BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

DonT

If you make false claims about me, I am entitled to turn them back on you.

"As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?" (Not militants in the report I read)

The troops that told them to get under cover in the building were infantry- 24 HOURS later the ARTILLARY hit that building. IDF is investigating ( as they should) but this is an example of WHY THE GENEVA CONVENTION states that military targets should not be placed in civilian areas. Another example of the fog of war- IF deliberate I have a lot more confidence that the IDF will punish those responsible than that ANY Hamas will be held to account for their war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

""And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously""

Bollocks!! Point to one post of mine stating that the palestinians are right in what they are doing.

You can't because I have repeatedly said they are not.

I have also said, and I repeat, NEITHER ARE THE ISRAELIS!!

Get this straight once and for all. Might does not make right. Never has, and never will.

As to your assertions that the IDF are putting their men at risk by trying to reduce civilian casualties, are we to assume that they advised 30 Hamas militants to shelter in a building, then shelled hem to pieces?

NO! They were civilians, many of them children.

This mayhem will never stop while Israel is encouraged by people who indulge them out of guilt feelings from having done NOTHING to stop the holocaust.

BOTH sides need to be slapped down, and made to behave.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

"...is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?"

Well, the goverment of Gaza is now Hamas and they want rockets, bombs and munitions more than they want food.

There is no way that a population of 1.5 million can feed itself in an area the size of Gaza. The problem is the farm land that once supported 200 thousand now sports housing for much of the 1.5 million Arabs who live there. In 1970 the birth rate in Gaza was 9 live births per adult female. Perhaps the highest in modern history. Even the worst case in recent years, Kenya, was 8 live births per female. Gazans have the philosophy of "conquest by numbers".

Yes, aid can come from Egypt as easily as it can come from Egypt, but the government does not want to deal with these militant ****urds anymore than the rest of of the civilized world does.

As far as jobs and industry, why work? They are told on a daily basis that the wealth of the Jew will be theirs when Israel is defeated. They also believe that oil revenue is the birth right of all Arabs, which they are. Yes, Gaza is 99.4% Arab. Plain old garden variety Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Looking at past threads...


Darfur- Tribesmen killed by Arab Moslims.... no real protests

Israelis killed by Moslim terrorists........ no real comments

Palestinians killed by other Palestinians... no comments at all

Palestinians killed by Israelis............. Loud complaints, protests,and moral handwringing



NOW I understand. It is the fact that JEWS are being blamed that is important, not that innocents are being killed. Silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

Nickhere,

You state "But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? "

No, but I do NOT believe that the IDF is acting in that manner.



Do you believe it is wrong to target a civilian population?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Kendall,

see my post here of 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Look at the entire article- I would appreciate YOUR comments. Is it a fair evaluation? Should Israel trust the UN after the past efforts of that body?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

"Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?"

From the past reaction here when Israeli citizens were killed, YES, I believe that you would not be protesting.

Care to show me an example from the past to the contrary?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

Hamas speaks for itself on this 2-minute video.

video clips of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

Full scale bombing of civilians took place in Charleston harbor during our civil war. After the Union soldiers recaptured Fort Sumpter, General Gilmore got fed up with the rebel guns that were pounding Fort Sumpter, and he turned the big cannons of the fort on the city of Charleston. All it did was piss off the population and stiffen their resistance. That's what usually happens when one side or the other refuses to follow the rules of "Civilized" warfare.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, did we say. "Oh my, we are doomed"? or did we hit back with all we had?
When Germany bombed London, did the British knuckle under?

There are two course of action over there. 1. Negotiate. Stop the killing, and work out a deal that they can all live with.
Or, Israel can wipe out Hamas to the last man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Oh Bbruce, come on! "Selective bombings"?? Yes, selected schools, selected hospitals, selected apartment blocks. A bit like throwing a grenade into one CORNER (hence the 'selection') of a crowded room.

Civilians in the same location as valid military targets? Gaza is so tiny and cramped and overcrowded that I don't think Hamas (or any of the other militant organisations) have any choice but to operate alongside the civilian population.

And if that is a good criteria, not only are most of Israel's adult population also military or ex-military, they also live alongside numerous military bases all over Israel. That makes them legit targets also, right?

"Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?"

Well, here's one - let it go on record that I protest the deaths caused by these rockets.

But there's also an issue of proportionality here. What if the boot was on the other foot and Palestinians were fiercely attacking Israel with helicopter gunships, bombs, tanks missiles etc., and causing thousands of civilian casualties, do you seriously think I'd be saying "oh well, they deserve it"? Do you seriously think I wouldn't be protesting against the barbaric killing of Israeli citizens?

The Palestinian rockets have murdered a handful of people - and once again, I abhor that. If one of them landed on my wife or family, I can't even begin to imagine how it would tear my life apart.
But is it justified to kill indiscriminately in response? Over the last few decades Israel has been teaching its neighbours how it expects to be treated in turn should things ever swing the other way.

But there's more to all this than just 'who started it' or numbers killed, or a war carried on by hardliners in each camp. There are root-cause issues of justice, national and social. There's the issue of illegal settlements (West Bank) and no right of return for palestinians who left or were expelled way back in the mists of time' (1940s) - or of Jews who were subjects of pogroms in the same area, for that matter - the blockade of Gaza making it, yes, into an open-air prison (i.e a place where you can't enter or leave at will, as we are all entitled to do in our own countries, issues of criminality aside), etc., etc., Unless these are tackled the bodies will continue to pile up.

It seems those taking the same line as the Israeli government and military believe that one dead Israeli is worth 100 dead palestinians, and that military force will solve all of these issues, not justice or fairness or dialogue. How much longer will these war-hawks be allowed to go on wrecking the world before people get sufficiently sick of them to do something about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"….the blanket bombing of so many innocent." – Barry Finn

Any idea of what "blanket bombing" is Barry? If so please provide details of any sortie flown by IDF pilots that would fit the description. After 14 days fighting in an area of high population density the toll on the civilian population stands at 0.04% of the population – Doesn't look like "blanket bombing" to me.

"The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs, tank shells, phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!" – Ifor

If what you state there were true, have you any idea of what that would actually look like ifor? Take a look at the town of Wesel after three days of what you describe -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wesel_1945.jpg

During World War II, Wesel became a target of the Allies particularly in its capacity as a strategic depot. On the 16, 17 and 19 February 1945, the town was attacked with impact and air-burst weapons and almost entirely destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

I can't say that I've followed all this thread & I can only comment on what I've seen on the news etc., but while I understand that there have been lots of problems on both sides & lots of people think that Israel shouldn't exist for whatever reason, why is Israel being villified for trying to defend their own land? If I've read it right then it was people in Gaza who were sending rockets into Israel onto civilians first and broke the ceasfire, or am I wrong? When I've watched the news it appears to me that it's only certain targets that are being hit within Gaza, far from the wholesale destruction that some people on here are saying. Dreadful to slaughter innocent women & chidren I agree, and yes they should be given care etc. but if the people in Gaza are a fighting force why do they have to hide in people's homes, why not sort themselves out into a proper army & organise the defence of their territory? Surely if the other nations roundabout helped out then they could have a proper military force? After all if other countries like the US help Israel, then why don't countries who sympathise with the Gazans help to organise a proper military force?

The other things that I really don't understand is why are Israel allowed to get away with destroying things like fishing boats that people in Gaza own? Also is there no infrastructure of their own in Gaza? Do they need aid all the time or is it just during this crisis, because I seem to recall hearing a lot about aid for them before. Do they not have their own industries etc? Also why does the aid & medical help have to go through Israel. Isn't there a border with Egypt, or did I imagine that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

" think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing."


I did not say THAT- I said that Israel was NOT conducting a mass bombing of Gaza, regardless of what you say.

Think Dresden, Tokyo, etc. THOSE are mass bombings- 100,000's killed in ONE NIGHT. Gaza is a targeted, very selective bombing- In most cases the civilians killed are in the same location as valid military targets ( which are in violation of the Geneva Conventions by their locations: WHERE are the cries of outrage over THAT?). The number killed is proof to anyone with any military knowledge that the Israelis are NOT targetting civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

To Beardedbruce
GUERNICA
I have just read your comment about the mass bombing of Guernica in 1936.

I think you are wrong when you say it was not the first mass bombing.

The nazis bombed the civilian population of Guernica and some three thousands were killed.It was a war crime.It was shocking even by the barbaric standards of the time.

Picasso painted his masterpiece which now hangs in the UN building in New York and I saw on television some of the delegates hurrying past it without a glance just two days ago.

The point is that the Israeli bombing of Gaza IS comparable to Guernica.

The Israeli war leaders have gone all out to pulverise a city full of civilians and have used the full range of heavy bombs,tank shells,phospherous bombs, naval guns and missiles to terrorise and kill the residents of Gaza.The reports coming out of Gaza are horrific!

In doing so they have blown up schools and the refugees sheltering there,apartment blocks,houses universities and even hospitals.

As Gideon Levy has written today in Haaretz the Israeli newspaper those who support the invasion must also justify the slaughter.
And with several hundred children dead,pregant women blown up and thousands mutilated the war gang have much to explain.

Going back to Guernica when Colin Powell made an important war speech before the invasion of Iraq in 2003 he stood in front of Picasso's anti war masterpiece and it was only a hastily plain sheet covering the painting that prevented him from speaking in front of one of the great anti war symbols of our time.

What is happening in Gaza is a crime and those responsible must be held to account.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

McGrath,

I think the Israeli Politicians were thinking "what family could survive if a rocket lands on the house they are sheltering in."

But again, to the point: Why is it that when Hamas shells Israelis civilians, there was not outrage or even comment, yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:02 AM

Looking in from the outside there's a tendency to take decisions and events as read, as if they weren't the outcome if disagreements and horse-trading between people in the system with divergent agendae. Some trying to calm things down and avoid conflict, others seeing no alternative but to stoke things up.

"...what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue" - so, with an election looming, if you are one of those who want to force more reluctant colleagues to go ahead with an attack on Gaza before the new regime in Washingtin might complicate maters, you want to make sure those rockets are coming from your fellow hardliners on the other side.

Maybe I see these things more in terms of "what family could survive if a airstrike is carried out on the house they are sheltering in." But then my first memories are of the Blitz in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Israeli Airstrike on Gaza Threatens Truce With Hamas
Tuesday, November 04, 2008

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel launched an airstrike on Gaza early Wednesday after its troops clashed with Hamas militants who fired mortars into Israel, leaving six Palestinians dead. It was the first battle since a June truce mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory.

The Israeli army said the clashes erupted late Tuesday after its forces uncovered a tunnel in central Gaza that militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers. It said a special army unit headed to the area to destroy the tunnel. One Palestinian was killed in fierce gunbattles that ensued.

Hamas then fired mortars across the Gaza border into southern Israel and Israel answered with the airstrike in the early hours of Wednesday, killing five suspected Palestinian militants, Israeli and Palestinian officials said. The army said the airstrike aimed at the mortar launchers and hit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

The current Israeli administration is carrying out a policy so vile that only two responses could possibly be expected.


The first is sheer horror.

The other is blind denial.



They are both well evidenced above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

BB

Israel broke the ceasefire on November the 4th.

Military targets? - I don't think so.

And before Israel broke the ceasefire, they had Gaza in a stranglehold, which according to todays BBC bulletins resulted in the deaths of around 200 palestinians who were denied access to hospital treatment when they were turned awat at checkpoints.


I really suggest people read this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

All true, McGrath, but what Israeli politician could survive if they allowed the rocket attacks to continue? Israel tried for ( four?) days AFTER HAMAS had terminated the truce to get them to stop the attacks: THEN they attacked Gaza to reduce/prevent more rockets.

IMHO, it still is the choice of the hardline Hamas ( both by inciting the attacks with continued rocket fire and by hiding in the midst of civilians) to have Gazans killed in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

You don't give a source for that interesting piece, bruce, but (thanks to Google's magic)I see it's from today's Washington Post. Hard Lesson for Israel

"Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire." It seems likely that there are people on both sides who would have seen that kind of deal as undesirable, and who would have been happy to do what they could to provoke the other side.

That would be consistent both with the Israeli raid into Gaza on 4th November that killed six Hamas people, and the subsequent escalation of rocket firing and formal announceent about the end of the ceasefire by Hamas.

And the coincidence of the impending new administration in Washington and the impending Israeli election would have offered a window of opportunity and a political motive for those arguing for an attack on Gaza at this time. (That date 4th November...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Why does Hamas keep fireing rockets into Israel?

This article seems to shed some light...



"The trap that Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni have created for themselves lies not just in Hamas's ability to withdraw its fighters and rockets into mosques, schools and densely populated neighborhoods, where they could probably survive weeks of bloody fighting or go underground. The larger fallacy is the persistent conceit among Israeli leaders that Hamas can somehow be wiped out by economic strangulation or force of arms.

Unlike al-Qaeda, Hamas is not merely a terrorist organization but a social and political movement with considerable support. Its ideology, however repugnant to Israel and the West, is shared by a considerable slice of the population in every Arab country from Morocco to Iraq. Because it is extremist, it thrives on war, the suffering it inflicts on Palestinians, and the anger generated by the endless, graphic and one-sided coverage of the Middle East's satellite television channels. Every day this war continues, Hamas grows politically stronger, as do its allies in other countries and its sponsor, Iran. "

"Though Israel must defend its citizens against rockets and suicide bombings, the only means of defeating Hamas are political. Palestinians, who have no history of attraction to religious fundamentalism, have to be persuaded to choose more moderate leaders, such as the secular Fatah. In the meantime, Hamas's existence must be tolerated, and it should be encouraged to channel its ambitions into politics rather than military activity. That means, yes, elections -- like those Hamas won in 2006, when it took control of the Palestinian legislature.

Those elections took place over Israel's objections, and the outcome caused the Bush administration, which had championed democracy in the Middle East, to lose its nerve. But during the relative quiet of the past six months, when Israel and Hamas observed a semi-truce, politics was beginning to work. Polls conducted by Palestinians showed that Hamas's support was falling in Gaza and the West Bank. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president and Fatah leader, was beginning to talk about holding new elections for president and the legislature; he thought he could win both.

Egypt was working on brokering a deal between the two Palestinian parties. A split began to emerge in Hamas between leaders who wanted to make that deal and extend the peace with Israel, and Iranian-backed hard-liners who wanted to draw Israel into a fight. Israel probably could have ensured that the moderates won the argument by offering to lift its economic blockade of Gaza in exchange for a continued cease-fire. It then could have focused on negotiating a two-state settlement with Abbas and on improving life for Palestinians in the West Bank, while Hamas absorbed the blame for the unremediable misery of Gazans.

Instead, Israel took the Iranian bait and chose to fight."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

UNR 1701 Lebanon Ceasefire


"Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;
No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;
No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;

"14. Calls upon the government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11 to assist the government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft;


a. the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and;

b. the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorised by the government of Lebanon or by Unifil as authorised in paragraph 11; "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

"A U.N. Security Council resolution approved Thursday night called urgently for an immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The U.S., Israel's closest ally and a veto-wielding member of the Security Council, abstained.

While the call is tantamount to a demand on the parties, Israel's troops won't be required to pull out of Gaza until there is a durable cease-fire. The resolution calls on U.N. member states to intensify efforts to provide guarantees in Gaza to sustain a lasting truce, including prevention of illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition."

"A Hamas spokesman said the Islamic militant group "is not interested" in the cease-fire because it was not consulted and the resolution did not meet its minimum demands."

"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas envoy to Lebanon, told the al-Arabiya satellite channel that the group "is not interested in it because it does not meet the demands of the movement."

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the U.N. failed to consider the interests of the Palestinian people.

"This resolution doesn't mean that the war is over," he told the Al-Jazeera satellite television network. "We call on the Palestinian fighters to mobilize and be ready to face the offensive, and we urge the Arab masses to carry on with their angry protests."

Israel's government says any cease-fire must guarantee an end to rocket fire and arms smuggling into Gaza. During a six-month cease-fire that ended with the current operation, Hamas is thought to have used tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border to smuggle in the medium-range rockets it is now using to hit deeper than ever inside Israel.

Hamas has said it won't accept any agreement that does not include the full opening Gaza's blockaded border crossings. Israel is unlikely to agree to that demand, as it would allow Hamas to strengthen its hold on the territory which it violently seized in June 2007.

With Israeli troops now in control of many of the open areas used by militants to launch rockets, gunman have continued shooting from inside populated neighborhoods."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

1. Hamas did take responsibility for rocket attacks from Gaza. This was NOT the first breaking of the truce, but it is 4 days AFTER the end ( four days of Gazan missile attacks)

2. "Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid."

different days. The casualty was Saturday.

3. "Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire"

Launching rockets is NOT "holding their fire", is it????


Each of us have opinions as to the conclusions to be drawn from this conflict, and all have the right to express them. They are opinion, not fact- in ALL cases.

Facts are determined not by what people THINK, but by what they DO.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

Oh Dear. Just catching up on news after switching off TV / computer for most of the holiday season. What a horrible mess.

My tuppence worth -

BBruce, I want to make one or two observations on your cut n' paste from Al Jazeera.

1) you will note that it was Islamic jihad and not Hamas, who broke the truce. Everyone here keeps rattling on about Hamas. Even Israel says it's 'after Hamas' - well I suppose we live in an era of brand-recognition.

2) there seems to be some confusion in the reporting: on the one hand it states Israel launched an air-strike against a rocket-launching group, no reports of any casualties. Then a line down, Israel launched an airstrike = 1 dead Palestinian

3) Tel Aviv said it wouldn't take any military action unless attacks continued (showing benevolent restraint) but a line later "in Israeli airstrikes" (isn't firing missiles / dropping bombs from planes considered a military action anymore? Then what the hell is?)

Anyway, here's another cut and paste by an Israeli guy who served in the Israeli army for a number of years but has a problem with what's going on at the moment:

"How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe


Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the
Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But
its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions"

And here's the link:

Avi Shalim on Gaza in Guardian

Ok, that's my tuppence, I'll leave the rest to the experts

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:23 AM

"the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides."

That I will agree with you on.


Please note 'BOTH'

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM

"A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It did so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men."

Quote from a lengthy article by "Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (who) served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy" : How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe Worth reading and pondering.

But it doesn't make too much sense to concentrate too much on the reasons why things have happened to the exclusion of the more significant question of what are their likely consequences. Whoever had the greater blame in the breakdown of that imperfect ceasefire the important thing is to stop the killing on both sides.

There's an often-quoted rhyme that sums up what I mean there:

Here lies the body of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he walked along.
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

Washington Post


Endgame in Gaza

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, January 9, 2009; Page A17

Israel's leaders have purposely obscured their war aims in Gaza. But there are only two possible endgames: (A) a Lebanon-like cessation of hostilities to be supervised by international observers, or (B) the disintegration of Hamas rule in Gaza.

Hard Lesson for Israel

Under tremendous international pressure -- including from an increasingly wobbly U.S. State Department -- the government of Ehud Olmert has begun hinting that it is receptive to a French-Egyptian cease-fire plan, essentially acquiescing to Endgame A.

That would be a terrible mistake.

It would fail on its own terms. It would have the same elements as the phony peace in Lebanon: an international force that abjures any meaningful use of force, an arms embargo under which arms will most assuredly flood in, and a cessation of hostilities until the terrorist side is rearmed and ready to initiate the next round of hostilities.

The U.N.-mandated disarmament of Hezbollah in Lebanon is a well-known farce. Not only have foreign forces not stopped Hezbollah's massive rearmament, their very presence makes it impossible for Israel to take any preventive military action, lest it accidentally hit a blue-helmeted Belgian crossing guard.

The "international community" is now pushing very hard for a Gaza replay of that charade. Does anyone imagine that international monitors will risk their lives to prevent weapons smuggling? To arrest terrorists? To engage in shootouts with rocket-launching teams attacking Israeli civilians across the Gaza border?

Of course not. Weapons will continue to be smuggled. Deeper and more secure fortifications will be built for the next round. Mosques, schools and hospitals will again be used for weapons storage and terrorist safe havens. Do you think French "peacekeepers" are going to raid them?

(more)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802993.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

oh.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122172946123995.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:28 AM

from AlJazeera reports BEFORE the Israeli attacks...

Hard to argue that Israel broke the that truce, I guess.

.....................................................
UPDATED ON:
Sunday, December 21, 2008
15:24 Mecca time, 12:24 GMT
   News Middle East




Gaza rockets hit southern Israel


The Islamic Jihad group has claimed
responsibility for the attack [AFP]

Eight rockets and mortars fired from Gaza have hit towns in southern Israel, with one house being severely damaged in Sderot, Israeli rescue service workers have said.

No one was injured in the attack, which began at about 7am (0500GMT) on Sunday, two days after the official end of a truce between Israel and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

A migrant worker was wounded by shrapnel in a separate rocket attack on a Kibbutz, an Israeli farming co-operative.

The Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Air raid launched

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Gaza Strip, said that the Israeli military launched an air raid into Gaza, targeting a rocket firing squad.

There were no immediate reports of casualties.

More than 30 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, while one Palestinian fighter was killed in an Israeli air raid.

Those respective attacks came a day after a six-month-old ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ended.

Tel Aviv has said will not take military action if the Palestinian fighters hold their fire, but it has said it will begin a dedicated military operation in Gaza if rocket fire barrages continue.

"The scenarios are clear, the plans are clear, the determination is clear, and so are the ramifications of each of the steps. A responsible government is not happy to go to war, but does not evade it," Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, said in his weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:14 AM

"Fox News and Al Jazeera "

Actually, I do- despite claims by people who don't know me well enough to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower."

An incorrect assessment, as any person with any knowledge of what "mass bombing" means.


ifor, there ARE valid arguements you might use ( though I may differ as to their validity). Why do you feel the need to make blatent false claims (lies) to "win" your point? Is your arguement so weak that only lies can possibly support it?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:01 AM

We didn't call it off but the UN just voted 14 out of 15 for the Israeli's to pull out. We (the US) abstained from voting but Condie did say that we backed the resolution & the spirit of it (Then why didn't we vote for it???). Hopefully the aid can now start flowing in. It's a shmefull act for the blanket bombing of so many innocent. Oh, now I understand why we didn't vote for such aggression to stop. When a nation bombs the innocent citizens of another nation under the guise of defeating terrorism it is actually a terrorist action they are taking on themselves. Such is the shape of the world we live in, shame. These actions were backed by hell. Thank God some one has but a hold on them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

300 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

"You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad."

yes Don T...I realize YOU made the point. I was overly general in my cynical sweep. OTHERS were choosing sides. Several of us tried to make the point, but it did little good.





*back to lurking*

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

I keep musing over ifor's statement that there are two options: Fighting or talking. I'm beginning to suspect there are much more important options: in behavior (and restraint). Maybe lots of little things, like not shutting off water supplies to high tech greenhouses (and thousands of other little examples between these neighbors, probably), are not being attended to properly, DESPITE the talking and screaming and threats and posturing.

I'm just saying ~maybe~ and thowing it out there. This is all still very mysterious to me after a lifetime of reading it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM

Well, Art, what Mick said was that itr was foing to take an intervention to stop this... I agreed... It will...

Answer me this one... Who can call off the occupation of Gaza??? Hint... It ain't the Palestinians... So that leaves us with one other party: the Iaraelis... Unless, of course, you nave another party in mind that can call this thing off???

If so, who???

So, yeah... It is up to Israel to either press on or not... No other party... Mick said it would take intervention... I agreed...

Hey, I don't have an axe to grind here other than observing that it is Israel that holds the cards without intervention...

Yes, when I read the Washington Post today about the Israeli army keeping ambulances from getting to wounded civilians and the Unternation Red Cross portesting the actions I see a very bad PR situation for Israel... The kind that turns hearts and minds...

Like I said... I am not on one side or another... Just an observer who is really pissed off that the US disengaged under Bush from trying to move this very difficult situation toward somthing that resembles peace...

Because I don't walk the the Israeli story line I find being called a polorized or partisan person is personally insulting and a very desperate arguing point...

Reminds me of "You are with us or against us..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:15 PM

Well, people are certainly saying and also reading things in an increasingly polarized fashion, and engaging in hyperbole. But I think Mr. McGrath's contribution of 4:18 deserves commendation.



(One might disagree (or be uncertain) whether "they aren't trying too hard [hard enough] to kill as few civilians as possible," but the school incident is certainly disconcerting.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

"I agree entirely with Big Mick "..."There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards"

There seems to be some inconsistency between those two statements.

I wouldn't regard either Fox News or Al Jazeera as that reliable sources of data from what I've seen of then, more especially the former.

Arguing back and forth about who is to blame in general does seem a bit pointless. Correcting what seem to us to be errors of fact has more point to it, and there are a lot of those around.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

C Ham, I didn't mean to leave you out. The statement that my comment was offensive is off base too. It was NOT MY comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 PM

Teribus, go back and re read what I posted. I did not say, nor did I imply that the theory about the Jewish voting block was my theory. In fact, I said just the opposite. I repeat, IT IS NOT MY THEORY.It is simply something that some people believe, just as, contrary to the evidence, many people still believe that O'Bama is a Muslim.

My own theory is simply that we support Israel because we have a connection through our beliefs. We have no such belief connection with Muslims.

I can't make it any planer than that.
Furthermore, if you still insist that what I posted about the revolution is a myth, offer some evidence to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

I agree entirely with Big Mick - but I don't recognize his comments in Bobert's statement of agreement. This thread, like the other (parallel) one, is entirely polarized. There is no one at all here who demonstrates any interest in moving ahead rather than backwards, or in solving the problem rather than casting blame. I admit to being a historical accuracy pedant, but it really doesn't appear that anyone participating in this discussion is data-driven, nor do they check Fox News and Al Jazeera (or vice versa) before spouting whatever party line they happen to buy. Sorry folks, but I'm out of here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:14 PM

To Woolyhead
I would like to comment on a few of the points you have raised in your above posting.

Firstly the few thousands Israeli settlers who withdrew from Gaza were there in the first place as armed paramilitaries with their families.How arrogant they were.

They with the help of the Israeli army ruled a city of over a million people and made life there intolerable for the Palestinian Gazans.

The Palestinians were restricted to a handful of beaches .Water supplies were grabbed by the settlers and reduced for the Gazans.It was said that the settlerrs cattle were allowed more water than the Gazans.Roadblocks were set up on a permanent basis across Gaza making even short journeys last hours at a time.

But even more to the point it is simply not true that the Israelis left Gaza.

Even after the Settlers were withdrawn the Israelis still controlled most of the border and denied permission Gazans to enter or leave their city by land,sea or air. Its airport for example was wrecked by Israeli attacks several years ago. Vessels were denied entry to the Gazan waterfront and Palestinian fishing boats were attacked if they tried to fish off the coast. Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years and Israel has been pulling the noose ever tighter.

It has also launched raids and missiles against Gaza prior to the invasion causing death,injury and trauma on a massive scale .Medical aid was denied and Palestinian patients who tried to leave for urgent medical treatment were refused permission to leave. Many of these patients died.What sort of policy is that?


The Jewish people suffered the most appalling holocaust at the hands of the nazis during the war. Their suffering was caused by a nazi european ideology that was anti semitic andd savage to its core.

The Palestinian people were innocent of this dreadful crime against humanity.You know they were. They are still paying the price for a crime they did not commit as a people decades after the holocaust.

But I must say the mass murder being committed against the civilian population of Gaza who are being killed in their hundreds and maimed in their thousands reminds me of the nazi barbarism . The indiscrimiate missile and bomb attacks against schools and hospitals; the bombing of complete neighbourhoods and the callous indifference by young fighting men to the deaths of children in front of them is sick. Something is rotten in the state of Israel.

The tactic of mass bombing of civilians was introduced by the nazis at Guernica in Spain in 1936 and what we are seeing in Gaza is more of the same but with greater firepower.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Well, McGee.... The movies are filled with Native Americans shootin' up wagon trains and white women and all that but reality is that the white people killed or imprisoned (reservations) Native Americans more in porportion to what we are seein' in Gaza...

And, Mick... You are exactly correct... Israel is incapable of stopping itself... It has spun its retionale and now it is Hell bent on taking out Hamas even if it has to kill every last Palestinian in doing it... This is no longer about Hamas... It's about genocide...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 PM

The US has treated it's own indigenous people better

Let's not drift off into American hostory, but it is a releavnt parallel, and I think is one factor that may underlie how many Americans seem to see this tragic conflict.

I think that Bobert's comment there is a bit questionable though, looking at the period when the Native Americans were still capable of armed resistance. It'd be equally questionable to say the US treated them worse either. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:36 PM

"I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?" - Kendall

The supposed "HUGE" Jewish voting block you speak of if all were of voting age amounts to about 2.1% of the total population. And guess what Kendall the vast majority of them have a track record of voting Democrat.

Another one of your myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

With respect to both sides of this arguement, and realizing the generalist nature of my comment, it is time for an intervention. In fact it is long past time. The parties have no ability to resolve the issues, there is legitimacy to both sides, or at least they believe they have a rationale on both sides. An effective US policy would be to place ourselves between the combatants, declaring that the Palestinians have the right to a homeland, and the Israeli's have a right to the same and to exist. We should do so fully recognizing the legitimate aims of both, and the legitimate criticisms of both. I am hopeful that President Obama will use our foreign aid, diplomatic corps, and military to do just that. The causes of this are too shrouded by the mists of propaganda and time to do anything else.

You can't shoot missiles at someone, hide in churches and behind children, and expect to get sympathy. Neither can you wield an indiscrimate axe, slay innocents, and destroy their ability to live with the most basic requirements of life, and expect the world to see you as a just avenger. Enough already.

OK, I am off the "broad characterizations" soapbox and will return to the cave.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

In these times of interconnected economies and interests and where perceptions can mean alot to the international community, I'd say that Israel, if it hasn't lost this war yet, is on th evrge of loosing it... Israel isn't winning the hearts and minds of goo many folks these days... The story line has blown up in it's face and right now it Israel looks as if a country being lef by very mean people and, frankly, I don't see anything now that Israel can do to reverse the selg-inflicted wounds...

It should never have tried to starve the Palestians out in the first place... The US has treated it's own indiginous people better and we all know that treatment has not been very good...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Pretty clearly the IDF isn't trying to kill as many civilians as possible, though it must feel that way when your family has been wiped out by them. Just as it's pretty clear that Hamas aren't trying to kill as many Israelis as possible.

However it also seems pretty clear in both cases that they aren't particularly worried about killing civilians, and they aren't trying too hard to kill as few civilians as possible either.

The two sides in this conflict have a great deal in common, taking into account their different circumstances. Ehud Barak's comment when asked what he would have done if he had been a Palestinian was an honest and revealing one: "I would have joined a terrorist organization."   And of course back in the days of the British Mandate, that is precisely what his predecessors did.

In a real sense this has to be recognised for what it is - a civil war. And they are liable to be the worst wars of all, and typically religion is seen as defining the sides.

There's no point in demonising adversaries just because the brutal and horrible things they feel driven to do are different from the brutal and horrible things your own side feels driven to do. And no point in disguising the truth that they are indeed brutal and horrible things to do.

The important thing to realise in this internecine conflict is that these actions aren't just brutal and horrible, they are also self-defeating and futile.

Those hundreds of dead children aren't some tragic price to be paid for Israel's survival, or for Palestine's freedom. The innocent dead on both sides are the very thing that most threatens Israel's survival and Palestine's freedom.