BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are opposed to the attack on Gaza.

Like most everything else Guest Ifor says, that is a lie.

According the Israel Central Elections Committee report, the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties were disqualified because they specifically "call for armed conflict against Israel."

Other Arab parties that do not make such a call have not been disqualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to exclude to another set of inhabitants who had fled as refugees in the war. It would have been impossible to recognise such a breach of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Egypt pushes Hamas to accept truce
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:11:50 PM
By SALAH NASRAWI

Egyptian mediators pushed the militant Palestinian Hamas group to accept a truce proposal for the embattled Gaza Strip in talks Tuesday, while the U.N. secretary-general headed to the region to join the multitrack diplomatic efforts for a cease-fire.

U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon has backed the Egyptian truce proposal to halt the fighting, now in its third week. Before leaving New York for the Egyptian capital on Tuesday, he urged Israel and Hamas to accept a U.N. cease-fire resolution and allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

"To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," Ban told a news conference Monday. "Too many people have died." He said Hamas militants who have been firing rockets into southern Israel "must stop, they must look to the future of the Palestinian people."

The U.N. Security Council on Tuesday gave its full support to Ban after he briefed the council behind closed doors ahead of his week-long trip. All 15 members gave their strong backing to the secretary-general's diplomatic mission.

Israel's point man to the cease-fire talks, Defense Ministry official Amos Gilad, is also slated to come to Cairo Thursday, Israeli Defense Ministry officials said Tuesday. Officials had initially said Gilad would travel Wednesday, then changed the day to Thursday. Gilad had put off the trip for days, saying the time was not yet ripe.

Defense officials say that depending on what happens in Cairo, Israel will decide to move closer to a cease-fire or whether to launch a new, even tougher stage of its offensive. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing sensitive policy matters.

Ban won't be meeting Hamas officials and has no plans to go to Gaza during his trip, which will also include Jordan, Israel, the Palestinian-controlled West Bank, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria and Kuwait.

Tuesday's talks between Hamas and Egyptian officials in Cairo were the latest in intensive diplomatic efforts. In Damascus, the Turkish prime minister's top foreign policy adviser, Ahmet Davutoglu, met for the third time in two days with Hamas' exiled political leader, Khaled Mashaal, about truce proposals.

But so far, the push has yielded little public progress. A Palestinian official close to Hamas said the previous round of Egypt-Hamas talks on Sunday were "stormy."

During that session, Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, told Hamas to accept Egypt's truce proposal without amendments or else Hamas will be considered responsible for Israel's continuing offensive in Gaza, the Palestinian official said, speaking on condition of anonymity for discussing the closed-door talks.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-World-News\20090113\ML-Mideast-Diplomacy.xml&cat=world&subcat=&pageid=1

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:26 PM

"I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory"

Yer wrong BBruce, For 30 years the IRA nearly always telephoned warnings before setting off one of their bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST, guest ifor
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

"Two Israeli arab political parties have been banned from next month's election because they are oppsed to the attack on Gaza".

C Ham says the statement is a lie ...but the fact is it is true.

The full story can be read on the BBC News website but essentially both Balad and the UAL ,two democratic parties have been barred from next month's elections to the Israeli Knesset.

The move to ban both these Arab parties was led by two ultra nationalist Israeli parties called the National Union and Israel Beitein.These parties certainly did not want representatives from the Israeli Arab electorate standing in the Knesset next month and charging the state of Israel with war crimes in front of the world's cameras.

Both Israeli Arab parties have called for Israel to become a proper functioning democracy with full democratic rights for all its citizens but this conflicts with the Zionist policy of a theocratic Israel.Hence the banning!

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in Israel and their political representatives are treated with a mixture of loathing and disdain.

It is true there have been several large Israeli Arab protests against the war...protest supported by anti war Israelis and of course the warcriminals directing Israel's slaughter in Gaza would be very angry at anti war protests coming from inside Israel itself. again, hence the banning.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Nickhere,

That was from a posted article, not my own words,

I am glad to know that the IRA was a nation, or the duly elected government of one.


ifor, you miss the point: Calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of is usually defined as "treason" and often loses one the right to be an organized political party. Since the other "Arab" parties still exist, and continue to have seats in the Knesset, you need something more to make your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

McGrath,

When the UN recognised the existence of Israel it did not recognise the right of one set of inhabitants to drive out another set of inhabitants.

Yet that is what the Arab League attempted. Israel HAS an Arab population- Jordan does not have a Jewish population. Yet Jordan had control of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967- Please tell me where the Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank are????


Could they be amoung the 820,000 Jews from Arab nations that Israel resettled?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

To beardedbruce
It might be that the Israeli Arabs simply abhor the carnage that has been unleashed in the slaughterhouse of Gaza by the Israeli military.

I know we are all here on Mudcat because of our love of folk music but over there in Gaza the folk are being maimed and murdered by the thousands.

I should have added that the leader of one of those ultra nationalist parties Avigdor Lieberman has apparently called for his government to adopt the "Japanese solution "in Gaza referring to the dropping of the Hiroshima bomb.

His party is thought to come fourth in next month's election!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

ifor,

IMHO NO-ONE likes the present carnage in Gaza, but some of us have decided that it is preferable to the constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians ( that neither you nor the UN, nor any of those nations protesting Israel's actions ever even commented upon) for years upon end.

Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming.

Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others) there has to be a serious commitment to stopping Hamas from rearming.


Yet Hamas is still firing rockets at innocent civilians- and the UN is telling them to stop.

Egypt is telling them to stop.

Jordan is telling them to stop.

Iran and Syria ( the nations that violated the 2006 UN ceasefire to rearm Hezboallah) are the only ones NOT telling them to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

"constant rocket attacks upon innocent Israeli civilians"

So far 10 Israeli soldiers have died along with 3 civilians killed by rocket fire.

well over 900 Palestinians have died in this latest conflit & almost 4500 wounded, most of these are women & children

Where do you get off asking for that kind of unbalanced peace & security?


"Israel has stated this will end when Hamas stops firing rockets, and the world prevents Hamas from rearming"

Bullshit! Hamas has agreed to stop if Israel will pull out of Gaza & open the border.
Israel has not agreed to anything until it has leveled Gaza!


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

Wrong, Barry.

"Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.

This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:26 PM

Bobert (and other Hamas sympathizers):Do you believe it is unreasonable for Israel to insist that any cease-fire agreement MUST include guarantees that Hamas MUST stop firing rockets into Israeli neighborhoods and Hamas must agree to cease importing Syrian and Iranian weapons into Gaza?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Yes Doug & what will the Israeli's stop doing & what are they willing to give up?

BB, as for stockpiling cadavers & spilling buckets of blood, Israel shows that they'll consider the limitless suppy of Palestinians they kept & had under their feet & that they are willing to eraidicate the whole population just to prove their point. Then they can have Gaza, the West Bank 7 the rest of the OT to themselves. May their seed fail in the desert sands.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

As in the past, it is the Palestinians that have been asked to give & the Israeli's only to get & even then the Israeli's have not abided & have pushed for more. Again they will have more blood & will not stop. The US needs to stop it's backing & funding of Israel. Let Israel live on it's own in it's own neighborhood & see how they will then behave without their big stebrother, the US, to have their back. They might prove to then become a "good neighbor"? As it is I wouldn't want them in my backyard.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

Listen, Dougie... Have you seen these rockets??? They were on TV last week and look like they were made by some junior high school student for his C- science experiement... I mean, they are junk... You could make a better rocket, Dougie...

So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???

What do ya'll think we are??? Friggin' morons, 'er what???

I mean, lets get real here... This entire war is being fought between a desperate population using stone aged weapons verses a USA supplies and trained military... That's why the score is 1000-10 in favor of the Israels and of those 10, 6 were from friendly fire so the real score is 1000-4...

This isn't even a war... This is like when rich guys go to those hunt places where the game is trucked in to be shot... You know, like when Dick Cheney went out and shot and killed 70 some doves that were raised to be shot up by some rich-ass fat-ass white dude...

That is reality...

And now we are being fed alot of BS about how we should be afraid of Iran???

Give me a break...

This is like the junk that the inspectors found in Iraq... Remember the model airplane they showed us in the mad-dash-days... It was a friggin' hobby store remote... But they told US that Saddam was gonna put ant-trax in it and fly it over the US and kill everyone...

Hardy-har-har...

I'm sick of being lied to and I'm sick of Israel tonight...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Depends what you mean by "calling for the destruction of the nation one is a citizen of". It's quite common for people quite legitimately to wish for that to happen, and frequently they are successful.

The Scottish National Party in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, and the SDLP and Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland all call for a constitutional settlement in which the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would cease to exist. It's not long since the countries Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the German Democratic Republic and the USSR were wiped off the map.
......................

Justice is not determined by tit-for-tat. Ethnic cleansing is always criminal. Insofar as Jews were driven into exile in Israel by other countries, that was an injustice, and a peaceful settlement in the Middle East should seek to remedy it - but that does not mean that the exclusion of the exiled inhabitants of the country that is now Israel was or is legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

Bobert, I THANK you for that post. I AGREE with you!!! The US is so scared of being seen as Anti Semitic that we won't do a damn thing to stop this horror. I am not a Christian, but I say unto you, suffer the little children.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

I ain't anti-Semetic either, Sorch... But over the last week I have become very anti-Israel...

I think that the UN needs to renogotiate the deal that gave this land that we call Israel to European Jews... It clearly ain't workin' for anyone in the region... Heck, why not just give these folks Utah or Wyoming 'casue there ain't but a half a dozen or so folks in either of them states (lol)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 PM

From The Independent (London) for Wednesday 14th January:

At least three Palestinians in Gaza were shot dead yesterday after Israeli soldiers fired on a group of residents leaving their homes on orders from the military and waving white flags, according to testimony taken by the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem. The testimony was rejected by the military after what it said was a preliminary investigation....

...In Gaza, Munir Shafik al-Najar told B'Tselem that members of his extended family started trying to leave their homes after the Israeli army began demolishing buildings in the area of Kuza'a, close to the Israeli border with south-eastern Gaza. Mr Najar said the Israeli soldiers were using gunfire to signify that residents should leave, but then started shooting "indiscriminately".

He testified that his relative Rawhiya had stepped out of the family-owned building, one of whose walls had been destroyed by a bulldozer, expecting her family to follow, but she was shot. The military subsequently attacked another group escaping leaving two more of his relatives dead. The military said late last night that it had found the claim to be "without foundation".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

It's bad enough that the borders have been closed off so that the civilian population cannot flee the destruction raining down on them and now they can't flee their own housing when the walls are falling in on them. This is the same Nation whose people sought international justice & asylum from the hands of the Nazi's. They are now subjecting the people of Palestine, who are forced to live in the same getto situation, to the same treatment that brought such shame to a world that couldn't believe that such eveil could exist. The world is fast turning it's back on Israel & opening their eyes towards Palestine. Israel will bring it's own hell home.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

Yeah, Barry, I agree with everything you have said... Israel has lost this war in the hearts and minds of the international community...

Yeah, this may get some hardliners in Israel elected, much in the way that Bush used Iraq in the 2004 election, but this one is going to come back to haunt Israel and these hardliners...

I repeat: Israel has lost this war!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

BBRuce, I kinda guessed you'd pick me up on the use of the term 'nation' - I put my hands up , of course. But nations aside my point was that the Israelis aren't the only ones to warn they were going to blow something up in advance. Course this doesn't make it alright either. Looks nice, but could be done for several reasons, or mixture of same:

Looks good from PR point of view. In later years the IRA wanted to avoid civilian casualties as they look bad and don't help the cause. Blowing up property can be nearly as effective: in the 90s the IRA switched to economic targets as they realised the UK could always find plenty more cannon fodder while hurting them in the pocket really hurt them. After Canary Wharf was blown up a number of leading financial institutions threatened to quit and go elsewhere if security weren't guaranteed. And of course the UK couldn't guarantee no bomb would ever get through as no one can guarantee that except in the movies.

In Gaza motives are a bit different maybe. No point trying to hurt Gazans in the pocket, they're as poor as church mice anyway. But blow up their houses and terrorize them and they'll have to leave, as they'll have nothing to come home to - in fact, no homes to come home to. Houses can easily be rebuilt if Israel decides to move back in, more of a nuisance to get rid of the natives. Plus it's a collective punishment as all Palestinians are being held to account, for the actions of Islamic Jihad or Hamas. Ok, they voted for Hamas, but a majority of Israeli citizens voted for the hawks in Knesset. Does that justify Hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks? There has also been a crackdown on anti-war activists (Israeli arab or Jewish alike) in recent weeks in Israel. There are some people there who just don't want the violence to stop it seems, and not only on the Hamas side.

You say Hamas are doing wrong by their citizens. I suppose the Israelis are really doing their bit to alleviate their suffering as well, mainly by putting them out of their misery. Thats's really turning things on their head - blow them to hell and blame them for their own misfortune.

I think the problem many people have with this conflict is not that they support or condone Hamas but that it's so lopsided and out of all proportion. It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. Maybe the Israeli army wanted to recover its image after its defeat in Lebanon, but this is just shooting ducks in a barrel. Let them go and take on the Chinese or Russians - who at least have armies as advanced and well-equipped if much bigger. Nor will it stop the violence or rockets. It'll slow them down for a bit but it'll leave a sea of resentment and desperation that guarantee another intifada or whatever, and more heavy-handed responses from Israel (maybe that's what they want).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

BBRuce - "Since the UN promised ( 2006 Lebanon ceasefire terms) that Hezboallah would NOT be rearmed, and it was ( since it seems UN Ceasefires only apply to Israeli actions, not others)"

Erm, more like NO UN resolutions are being enforced against ANYONE (apart from Iraq)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM

The more the glorification of the murderous Hamas regime and their ilk, the less of a reason Israel has to go after them full steam, dressed as civilians as they are, unmindful of Geneva as they (Hamas) are, and fighting from the ranks of civilian sites as they are.

All the complaints about what Israel should or shouldn't do now doesn't do any good to solving the situation they find themselves in. I doubt that Israel has lost any friends among those who perceive it is an existential threat from a murderous regime (Hitler in rags was still Hitler, or do you shed a tear during the Bunker scene?).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:11 AM

If the elected government is "the murderous Hamas regime" then it surely is an apprentice one.

Its master must be the Israeli regime next door which has murdered tens of thousands over the past few decades.

Almost all the atrocities and destruction we have seen happen in Gaza have been done by Israel in the recent or fairly recent past.

The mass bombing with shells,missiles and huge bombs? Tick! Done it before in Lebanon 2006 and 1982.

The slaughtering of defenceless refugees in their camps?Tick! Thousands murdered under the direction of that old killer Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla [Beirut ] in 1982.

The bombing of refugees in United Nations facilities ? Tick.The Israeli airforce killed almost a hundred Palestinian women and children at Qana in 2006.

The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza .

The destruction of Universities,clinics and hospitals?Tick!The Israeli bombing of Lebanon's infrastructure in 2006 killed and mutilated thousandsof Lebanese civilians.

The use of assassination squads on the West Bank in recent years is a reminder that the Zionists came to power having hung two British soldiers on wire hooks to remind the British to get out of Palestine. The present Foreign Minister's father was a member of the terrorist Stern Gang that did it share of the killing back in 1948.

The list goes on but Israel can accurately be described as a murderous regime that specialises in the mass murder , humiliation and intimidation of the Palestinian people.

However,as it wades through a river of gore in Gaza things are going wrong for the killing machine.

As the Jewish socialist writer Isaac Deutscher wrote about Israel warned towards the end of his life in the late 1960s
"You have become the Prussians of the Middle East.Be careful you may triumph yourself to death">
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Ifor,

"The expulsion of refugees from their home? Tick ! Around 750000 Palestinians from their homes and land in the Nakba of 1948.They have never ben allowed to return .Some of these are now being terrorised in Gaza ."

Factual correction: 640,000 by ARAB figures. And I note you do not mention the 820,000 Arab JEWS driven from their homes?

Or the many Arab Moslims who stayed in Israel?

How many Jews are there in Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

"Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs" Bobert lie they ARE NOT nuclear.


Modern

During Operation Desert Storm (1991) there was a need for deep penetration bomb similar to the British weapons of World War II, but none of the NATO air forces had such a weapon, though the RAF possesses several of Barnes Wallis' bombs as museum pieces. As a stop-gap, some were developed rapidly over a period of 28 days, using old 8 inch (203 mm) artillery barrels as casings. These bombs weighed over two tons but carried only 647 lb of high explosive. They were laser-guided and were designated "Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)", and worked very effectively.

More recently the US has developed a series of custom made bombs to penetrate hardened or deeply buried structures:

Depth of Penetration Weapon Systems
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 1.8 m (6 ft) BLU-109 Penetrator GBU-10, GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator (AUP) GBU-15, GBU-24, GBU-27, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: 3.4 m (11 ft) BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead GBU-15, GBU-24, AGM-130
Penetration of reinforced concrete: more than 6 m (20 ft) BLU-113 Super Penetrator GBU-28, GBU-37


[edit] Fusing
The traditional fuse is the same as a classic armor-piercing bomb: a combination of timer and a sturdy dynamic propeller on the rear of the bomb. The fuse is armed when the bomb is released, and detonates when the propeller stops turning and the timer has expired.

Modern bunker busters may use the traditional fuse, but some also include a microphone and micro controller. The microphone listens, and the micro controller counts floors until the bomb breaks through the desired numbers of floors.


[edit] Missiles

A guided bomb strikes its target in a weapons testThe extra speed provided by a rocket motor enables greater penetration of a missile-mounted bunker buster warhead. To reach maximum penetration (Impact depth), the warhead may consist of a high density projectile only. Such a warhead carries more energy than a warhead with chemical explosives (kinetic energy of a projectile at hypervelocity).


[edit] Halts in production
The McAlester, Oklahoma production plant for the U.S. Military halted the production of 2,000 pound (900 kg) bunker buster bombs on two occasions. The first, on February 8, 2005, revealed that 17 employees who made the weapons had low blood oxygen levels because of their exposure to trinitrotoluene (TNT). Later in August, 34 workers were also found to be anemic. Production restarted on January 1, 2005 after a new ventilation system was installed, but halted again on March 2 of the same year when blood tests confirmed continued adverse effects to employee health from TNT exposure. [2]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

Let me see...

Bobert makes a fales statement.

I correct him

"Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

.......
BTW, bunker busters are presently made with TNT and surplus 8" cannon barrels. Easy enough to find out, if one wants to know the truth. "



Bobert repeats falsehood:

" Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

.....
So these junkers are being made in Iran??? And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"




I correct Bobert a second time:

"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

Bobert,

"And this is why Israel requested nuclear bunker buster bombs???"


Not nuclear- stop your lies! "




Bobert calls me a liar:

".
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

Stop your lies, BB... "





So, if one tells a lie repeatedly, but Bobert wants it to be true, it is true.

And repeating the truth makes one a liar, when Bobert disagrees with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:30 AM

The second bomb that was fitted with a GAM guidance kit was the 2000 kg (4500 lb) class BLU-113/B "bunker buster" penetrator warhead, which had been developed on a "crash" basis for Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (for details, see GBU-28/B Paveway III). The GAM-equipped BLU-113/B, also known as "GAM-113", was designated GBU-37/B. The first drop of a GBU-37/B from a B-2 occurred in May 1997, and it's possible that weapons of this type were operationally used in Afghanistan in 2001 (but reports are conflicting). The GBU-37/B is replaced by the GBU-28C/B, a development of the GBU-28/B laser-guided bomb with an improved warhead and additional GPS/INS guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:35 AM

"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.

"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949


We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

sorry...

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/index.html


Is there some reason that actually checking statements BEFORE blaming others that they are wrong is frowned upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:49 AM

Looking at my 08:37 post, I see that it is possibly excessively long.


Clones, please delete it and I will repost in smaller posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31


I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.
- Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:52 AM

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951


Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations.... It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

Well guest ifor, those Israeli Arabs, should thank their lucky stars that they did not exercise dissention in Gaza, the punishments inflicted there would have seen them thrown from the tops of high-rise buildings, or I suppose crucified if they were deemed to be "weakening the spirit of the people". By the bye they have not been banned there have been moves to bar them and the result of that appeal will not be known until Friday.

Usual emotive crap from Akenaton, historically a keeper of slaves, were they Jewish slaves? I must look that up. Ake if you are fighting a battle you fight it to win, there are no other considerations. I found it rather cynical the other night listening to a Prince of the Royal House of Saud complaining bitterly that the Israelis weren't fighting "by the rules" as they ought to - No mention at all of any obligation on the part of Hamas or the other Jihadist Groups having to do the same of course.

Now, if Israel and the IDF were indeed acting as Akenaton and others on this forum have suggested with regard to civilians, then by now there wouldn't be anybody alive in Gaza at all, the percentage of "civilians" killed still however amounts to around 0.03% of the population. Gaza has not been "flattened", there has been no "blanket bombing". Oh Akenaton there never was any confirmation of those thousands of South Ossetians killed by the Georgians was there?

And now we have a new "BOBERT FACT" used by Bobert to make his mind up about something:

"With every passing day I am less and less "sure" that Israel has a right to exist...

I mean, the Bush administration's own refusal to give Israel more bunker buster bombs, which BTW I believe are nuclear, really turned my thinking..."

There is no such thing Bobert as a "nuclear bunker busting bomb", the US did trials on the casings for them and could not get them to work, all a simple matter of record Bobert, it was all explained to Congress, who have to sign off on the US military budget and how it is spent. But I know that you will not look into that and "YOUR" nuclear bunker buster bomb will join the ranks of "the heads on sticks" and the "3000 Patriot missiles per day". Doesn't help your argument at all when it is so clearly based on lies and myth.

The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels, through which Hamas chose to smuggle arms instead of food or medical supplies. Now who was it needed which most and what did the "elected government" of the Palestinians in Gaza deliver??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

"They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews."

"...and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea."

This is the "party line" that the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza have been fed for 60+ years. Why bother getting educated, starting businesses, working hard or being responsible citizens? After all, as soon as the evil Jews are exterminated, the Arabs will move into their houses, take their diamonds and gold, and live like royalty. The fools have bought this BS for several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I hate it when the NYT has something reasonable to say...


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14friedman.html


Op-Ed Columnist
Israel's Goals in Gaza?
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: January 13, 2009

I have only one question about Israel's military operation in Gaza: What is the goal? Is it the education of Hamas or the eradication of Hamas? I hope that it's the education of Hamas. Let me explain why.

I was one of the few people who argued back in 2006 that Israel actually won the war in Lebanon started by Hezbollah. You need to study that war and its aftermath to understand Gaza and how it is part of a new strategic ballgame in the Arab-Israel arena, which will demand of the Obama team a new approach.

What Hezbollah did in 2006 — in launching an unprovoked war across the U.N.-recognized Israel-Lebanon border, after Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon — was to both upend Israel's longstanding peace strategy and to unveil a new phase in the Hezbollah-Iran war strategy against Israel.

There have always been two camps in Israel when it comes to the logic of peace, notes Gidi Grinstein, president of the Israeli think tank, the Reut Institute: One camp says that all the problems Israel faces from the Palestinians or Lebanese emanate from occupying their territories. "Therefore, the fundamental problem is staying — and the fundamental remedy is leaving," says Grinstein.

The other camp argues that Israel's Arab foes are implacably hostile and leaving would only invite more hostility. Therefore, at least when it comes to the Palestinians, Israel needs to control their territories indefinitely. Since the mid-1990s, the first camp has dominated Israeli thinking. This led to the negotiated and unilateral withdrawals from the West Bank, Lebanon and Gaza.

( more in article- I will have to give them credit for a reasonable viewpoint!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:57 PM

Nickhere,

"It was also planned for months and is not just some sort of knee jerk reaction to a handful of rockets in November. "


1. Any competant military will have plans for likely actions. Even the US has them, for such things as invading Canada...

2. "a handful of rockets in November" ???? How about 6000 rockets and morter shells over two years? Probably about 25 times what Israel is using on Gaza each day (60 sorties/4 bombs max). So Israel should keep it up another 6 days, for parity??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

Oh you little liar T.    I said "hundreds of Ossetians"

And what verification would you accept anyway?...The Russians? The Ossetians?....Even the Georgians and their mad leader have admitted to the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

From what I hear:

a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

The old threads are down, so I can't find Teribus's support for Georgia against Russian "agression".

What a hypocrit!!

The US State dept were finally forced to admit the hostilities were started by Georgia.link

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

Actually,

D. The population of Gaza is about 1.5 million ( not 1 million)



300 children killed in the entire population of 1.5 million- If Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, they really need a lot more training.

The hoods in DC kill more than that a year, out of half that population.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

"The bunker busters if supplied would in fact reduce the likely-hood of "civilian" casualties if used against deep bunkers and would definitely be useful in the destruction of the supply tunnels"

Not when they are dropped on houses in densely populated areas, as hsa been going on.

Yes, Gaza is being flatttened.

Not 30o children BB
Now over 1000 killed most civilians, in densly civilian populated areas. Over 5000 now wounded with no way to access medical aid & supplies (againt international law & the Geneva Conventions). !0 daed Israeli soldiers. Who do I feel for. Most are women & children!
Where is your humanity? It's so very sad that a people can turn so utterly vicious & blind towards the sufferings of another when they feel so rightious, as did the Nazi's. Israel will pay in the end, as did Germany. Yes BB, I put Israel on the same gutteral level as Nazi Germany & those that supported Germany's cruel aggression heap upon the Jews back then & is exactlly the same as Israel is now heaping upon the Palestinians

Bring in all the history you want, history does not give any excuses to commit mass murder & ethnic cleansing!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:29 PM

No, Israel isn't trying to kill children. It's just not trying too hard not to kill them.

Much the same as Hamas with their rockets, but on a much much larger scale, not because Hamas is less ruthless or Israel more ruthless, but because that's how the firepower is distributed.

There really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals. Which is a definition of terrorism. Not because they are particularly wicked, it's a way of thinking grounded on historical circumstances. A self destructive way of thinking.
...............................

The suggestion that the expulsion of Jews from other countries in the Middle East retrospectively justified the forced exile of Arabs from what became Israel is pretty suspect. Turn it around, and it seems to imply that the expulsion of those Jewish populations was justified by what had happened in Israel.

More honest to recognise that both these actions were criminal - another example of how "there really isn't too much difference between the two sides when it comes to willingness to cause suffering and death among civilians as a way of achieving political goals."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM

First of all, BB... You obviuosly are obsessed... Like how come if I post one thing you have to post 3000 posts afterwards??? That is ibsession and you need to seek out mental health...

While y6ou are there ask them why it is you believe everything that the Bush administration **********tells********** you... You are not only obsesses but you are such a cheerleader that you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on your obsessed ass...

What makes you the authority on what lies the Bush administration tells are woprthy of false belief... You don't have a clue about what weapons the US has or is sharing with Isreal... If you do then...

...prove it!!! If not, quit callin' folks liars....

You are nothing but a "true believer" blowhard...

******Prove****** yer assertions from here out... You ask that of me all the time... I'm askin' nothin' more of you... If you can't then quit with the liar crap and shut the fu*k up!!!

Have a nice day,

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM

Now this post I found quite ludicrous

From what Guest,JTT hears:

"a) Thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by Hamas
a1) However, these thousands of rockets were mostly home-made and not awfully lethal"

Eh JTT does that observation of yours mean that these rockets are only capable of "slightly" killing a person?? Unguided or controlled, fired indiscriminately at civilian centres of population they are mean to kill Israeli civilians the fact that they have not been terribly successful is not from the want of trying.

b) The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that journalists should be allowed into Gaza
b1) However, the Government of Israel has refused to allow journalists in

Can you give us any other instances of countries, regimes or armies engaged in military operations who take their direction from their legal systems?? Judging MSM over the past 8 years I wouldn't allow the prats in either.

c) A third of all the 1,000+ dead are children

And who deliberately put them in harms way Guest,JTT?? Who was it ended the "cease-fire"??

d) Gaza has a population of a million crammed into an area around the size of the Aran Islands

1.5 million as has been pointed out

e) There are other methods of making people stop hating you than killing them

While they are doing their best to kill you?? And have declared openly that they will never recognise your right to live a peaceful life?? It is Hamas that has to change politically before any negotiations that would lead to peace can take place.