Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:18 PM

Well, somehow that sums it up rather well.

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

I know somebody who dances Border Morris, and doesn't black up when the others do.
Because she has sensitive skin!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

Insane Beard, sorry postings crossed.

I reckon Mr Stanshall's take on everything was pretty complicated! I just unearthed an ancient VHS copy of the Innes Book of Records which featured Vivian. I think one could fairly say that his performance was somewhat "challenging" but at least he didn't take his clothes off.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

Yes sorry Pip, Neil isn't blacked up. And he probably does wince a bit now, if he ever sees the DVD!

My daughter thought it was all EXTREMELY offensive. I disagree but how the hell can one explain that bunch of maniacs in less than a day? I'm just grateful to see dear Vivian and the other madmen once more, even in YouTube FuzzyVision. Dada for now....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:32 AM

Look Out There's A Monster Coming.

And not forgetting the late Trevor Howard, who blacked up in the film of Vivian Stanshall's Sir Henry at Rawlinson End; this from a man whose idea of fun was dressing up in a Nazi uniform and going out on the town with his oppo Keith Moon. By the way, I'm a huge Vivian Stanshall fan and fully appreciate his take on such things was, out of necessity, rather complicated.

Not forgetting Vic and Bob as Otis and Marvin, no footage of them blacked up on YouTube, but here's Vic's Barry White http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ttb1gjs8s1g.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

In the clip, the band are all blacked up

Except one (Neil Innes). I wonder if he had qualms about it (I was about to add "even then", but that would sound incredibly condescending).

In theory nothing could be more stereotyped and offensive, but it's actually hilarious and a total p*ss take, like so much of their stuff.

Yes. As with a lot of their stuff, it's somewhere between being a kind of meta-parody (a parody of a parody of...) & just being six blokes larking around. I don't think anyone would try that now, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

For what it's worth in this erudite discussion, "context is all" in my opinion.

A good example is on YouTube right now. I won't add a link as I don't want to frighten the horses! It's a performance of "Look Out There's a Monster Coming" by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band, done on TV about 40 years ago. For those who don't know their oeuvre, the song's about a little bloke who attempts to make himself attractive to ladies and succeeds only in turning himself into Frankenstein's monster. In the clip, the band are all blacked up, and limbo dancing is also involved. In theory nothing could be more stereotyped and offensive, but it's actually hilarious and a total p*ss take, like so much of their stuff. I imagine Charles Atlas type ads, 1960s light entertainment TV and particularly "The Black & White Minstrel Show" were primary targets.

As another example, the wonderful Mitchell and Kenyon films unearthed recently show a carnival procession in a UK northern town around 1900. There are about 50 people dressed up in "darkie" outfits, complete with banjos, top hats, etc. etc. These people are now just shadows on a screen - branding them as "racists" doesn't get anybody very far.

To get back to the actual subject, I honestly think a lot of the blacking up by Morris sides started with the Shropshire Bedlams, and has become "traditional" as lots more Border Morris sides have started. So it's an Ancient English Tradition which dates back to about 1974. (But to be fair, my Dad remembered my grandfather talking about the Lincolnshire Plough Monday tradition which involved facial disguise and demanding money with menaces).

The Britannia Coco-Nut Dancers are another kettle of tea entirely, and anybody who interferes with them (ooer missus) does so at their peril.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

I've tried to post a lengthy and well thought out (IMHO :) )post but it was eaten by the gremlins. So I'll keep it brief.

Although in some areas there had been an earlier tradition of morris dancers and mummers blacking up, it seems to have died out and was revived in the later C19. This coincided with the minstrel craze, and it seems hard to deny some connection.

It therefore seems difficult to continue to justify blacking up purely on the basis that it was for disguise, although this certainly seems to have played a part, supported by the fact that in some places other colours were used instead of black.

On the other hand, I believe it is too simplistic to say that blacking up originated from the minstrel craze and was therefore racist (in modern terms, if not considered so at the time). It seems quite possible to me that the minstrel craze simply prompted memories of the earlier custom and caused a revival, rather than morris dancers blacking up to imitate minstrels. Some of the Cotswold traditions, for example, adopted minstrel tunes but didn't start blacking up.

It also seems to me that our perception of the minstrel craze itself is seen through modern eyes and I suspect that those who took part viewed it quite differently (and most would never have seen an actual black person). It has also coloured our modern reaction to blacking up, so that some see it as inevitably offensive regardless of the purpose.

My personal opinion is that blacking up for morris wasn't and isn't racist, but that the influence of the minstrels may result in some people today seeing it that way. I understand why some sides choose to use different colours (and there is traditional precedent for this)but I also understand why others insist on retaining it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

As I said to Dazbo,

"As someone who plays for a border team that "black up" using black, light blue, dark blue, silver and sparkle artistically combined into pretty patterns"

What can I possibly say but ................ the Morris is a living tradition and you are helping it to live......... thanks, simply thanks

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: meself
Date: 16 Jan 09 - 12:16 AM

"Blacked-up dancers are racist"

Is this one of those examples of someone choosing to be offended?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:30 PM

Blacked-up dancers are racist, so are clog wearing dancers dutch.

Who's saying blacked-up dancers are racist? Some people have said that dancers who black up, while not racist themselves, are likely to be seen as racist. Some people have also said that blacking-up seems to derive mainly from minstrel shows, which probably aren't a tradition we'd want to preserve. I think these are both good points.

Only the ignorant could be offended, I do not pander to ignorance, I educate!

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

I thought that's what they were all called :)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

>>so are clog wearing dancers dutch<<

My wife is Dutch and I call her a cloggie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Hallf-A-Mo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:43 PM

I can't imagine Shropshire Bedlams wearing another colour, nor Seven Champions, does anyone else remember them?

Nor do I remember, in 25 years of dancing all around the country, of any group of black audience members being offended by blacked-up morris dancers. They always react as any other audience, amused, confused and/or interested (rare in cities).

Are we also to oust the 'Turkish Knight' from mumming plays?

Blacked-up dancers are racist, so are clog wearing dancers dutch.

Only the ignorant could be offended, I do not pander to ignorance, I educate!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: meself
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Ah! Now I understand ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Dazbo,

"As someone who plays for a border team that "black up" using black, light blue, dark blue, silver and sparkle artistically combined into pretty patterns"

What can I possibly say but ................ the Morris is a living tradition and you are helping it to live......... thanks, simply thanks

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

He's probably a lot bigger than you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: meself
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

"Being offended (intentionally or otherwise) is part of life but I believe that it only matters if that offence was deliberate."

Really? That must make things easy for you. I couldn't count the number of times I've felt I had to apologize to someone for having unintentionally offended them ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Dazbo
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:41 AM

Doesn't Robin Hood glorify armed robbery and knife crime, I'm sure that offends someone, somewhere? Like Lady P I find the viel used by some women highly offensive but I'm sure I'd be in trouble if I suggested they be removed. Being offended (intentionally or otherwise) is part of life but I believe that it only matters if that offence was deliberate.

As someone who plays for a border team that "black up" using black, light blue, dark blue, silver and sparkle artistically combined into pretty patterns (we were at straw bear but I was ill so couldn't go:-( ) can I add that in my experience the amount of disguise is highly dependent on the colour. The greater the difference between the skin colour and the paint the better the disguise. For white people black is by far the best disguise and others much less so until you get to white or silver which just makes you look ill. So in general I'd say that black is the only suitable colour for disguise for white skinned folks (and would be interested if white is the most effective for dark skinned).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:57 AM

OK I admit I've not scrutinised every post so apologies if my twopenn'orth is repeating someone.

I was at Straw Bear last weekend. There I saw border and Molly sides with red faces, blue faces (not just the cold), black-and-white faces, Gog Magog in which every face was a different colour, and faces with a range of black marks ranging from lightly-smeared through blacking on middle part of face (i.e. not round ears or jaw) through to musicians for one group who, with the aid of hats, scarves, coats, and deep black faces, showed no vestige of true colour. And of course other Cotswold, North-west and sword dance teams with no face paint at all.

As to is it effective - some while ago someone from a blacked-up border morris side came up and was talking to me for quite a while, obviously knowing all about me & my family. Only later did I piece together who it must have been - to this day I'm not certain!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:13 AM

"she'd never heard of anything so daft"

That's probably because she had indeed never heard anything like it...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:33 AM

Maybe sooner than you think, McGrath. I was explaining political parties to my eight-year-old the other day (it was a slow day). Some of them were quite hard to get across (try explaining the Lib Dems some time), but the BNP were easy: "they want to keep brown people out of this country". The interesting thing was my daughter's reaction - "Really?" She was instantly outraged, but also incredulous - she'd never heard of anything so daft.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:41 PM

Multi-coloured face-paint for a multi-coloured country seems very sensible(well, daft, since it is morris, but sensible daft), looks pretty good, and doesn't give rise to any misunderstandings.

Someday we'll be through all this stuff about what colour skin people have, and people will find it hard to believe it ever was like that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: lady penelope
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"No reflection whatsoever on Gorton but an indication of something or other?"

That the morris dancer in question was pissed off at having piss taken out of him?

I'm sorry, but you can read any meaning into anything if you have a big enough crow bar.

As to this 'let's not dare to offend anyone' so called argument.

I came to watching border morris after I had been guising for several years. In guising (whether it's mumming or what ever) it's common place to black up or wear a mask. The point is disguise. Not to emulate any particular skin colour. I cannot be held responsible for what someone else wishes to read into my wearing a mask or putting makeup on my face.

I find the full face mask/veil worn by some muslim women to be offensive as it, to me and many other women - muslim or otherwise, represents the scandalous treatment of women in many parts of the world where religion is used as a stick to beat them. However, it is not up to me to demand that all women in Britain who have chosen to wear the veil be made to remove them because I find it offensive. It's their choice to wear the veil (or it should be). There are connotations and reasons for wearing the veil that I either don't know about or don't agree with, but the bottom line is that it doesn't affect me. It does not make a direct impact on my life.

Back to the original question. I need to go dig about, but I have read quotes from parish accounts circa 16 & 1700s that describe New Year wassailing and Halloween activities. In them they describe men, either singly or in small groups, dressed in black with blackened faces going from door to door. Sometimes singing, sometimes doing solo jigs or group dances (no mention of morris though)and then asking for money. In some of the accounts, it is noted that possibly they have blackened faces to prevent anyone reporting them to the parish for begging.

Whilst this does not preclude there being minstrel connotations with morris men blacking up, it suggests that it is probably not the only source of the tradition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

Baz,

thanks for a good natured and well informed post on a difficult subject but I am not sure what conclusion to draw.

Since nobody has commented on this:

"Can those sides who have changed the tunes, the band, the kit and the dances please change the colour of their faces?"

I guess it didn't appear in my earlier post?

This makes a loint very well:

"Howard...I do think there's some link with minstelry...I'm sure you know and play Clee Hill...i learned it as (those easily offended look away now) Clee Hill Niggering."

So, if Ironmen and others can change the name of a tune and I guess a dance, who will be the first side to change the colour of their faces?

Gorton Rushcart was lots of fun and I understand it will be revived this year. For what it's worth it's the only folk event I have ever been to in around 45 years in which I witnessed violence, when a member of a North West mens side, on being mocked for dancing with women ( they were behind a women's side in the procession) thumped said mocker who left in an ambulance. No reflection whatsoever on Gorton but an indication of something or other?

Cheers

Les

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

I've sat and wondered whether I should post, but sorry, can't shut up!!

I danced blacked up for some 15 years...and when the knees gave up played blacked up for another five. So, my two pennorth

Howard...I do think there's some link with minstelry...I'm sure you know and play Clee Hill...i learned it as (those easily offended look away now) Clee Hill Niggering. On our second CD we use a picture of the Broseley Morris dancers... we chickened out of using the original name of the troupe because, yes it used the n word.

Les...the Ironmen spent many happy (and I don't think it was just the drink!!) hours following Gorton Rushcart. No one seemed offended.

The morris/moresco theory. Some twenty odd years ago we were in vited to dance in the Basque country. Most of the other teams were government supported performing arts groups. The Basque team were, like most British teams, used to dancing in the streets. On the last day of the festival we mananged it. The Basque team (the Basques are fiercly proud of the fact that the Moors didn't give them the pasting they gave the rest of "Spain") bought out what was, in fact, a giant jig doll...black face, tattered jacket, feathers in hat. Used as a morris team might use a hobby horse. What was it called...a Moresco. A nice story, if nothing else. BTW there were two or three afro-carib troupes represented who found the whole thing hilarious. The only grief we got was from the Quebecois, and I don't think that had anything to do with the blacking.

A theory I've not seen elsewhere on the thread links the tradition to the gypsies...follow the hop trail...Shropshire, Hereford and Worcester, Kent,...and you'll see blacking up...gypsies being darkes skinned. Again, a nice story.

To end on a lighter note...we used to use the following as a party line

Punter Why do you black your faces
Dancer It's a disguise
Confused Punter Oh
Dancer You don't recognise me do you
Punter No
Dancer It must work then.

When we got bored, or had drink taken, this would be abbreviated to

Why do you black your faces
To frighten the camels away
But there aren't any camels in (insert location)
It must work, then!!

Happy days.

I've just re read this and I'm happy to post. If you're offended sorry. Someone more knowledgable than me will be along in a minute

Baz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

All is not lost, the England Rugby Union team are taking up Morris Dancing in opposition to the New Zeland `Haka`.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

I should add to the above post that, of course, British Black people are not a collective entity. Some won't have any problem with it at all. Some will.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

From Howard Jones:

'What I don't know, because we've not had any replies from anyone identifying themselves as a black British person, is how black people themselves view it.'



From the blacking-up discussion, 2007:

'Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say:

"I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour.

The bottom line is that we now live in multicultural Britain, and although these forms are traditional, they are not really acceptable anymore. Times, attitiudes and trends move on, and now is time to move forward, not just in dance and song. If there was a display of this kind of dancing in an inner-city area, how would it go down? In my opinion it would be taken very badly and many people would be offended, because as i see it, it is a backward step. I do not think that blacking up to dance achieves multi-racial harmony."

So, not just us white middle class do-gooders finding it offensive, then. I don't know about you, but i am always really chuffed to see black and Asian people at traditional events, from festivals to calendar customs. I think it says something incredibly positive about the culture we live in. The idea of people of different backgrounds trying to engage positively with English traditional culture being confronted with a blacking-up tradition that has its roots in minstrelsy is incredibly depressing.'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:30 AM

Thanks, Cats. I think the quotes tell their own story. Compare
1599: revellers disguised by blackened faces
and
1780: Mylor [Truro] Mummers Play has the character Black Sambo in it

In the sixteenth century, nobody in England would make the connection from blackened faces to people with naturally dark skin, as the idea of people having dark skin was more or less unknown (witness the use of 'black' and 'brown' as adjectives for people, referring to their hair colour).

In the eighteenth century, the connection was there to be made, but in most cases there would be nobody watching who was likely to take offence (least of all in Cornwall).

200 years later, lots of people would make the connection, and quite a few of them would take offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

There are none so easily offended, as those who look for all possible [and impossible]reasons to take offence

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,Cats at work
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

At the start of this thread someone asked for evidence of blacking up. I have copied this from a previous thread. Thjese are facts not opinions and not folklore.

All quotes from Professor Ronald Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun – a History of the Ritual Year in Britain'. He is at University of Bristol – the most prestigious history dept in any UK university.

8th c. Wassailing mentioned in Beowulf

1263       Mumming first recorded in Troyes where the corporation banned it among the populace.

1320       Peter de Langtoft written description of Wassailing

1347       Edward III introduces Mumming into the court using masks of women, men, angels, animal heads and wild men.

1377 The Common Council sends 130 men to salute Richard II ' to go Mumming with the said prince'

1405       Mumming banned from streets of London, Bristol and Chester as the 'combination of dark nights, dark faces and revellers in disguise afforded marvellous opportunity for crime'

1414       Lollard heretics plotted a coup at Eltham Palace ' under colour of Mumming'

1508 Scotland man hanged for stealing whilst under the guise of Mumming.

1599                a court at Elgin 'forbade guising' as this was the third time in 5 years people had stolen and 'every one of those before had been defied by revellers disguised by blackened faces'

1606       Mummers in Aberdeen 'they presume to mask or disguise themselves'

1655         Calne, Wiltshire dispute between ale house keeper over payment by mummers.


1657 reference to mummers from North Aston in Oxfordshire and Frome in Somerset

1659 Mummers in Weston Underwood, Bucks

I will add to this that the 1780 Mylor [Truro] Mummers Play has the charcter Black Sambo in it, again evidence of blacking up. No argument about the rights and wrongs from me. I have just responded to a request for evidence of blacking up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Gedi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

"I remember my Mom & dad couldn't wait for the Black & White Minstrels to come on each Saturday when I was young. They loved it, but there was never a thought to it being rascist. I never ever dreamt that it could be that way"

I too used to watch this programme with my family and never saw any racist connotations. However today I would feel distinctly uncomfortable watching it, especially if I had my best friend (who is black) with me at the time.

After reading the above I cannot see any real evidence that blacking up is all that traditional and tend to agree with Les that it does without doubt offend some people. On that basis surely it is not beyond the pale to change the colour to blue (which after all the Ancient Brits used to use and so could be seen as being very trad!) or some other colour with no racial connotations.

I also would like to say that I do not believe members of the Morris
to be racist, but why continue doing something knowing it to be offensive?

Ged

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM

Les, as I said in an earlier post, individual sides will make the decision based on their own experiences and the reactions of their audience. As I've also said before, even if there is connection with the minstrels I think that is now broken and I think that most people watching morris will simply view it as part of the "old and strange" thing without seeing a racial element.

What I don't know, because we've not had any replies from anyone identifying themselves as a black British person, is how black people themselves view it. I suspect that they're even less interested in morris than most white British, so maybe its not really an issue in practice. Sides that dance before a multi-racial audience will know whether they get an adverse reaction to blacking up and may then choose to use a different colour.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:48 AM

Sorry,

Since nobody has commented on this:

"Can those sides who have changed the tunes, the band, the kit and the dances please change the colour of their faces?"

I guess it didn't appear in my earlier post?

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:20 AM

"disguising" was mentioned in records at least as far back as 1494

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM

Just a view from an occasional Morris watcher.

I have never really thought about the blacking up being racist - I just assumed it was a mining area tradition as I see it in the Durham area.

As to disguise - I have some friends who dance Morris & remarked that I had never seen them dance.
Last year at a festival singaround one came & sat with me 'blacked up'.
It was then I realised why I had not seen them dance - or I should say, recognise them.
So on casual viewing (watching the dancing and not examining faces) the disguise factor works.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:40 AM

If I were you Les, I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for Newthink to change the world. ;)
I suppose you have heard the current news on nicknames as used by the British royal family and others?
I assume this makes them unfit for purpose in your book?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:29 AM

Well, apart from John Mackenzie, who can probably stop holding his breath now, we seem to be approaching some kind of concensus.

Can those sides who have changed the tunes, the band, the kit and the dances please change the colour of their faces?

No, I bet they wont and Howard and Pip Radish have a good stab at why,

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:50 AM

Sorry Kampervan, I see that probably sounds bluddy annoying! I guess I'm attempting to protect myself from potential disagreements online. And truthfully whilst a genuinely interested party in some of these topics, I don't know enough of either traditional arts or racial issues, to offer a substantial or well-informed opinion. I'll shut up now and let the thread get back on topic ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

Is it denial? Wishful thinking? Was there any historical evidence to support it, or is it one of those things, like morris being a pagan fertility rite, that emerged from someone's fevered imagination?

My guess would be all of the above - fantasy driven by wishful thinking reinforced by denial, BUT based on a foundation of odd bits and pieces which genuinely do predate the minstrel shows (red earth, raddle, veils).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:56 AM

Whilst I think the origins of blacking up for morris are still a bit obscure, there is certainly a weight of evidence that suggests it comes from the minstrels.

Which raises the question, where did the conventional wisdom that it is simply about disguise come from? That has been the accepted notion for as long as I can remember. Is it denial? Wishful thinking? Was there any historical evidence to support it, or is it one of those things, like morris being a pagan fertility rite, that emerged from someone's fevered imagination?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

Howard, the Padstow thread went on to encompass the practice of blacking up as a whole. It specifically talked about the minstrelsy inherent in the border morris tradition, including the practice mentioned by Dave Hunt of "going niggering".

More to the point, no one ever seemed to satisfactorily answer this question:

"I'll tell you why I think it's important in the context of English traditional cultures: because this is such an interesting time in terms of defining the English identity. I work with schools comprised of children of different backgrounds and faiths, but we bring English traditional dance and song into those schools. I think it's very important that both children from indigenous backgrounds AND those from diverse cultures get to experience the traditions of this country, so that they understand that these traditions belong to them, and comprise part of their heritage, whether they were born here or not.

Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"



Pip - makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

Blacking up in the Morris: Q and A.

Q: Is blacking-up in the tradition?
A: Yes... in some bits of it, in some parts of the country.

Q: Do those bits of the tradition go back to ancient immemorial folk customs the like of which we modern town-dwellers wot but little of?
A: No.

Q: Just No?
A: Well... disguise is a big thing all over the place. But disguise in the specific form of painting one's face black, not so much.

Q: Meaning?
A: Meaning it might be a relatively recent addition.

Q: Right. And have different elements been added to traditional practices in relatively recent times, or indeed taken away?
A: Yes, it goes on all the time. Living tradition and all that.

Q: So if those sides which currently black up were to agree to use (say) purple or dark blue face-paint (or beekeepers' veils), this would be quite in keeping with the Morris as a living tradition, and would not be any sort of break with the older folk traditions of 'guising' which blacking-up seems to echo?
A: Is that a question?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

I followed the Darkie Day thread, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with morris. It seems to me to be a quite different tradition and the only connection so far as I can see is the blacking up. However I don't really know anything about it so I'm reluctant to comment.

As Les says, white people blacking up and mocking black people has a very long and deep history. However here we are talking about white people blacking up for a purpose and in a fashion which has nothing to do with mocking black people.

I would be entirely happy about introducing black British people to our blacking up morris traditions, provided I am allowed to explain that it is not about "mocking black people" but has a quite different origin and function. However I would like to be more certain in my own mind that this assumption is correct.

On the one hand there seems to be little evidence of blacking up before the minstrel craze (but also little evidence the other way, if I understand correctly), on the other hand if it did come from the minstrels I would have expected the morris to have adopted many more aspects of the minstrel identity. This suggests to me that it blacking up had deeper roots - but that's just supposition on my part.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

OK, let's all give up breathing.
After all, it's just a silly outdated tradition ;)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

As this is are=hash of the discussion from 2 years ago, I might as well re-post some of my messages from then, as not much has changed in the interim. This was still in the context of the Darkie Days debate:


No one is claiming that other cultures are perfect, but this particular discussion is about an aspect of English traditional culture. It's not about trying to undermine or destroy tradition. If traditions are living things, then they grow and evolve and change with the times. And if there is an aspect of a tradition that has the potential for causing offence, what is so wrong with interrogating it? What are you afraid of, exactly?

I dsagree with you that the only 'we' in this discussion are the people of Padstow. Padstow is one blacking-up tradition. There are many. In this day and age, it is absolutely right that we should be debating whether this is a practice that is appropriate in 21st century Britain. I'm not saying that it necessarily ought to be abolished, funnily enough. I'm saying that it's a debate that ought to be allowed to happen, with the fullness of evidence and research to be called upon, rather than folklore, conjecture and apocrypha.

I'll tell you why I think it's important in the context of English traditional cultures: because this is such an interesting time in terms of defining the English identity. I work with schools comprised of children of different backgrounds and faiths, but we bring English traditional dance and song into those schools. I think it's very important that both children from indigenous backgrounds AND those from diverse cultures get to experience the traditions of this country, so that they understand that these traditions belong to them, and comprise part of their heritage, whether they were born here or not.

Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?

No one is trying to "whitewash" anything. Yes, these things were once a very popular part of popular culture. But that doesn't mean they should be forever perpetuated. "Traditional" does not equal sacrosanct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Kampervan
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Dear Sleepy Rosie, methinks that the quality and content of your postings have reached the point where a phrase like 'please kindly indulge my ignorant newby status' is perhaps sounding a teeny bit disingenuous.

Are you a very fast learner or a bit of a sleeper?

Either way you've certainly made some great postings and asked some very apposite questions. Nice one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM

Aha, Ooops, I think I've err now 'got' some of the stuff I missed before...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Blacking up for morris - origin?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

Ah Rosie, it's not you thst's going round spouting stuff from an HR Diversity training day.