BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:12 PM

" Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."

Not my choice of words, Juicy Brucie. Yours.

But Israel destroys the infrastructure for all occupants of Gaza, not just those firing puny rockets.

This not war. It is genocide. It is a final solution.

And if one is to speak of on the one hand Jews and on the other hand Muslims - addressing the USA of course -

A. Of which are there more in Congress and the Senate
B. Of which are there more in the Adminstration
C. Of which are there more in the media?


The 7 days war was a witty and robust put down of an oppressor of Israel. This is slaughter of the substantially defenceless, who have no homes, no infrastructure, no trade, no commerce, no way to feed themselves or even for aid to reach them. The only choice for Gazans is to struggle or die.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

And all I have to do is read the pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish press to get your opinion, obviously.

You now claim the IDF is" attacking over a small part of the border,",

so why would there be any problems with supplies or medical care? How do you account for all the destruction, when YOU claim they are attacking less than a fraction of a square mile? (less than 1/10th of a square mile, I guess)

Don, you are not stupid: If the IDF was targeting civilians, there would be tens to hundreds of thousand dead by now. As usual, the IDF is risking Israeli lives to keep the number of civilian casualties as low as possible- AND Hamas is trying to increase that number to the most it can, for propaganda reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

That's right BB. Do what you always do, and ignore pertinent factors to skew the case.

1,500,000 in Gaza, and how many square miles is that BB. Checking with google maps I make it 150 approximately. That works out at 10000 per square mile.

Not such a surprise then, that attacking over a small part of the border, the casualties are not in thousands, but then you KNEW that.

If I want to know what your opinion will be on any subject, all I have to do is look at the republican, gung ho, warmongering press outlets and there's your opinion, pre-digested.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?

There are also more Italians in NYC than in Rome.

Your comment about the "Jewish voting block" is offensive. Yeah, yeah, the Jews control the U.S. government.

The fact is there are about 6 million Jews in the United States. There are about 10 million Muslims.

If U.S. support for Israel was just about pandering to Jewish voters, it would be gone in a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

"Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone"."


Don T,

Where are the interviews with Israelis under daily rocket attack for years?

You claim the Israelis have such a powerful military, then post statments that prove otherwise ( by your standards):

The population of Gaza is 1.5 million (1,500,000). In 12 days of attacks, thousands of bombs dropped, not to metion morters, bullets, tanks, and artillary, the IDF has killed HOW MANY? and of that less than 700, HOW MANY were civilians? LESS THAN HALF.

So trying to kill everyone gets 350 killed in all this combat.

I think this proves that the interviews are biased, and that the IDF is making every possible effort to NOT kill civilians- UNLIKE HAMAS.

All civilian casualties are to be regretted- but Hamas bears the blame.

Or don't yopu believe eyewitness reports of Palestinians?

"The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

From this one incident what can we read? That depoends depends on whether what we read matches what actually happened.

Those greenhouses? Israel cut off the water supply to them, so that all the crops promptly died. Without water supplies greenhouses aren't of any use.   Subsequent to this happening the contents of the greenhouses, plastic sheets, pumps whatever, were taken away by Gaza people - you can call that looting or salvage according to how you want to spin the story(shades of the reporting about New Orleans after Katrina...)

See this story from an Israeli source back in 2005/ Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

You know Bill D, if you check back on my comments you will actually find that I have chosen NO side. I have said they are both bloody mad.

What does p**s me off, is the constant assertions that Israel is doing what any country under fire WOULD do, and therefor somehow justified in a campaign of mass murder. One MIGHT even suggest that Hamas is only doing what any oppressed and stifled minority WOULD do, and with no less justification.

The truth is BOTH ARE WRONG, and since neither is going to back down voluntarily until the other is destroyed(which in practical terms means Gaza will be devastated), it behoves the rest of us to STOP supporting mayhem and bloodshed, and MAKE them sit down and negotiate.

This will never happen while the US government pats Israel on the head and looks the other way.

BB, you should look and listen to the victims of these attacks, speaking from their shattered homes. They are so much more credible than your preferred pseudo-news channels.

Like the woman on BBC News at 6pm, who had just seen her husband die, and said "They are not going after Hamas, they are killing everyone".

Also the UN reports about 18 wounded civilians left to die after being ignored by the troops.

Anyone with military experience knows you DON'T leave hostiles to your rear, so they KNEW the house was full of civilians, and failed to offer support as they should have under international law.

I suppose that too is justifiable in retaliation for rocket attacks, most of which exploded in open fields, or scared a few goats?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Woolyhead
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

There is no right in these situations, but let me please point out a few facts that might make you think and that are never reported in the media, certainly I have never heard them in th UK.

When Israel left the land that is now Gaza to the people and withdrew 'Israelis' (if you want to read it as Jews), as was reported kicking & screaming in many cases, they left behind some of the most technologically advanced greenhouses in the world. What happended to them? Were they taken over & maintained & used to grow food not only for those citizens in the area, but also to export from Gaza City to bring wealth and jobs to the people of Gaza, which was the intention? No. They were destroyed completely. From this one incident what can we read? That the Palestinians have thier own technology and structure to build their own export markets or that they hate the Israelis & would simply do anything in their power to try to bring world sympathy to their own downtrodden selves? You make your own judgement on this one case alone, but there are others.

As so often happens I believe Golda Meier's comments have been taken out of context. Her attitude was this - how many people would condone sending out their own children with enough high explosives strapped to their bodies to not only kill themselves, but also to inflict as much damage to as many innocent civilians as possible? Yes women & children in the main is their aim, or why would they strike at supermarkets, family restaurants etc.

Are any of you interested in your family history & have been trying to compile family trees? If so I wonder how many of you have found whole parts of your family where the line ends with 'perished in the Holocaust' There are many of these in my family tree. I don't know exactly how many yet as I haven't had the heart to actually count them. This is not the first, nor will it probably be the last time that Jews are murdered wholesale for their beliefs. We are surely the most persecuted single group of people throughout history. Why? You go figure & come back to me with a sensible adult answer, because believe me I and I'm sure many of my fellow religionists are surely at a loss to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

Here's a link to another Daily Telegraph story today. (NB, the Daily Telegraph is very much a Conserative paper - no question of any "liberal bias" here)UN drivers killed during three-hour Gaza 'ceasefire':

Humanitarian shipments into Gaza were halted immediately after two forklift drivers died when the convoy of aid was targeted.

It came as Israel was subjected to unusually harsh criticism by two leading international agencies for orchestrating a level of violence in Gaza that has forced the collapse of essential services.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said civilians were dying because access to conflict zones was impossible during offensive operations.

Both bodies accused Israel of violations of international law.

The ICRC produced a graphic account of starving children stranded for days by the corpses of their parents at one bombed building in the Zeitoun refugee camp.

It said officials from its local partner, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, had tried to gain access to the area since it was shelled on Saturday. Soldiers in sniper positions overlooked the houses, which were isolated by a dirt berm.

Pierre Wettach, the ICRC regional director said, it was impossible for Israel to be unaware of the condition of the children when they were found during the lunchtime pause in fighting...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heric
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."


Telling and layered. He offered it up freely for wide circulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM

The UKs Daily Telegraph has carried a story about rescue workers in Gaza discovering a house with some 50 dead bodies inside.Apparently the extended family were ordered to gather together in the house on sunday but then the house was attacked with shellfire on monday.
There were still a a few survivors present but rescuers from the Red Crescent Society were only able to reach the scene today .The site was only 20 metres from Israeli positions and the paramedics had to flee when they fired upon by the Israelis .They had to leave some of the wounded behind.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

"I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite."


             It doesn't need a lobby. Just count the number of Jews in the US Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:59 AM

That is not my theory. I hear it from time to time, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

I give up.... some of you just simply had your side chosen before all this started, and thus interpret everything YOUR side does as **justified**.

"That mailman MUST have kicked my dog!"

"No...your dog is mean, and attacks anyone he 'thinks' is intruding in **HIS** space."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most telling comment so far:

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:21 AM

""I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?""

Just one Kendall. If you are going to keep a guard dog to stop nasty neighbours trespassing, it might be clever to keep it on a leash till you have it trained to behave.

Giving it free run of the yard may be nice for the animal, but it's hell on mailmen and newspaper boys.

I can't believe that the Jewish lobby in the US is powerful enough to bring down a government. Not quite.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:42 AM

Wow, heatherblether!!!

Just read the article in the Washington Post this morning about those civilans who were found dead in those houses...

In a rare move, the International Committee of the Red Cross is accusing Israel of "fail(ing) to meet its obligation under international humanatarian law to care for and evaculate the wounded"...

Apparentlt, the Israeli miliatry blocked ambulances from getting to theses people for ***4 days***, during which time as many of the 15 civilian corpses died with their kids and/or parents watching...

This is why I say that Israel is loosing this war... Just as the US's reputation has taken a nose-dive over Iraq, this will come back to haunt Israel...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Nearly a third of the deaths -- 30 percent -- are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed since the operation began, the Israeli military reported"


So, the Gazans have killed 30% civilians? Sounds like they have to be deliberatly targeting them, since when Israeli forces kill 30% civilians it is proof that they are....

But where are the demonstrations against Hamas, and the tear-jerking reports?

Oh, yeah, dead Jews don't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

I keep hearing a theory that the main reason we support Israel is because it would be political suicide to not support Israel. There is a huge Jewish voting block in this country, and in fact, there are more Jews in NYC than in Tel Aviv.

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

"The Current Discussion: What's the most likely outcome of the Gaza invasion? A wider war? A Hamas defeat? Just more of the same?

Rather than make a prediction, I would like to address the rampant moral confusion regarding the Israel-Hamas war. Here is something from an email sent out by Isaac Luria of J Street, a left-wing Jewish group that claims to be pro-Israel, but also reflects a lot of thinking by journalists and well-meaning people:

Israel has a special place in my heart. I lived there last year while my wife was studying to be a rabbi. But I recognize that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have a monopoly on right or wrong. While there is nothing "right" in raining rockets on Israeli families or dispatching suicide bombers, there is nothing "right" in punishing a million and a half already-suffering Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them.

The equation of the actions of Hamas and Israel is disgusting. But take Jews and Israel out of it. Imagine terrorist group A attacking country B, where A is trying to maximize civilian casualties on both sides and B is trying to minimize civilian casualties on both sides. What sort of moral judgment would have trouble distinguishing between the two?

The Palestinian victims of this war know better. Watch this video, broadcast on Palestinian TV, no less, of a girl whose 4-year-old sister died next to her in their home. She says, "Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he pleaded with Hamas "don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it." Hamas openly justifies using women and children as human shields, and is likely at this moment hiding and shooting at Israelis from hospitals and mosques.

By taking on Hamas, Israelis deserve the gratitude of decent people everywhere. More than that, by sending in troops to fight them on the ground, Israel is risking its precious soldiers to minimize Palestinian casualties. These soldiers risk becoming martyrs to human rights and the Geneva Convention because they are fighting in places where other countries, including the U.S., might have called in an artillery or air strike and been done with it. We should be proud of them and least have the decency to honor their sacrifice.

Finally, these soldiers are doing a service for humanity, not just for the Israelis. A defeat of Hamas is a defeat of it sponsor, Iran. It is no substitute for using economic, diplomatic, and - only if necessary - military means to prevent Iran, the world's primary terrorist regime, from going nuclear. But it should help concentrate minds regarding the necessity of doing so. The Israeli wars with Hamas and Hezbullah are only holding actions. The only way to give peace in the region real hope is to defeat the main source of war and terrorism, and that is the regime in Tehran."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

"But minutes after the three-hour truce was set to begin at 1 p.m., Israeli forces fired at militants in the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory.

The strikes came after militants targeted Israeli forces "almost immediately," Israeli Defense Ministry spokesman Peter Lerner said.

Lerner had previously said Israeli forces would respond to any aggression directed at them during the scheduled pause in activities in Gaza."





So Israel broke the truce, firing on militants- who just happened to have "targeted" the IDF first, after being warned....

Sounds like there is a bias in the wording of this report.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

This commentary by Michael Coren is from today's National Post.

*****
Imperfect, but no bully

By Michael Coren

So we had it again. The world putting on its selfrighteous coat so that it could hide its naked hypocrisy. Israel bad, violent and strong; Palestinians good, peaceful and weak. Instant demonstrations outside Israeli embassies and consulates when hundreds were killed in response to years of Hamas terror, yet not even a handful of protestors outside offices belonging to Sudan, Syria or Iran, where hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered.

Of course the innocent died in the past 13 days, but in the pursuit of the guilty. As opposed to Hamas and its campaign to mass murder only the innocent. Ask why both Egypt and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank did so little to counter Israel's actions, and may have given tacit or even active approval to the campaign. Because unlike Marxist Mary in Toronto and Jew-hating Jack in Montreal, they know the reality of the situation.

Israel left Gaza and prayed that peace would be established. Hamas launched its missiles into Israeli schools, homes and hospitals within hours. Supporters of the Palestinians argued that few Israelis were being killed so there shouldn't be complaints. Finally Israel responded. One of the reasons it took so long is that it was gathering intelligence so as to harm as few civilians as possible.
So why the lack of balance and the lies in the media? Any journalist who has worked in Israel and its neighbours in the past 20 years knows certain things that are seldom reported. Take, for example, the endearing hotel habits of the PLO. Reporters would stay at a grand venue just outside the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. When they came to pay their bill they would be told that they had been guests of free Palestine, but they would be given a receipt in case they might want to claim something on their expense account.

It doesn't help matters that Western journalists refer to Israeli soldiers as "Shlomo." It means Solomon but is spoken with an attempt at derisory generalization rather than admiration for wisdom. Yet in some ways the Israelis deserve it: They are dreadful at the propaganda game. Israeli officials keep journalists away from their dead and dying, while Arab officials tend to lead them by the hand to the killing fields.

Never was this more acute than with the case of Samir Kuntar, the Hezbollah "militant" on top of Hassan Nasrallah's "must free" list of Israeli prisoners. In 1979, he and his gang broke into the home of the Haran family in northern Israel. They took Danny Haran and his four-year-old son Anat to the beach and bashed the boy's brains out on the rocks while his father watched. They then shot the man to death. Smadar Haran, the mother, hid in a loft with the couple's two-year-old daughter. Holding her mouth over terrified Yael's mouth in an attempt to save her, Smadar smothered her daughter to death.
No photos were given to the press and this incident is never mentioned when prisoner exchange deals are discussed. Kuntar is now a celebrated guest of the Lebanese government and revered throughout Gaza. This will not be explained as we are told by journalists based in the Middle East that Israel refuses to compromise. Remember that hardly any of these journalists have apologized for describing the battle of Jenin in 2002 as "an unprecedented Israeli massacre." It was widely implied, even stated, that there were several hundreds if not thousands of dead Palestinian civilians.

It was soon revealed that only 56 Palestinians had been killed, most of them heavily armed. Israel had lost 23 soldiers, mainly because they had cleared the town house by house in an attempt to save innocent Palestinian lives.

Something similar is occurring in Gaza. It is staggering how quickly dead Hamas soldiers and policemen are stripped of their uniforms and transformed into social workers and poets. Detailed analyses of European media in the first seven days of the current conflict have shown that Israeli spokespeople were given a fraction of time compared to Palestinian representatives. And in countries such as Spain and Britain, the contempt for the Israeli position was almost palpable. I saw the cynicism of the Arab combatants and the fellow travelling credulity of Western reporters first-hand during the Hezbollah war in 2006, when the same bodies would appear again and again in different photos.

The nuances of journalistic language say a great deal. Reporters referred last week to "Americanmade" helicopters and F16s. Actually, the modifications made to these machines by the Israelis are enormous, but surely their place of origin is irrelevant. It is yet another way of making Israel appear the bully.

Which it isn't. It's an imperfect and besieged nation that was recreated as a Jewish homeland because the very countries now condemning it for its self-defence refused for 1,500 years to treat Jews as human beings. Just six months ago, I stood yards from where Israel is now trying to smash the Hamas military machine and asked an Israeli doctor who had been forcibly removed from Gaza by her own government if she was bitter. "No, no, no," she replied. "Not bitter, only resigned. Resigned to the fact that the fashion of turning on the Jews and judging them with a unique unfairness seems to come around every generation or so." The doctor then walked away to attend the funeral of a young mother killed by a Hamas terror attack. No journalists bothered to turn up.

Michael Coren appears every weeknight on the Michael Coren Show, 8 p.m., on CTS. www.michaelcoren.com

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2009/01/hamas_benefits_from_palestinia.html



Since there is no lack of justification here for Hamas, perhaps we can look at the other viewpoint...

"Israel had no choice but to defend itself. Many in the world's public opinion bash and accuse Israel of using disproportional and excessive force. This is a false accusation. It is Hamas which refuses to lay down its weapons and shows no respect for the very civilian population that it claims to represent. Hamas leaders have not shown their faces in public. They have disconnected themselves from their own people. They have stopped functioning and have cowardly taken shelters in hospitals and kindergartens, using women and children as human shields. "



"Israel is ready to stop the war immediately. Israel has no desire to reoccupy Gaza. Israel knows that it can't eliminate Hamas as a force. Israeli demands are simple, limited and modest: stop shelling Israeli towns and villages and stop smuggling into Gaza Iranian-made and supported weapons and rockets. If these two terms are met, a long and credible cease fire can be brokered within a day or two."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Rescuers today pulled out 12 bodies from a house smashed by shellfire.Alongside the bodies of the dead were 4 very young children too weak to stand who were waiting alongside their dead mothers.
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to meet its international obligations to the civilian populations which is another way of saying that war crimes are being committed in Gaza by the armed might of Israel.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

"Palestinians reported some two dozen airstrikes in Gaza on Thursday. One militant was killed and 10 wounded in Gaza City, while an airstrike in northern Gaza killed three members of a rocket-launching cell, Palestinian medical officials said. The attack took place about 150 yards from a hospital and wounded 12 bystanders. The Israeli army has repeatedly said militants use civilian areas for cover."

But then, rocket launchers are not military targets, are they?


"Of the 696 Palestinians killed since Dec. 27, some 350 were civilians, among them 130 children, according to Palestinian medical officials. "


"From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."



The actual numbers are bad enough (NOTE I use the PALESTINIAN numbers): Why do some here feel the need to lie about them? In a perfect world, NO civilians would be killed: But them, when rockets and morters are launched from schools and mosques, the counter-fire is likely to harm those that are being used as shields. That may be why the Geneva Conventions prohibit what Hamas has been doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

"Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em."


You are obviously getting figures from somewhere other than the news reports.

Pray tell how you decided on these to make up?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

To Bill
The evidence about Israel's role on behalf of the USA is plain to see in the vast amounts of military arms and equipment it receives. It also receives record breaking amounts of economic support from Washington.

By the end of the 20th century it had received some 100 billion dollars worth of economic supplies.

In 1981 the then president of the USA Ronald Reagan broke cover and declared
" with a combat hardened military,Israel is a force in the Middle East that actually is a benefit to us. If there was not Israel with that force we'd have to supply that with our own,so that this is not just altruism on our part"
Aruri , Naseer Dishonest Broker :The US Role in Israel And Palestine, South End Press 2003

It is also clear that from the very earliest beginnings that the Zionists in pre Israel and the state of Israel itself has taken the side of Imperialism against those in the Middle East who were trying to throw out their colonial masters in for example French owned Algeria where the deeply racist "colons" were later to form the backbone of the "Front National in France.

It was the 1967 war that clinched Israel's role as America's main military asset in the Middle East. The USA pumped military equipment into Israel and as the infamous Henry Kissinger explained about the 1973 war
"The United States saved Israel from collapse at the end of the first week by our arms supply....Some have claimed it was American strategy to produce a stalemate in the 1973 war.This is absolutely wrong .What we wanted was the most massive Arab defeat possible ...we sought to break up the Arab united front">
{MERIP Report 1981

There is agreat deal more about the role of the USA in supporting Israel and its worthwhile reminding ourselves about its resupplying of weapons to Israel during the invasion of Lebanon in 2006.

You describe this conflict as "idiocy" but as far as I can see it is the result of a longterm set of policies designed to dehumanise the people of Palestine and remove them from their homeland...but of course they wont go quietly and I dont think the strategic plan is going to work.
ifor
.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:20 PM

ummmmm..

"Why does America support Israel like it does?
Israel serves....etc...etc.."

This your personal opinion, I hope. Where DID you acquire the information as to why America thinks or acts as it does? Do you read all the collective minds of the administration?

For that matter, how does ANYONE get off suggesting that they know what the 'true' motives are of any side in this idiocy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

I stand by what I posted.
When the redcoats marched on Concord and Lexington a confrontation took place. Shots were fired and the redcoats retreated back to Boston. They were constantly fired upon from trees and boulders by the natives. They had no tactics to counter these methods and all they could do was to march as fast as they could back to Boston.
This is no myth.
Foreign help? Baron Von Steuben, a Prussian, trained Washington's army, but he had no army to add to the mix.
Washington himself held the Continental army together during the winter at Valley Forge by his own will.

The French, as I recall, entered the war late in the game and helped to trap the British under Cornwallis at Yorktown.

As you said, Teribus, the main weapon that Washington had was the fact that the people of England did not support their government in fighting the colonists. Their supply line was impossibly long, and they didn't have enough help from the loyalists here.To King George the third, Washington was a terrorist!
Sound familiar?

Old downeast proverb,
"The smallest dog can piss on the biggest building"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:19 PM

""Israel is NOT attacking the Palestinian People: It is attacking military targets in Gaza, whose government, Hamas, has been attacking Israel's civilian population with rockets.""

From the BBCs World News coverage, it would seem they're growing very short soldiers in Palestine these days.

Funny how there aren't any adult military men on show. And those wounded women sure looked fierce and dangerous.

Four hundred dead in a couple of days, and it don't seem that there are many Hamas militants among 'em.

Still you can't make an omelette without breaking a few egs, can you BB?


Hamas have been carpet bombing Israel for eight years, and they might as well have been throwing snowballs.

There's no right or wrong side in this. They are both bloody mad, and I wonder if the so-called civilised world is going to sit back like it did over Rwanda, and Darfur, and The Congo, and Uganda, and Zimbabwe, and on and on and on.

Of course, they're none of them important, because they have no purchasing power, so we can't make a profit out of them, so why bother, right?

A concerted effort by all concerned would be needed, but both sides COULD be brought to heel, but that would deprive some pretty big corporations of the money they make supplying Israel with the means to smash their neighbours.

AND THAT WOULD NEVER DO!!

I just hope the NEW president has more integrity than his chiselling, crooked predecessor. I really do.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

Fifteen Jewish Canadian women have today occupied the Israeli consulate in Toronto in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and as a protest against the war crimes being committed in that city by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

To Bill
Of course Israel has clout and plenty of it.

It has one of the most sophisticated armies in the world and is a highly militarised state.

It receives huge amount of military and economic aid every year from the USA and those Apache gunships and F16 warplanes were all manufactured by the US arms industry.

Without this massive support Israel could not keep attacking its neighbours.

Why does America support Israel like it does?

Israel serves an Imperial function for the USA.It is its attack dog in one of the most important economic regions in the world.

Of course as well as serving America's interests the Israeli state has plenty of interests of its own in terms of its own expansionist ,racist and religious ideas.After all it was founded as a zionist entity and there are many Israelis at the heart of the state who are itching to get rid of the Palestinians...permanently.

But the situation is not some static one. The Palestinians have not scattered to the four corners of the globe.The Palestinian birthrate is higher than the Israeli birthrate. Israel is no longer seen as the plucky little fighter by people across the world.It is rightly seen as a brutal and savage oppressor of all its opponents whether they are Lebanese civilians fleeing their homes in car convoys or young kids being blown up in a United Nations School in Gaza.

Israel now gets its support mainly from those blood soaked old war hawks in the Pentagon and in Downing Street and in similar places .

Israel was a notable supporter of apartheid era South Africa and could always be relied on to supply some uzis to any thuggish dictator in Latin America. It has a history of thuggish and brutal behaviour that goes back to its founding when its own terrorist gangs hung British soldiers with wire until they were dead.

But things are changing.It is finding it harder and harder to win these invasions and wars.Hezbollah gave it a bloody nose in 2006 and gained massive respect in the Middle East by doing so. The respect was earned by Hezbollah not because of its religious beliefs but because it was able to take on the invaders and beat them back.

I dont know what will happen in Gaza over the coming days and weeks but it wont be decent and it will be barbaric and Israel is going to finish this latest round an international pariah...not because of its religious beliefs but because it has gleefully made war on women and children and murdered them by the hundred ...and things are changing !
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

The point is...Israel is very much like the USA is in regard to the Native Americans...you can argue wrongs were done, you can claim that they took Texas illegally...you can 'argue' many things...but it is HERE.
Whether Israel 'should' exist is a fascinating debate...but it does, and it has clout .. and friends with more clout. An entire policy based on ridding the MidEast of Israel, (and damn who dies in the process) in not realistic.

But...the same goes for Israel. THEY must realize that accommodation MUST be made to those who feel they have no 'real' homeland. (and something other than accommodation defined solely BY Israel!)

hopeless? Sure seems like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:29 PM

"Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks."

Much though the Americans cling to this myth, those shooting from behind trees and rocks accomplished nothing, nor could they accomplish anything. What won the American Colonists their War of Independence was a conventional army allied to France who provided expertise, weapons, artillery and naval support. Another important factor in all this was complete and utter indifference - In the later stages as the war took on its global dimension, the British Government had bigger fish to fry elsewhere and basically couldn't give a rat's "you-know-what" about it's errant thirteen colonies. While Washington was losing battles and winning wars the British basicaly drove the Spanish and French from the Carribean, the French from India while bankrupting and ruining the Dutch and secured Britain's position in the Far East - Not such a bad trade-off really.

Yep CarolC what the Palestinians are demanding now was what was on offer under the UN proposal of 1947, the Jews at the time accepted that (i.e basically Israel as it now stands to more-or-less) while the Arabs did not. The Arabs opted for war and lost, odd thing about that CarolC is that that decision freely taken by the Arabs in 1947 was loaded with consequences, which unfortunately the Arabs of the region have never seemingly been able to fully accept. Israel is not going to go away, it is not going to quietly walk into the night, the Israelis are way passed that - If attacked, Israel will defend itself and it has every right to do so. Stop attacking Israel and formally acknowledge its right and the rights of its citizens to live in peace and all the violence would stop tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM

Heatherbleather, a brief glance at a map might be of value to you. Gaza is bordered on the southwest by Egypt and on the northeast, east and south by Israel. Any tanks and soldiers to the north are very damp.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

War. The ultimate failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

Well they have fled to UN Schools. Makes em easier to hit by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

You might hope it, but its rather more likely that some of them are going to get their satisfaction by seeking revenge against Israelis in general and Israeli sympathisers anywhere in the world.

This article in today's Guardian makes a lot of sense, it seems to me - Gaza after a Hamas rout will be an even greater threat to Israel:

"...from the rubble of Gaza, the attacks on Israel will surely resume. Hamas is too deeply rooted to disappear. New cells will arise, more filled with hatred and bent on revenge than ever. Already there are warnings of a return to suicide bombing, inside Israel and beyond. ...The great irony is that Israel may well decapitate Hamas - only to regret the passing of a Palestinian administration with sufficient stature to bring order..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Israel carried out 40 airstrikes Wednesday on targets including smuggling tunnels on the Gaza-Egypt border, Israel's chief army spokesman Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu said.

An Israeli combat officer, identified as Lt. Col. Amir, said troops neutralized hundreds of explosives devices, including booby-trapped houses.

Residents said 16 houses on the border were destroyed, with Israel presumably targeting buildings shielding tunnel entrances. Hamas had about 300 smuggling tunnels in the area before the offensive, and Israel has already destroyed dozens in repeated strikes.

Fida Kishta, an area resident, said she could hear sporadic shelling from F-16 planes.

"I feel like the ground is shaking when we hear the shelling. People are terrified," Kishta said.

In the evening, an Israeli warplane dropped leaflets over the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, urging residents to flee because of planned Israel strikes. Hamas has weapons smuggling tunnels in the area, and Israel has already destroyed dozens of them in airstrikes.

"Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area, between the Egyptian border until the beach road," the leaflet said, according a local U.N. official.

After the leaflets were dropped, about 5,000 fled to two U.N. schools turned into temporary shelters.

Despite the army's push, Gaza militants fired 14 rockets Wednesday, including hits on the cities of Beersheba and Ashkelon.

Rocket fire has fallen off somewhat as Israeli troops tighten their hold on Gaza, taking over open areas used to launch rockets, but Gaza residents say militants are still launching from heavily populated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

"....I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate...."

No...I can't either, but I'd hope they got smarter about HOW to get some satisfaction in this mess...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

The video which has been presented as proof that there were people in that school firing mortars when it was targeted by the IDF yesterday was in fact made in October 2007 - at a time when the school was deserted, having been evacuated because of an Israel military operation.

See this report carried by Israel National News - UNRWA: We Don't Allow Terrorists in UN Schools

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM

Yup,the Israeli cause is covered in the blood and gore of Palestinian women and kids.

Hundreds dead and thousands seriously wounded.

Israel has now ordered the thousands residents of Raffeh in southern Gaza out of their homes by tomorrow because they intend to attack the neighbourhood probably with artillery fire and gunships but possibly with the very big bombs.

Less than helpfully, however, the Israelis have not told them where to go.

On one side is the sealed border, on another is the sea with Israeli warships lobbing shells when they see fit and to the north there are Israeli tanks and soldiers.Above them the Apache helicopters and the F16s are firing at will.

Somehow, when the mass murder is completed to Israel's satisfaction I cannot see the surviving Palestinians becoming any more "moderate "or having any faith in the western governments who armed Israel to the teeth and allowed them to the slaughter.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!

If someone starts trouble against an obviously more powerful opponent, they may suffer out of proportion....no matter what their perceived 'cause!. In this conflict, that 'may' be one of the strategies to gain sympathy.

It makes no difference who has 'ultimate' right on their side..(does anyone think there is an 'ultimate' right anymore?)...*IF* you harass the big dog enough, it's going to try to bite you...you accept that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

True enough - but there for every one of those there are several hundred Palestinian kids.

The accusation about "using civilians as shields" is pretty hollow, since there appear to be no indications whatsoever that the IDF is ever deterred from firing or bombing by the presence of civilians.

No one would accept for a moment the IDF claim from any other terrorist organisation which tried to explain that civilian fatalities were the result of the other side "using civilians as shields".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Their tactics are similar to ours in the revolution. The colonists had no means to stand toe to toe with the redcoats, so they had to shoot from behind trees and rocks.
When Washington put an army together they did go face to face, and even though George lost nearly every battle he still won the war. We made the same mistakes in Viet Nam that the British made in America.
Voltaire was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

If Hamas really wants to kill Jews why don't they confront the Israeli army in open battle? It is certainly the act of a coward to shoot from cover and then hide behind their own women and children! The poor innocent people who die by Israel's hand also leave their blood on the hands of Hamas!
Hamas is quite willing to see it's own people slaughtered in hope that it will create outrage in the Arab world. The rockets were launched against Israel to effect that response and Israel has complied. There is more than enough blame to send leaders of both sides to Hell but they are not the ones to die! It is the innocent and helpless and this must stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.

It is now admitted that that video is two years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Re West Bank rockets:


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55638


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51022


But shhh... As long as they kill only Jews it is ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

A fair and reasonable assessment, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM

The way I read it is, Hamas is not being supported by the other Arab nations because they are extremists, and the other Arab governments are afraid of them. My suspicion is, they want to see the nut cases wiped out and they are willing to stand back and let Israel do it.

Right or wrong, as long as Israel is able to defend itself there will not be another Holocaust.

It is heart breaking to see a little child killed by an Israeli bomb, but that poor child is no deader than the Jewish ones killed by a Hamas rocket.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:07 AM

Hmmm... UN claims no militants at school.

"Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, disputed Israel's account of the bombardment of the northern Gaza school. But he said that if anyone could clear up the remaining uncertainty, "We would like them to come forward and be part of an impartial investigation.""



CNN shows video of morter firing fron the yard of the school in question.



Impartial????

But then, the UN has yet to enforce the 2006 Lebanon Ceasefire ( except on Israel.)

Waiting on the UN demanding that Hezboallh release the two Israeli soldiers....



Stil waiting.