BS: Atheists and Ghosts

Subject: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM

Not trolling - just wondering - do atheists believe in ghosts?

Have any atheists experienced "ghostly" apparitions, and if so, how do they explain them?

How about atheists and the supernatural and the paranormal?

'Catters?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

I suspect atheists do not believe in ghosts. I doubt if they're entertained by science fiction movies either.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

Would the converse be true, ie. if one is a theist does it follow that he/she would believe in ghosts and the paranormal?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

Do ghosts believe in theists?
If god became an atheist would s/he disappear?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

You will need to actually see (or encounter) a ghost. Then you will probably tend to believe in them. Whether you're an atheist or not doesn't necessarily have much bearing on the matter, though I suppose the average atheist is more likely to search around for any way he can convince himself it wasn't a ghost.

I bet there are some religious people who don't believe in ghosts too.

There are many ways of explaining a ghostly apparition, and people will usually latch onto whichever explanation suits their previous views on the matter...if those views still seem tenable.

The real question is: Do ghosts believe in atheists? Or are they in a state of denial? Or do they even care?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

Wouldn't a ghost be a manifestation or evidence of a soul? And wouldn't a soul be generated/created by a higher power/God ?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

A "ghost" can emanate from a person's own brain, ever hear of hallucinations.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

What? Why?

"Souls"--a loaded word, better defined as spiritual beings who run bodies, IMHO--can be ghosts or not, depending on their predilections and degree of confusion.

I fail to see why their existence would argue for monotheism, anymore than the existence of scads of carrots argues for the existence of one freat big Arche-Carrot. A PLatonic Carrot!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Wesley - It might. But why does the existence of souls necessarily indicate the presence of a deity?

If we can imagine many individual beings in bodies, but no God...which is what the atheist imagines...then why can we not imagine many individual non-physical souls also, but no God?

I see no reason at all why non-physical souls MUST have come from a creating deity. Could not evolution occur in spirit as well as in matter? Might not one be a reflection of the other, but in a different frequency spectrum, that's all?

I'm not saying that souls don't come from a God, I'm just saying that the one does not in any way obligate the presence of the other.

A ghost might be a manifestation of a soul. It also might be some remaining psychic residue from a bundle of strong emotion (which is what ghosts usually seem to be), and not a soul at all. It might, in effect, be an echo of the past...not an ordinary aural echo...a psychic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I don't know about ghosts but I'm one atheist who can still scare himself silly watching scary movies, reading scary books, or just listening to strange noises in old houses.

Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you have to give up all the fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

On the other side - If there is no higher power/God could ghosts/souls exist? So how would ghosts/souls create themselves? How would they come into existance?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Becca72
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

I'm an agnostic who believes in ghosts.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

I don't believe in ghosts, but I believe there are a lot of amazing things in the world that currently have no provable explanation. This is the thing a lot of people don't get: we don't deny beauty or awe or serendipity. We (and by 'we' I mean me and anyone who agrees with me) just don't need an explanation for everything. I figure if the explanation is right and true, everybody would believe the same thing.

I LOVE science fiction and used to love scary books & movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:56 PM

How does anything come into existence, Wesley? How did the Universe get here? How did the first fish appear? The first flowering plant? It's all equally mysterious, if you ask me.

I think there are several possibilities.

1. an eterior agency, a "creator", brings something into existence

2. it arises spontaneously through some natural process we don't yet fully understand

3. it creates itself by a deliberate act of conscious will

4. it is given birth through another individual being of similar type

5. it buds or clones off another being

5. it arrives here out of some other dimension (as if through the far side of a black hole, for example)

And that's probably not all when it comes to such theories...

The bottom line is: We don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

Arguing for a God with no a priori makes no less sense and no more sense than for a spiritual being with no a priori. Why, it could be, you know, that the kingdom of Heaven really is within you!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

My partner is an athiest, does not believe in ghosts or any kind of life after death or reincarnation. However he is mad about SciFi.

Am tending toward athiesm... just can't (or maybe don't want to) believe in a supreme being that would let the suffering go on that does.

However, I have had several near death (damned doctors keep prescribing things I am allergic to) experiences and knew very definitely I was going somewhere. Bright light and all. There were no guides though. Also have seen, heard and physically felt presence of loved ones. Most recently, my 23 (she will always be 23 now) year old daughter, sometimes sits next to me on sofa (feels like she is physically there pressed against side of my body) or pokes me in the back when I am talking to colleagues. She did that in life. Played "pokeMom" to get on my last nerve.

So I don't know... want me to come back and tell you when I cross over? "Yup there's lots of athiests over here but they don't believe in themselves."

snerk!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

So you have to have insight to see ghosts.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

#1 is correct, LH -- and I'm that agency. I've told you all and told you all: I created everything and it only exists when I think about it.

This includes ghosties and ghoulies and long-legged beasties and things that go bump in the night.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

"1. an exterior agency, a "creator", brings something into existence."

Wouldn't that exterior agency be considered a higher power? If I'm unable to create something from nothing wouldn't an exterior agency that does have that capability have a higher power than myself? And would that make it a god?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:19 PM

Tam:: The tragedy informing your last post makes the extremely humorous last line even more brilliant.

Thanks.

Wesley: Everybody lives within the confines of their own creations, barriers, and such. This makes it seems like there is a bigger agency, since the point of view you are taking is constrained by something "outside" yourself; but the something outside yourself is just you having a better hair day.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

I'm sure that there are many skeptical types who believe neither in God nor in ghosts.

However, belief in one aspect of an unseen spiritual realm does not necssarily imply belief in any other. Plenty of theists firmly disbelieve in ghosts, because their preferred authorities and/or scriptures tell them that ghosts do not exist, and that to believe in such would be blasphemous. Belief in ghosts (which, I assume, includes belief in an afterlife) would seem to necessitate belief in some kind of God, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people held such a seemingly conradictory set of beliefs/unbeliefs.

And, gee whiz, plenty of people thoroughly enjoy fiction, science-fiction or otherwise, regardless of what they believe actually exists. For that matter, I'm quite sure that many successful science-fiction authors are atheists or agnostics. In fact, I'm inclined to think that members of organized religions are a minority among SF writers. (One exception: Orson Scott Card, a practicing Mormon.)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

Amons

What is really wierd about that piece of what you termed brilliance is that Andie (the pokeMom Kid) was the clever one coming up with random humorous stuff like that all the time.
I like to think, she probably planted that in me head, the same way it feels like she takes over when I am singing really well.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Well I'm a true blue atheist....don't believe in a supreme being, rising from the dead, ghosts, angels, or any of the props used by organised religion, but I've experienced some queer things in my lifetime.

I firmly believe that there are perfectly natural powers in the human brain, of which we know almost nothing. These powers I believe, were used widely by primitive man and as we became more "civilised" and learned to use other areas of the brain to destroy one another, the spiritual areas became submerged, only coming to the surface at certain stages of our developement, or at time of extreme stress
Mental telepathy is one power which I have experienced at first hand and shall never forget, but I am sure that the human brain has many powers which have become dormant due to the way in which we have evolved.

I was brought up from early childhood by my old uncle, we lived together, slept together and finally worked together. We had a bond which I believe was even stronger than a father son relationship...the old man was my best friend and we trained racing greyhounds together for over forty years.
When I married and left the family home, old Jock stayed with his widowed sister, while my wife and I moved about ten miles away to a small village.

I am a manual worker and have always slept like a log...the minute my head hits the pillow I'm out like a light and that's me dead till morning
About a year after I moved house, at 3 in the morning I sat up in bed wide awake, with a dreadful feeling of horror and panic....i was actually in a cold sweat. I wakened my wife and told her that something was terribly wrong at home, I told her that I was sure Jock had died in horrific circumstances. She told me that I must have been dreaming, to go back to sleep and forget it, although she was very surprised that I had wakened at such an hour.

I lay unable to sleep till 7AM, when a knock came to the door (we had no telephone), I raced down stairs, threw open the door and to my great relief, on the step, stood old Jock.
He put his arm round my shoulder and said...."Your aunt Jennie fell down the stairs at 3AM this morning during a power cut and died from her injuries".
My uncles ordeal had indeed been horrific, having no light to see the extent of my aunt's injuries, to telephone or vehicle to summon assistance, yet he had made contact with me by some natural power,which seemedto have been strenghtened by is stressful situation.

So although I am an atheist, I am a "believer" in natural powers or if you like, "spirituality"

Sorry about the diatribe Seamus, but for me it was a truly life changing incident....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

The official American Atheists site says there are no ghosts and if you believe in ghosts you are not an atheist.

I have had experience with ghosts and believe a ghost is simply a phenomenon we do not yet understand.
I also believe in the effectiveness of prayer - I pray FOR not TO. The power of the human mind is barely understood today. And the power of many human minds concentrating on an outcome...well, someday we will understand.
Telekinesis is another ability that we simply do not understand and so riidicule or assign to the realm of a divinity much as magnetism was once regarded.
Some day...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

My own experience, for what it's worth, is that people who have encountered ghosts believe in them. People who haven't, often don't. And try to explain stuff to justify their disbelief, rather than listening to those who have had the experience. Why some people encounter ghosts and others don't - who knows, but there's no rule explaining who will and who won't. I run workshops in which people tell stories about their own experiences and I've lost count of people who say they hadn't believed in ghosts at all until they encountered one.
If you haven't, (yet?) or have had a weird experience you prefer not to call a ghost, that's absolutely fine.
But I see nothing about ghosts that implies theism or atheism - I have no explanation for what I've experienced or what others have, except that it might simply be a recording playing back an intense event in the past. In which case you wouldn't need any kind of god to make that happen.
On the other hand again, I've met many recording engineers who think they might be gods....

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"Official American Atheists"?   There's nothing "official" about atheism. It's not a creed or a dogma.   

I don't believe in ghosts or God or gods or ESP or UFOs, but the reasons are independent.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM

Back to basics:   When people refer to God, they may have some concept in mind, but that's only their concept, and for the most part, it differs from person to person. To many people, God is a father figure (REALLY Big Daddy!!). If a father figure, even that varies from person to person. "Father" might represent a loving and nurturing father, or it might represent a tyrannical, abusive father who will beat the crap out of you (consign you to the fires of Hell) for even the most minor transgression. It's a pretty wide spectrum, really. Different churches delineate different kinds of God(s) [father figures], and everybody within each of those congregations has a different concept.

To some, God is a vague sort of consciousness that pervades Creation, who (or "that") either does or does not intervene in human affairs, and who may or may not have created it all. To others, God is merely another name for Nature, the whole body of natural laws by which the universe operates.

So although many people think they know—are absolutely sure they know—no one really knows what the word "God" really refers to.

If anything.

The existence or non-existence of ghosts does not necessarily have anything to do with the existence of God

We perceive three dimensions (length, width, depth) and we have a concept of the fourth dimension (time). But according to the latest theories in quantum physics and/or string theory, there are actually eleven dimensions. These folks have the figures, the math for all of this, but not too many people, including the theoretical physicists themselves, can wrap their heads around the actual nature of this or what it means.

Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku has written a number of rather fascinating books on the subject, such as Hyperspace, Parallel Worlds, and Physics of the Impossible, that endeavor to examine and explain these matters. Including what we don't know.

Eleven dimensions, all occupying the same space—intertwined—interlaced. You (I, we) live in an eleven dimension universe (as far as we can theorize, complete with supporting math, if, indeed, that describes anything real—whatever "real" is), and we're directly aware of only three of these dimensions, with an idea of the fourth.

Where do we go when we die? Does our consciousness simply wink out when we fall off the perch? Or does our consciousness, or some other form of energy, simply slip into another dimension—next door, so to speak. Nobody knows for sure because no one (as far as we know) has returned from there and explained it all, at least to most people's satisfaction.

Perhaps, when someone sees a ghost, something has "leaked" through the "brane" (membrane) between dimensions.

It may have more to do with theoretical physics than it does with God.

And it may not even be "supernatural." It may just be a perfectly natural phenomenon that we don't know much about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Andie (see above) called me one morning during her university days. She was beside herself crying. Had dreamed that I had wrecked my truck. She dreamed my white truck flipping over side of Brown Mountain off route she knew I drove daily to and from work. It took me about 20 minutes to console her and convince her that I would be careful driving to work.

The instant I hung up the phone, my son's wife called to say he had been in accident, flipped company truck (white) off the road I drove every day on Brown Mountain. Son was ok save for a few bruises. But it was weird.

There were at least 2 other incidences where Andie dreamed of friends comminting suicide. When she called them to see if they were ok, found out it was their friends (unknown to Andie) who had - one for whom attempted and one who succeeded at taking own lives. So Andie was in tune with something inexplicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

"The official American Atheists site says there are no ghosts and if you believe in ghosts you are not an atheist."
Sinsull, am I correct in assuming that you just threw that in for what it isn't worth? The Pope also says what all true Catholics believe, and any number of televangelists can tell you what all "true" Christians believe. I think the idea of someone officially declaring what all atheists believe is at least as much of a hoot.
I've never encountered a ghost, but I've met quite a few people who believe they have; they have, in most cases, been at least as sane and rational as I am (which may not be saying that much). None of these cases that I know as close as second-hand involve any entity or phenomenon that was in the least threatening or distructive. Those I can remember right now all appear to involve recognizable old farm folk who still show up around the "old home place".

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:59 PM

Don Firth - Excellent post. "So although many people think they know—are absolutely sure they know—no one really knows what the word "God" really refers to."

Right. But, boy, you do get some dogmatic opinions on it from people, don't you?

Then there is that Atheist Association: "The official American Atheists site says there are no ghosts and if you believe in ghosts you are not an atheist."

Pushy bunch of bastards, aren't they? ;-) I guess you aren't allowed to wear the club colors or the special hat with the antlers on it or sing the official Atheist Association song if you admit to believing in ghosts, eh? Well, screw that! I dislike people who tell me what I must believe or not believe and whether I am or am not this or that, according to their definition of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

I've had a few weird "ghost" experiences, but I have no belief in a god of any kind. There are lots of potential explanations for ghosts - a sentient higher power creating them does not have to be the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

Rapaire? You have taken the state of mind normally termed "delusions of grandeur" and you have advanced it into a whole new amplitude of megalomania probably not seen since Nero plagued the City of Rome. Thankfully, however, you are, unlike Nero, relatively powerless. That is what permits me to still sleep with reasonable calm each night.

You have lost it, good sir. You are rambling out of control down a highway of illusion. The streetcar of your mind has left the rails and is veering drunkenly off the road. The parrot of your sense of proportion is dead and has fallen off the perch. You have become unhinged. You have one foot in the loony bin and the other flailing around in empty air. You know not what you say. Your place in the coherent Universe has become officially vacant and will shortly be re-assigned to an unemployed clairvoyant rickshaw driver from Calcutta. Let's hope he makes better use of it than you did. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

LH, should you continue in your delusions not only will I play the fiddle, but I'll stop thinking about you and you'll be cursed with nonexistence.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

I don't. Can't stand science fiction, either. I suppose that must make me an 'official' atheist!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

Um...Li'l Hawk:

That's pretty het up and vociferous defense for an imaginary character, even if he is your very own.

Next time you are passing by a perspective stand, be sure and grab some. You'll LOVE it!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

Well, the rickshaw driver, Maneesh Charbataya, is doing rather well in Rapaire's recently vacated position in the Universal Hierarchy. Better than expected.

I guess we won't be needing you any longer in this time-space continuum, Rapaire. Nice knowing you. Watch out for the time shift effects as you leave this reality, and give our kind regards to whoever you meet in the next one over. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

Whoeee---ziing!! Little Hawk, I do declare, is actually bristling!!! Dang!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:43 PM

What the heck has "science fiction" to do with belief or non-belief in ghosts?? (or God, for that matter -- ?)

It's a literary genre of fiction "that often involves speculations based on current or future science or technology". No specification or exclusion of exploration of spiritual topics in that...

Maybe you really meant to refer to the fiction genre of Fantasy, as in the sort that involves, magic, etc?

At any rate, they call it "fiction" for a reason -- you don't have to believe it's true to enjoy a story...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:50 PM

Sure, an atheist can believe in ghosts. He just can't believe that a ghost is the manifestation of a soul. There are plenty of other possible explanations for ghostish phenomena. Just because something can't be explained using known scientific methods doesn't automatically require that "God" has to figure into any possible explanation. If I believe a ghost may be "a manifestation of residual energy of some unknown form" or "an anomaly in the space-time continuum", where've I mentioned God?

And as for UFOs, why would an atheist think this planet is such a special place that it's the only one with intelligent life on it? That's what the theists believe! Seems to me that an atheistic worldview would make one more prone to believing in a universe full of life forms, some of which may be sufficiently advanced to be capable of traveling large distances at very high speeds.

Denial of the existence of a supreme being does not equate to denial of the potential for the existence of unexplained or unexplanable phenomenon. It just denies the possibility of a supreme being as an explanation for them. To state categorically that such phenomena don't exist seems to me to be a remarkably egotistical attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

That's me -- a remarkably egotistical attitude.

And damned humble about it, too.

(Actually, I long ago gave over the idea that the "intelligent" creatures on "Earth" were unique in the Universe. Simple statistics makes that very unlikely. Therefore, let's expand the concept of "human" to include all intelligent species [feel free to define that] whether or not they are manifest to the senses we "homo sapiens sapiens" have.)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

If by 'ghost' one means some coherent, bodyless remnant of someone whose body is dead......nawwwwwwww......

Do people seem to see weird stuff sometimes? Sure.... but NO ONE can explain to me how ghostishness might work....except by linguistic Gerrymandering.

Now, if I 'come back' after I die....I will come and apologize to certain folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

Linguistic GERRYMANDERING??? ROFLMAO!! What a great phrase, Bill Day. You better watch that creative stuff though. Someone might think you had a sorta spark of creative power or something, and it could blow yer whole cover!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:12 AM

"I suspect atheists do not believe in ghosts. I doubt if they're entertained by science fiction movies either."

I love science fiction. Lots and lots. So you're wrong me old mucker.

God is Dog spelt backwards - spooky or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:32 AM

I guess I was just speaking for myself. I get bored quite quickly with most elements of the unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Alice
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM

unexplained phenomena
supreme being creator

The above are two different things. You don't have to believe in a supreme being to believe there are unexplained phenomena. But, seems like the definition of "ghost" is not something that people in this thread agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Bee
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

I'm in agreement with lots of previous comments. I've had experiences that are currently inexplicable, but nothing about them encouraged me to think they implied the existence of deities, souls, an afterlife, and so on. Most of them likely were internally created phenomena (bit of undigested mustard, or summat). Some certainly stemmed from my own mind encouraged and/or manipulated by someone else (would explain the full size black panther that appeared on my bed when I was fifteen... girlfriend that was over-nighting was hella strong-minded). Other experiences - who knows? I'm agnostic on a lot more concepts besides gods.

And I like science fiction, seriously indulged in it when I was young, read twenty SF books a week when I could get my hands on 'em. If anything, writers like Dick and Delaney and Niven influenced my skepticism positively.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:06 PM

Some of the most intriguing material I've seen on similar phenomena, has been where the police use psychics to aid in their researches in murder cases.

There was some woman in one of those 'test the psychic' doco's a while back. In one of the tests she was taken to an unknown location (an anonymous footpath) and asked to find out what she could. She claimed to get in touch with a young girl who had been murdered there, and the young girl went on to describe her attacker. The description she had given precisely fitted one of the intitial suspects, but the police hadn't been able to gain enough evidence to build a decent case against him. It was an old case. None of the pertinant information had been released to the public. The police re-opened the investigation on the strength of the information she had provided.

I believe she helps Mountain Rescue find people lost in the snow now. Because she was spot on with discovering hidden live people in tests in which the army participated in the programme. Mountain rescue contacted her after the doco was shown.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

Well, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

Or is it that there are more things dreamed of in philosophy than there are in heaven and earth?

Spooky!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

My memory of that programme may be imprecise. But it's the nuts and bolts.

As for ghosts, I don't think you have to believe in a creator god to recognise that consciousness is a phenomena that we haven't got much of a decent clue about yet. I for one do not believe that consciousness is *necessarily* dependent on matter. Or that there is necessarily only one dimension in which consciousness could operate.

I do however think that probably most ghostly phenomena, is what they term a result of 'stone tape'.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists and Ghosts
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM

That was a few years back. I revisited American Atheists and their statement has been chaged to a "softer gentler" one. LOL

A few years back I was going to join until I read the statement. I found it hilarious that a non-belief system was as rigid as some belief systems. Didn't sign up.