BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM

these people that are doing this, it's like hitler and the Nazi Party, the jews just want to wipe out the arabs, they believe in killing for killing sake, they don't care about the arabs that live there, the Jews aren't intrested about peace, and so are te people that support them ie some Americans.

so it's about time that the west told the Israelies to stop now or the west shout either put sankstions on Israel.

or are western leaders just cowards and allow this killing to go on, by both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM

Rig .... I remember the population argument you presented about a year ago which I argued against .... well, I have to say I am somewhat convinced ... A Syrian (a medical doctor btw) friend of mine happens to believe the biggest issue with the mideast is over population ...... the old agrarian way of life has become non resourceful for the small family farmer who cannot provide for themselves ... they are now living in a state of continual unemploymnent in in urban overcrowded communities with the population ever expanding ... thus a mass attitude of frustration, evolving to hatred, fanaticism (politically / religiously) fueled on by a hope of never ending hoplessness and despair.

just thought I'd throw this into the pile.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

I think it could be rephrased to "there will be peace in our world when we start loving our children more than we hate our neigbours"

Ahhh but it was not phrased that way.

In the actual quote, there is accusation and blame that Palestine is at fault. An Israeli implication that Palestine prefers hating Israel to loving it's own children.

There is nothing in that statement that encourages peace or understanding. It is a threat.

We will let you have peace when we are satisfied that you do not hate us. We will stop killing your children when we are satisfied that you do not hate us.

What proof of satisfaction? That Paelstinians move out of the land. Israelis want it and they do not want it polluted by Palestines and their different culture and oh so wrong religion.

That is all it boils down to.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:35 AM

I'm aware of Golda's quote not being phrased that way I presented VT .... I just rephrased with a more universal slant to it ... personally, I'm not pointing fingers at any side in this conflict ... I just want to see peace, the world over .... pointing fingers it not the solution ... peace can be only reached with tolerance, understanding, and humanity ... pointing fingers, bringing up the past is not a solution, it just continues the madness.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

You are right Bill. I am not really taking sides either. Both are in the wrong in ways I cannot comprehend. But I do get miffed about bullies and that is what Israel looks like to me, especially with big brother US standing menacingly in the background.

Maybe it is because I am an American living in UK. When I see my native country in such uncomplimentary light, it hurts me and I feel the need to show that Americans individually are what the world perceives us collectievly to be.

Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

Reading some of these threads ... watching the news, reading the news, all one hears are reasons of speculation, one sided solutions, politiks, religion, the official stand of the U.S. government, the official stand of the France, Iran's official stand .... all I see is finger pointing, hatred, the loss of lives and madness ..... I dunno.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:50 AM

"Gonna shrug off that weight now. At least in this thread."

good one .... me too VT

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM

There will be peace in the Middle East when the Israeli government loves Israeli children more than it loves subjugating other peoples and taking their land by conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

i agree

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Interestingly, just a couple of threads away as I post, is a thread about an IRA hunger striker.

I'm not terribly pro-IRA - indeed I'm rather anti-IRA - but it moved me to wonder whether IRA-like tactics including hunger strikes might gain Gazans their freedom from Israel - gain them control of their own borders, their own infrastructure, and permit their economy to sustain them better than it is now permitted to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

Why would hunger strikes help? One more dead Palestinian is of no consequence to the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

This may not be the thread for this but gonna say it anyway. While I don't condone some IRA tactics, I fully understand why they were pressed into some of them.

Another group of people oppressed and backed into a corner by a big mucking bully.

I am always gonna go with the underdog. Cannot help it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM

Golda Meir was an American citizen (family from the Ukraine) who supported Zionism and became a leader in the Israeli resettlement. She moved with her husband to the Palestinian area in 1921. Periodically she returned to raise money and agitate for Zionism. In 1948 she was a signator on the Israeli declaration of independence, and later rose to be prime minister.

Always a Zionist, and supported of Israeli domination in the Palestinian region, she helped institute policies that guaranteed conflict that will continue for many years to come.

Now it is the Palestinian Muslims and Christians who need to replace their homeland of more that 1000 years. Israel will never permit the existence of a truly independent Palestinian state.

I see no hope for the Palestinians; they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands or acceptance of political and social dominance by the Israeli theocratic state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

How many years has mankind gone without a war being waged somewhere? How many years of peace has mankind enjoyed? Do the math. War is the natural state of being. The strong devour the weak, and it has always been so. We are not capable of governing ourselves. The only creatures on earth that engage in warfare are humans and Chimpanzees. We share 98% of our genes.Go figure.
Cynical? perhaps. Realistic? Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

Indeed, VT - but why did IRA terrorism and suicides work for the IRA but seem hopeless for Gazans? CarolC has come up with one answer. If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

England didn't fail in Ireland Richard because they hesitated. They accepted they could never defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army, there is a big difference. That is why they asked to speak to their leaders to resolve THEIR problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I agree with that Richard and with Kendall's views
Our govt was instrumental in robbing the Palestinians and bringing the Israeli state into being, yet only 500 protested Israel's action in London today. We are worse than animals, we rationalise the murder of children, then turn our faces away.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

Q wrote "they face dispersal to unfamiliar lands"
Much of Canada was settled by refugees of some type. They have prospered here and produced generations of very valued citizens whom we would be much the worse of without. In Gaza there are still refugees living in camps after 60 years with descendants of five or more generations.
Why does the world refuse to absorb them? Would the culture of neighbouring Arab lands be that unfamiliar? I offer no excuse for Isreal but the actions of other countries refusing to help these poor souls should be viewed with contempt as well.
Enough blame and hate! It's time to find a solution and overthrowing Isreal has no potential in these peoples lifetime!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

Most in North America, as in many other parts of the world, enjoy prosperity today because they displaced other peoples from lands they now enjoy, killed them with superior arms, reducing them to living in reserves....somewhat like todays refuge camps, an marginilizing their success, livlihood and culture to this very day.

"Many people love in themselves what they hate in others"
E. F. Schumacher

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

"Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation, or creed~   Bertrand Russell

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

So, Fife, why was England unable to "defeat the Provisional Irish Republican Army" while Israel can defeat Hamas and has at least once defeated although not entirely exterminated the Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

I don't understand either side of this apparently two-sided conflict, which has been in play all my long life.

I can only surmise, therefore, that the two-sided picture is false, and that a third, and possibly a fourth and fifth party, are energetically and continuously involved in perpetuating the hatred.

I have known young people from Israel and SYria, each firmly raised in their cultures, who came to America and lived in complete harmony with each other.

IF the whole concepts of "racial types" and "mandatory cultural beliefs" were recognized as the horseshit they are, things might move along; but as long as some voices are perpetually using these phony categories to insist on us-versus-them, under-versus-over, us-right-them-wrong dichotomies, which are complete distortions of the ground truth involved, the tribulations will persist.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

"If one extrapolates, England failed in Ireland because it hesitated. It was not prepared to render all Irish life extinct in the face of non-compliance. On the face of it it seems that that is exactly what Israel is prepared to do in Gaza."

Aye, point well made.

England had a respectable facade to maintain...

And we're still living under those utterly false cultural illusions today... While of course still participating in the same old bollox (check Blair and the plagiarised Phd. thesis fiasco!).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

They are not there yet Richard, I imagine there is more to come !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Folkiedave: Israel doesn't really purchase US military equipment out of its own budget. Rather, the US gives Israel an "aid package" of what amounts to credits, spendable only in the US. They cannot buy a French or Swedish jet with it, for example, even if they can get better value. Almost all military aid programs are actually ways to subsidize domestic industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

I guess Israel will give "their" land back to the Palestinians on the same day that America returns the land they stole,swindled,and took by brute force and terror from the original inhabitants ( I believe they were called "Red Indians" ).In the meantime, keep your eyes on Iran, and never forget that Armageddon is a real place ......in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

The Palestinians will consider themselves very lucky if Israel will simply allow them to remain on the land they currently have. Of course, the government of Israel has no intention of letting them do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Well CarolC, if Isreal totally withdraws to within its pre 1967 borders and agrees to remain there by treaty with the Palestinians will that resolve the problem? Would the Palestinians in turn promise
never again to launch missles at Isreal? Would the other Arab states agree to this as well? At some point in time claims of land entitlement must be forgotten, at least long after the people who lived on those lands are dead and gone. If it would bring peace I think it is time to start. However I fear that mutiual hatred will prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

How in the name of sanity do you reach anyone, let alone any group that has been indoctrinated into national or religious elitism?

One would think in this day and age, where so much information is available and friendships are being forged across cultures and across the globe that we would be witnessing an evolution of collective human psyche.

Will we always be barbarians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:40 PM

You may be right Fife. Incidentally, does your name refer to a musical instrument and will you be joining and seeing us upstairs?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

My late father was a well known respected player, I on the otherhand try !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Comparison with IRA is false.
The political goal of IRA was unification of the 6 northern counties with the Irish Republic.
That goal could, and can be, achieved by persuading 51% to vote for it.
The Nationalists have now become the majority population in the North.
Soon they will be the majority of voting age.
Then a united Ireland will be achieved.
All the IRA violence achieved nothing but decades of death and poverty.
It did not bring unification one day sooner.

Sinn Fein have achieved considerable electoral success since ending the violence.
They could have done that 30 years ago.
The violent fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Er - Keith, it was violence that removed the English from the other counties was it not? An act of armed insurrection in and around 1922 if I recollect. It was violence that got the English to talk to the IRA leaders, was it not?

Why does it work in Ireland and not the Eastern Mediterranean?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

Read the White Paper of 1939, the british placed themselves at odds with Israel. To make things worse, the situation in europe demanded a new Home for the Jews, as european Jewry had nowhere to run to. While the british were making "peace" with the germans, they were declaring war against all of Israel. And even after the german intentions became apparent and britain sank into the depths of war, the british still refused to grant Jewish refugees entrance into their Homeland.

The british sided with the arabs in Israel, that were led by the mufti of Jerusalem. It is known that this leader had ties with the germans, and that he urged hitler to kill all the Jews, pleading as well with the germans and other arab leaders to help him massacre all the Jews of the middle east.

When the british sided with these people, it became apparent to everyone that they were the enemy of Israel. Therefore the Jews had to wage war against the british.

But Jews have always been a weak and divided people, since they have spread themselves across borders and have lived as minorities amongst the vast majorities. And Jews have consistently betrayed themselves, since they have sworn their loyalties to nearly every foreign land.

If all the Jews lived in one country, then at least they could defend themselves by defending that country. But the Jews have been scattered upon the face of the earth, and thus they have betrayed themselves with every ounce of their strength.

The british policy was almost as destructive as that of the nazis, but it was the germans that did the actual killing. Therefore the germans were Israel's number one enemy. Since england was fighting germany, the Jews were faced with a big dilemma.

By fighting england, they would be helping germany, but by fighting germany they would be helping the british. Yet the Jews of Israel were weak anyhow, and whatever they did they wouldn't have had much of an affect on the greater conflict. Therefore they were best off joining the british in order gain a foothold into europe so that they could rescue their people, and then defy the british so they could attempt to bring their people to Israel. And in Israel they were best suited with a policy of defiance to the british, because england had enough problems to deal with that it should have to invest too much effort in Israel. This gave Israel an advantage, because the british didn't have the strength to rule over Israel.

But the Jews are also foolishly stubborn, in that they stick to their ideals and fight for their opinions even when their thoughts have no merit. And the Jews preserve their loyalties and keep their promises even when this is treacherous to themselves and traitorous to each other. So most of the Jews in Israel and especially in America treated the british as friends and the arabs as equals. Therefore they cooperated with the british even against their own people, leaving their brothers to die and betraying their own neighbors.

Although there were some that characterized the will of Israel, and this sentiment was embodied by the Irgun and Lehi, and sometimes aided by the Haganah. During and after the war (WWII) these people fought to save their brothers in europe and return them to safety in Israel. And after the war, they fought the british, contributing greatly to the liberation of Israel.

Yet these groups were like the Maccabees of earlier days, for while they succeeded in their intentions, they have failed in their success, because the british occupation has been replaced with that of the Americans. They knew Israel had to be liberated, but they did not understand what for.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

If your next door Neigborough kept throwing bricks into your garden injuring you family or even killing them, then you would get pissed off & after a while throw the lot back & more! This is what is happening!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

Yes skipy, and if those living in your garden on your property were doing it, you would get pissed off too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

If your neighbor took your groves and pastures and locked you into a shanty, dependent on aid agencies for bread, in frustration you would throw bricks or whatever at the 'neighbor'; the garden that was yours has been taken from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

Guest,Alan: cut and pasting information from the Etzel/Irgun website is fine, as long as you are aware that Irgun and the Stern Gang (Lehi) perpetrated most of the atrocities (such as the King David Hotel bombing and the De'ir Yassin massacre) that are pointed to 60 years later as examples of why the Palestinians can never trust the Israelis and which were condemned at the time by both the Haganah and the World Zionist Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

This must be one of the tests Joe Biden was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

I doubt there is a month goes by we aren't subjected to a film or programme recalling what was done against the Jews, yes they want our tears and understanding, but how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people ? Maybe they feel happy enough to do so knowing that America will back them, then again many feel they own America.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

"how can a people who suffered go out and do the same to other people?"

Right guest Alan, the "Jews" launched thousands of rockets at the Nazi government of Germany, that's why they were murdered by them. If you're trying to find analogies try using appropriate ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

In most civilised countries, a certain degree of violence is considered acceptable in one's defence. This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding.

I do not believe that you could make a case for responding to a slap in the face, by beating your attacker to death with a baseball bat, much less by shooting him.

This is precisely what Israel is doing.

In addition (and this does seem to have been missed by almost every commentator), Hamas, as a party, is the legitimately elected government of Palestine, and this means that Israel has initiated an undeclared WAR against a neighbouring sovereign state, using the massive military advantage gifted to them by a succession of over indulgent US governments.

There does not seem to be much strong evidence that the ruling Hamas Party is behind the rocket attacks, but rather that it is a splinter group of militants.

Maybe the way forward is for Israel and Palestine to co-operate in removing the culprits, rather that continuing the hate campaign they seem to be locked into.

A good start would be for Israel to offer the prospect of opening the border, and allowing trade, in return for co-operation in defusing the rocket threat. Gaza is nothing more than a very dangerous prison camp at the moment.

UN please note.

One last thought. For God's sake stop Tony Bloody Blair from sticking his big nose in, or this will go on for decades more.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

bobad, I imagine they will get their just rewards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM

This morning at Fremont Baptist, my wife and I did the "Special Music"; after singing the Chinese New Year hymn "The Grace of God Unbounded Is" (MIDI), we sang Peter Yarrow's Hanukkah song "Light One Candle", dedicating it in particular to our sisters and brothers in the Gaza Baptist Church, who, as my wife put it, are having a particularly unpleasant weekend.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:43 PM

"This level is usually referred to as "reasonable force", and is generally defined as force lesser than, or equal to, that to which one is responding."

Which is where the "eye for an eye" principle came in. What Israel is doing in Gaza is in clear breach of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:01 PM

That last one (08:43 PM ) was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

The Israelis tried politely asking Hamas to refrain from launching missiles into Israel but that tactic turned out to not be effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM

This is not true. The Israelis are not punishing Gazans for 12 dead Israelis. They are implementing a military operation to stop further rocket launches, or more, according to whatever your preferences or speculations may be. The damage and human suffering must be weighed against the goals, stated or real, not against the number of previously killed Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM

Quebec has a separatist party with a goal to eventually split off from Canada and start their own nation. They don't shoot rockets into Ontario and try to kill people to try and accomplish this - as if somehow this strategy would win sympathy of intelligent people? That's the problem - we're all stupid. It appears that most of the world thinks Hamas should be allowed to send rockets into Israel anytime they want- that's perfectly fine. Somehow this strategy is Kosher for all Jew haters. What's really to worry about a few dead and terrified Jews?
There is a lot more than this than just Hamas and Gaza trouble- it is the goal of the Jihadists dream for a renewal of a complete fundamentalist Islamic Middle East- no room for Jews, weterners or other occupiers- code word for anyone except Arab Islamists. The children are being raised to grow up and become dead martyrs for their cause. This is the reality of what Israel and what Jews are facing. Complete lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:25 PM

Sorry bobad I was referring to the eye for an eye subject, not your comment.