BS: How did the Romans light candles?

Subject: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:30 PM

Fantastically dumb question, right? ;-)

Well, what I'm really after here is...I want to know when matches first came into use, and what people generally did prior to the invention of matches when they needed a quick light.

For instance, Roman archers often used flaming arrows in battle. This required a very large number of men to repeatedly ignite volleys of arrows which were coated, I would assume, in some sort of very flammable pitch or something like that. Now, I'm pretty sure they weren't using matches or lighters to do that, eh?

Nope, I'm bettin' that they had some flaming pots of pitch stationed all along the firing line and they all dipped their arrows in it to get a light just before shooting them. That's what I'd figure. But how did they light the pots of pitch in the first place? From a main fire? Okay, then how did they light that main fire in the first place? And so on, and so on...

To make a long story short, who invented matches and when and where did they first become available?

I know I could just look it up on Google, but I'd rather give you all a chance to make some wisecracks here and demonstrate your wit and wisdom...

I wait with great anticipation. Don't let me down.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:37 PM

strike a flint over some dried moss

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

Do you mean the wooden sticks tipped with flammable chemicals dyed red we recognise as matchsticks, the brown tipped ones we know as safety matches or the slow match which is used to ignite cannon, early firearms and fireworks, which is basically a piece of thick cord soaked or coated in a flammable material (saltpetre usually)?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

Aha. You sure?

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:41 PM

Flint and a firestone - a stne cotaining iron such as pyrite. (Steel is better, but that wasn't around till modern times, 17th century or so.)

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

Dammit, there's a very old NFB animation that answers your question, but they don't appear to have it on their site. I think it was called 'Fire'.

John F. Weldon, where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

Okay, Liz, I don't mean the slow match. A slow match still had to be ignited from some other fire source. I mean the modern match which is ignited by striking it on a rough surface of some kind.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

LH, you're matchless!

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

So it seems that striking a piece of flint on an appropriate surface was the key in the ancient world, is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

SRS - Yes, I know. ;-) I try not to let it cause me to become vain.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Alice
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

An antiquities seller has an Ebay page.
You can buy an "ancient Roman fire starter" for your very own!

http://www.hotlinecy.com/antiquities.htm

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Alice
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:46 PM

scroll down on that page and you can see photos of them.
There is also an illustration of how they used it to strike against flint held against the "touchwood" flammable material.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:50 PM

Lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Alice
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

photo

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Alice
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

diagram of how it was used

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

With Roman Candles we always used to light blue touchpaper and retire.

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

Liquid Oxygen perhaps?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

'Roman archers often used flaming arrows in battle'. Did they though? It's pretty much news to me. Not that I'm that old.

Firing flaming arrows must be inaccurate. The flight characteristics change during flight. And it is only useful to set light to something inflammable which most armour of the period wasn't. I do know about the use of Greek Fire and 'flaming pigs' and carcass shot from engines. But I would say that flaming arrows is much more Hollywood than history.

But that Romans did have numbers of little oil lamps
in their dwellings. Quite common on Roman digs.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

The Romans did indeed used flaming arrows, Les, and so did many other ancient armies. They also used flaming bombardment with "Greek Fire" hurled from catapults, the ancient equivalent to air bombardment with napalm. It must have been horrifying.

The primary value of a volley of flaming arrows is that it terrifies the people (and animals) at the receiving end considerably more than ordinary arrows do. It panics horses and elephants. If it strikes flesh it will not only pierce, but burn. If it strikes clothing or a wooden structure, it will set it afire. It will set dry grass afire too. This was all very useful in terrorizing a formation of soldiers or in assaulting a fortress or a movable siege tower. Smaller fortifications were generally constructed of wood, and they were flammable. It was also very useful in naval warfare, for the same reason.

A flaming arrow may be less accurate than an unlit arrow, but I expect it is still accurate enough to be quite useful.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

Flint and steel (or something else that will strike sparks from the flint). The same principle was used in flintlock firearms - and, for that matter, in modern cigarette lighters.

When I was in Scouts back in the first half of the last century, I knew how to start a fire by various means without matches, but why knock yourself out? I kept my trusty windproof Zippo lighter handy.

The Greeks used to lob balls of flaming pitch at enemies. It was called "Greek fire." Probably ignited the same way: flint, plus whatever worked.

Ancient technology, probably discovered by some Neanderthal who was fascinated by discovering that he could strike sparks by scraping these two rocks together, and then managed to inadvertently set his beard on fire.

Invention and discovery sometimes requires genius, sometimes courage, and sometimes sheer stupidity.

Consider the courage of the first person to ever eat cheese. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM

The Romans were very fond of fire-based weaponry. In fact, it's said they invented the precursor of the modern-day flamethrower. Slaves were fed huge amounts of beans and other flatulence producing foods and then forced to kneel with their bare bottoms pointed toward the enemy while their farts were ignited by torch-bearing roman soldiers. They were mainly used in short-range cheek-to-cheek combat. Though not extremely effective in terms of actual casualties produced, the enemies of Rome would often break into full retreat at the sight of hundred of hairy barbarians with blue flames shooting out of their asses.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

WOW! The ultimate in warfare! Attacking the enemy with flame-throwers while mooning them at the same time!!

Devastating!

Weapons of ass distruction?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

An entire Chinese Army division once mooned the Russians across no-mans-land up in Manchuria, during a tense period when there was a high risk of a border war.

I've always felt that the Russians blew their chance for a great victory that day by not ordering an immediate all-out attack. The Chinese would have been literally caught with their pants down.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: skipy
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 08:48 PM

I opened a box of safety matches to lite a cigarette (yes, dirty, filthy smoker, let's not even go there)& I heard a sobbing sound coming from the box! I searched around & found one match with a red head, I pulled it out gently & held it to my ear, it was sobbing, I asked what the problem was & it said that it was differant from all the rest in the box, I told it that all was O/K, you're a Swan!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 10:31 PM

They used Greeks. Greeks apparently burst spontaneously into flame, which is where Greek Fire came from.

They would also have used burning glasses (no, those are NOT new-ish), fire plungers, flint and "steel", friction, and fire bows. And, of course, there's saving the fire from your friend and mine, lightning -- or just bringing fire the Vestal Virgins made along with you.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

Here is a great article on how to use flint and tinder...

How to use flint and steel to start a fire

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

Considering that candelabra were found in the ruins of Pompei it would suggest they had candles in their houses... so probably they would have used the same materials they made candles from to make tapers for lighting whatever/whenever. Presume the history of the tapers and candles is available somewhere......

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

This was the native American method: Bow and Drill Fire Starter

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:18 PM

Yup. Bow and drill was one of the methods I learned in Scouts. I knew about it before that, but actually did it once in Scout camp, just for the experience.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:40 PM

Fire piston. Been around for many, many centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:09 PM

And now I know the origin of the term "flaming asshole."

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

WOW! The ultimate in warfare! Attacking the enemy with flame-throwers while mooning them at the same time!!

Devastating!

Weapons of ass distruction?

Don Firth


Here's something along those lines Don.........probably works about as well............Interestingly stupid though........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

Nobody has said sunfire. The Romans had glass, so why not sun fire?

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

I think that was mentioned as 'burning glasses' a ways up...

Yep.. Rapaire did it. "They would also have used burning glasses (no, those are NOT new-ish), "

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:44 PM

Oh, sorree. My bad.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:53 PM

I have an idea that matches were invented in Britain in Victorian times, and called Lucifers. I could be wrong about the date.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:17 AM

I would have thought they would have resorted to-gas!!

Togas!! Get it?


OK,OK! I get on people's wick with my jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:14 AM

Some hints here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_fire

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:00 AM

Did a bit of research, -if that's what you call looking up the web!
The principle of the friction match was invented/proved/recorded by an Irish chemist in 1680. They were dangerous and poisonous.

The 'Lucifer' friction match was invented and produced in England in 1827. Still poisonous, and 'fixed' with sugar. 'Several' children were poisoned every year, eating them.

The safety match, which must be struck on a special patch, was invented in Sweden in 1855.

Lots of developments between these dates, of course. Sweden is the world's largest match producer.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:10 AM

Didn't get much humour, did you, LH! The only 'wit' I could think of was really just insulting, and not really funny at all. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:08 AM

Most of the "methods" cited here have been how to start a fire, but historical accounts in a variety of cultures before Zippo have inclded descriptions of the duty of assigned persons, for a household or for an army, who "kept the fire burning" so that it was only rarely necessary to "start from scratch" (flint or drill, etc).

The accounts I've seen, as with some of the instructions for fire starting, omit details of the precise methods and materials favored by any of the "fire keepers" much less comparisons of alternatives used by different ones. There's also the problem of "writers with imagination" who made up details that don't actually work.

Does anyone know anything of this?

coals in a clay pot? - if so what kind of coals? - what kind of pot?

cavity in a log? - same detail needed.

It would appear that mostly a "flame" was difficult to carry, so probably it was just "glowing materials" but ordinary wood coals have a fairly short life if not constantly regenerated with new fuel.

I vaguely remember some description from a story about one of the "great Indian migrations," perhaps the "Trail of Tears" one, but the details there were quite probably wrong, and at this point I don't even recall a title - or whether it was from a purported history or from a fictionalization. (It was something I read while young, which was a very long time ago.)

How does a travelin' man "keep the home fires burinin'?"

John

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:26 AM

It's the same old story... something is so common, so well known and so often done by the general populace, that no-one thinks it necessary to write it down.

How many books on childcare were there in the 18th Century? Not a great many I should think... because everyone did it at some point.. they cared for siblings, cousins, neighbours' children, then their own, whom they taught by example to look after their siblings etc.,

Suddenly, in the middle of the 20th Century, there's a great surge in childcare stuff, because people are no longer living in their small communities and caring for siblings, cousins etc.. People don't pass on the knowledge because they never got it themselves. Soon, we'll have to have childcare lessons for every pregnant family.

No-one bothered to write down exactly how the fire was carried because they never thought there would come a time when it could be carried any other way.

I'm not sure which method I favour.. the slow match or the smouldering coals. Of course, it could just have been a plain old boring flaming torch, renewed throughout the march and used to kindle cooking fires and such when camp was made, or for lighting the signal fires when necessary.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

JohniK, I've wondered if pottery was 'invented' because someone carried their coals in a wet-clay lining of a basket or something.

A field near where I was raised had a strata of lignite coal close to the surface, and people in hard times would dig it out, to the indignation of the owner. About 1955 the strata cought fire and burned for several months. Just smoke coming from holes in the ground. Stuff like that might have been familiar to primitive peoples.
'Carrier of the Coals' would have been a good job for a oldster or cripple. Retained status and solid contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:12 PM

Who knows? Who cares? They had fire. That's what the Vestal Virgins were for. They kept the fires burning so there was always fire. It was easy to carry and pass on. Heck! Maybe it was the Primordial Fire from Prometheus himself!

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:58 AM

I should think that they rubbed 2 Sabine women together!!

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

I am not going to start a new thread for my question.... maybe it will get picked up in here.

My partner has been wondering out loud for something like 5 years, why Tea lights are so named.

I think it was because they were used in some way underneath tea pot in Victorian times to keep the tea warm. But then the cozy would catch fire. Did they have cozies in Victorian times?

So anyone have any ideas? Why is that little aluminium wrapped candle called a tea light?

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM

You got it VirginiaTam! They kept the water hot!

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: john f weldon
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

I just noticed Bee calling for me months ago!

The only thing I can think of is a film I worked on in 1970 (written by Don Arioli, and directed by Zlatko Grgic, an early mentor!), called "Hot Stuff" which contains a very unlikely history of fire.

Here's a Youtube version...

Hot Stuff

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Mar 09 - 11:51 PM

wonderful - thanks for posting, John.
sandra

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:10 AM

Yes, John, thank you. That was excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Gurney - PM
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

JohniK, I've wondered if pottery was 'invented' because someone carried their coals in a wet-clay lining of a basket or something.

I don't think it would be very likely. The chemical transformation which permanently changes clay into a rock-like form that won't dissolve in water occurs at about 700°F. Coals aren't quite that hot. It's more likely that pottery was 'invented' by broken or worn out clay-lined baskets being thrown into campfires.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:56 PM

They would have got a slave to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

They used fork handles.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:28 AM

The best little fire starter I've seen is a little air tight cylinder with a piston that you hit with your palm. Put a bit of dried grass or straw in it and bang the piston. The resulting compression of air and friction ignites the straw inside if you pull the piston out quick enough.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:47 PM

I've never seen anyone claim that a bit of pot was a fire pot on TimeTeam. But I do recall reading that there was a tribe somewhere with a surprising number of cancers which turned out to be exactly on the spot of skin which abutted the fire carrying device. I'm not sure if it was a pot or a hollow piece of bamboo. i also seem to recall that the fire was damped: not wetted, but enclosed so that very little air could get in, and the embers smouldered only. Never tried it, though.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:02 PM

I think the expression I wanted was banking up the fire. One of our fireplaces came with a ceramic cover to put over the embeers at night so that the fire smouldered, but was ready to light up fast in the morning.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:27 PM

Donuel... the fire piston that I assume you mean was posted by Rapaire back in Jan.

I had never seen one before...but I am fascinated, because the wood used to make the one shown is TulipWood, one of the Rosewoods. (Dalbergia frutescens or Dalbergia variabilis )

I just may have to see if I can make one of it or some relevant wood.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:18 PM

I saw the fire piston on Survivorman (discovery channel). He was impressed too.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 06:31 AM

The Romans had glass, but they never thought of lenses.
Astronomy and microbiology would be centuries ahead if only they had.

I visited the East West border in Germany before unification.
We were strictly admonished not to "show sur arses" to the East German guards.

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:14 AM

Bill D, when I saw that link yesterday, with the picture of the fire piston, my immediate thought was, "That's something Bill D ought to look into making. Looks like right up his alley!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:19 AM

Re: Roman lenses. Nero is reputed to have used an emerald as a quizzing glass. Lucian of Samosata in an early SF tale of travelling to the Moon refers to the lunar inhabitants having put a glass structure over a crater to use to observe the earthlings. I am told. These would suggest that lenses had been thought of, if not developed.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:27 AM

I have been falsely informed with regard to Lucian. It was a shallow well and a mirror, so a reflecting rather than a refracting telescope. But Nero remains.

Lucian, scroll down

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: How did the Romans light candles?
From: John P
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 12:38 PM

Q: How many sisters from yon abbey does it take to light a candle?

A: Nun