions that have been donated in aid to ease their suffering.

3.        "I don't support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination.

Very commendable of you not to support Hamas michaelr, neither do I, and while I likewise support the right of the Palestinian people to peace and self-determination I also support the right of the people of Israel to peace and self-determination. Interesting to see that you apparently do not, as they don't merit a mention in your post.


CarolC, 24 Apr 09 - 09:33 PM.

"On the subject of Iranian elections... since the Guardian Council do approve moderate candidates, the people in Iran do have a choice between moderates and right-wingers."

If memory serves me correctly CarolC in a democracy anyone wishing to stand for political office is free to do so. They do not have to present themselves for a selection process in front of a committee of 12 non-elected people who adjudicate as to the "suitability" of candidates. Your words quoted above are "weasely" in the extreme and you damn well know it, were the same system enforced in the USA you'd be up in arms about it.

"The government of Israel does not want Iran to correct its problems - what they want is for Iran to be destroyed as a viable entity just as was done to Iraq."

Now then CarolC I have sources for quotes from the Iranian President stating that Israel should be wiped off the map – can you please provide any source where the Israeli Prime Minister or president has made similar statements about Iran?

Jim Carroll, 25 Apr 09 - 02:40 AM

"It's hard not to notice that Israel has just found itself not guilty of targeting Palestinian civilians during it's recent 'adventure' in Gaza, despite Israeli soldiers' statements to the contrary - now there's a surprise!!!"

Bit like the "Indian rope trick" Jim, everybody can tell you what it is and swears that it exists but no-one has ever actually seen it done. The "Israeli soldier's statements" you seem to put such faith in were all thoroughly investigated and guess what Jim? None of them actually saw what they stated, they had heard it from somebody who knew somebody who had seen it, and hear-say is no evidence at all – is it??

By the bye Jim had those Israeli soldiers said that such incidents definitely had not happened would you have accepted it?? Something tells me that you would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 06:24 AM

Terribus,
The soldiers' statements included at length observations on how they regarded and were trained to regard Palastinians - "Less than animals" as one so eloquently put it, pretty much the same as the Nazis were trained to regard the Jews.
Their statements also included their own behaviour towards the Gazans - perhaps they were somewhere else while they were shooting civilians (not forgetting, shitting in their cooking utensils).
Of course - it's all a leftie plot anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:04 AM

If, in a democracy, anyone who wishes to stand for election is free to do so, then Israel is not a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:06 AM

By the way, there are no quotes anywhere (not accurate translations, anyway) of the president of Iran stating that Israel should be wiped off the map. This is because he never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM

Commentary on this semantic legerdemain is available here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel.

In essence the subtleties of meaning vary with translation, a clever way of threatening by insinuation just as some posters who implicate by insinuation then challenge those who challenge them to show where they said that which is being challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:05 PM

Direct translation here. The only semantic ledgerdemain is coming from those who are trying to twist his words to mean something that they clearly do not...


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025

Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made.

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism." Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster's title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass' narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote – they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomenei, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

The Actual Quote:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad's web site

The Speech and Context:

While the false "wiped off the map" extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad's actual speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the "map" comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical trajectory leading up to his call for a "world without Zionism." One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West's apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the "Zionist regime" was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world's struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran – the U.S. installed monarch

(2) The Soviet Union

(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise." This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.


Also relevant is this quote from Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei...

"We have no problem with the world. We are not a threat whatsoever to the world, and the world knows it. We will never start a war. We have no intention of going to war with any state."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:15 PM

"despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

It seems that translators who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with that.

"All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

Their disagreement is whether the term "wipe" (away or off) is used as opposed to "vanish". There is no dispute about the fact that what is predicted to be wiped or to vanish is not Israel, or Jews, but the political "regime in Jerusalem", which are entirely different things.

And there is no dispute from the Iranian translators about Ahmadinejad's meaning - that he is predicting that it will happen, rather than threatening to make it happen.

It is quite obvious to anyone who isn't trying to spread lies about Iran for the purpose of drumming up support for an attack on that country, that Ahmadinejad is saying that the "regime" (government) of Israel is going to cease to exist at some point in the future, without any help from Iran, and that he, Ahmadinejad, sees that as a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM

Wait up!! When you lot have stopped dancing on the head of a pin square away what the President of Iran said with the declared aim of Hamas as written in their Charter clearly states. Hamas is backed by Iran YES or NO.

By the bye CarolC can you tell me how many Jewish members of any legislatitive council ther are in the the 22 Arab countries in the world. I know for certain that there are freely elected Arab members of the Israeli Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:52 PM

Carol, it is quite definite that there are all sorts of quotes that can be found and excised and held up for comment. You are cherry-picking your quotes, your situations, and overlooking the forest for the trees. And this is a tactic. A rather obvious one that loses traction with overuse, as you are clearly doing with your self-successive posts.

What is obvious about the Israeli forest is that it contains many Arab trees. What is obvious about the Arab forest is that it contains NO Jewish trees. And you are trying to blame the JEWS for this!

BTW, The Iranian forest has a dungeon in it with a freshly imprisoned Iranian-American journalist sequestered there on trumped-up charges. Ahmedinajad wrote a letter suggesting that when she appeal she be allowed to defend herself (!!!!!!!!!!!)

As for the Iranian Guardian council they approve only those candidates that they approve. This assures them of an unopposed domination of the Iranian people. I suspect the Iranian people do not like that and would be aghast at your portrayal of their 'free elections'. (FREE? You get arrested for NOT voting?)

The operating rule of HELL is that which is not prohibited is mandatory !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

Lady who cut my hair a few days back was kind enough to tell me about herself. I asked where she was from. She said, "Persia." She follows the Baha'i belief. Said that it was brutal in her home country for people who were not Muslim. So much for freedom in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:55 PM

We are discussing Iran (a Persian country), not Arab countries. In Iran, as was observed above, candidates must be approved by a council that represents the revolutionary regime. In Israel no party can stand for election that hasn't been approved by the government. For instance, a candidate belonging to a party that calls Palestinian right of return is not allowed to stand for office.

There is no meaningful difference between these two things.


The Hamas charter doesn't recognize Israel. Hamas has said that they don't recognize Israel because Israel will not declare its borders. I think that's perfectly reasonable. However, Hamas has also said that they will not try to stop a two-state resolution to the problem if the Palestinians vote for that in a referendum.

The government of Israel has never recognized a Palestinian state, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

I have been accused of cherry picking my quotes. I would suggest that this is precisely what those who are arguing the other side are doing. For instance, they are completely ignoring anything members of the Iranian government are saying that doesn't support their view of Iran and their desire to wage war against that country.


I never said they have freedom in Iran. I said they have free and open elections, and I said that the people in Iran want to sort out their problems themselves without the interference of Western governments. I think they have more of a right to decide that than Iranians living in other countries, since the ones living in other countries don't have to live with the consequences of that interference. The ones still in Iran do have to live with those consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:05 PM

I didn't blame Jews for the absence of Jews in Arab countries. An Arab Jew, however, has laid the blame, not on "the Jews", but on those Jews who formed the Zionist movement during the formation of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:09 PM

I think it is also obvious that those who support the government of Israel overlook the forest for the trees. For instance, we have, above, someone who thinks that only a direct quote from the prime minister of Israel can suffice to show what Israel's actual agenda is, rather than looking at the large body of quotes from many members of the Israeli government over the course of Israel's history, and also Israel's actual track record of what it and the individual members of its government have done. It's true, this is a tactic, and those who support the government of Israel are masters at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:14 PM

June 6, 2004

Claims that reforms in Iran have put an end to torture are simply false. More than ever, journalists, intellectuals and activists are afraid to voice opinions critical of the government.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa Division

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:16 PM

April 5, 2009

(CBS) Much of the attention on Iran over the last few years has focused on its mysterious nuclear program. Another mystery that has received far less attention is torture in Iran's prisons.

It's a story the Iranian government doesn't want you to hear; a story a man risked his life to tell. His name is Ahmad Batebi, and quite by accident he became one of the most famous dissidents in Iran.

He says he endured years of torture in an Iranian prison, after his picture appeared on the cover of The Economist magazine. He escaped from Iran last year, and told CNN's Anderson Cooper how he did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And the people in Iran have said many times that interference from Western countries, strengthens, rather than weakens the hard-liners in the regime.

The motives of people who are using the rights of Iranians as an excuse to attack Iran are very transparent. They won't listen to what the Iranians themselves say about what they want, but rather, they think they are entitled to override the desires if the people of Iran and impose their own agenda on the people of that country. This has nothing whatever to do with the rights of the Iranians, and everything to do with a desire to establish and enforce Israeli hegemony in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM

And now,

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Smears and taunts is all they've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:27 PM

. . . and cut and paste, lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Some interesting commentary on the walkout at the Geneva Conference on racism.


"The 23 countries that walked out of the Geneva Conference during Ahmadinejad's speech are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

The 27 EU members are the above plus Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Poland, which had already decided not to send delegates at all. The other 5 countries which had already decided not to send delegates at all are Australia, Canada, Israel, New Zealand and the US.

So the formula for the bloc claiming that Ahmadinejad is 'racist' is: EU, plus Israel, plus the surviving 'Anglo-Saxon' or 'English-speaking' — i.e., white colonial — states: Australia & New Zealand, the USA & Canada. It seems then that this bloc is no more nor less than the white, western colonialist and imperialist nations, with Israel acting as their convenor, and that to be opposed to white, western colonialism and imperialism is the real definition of 'racism' in their eyes."

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/mohammad-of-vancouver-on-the-antiahmadinejad-bloc-.html


And also...

What credibility is there in Geneva's all-white boycott?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM

Smears and taunts...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:35 PM

My, oh my.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM

Damn. There's the trouble. He's a closet Christian . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

Hey, we're all weekend posting. I appreciate ya'll's prompt responses. Hope you're having some good weather as we are! I'm at my usual South Anchortown coffee hangout. It's soon going to be too warm for me to bear being indoors and I'm going out and rake the volcanic ash out of my still sleeping lawn (along with last year's leaves, I'msolazy). So I'll be posting just a little more staccato like. I appreciate that people are arguing a bit more than mere abusing, just wanted to register my caffeinated well-being to you ALL.

Fondly,

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM

Latte? PLEASE say no . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:05 PM

I think I would add, about those who resort to smears and taunts in discussions like these, that while those tactics do nothing to actually further their arguments, I guess I can understand the appeal of that approach and the masturbatory sort of pleasure it obviously gives them.


It's a bit on the warm side here today (sunny and 82 F), so I've been coming in for breaks every now and then. As the shade takes more of the yard, I'll be taking fewer breaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:10 PM

Stop being so repetative. Make it taunts and smears for a change.

Now, back to coffee . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:19 PM

No latte, can't afford paying an extra two bucks for an ounce of froth. (They put whipped cream on top for nothin'!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

Two bucks for that? Sheesh . . . .