Ethics in archiving?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:19 PM

Ray Alden's address now sent.
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:49 PM

Thanx muchly ... I'd appreciate that. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

I can PM you Ray Alden's email address if you like, Bob
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

It seems their website is down right now ... I'll keep looking for it. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

Thanks ... I'll look into it. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Why don't you get in touch with Ray Alden and join the Field Recorders Collective? They've been doing this for years - collecting recordings of the old musicians, at first for their own pleasure, but increasingly for the benefit of posterity. The recordings end up with the public and any profits go to surviving family members. There's currently a thread discussing and NPR recording of a program about them.
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

A hundred years ago, when I was younger, I used to live in the Santa Cruz mountains of California. While there I made a baby and I taught him to walk in "Cowell State Park." This was a precious place of giant redwood trees, many animals and much piece and quiet. Every weekend morning he and I explored the park and played and played and played.

I re-visted the park in 1972 (when I was a little older) and decided to walk the familiar trail my son and I enjoyed. This time I took along a tape recorder and recorded the sounds I heard. When I play the tape today, I hear the water in the creek fading away as the trail moved away from the creek bed, I hear many birdses, I hear the wind in the trees, but most of all, I hear the silence and peacefullness of that magical place.

To me, this is also part of recording, or documenting, those things that have so influenced us. bob(Deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

For the benefit of those folks who are unaware of some collector/archivists who had a similar problem can I refer you to another posting on this forum under Field Recorders Collective.
These guys do a great job with their material.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:59 AM

Malcolm,

I think you've pretty well covered it, or my understanding of it anyway. Just to add that the new CDs will likewise be called Voice of the People. Also, if I've got it correct, I think they're going to be issued as several seperate multi disc compilations, rather than, as with the original VOTPs, which of course were sold as stand alones.   

BTW., As far as I know and am pretty certain, the original tapes were wiped and reused after the recordings were transferred to shellac. Sounds atrocious I know. But that was pretty standard archiving practice in those days, the cost of tape being horrendous.

BTW also, I'm currently working my way through the pile of Folktrax cassettes which were given to me as part of Keith Summers' record collection. To describe them as pluperfect awful is to use the understatment of the century. Lousy sound, unreadable photocopied non-existant notes, and mix and match splicing like there's no tomorrow. On one cassette, a single track has been collated from 22 splices of 10 different recordings.

And of course, in most cases there's no indication as to who the collector was, and buggar all information on the people who gave him the recordings.

Also, like cheap cassettes everywhere, these things drag and skew on the slightest provocation. You can get some very startling noises when that happens. EG., a cassette of West African guitarists comes to mind. It plays fine on side 1. Turn it over and the guitar becomes intermittantly inaudible. In its place I can hear, quite distinctly, a concertina playing a morris dance tune!

Roll on the new VOTPs - and the return of sanity.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

Re. Peter Kennedy.

In answer to Jim Martin, I'm not sure who he means by 'they' (the BBC, perhaps?) but Sheffield University doesn't have the expertise or the resources to undertake digital archiving of the materials in its own possession, let alone anybody else's. As Jim Carroll has said, there are already digital copies of the Kennedy sound archive, though these were made from acetate copies rather than from the original tapes. The fate (and perhaps location) of the tapes themselves was unclear last I heard, but that was before Kennedy died.

So far as current ownership of the Kennedy materials is concerned, CAMSCO has copies of the Kennedy compilations as edited and issued by him on cassette and, later, CD, and is continuing, for the time being, to sell CDR copies of these under license. As agreed with Kennedy, these are 'as is' and have not been re-mastered. Kennedy's copies of the original recordings are now the property of Topic Records; they plan to issue a series of selections from those, suitably re-mastered, on the lines of the Voice of the People set. My understanding is that the BBC has no problem with this. The material they don't include will then be available under license to CAMSCO. This presumably applies only to the recordings made by Kennedy himself, not to those made by others as part of the BBC project, though he also had copies of those and included material from them on his own compilations. Some of the latter material (recordings made in Hampshire by Bob Copper, for example) has already featured in the Voice of the People set.

This, at least, is what I understand to be the present situation. Dick Greenhaus and Fred McCormick know a lot more about it than I do.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:06 AM

My brother I were talking tonight and he mentioned a WIRE recording I sent him in 1952, when he was stationed in the Philippines. He says he still has it, but I doubt I could even find a working "WIRE RECORDER" today. I think I remember mine was a "Bell and Howell." I was talking with another archivist the other day and he reminded me that the method we used to use to repair broken wires was to tie the pieces together in a square knot and then burn the knot with a cigarrete to smooth the edges! How's that for high tech. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:33 PM

Hijack alert again. Sorry!

Jim. I could do some digging around for you. I retired two years ago, but, still have a few contacts.
Early 80's you say? Might get lucky. If you could provide as much info as possible, approx broadcast dates, network. (I'm assuming Radio here), particularly useful would be a producers name (Some producers kept safety copies of their progs, presumably not trusting the system to keep them safe!!).
By the 1980s, more care was being taken with recorded programmes.
Nowadays in a tapeless world. All programmes are stored direct to a Humungous server, that can be accessed by a producer (for editing purposes anywhere within the BBC.) God knows how many TerraBytes is stored. Talk about mindboggling!
So, get in touch mate!

And Bob. Yes you are right. It doesn't bear thinking about how much priceless stuff is lying around in peoples attics! If you think about it most people in the (western world) had some sort of personal recording device, Walkman etc from the late 60s onwards....there must be millions of hours of stuff out there!
So, In a way, more recordings are bound to survive today, than in previous generations. Not many people had wax cylinder recorders at the beginning of the 20th century did they?! Interesting topic though. Thanks for raising it
Cheers Ralph

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:51 PM

If archiving the Kennedy collection is such a big job, why don't they outsource some of it to somewhere like Sheffield University is it that does folk archive stuff?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:40 PM

I heard part of that and intended to go look for the link to listen to the entire thing. How timely, thanks for the link, Stew!

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

Heard on npr this evening:

Saving Folk History, One Recording At A Time

interesting!

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Good for you, Art. I'm with you all the way.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

I'm sticking by my earlier post! I did what I did---and I can't be bothered by revisionist history value judgments made by our musical Taliban at this late date.

Love to you all,

Art

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

You know, I don't think you've "highjacked" this thread at all. I suspected when I posted these questions that others would be interested.

This whole area of collections and archiving is going to become more and more noticed as we get older. If little old me, hidden deep within the woods of Northwest America, has a tape collection of some historical value, then think about the MILLIONS of other recordings that lie waiting to be dicovered. EH? Bob(deckman)Nelson ... still in Everett ... where the dogs still run slower than the cats ... mostly!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

Ralphie,
Thanks for that insider information - perhaps you are in the position to provide me with some more.
Were would I go to find out if programmes I am interested in were still in existence am interested in 1 in particular which was made in the early 80s (I think)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

Oh and Bob (Deckman) Sorry to Hi Jack your thread. If I were you. Archive and be damned!!!! Good Luck!!
Ralph
PS anybody got 100 Dat machines? LOL!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:06 AM

Putting on Ex BBC hat here!
What Jim says is factually true.
Since the Mid 90's there has been a project to collate all the various recordings held by the Beeb. It started with digitising all the Peel sessions, followed by Andy Kershaw sessions, and then any Live concerts that still existed. It was such a success that a couple of years ago it was decided to archive the whole shebang!
Talk about painting the Forth bridge!
The only problem is what still exists. It's very true that when tape first appeared it was very expensive, and needed re-cycling. Normally this would be done by various producers, but, ultimately by an Archive panel, who decided what was and what was not worth keeping!!
So, Churchill speeches made the cut, but many other recordings went to the great reclamation site in sky. (Brooklands Park, actually.!!)

It was all a bit hit and miss, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Kennedy collection has bitten the dust as far as the Beeb is concerned. (Remember Acetate discs are not only fragile but very heavy in bulk!)

As far as tapes in skips is concerned, This came to light when working on the Nic Jones re-issue CD's. Having contacted the team that worked on Folk On 2 before it became outsourced to Smooth Operations , I was informed that having been wound up, there was nowhere to put the hours of recordings so.....the inevitable happened.

As an example, of the 8 Nic Jones Peel sessions, only 1 survived.

If you would care to check out the Peel Sessions book, at the end, there are 100 pages listing (as far as is humanly possible) every Peel session ever recorded. Dates Times etc, etc...

With about 25 bands to a page. Each band doing four songs or more. Well you work it out. Well at a rough guess, that's 100 times 100 = 10,000 songs.   And that's just 1 Programme!!!

Yes, I know that we're talking a rock programme, not folk, but it's a well documented example of the sheer volume of material that has been recorded over the last 80 years.....Anyone want to work out 70 years of Promenade concert recordings? Or Friday Night Is Music Night? or The Organist Entertains, ITMA?)

As to what has survived of the Kennedy collection. Who knows. The archive team (about 10 of them I think. not much of a budget!), have probably only just got into the 1930s.... So maybe they'll turn up, (whats left of them) in about 2040. Remember you have to play these things in real time!!!!

so, I look forward to hearing them on the other side of the veil!

Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

Thank you Jim for the information and the way you presented it.
There is an old saying in sales and marketing that says that "You must never assume everyone knows about your product just because you do".
I suspect I am not the only one who does not know about this collection or the wonderful sound archives in the British Library Sound archive department.
So much to learn ,so little time
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:22 AM

Alan,
Sorry - missed a bit;
The recordings do not include interviews, or very few of them.
One of the great 'black holes' in our knowledge of folk song is due to the fact that most collectors never thought it worthwhile to discuss songs and singers with their informants, preferring to draw their own conclusions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:06 AM

Alan,
The BBC in conjunction with EFDSS initiated a collecting project some time in the early 1950s - have the details here somewhere.
Peter Kennedy was appointed head of the project and fellow collectors included Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis and Bob Copper.
During the period of its activity several thousand items were recorded, songs, stories tunes, folklore - you name it.
The recordings were catalogued and put onto acetate discs - a set was housed at the BBC and another at Cecil Sharp House; the Northern Ireland BBC also had a copy.
Some of the recordings formed the basis for a series of programmes, 'As I Roved Out' presented by Kennedy, and appeared in a few others such as MacColl's 'The Song Carriers'.
The BBC then appeared to lose interest in the collection, and without their permission or that of any of the performers, Peter Kennedy, who had somehow acquired a copy, began to issue them commercially on his company 'Folktrax'. Because of who he was, nobody did anything about this, and he continued to sell them (mainly unmastered poor quality cassettes) right up to his death a few years ago. Kennedy's set of the recordings are now the (legal - I understand) property of Camsco (Dick Greenhaus).
I do not know the state of play with the BBC recordings, though I think they still exist, partially anyway. They occasionally put in an appearance, usually to be taken the piss out of by people who know nothing about folk music (The Rambling Sid Rumpo Syndrome).
A full set, now digitised, still exists at Cecil Sharp House, accompanied by a magnificent annotated catalogue.
Over the last few years the Dublin based Irish Traditional Music Archive, and (I think)The Folklore Department at UCD have acquired sets of the Irish material - I don't know if the School of Scottish Studies have the Scots material, but they should have.
The collection comprises the finest set of field recordings of British song and music ever made - excuse my surprise in your not knowing about it and the circumstances surrounding it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Nick E
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:57 PM

Well this is a can of worms! Delightful!
When it comes to ethics in archiving, ARCHIVE AWAY!
If there is profit from the publication of the archive, that is another story . No leagal reason not to archive as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:02 PM

Jim which recordings are you referring to by the BBC?
All the Folk recordings of the fifties,including interviews with demonstration tracks? I also understand from Ralphie that many archive recordings also ended up in skips.If someone like Peter Kennedy did reissue many surely we should be praising him for making them available.
I ask these questions out of interest for the project I am working on,not to try and make it an issue of your posting.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

I suspect that as us "olde folkies" continue to age, many more of us will be coming to grips with the question of what to do with our odds and ends of recordings. One of the collections that has been passed onto me was from a long time friend in Santa Cruz, California. I literally took two boxes of reel to reel tapes from the trash heap headed for the dump. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money."
No they weren't.
They were filched and re-issued by Peter Kennedy, but a full set - now digitised, can be accessed at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House - London.
Not to say that they are in the best of health, but last time I was there they were still listenable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM

I can only say well done Rowan for your attitude regarding these recordings.You do not have do record with profit in mind.I add my appreciation also to all the players ,some professional, that do U Tube recordings for free downloads,including tutoring.It is all adding to the wealth of recordings to be passed on to future generations of styles music and tastes of today.What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money.Others are deteriorating as I write this so it is hoped that many will do something about it and save them before they are lost forever.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.

Given that Alan is trying to produce a CD that is marketable to a modern generation I can sympathise with him but there are other valuable functions of recordings that have the occasional bum note, dog bark or police siren in among the music.

In the mid 70s the most frequent (and reliably scheduled) bush dances in SE Oz were the Monaro Folk Music Society's monthly dances in Canberra's Yarralumla Woolshed; woolshed dances feature prominently in SE Oz social traditions. After the dance it was usual for singers and musos to repair to someone's place for a session into the small hours. Seeral of these were held at Mike Jackson's place in Higgins and Tony Suttor brought his 5" Sony R-R recorder along to at least two of these and taped quite a lot of music. While the materials were good the setup was rather basic so, while the music was clear, the quality wasn't really acceptable on a commercial basis.

These subsequently appeared, and were passed from person to person, as cassettes colloquially known as "The Higgins Tapes" (they were still surfacing more than a decade later) with the advice, "If you learn these tunes, you'll be able to join 60% of tunes at almost any folk session in the country." They were almost all dance tunes and formed the basis of many brackets played by bush dance bands all over Oz. They also featured prominently in Talunga Music's "Begged, Borrowed and Stolen", a published (and still available) collection of sheet music for tunes that have the same function.

Almost every player on the original tapes (me included) has had a fine career in the (mainly) Oz folk music scene but none, to my knowledge, has ever sought payment or even acknowledgement; nobody made any money out of the production or distribution of the tapes and everybody regarded their distribution as a way of getting people playing. Even now, I can wander into the Session Bar at the National and recognise some brackets as having had their origin on those tapes so their quality didn't appear to hamper their function one little bit.

But, as I commented above, some cultural contexts encourage this while others encourage other aspects. I recently saw a couple of animated cartoons that some Mudcatters might recognise; "Creature Comforts" uses 'vox pops on many topics and puts people's voices with clay animations. The series recorded in the UK (which I suspect is the original) credits "The voices of the great British public" while the series recorded in the US lists the names of all the people whose voice was used.

Horses for courses. All power to your elbow, Bob.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:32 PM

Mark ... YES I KNOW, I KNOW!!! The minute I posted that I said someting like &^^$#$#%&^# ... or words to that effect. Thank you. bob, who is hanging his head in deep shame and looking at the gravel at his feet!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

By the way, Bob, I'm Mark Ross, the bum in Eugene, Oregon(formerly of Butte, Montana). The editor of Sing Out! is Mark MOSS.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Well . . . yeah.

If one is combing through old open-reel or cassette tapes of song fests, hoots, and such in an effort to extract pristine recordings of songs sung by a particular singer or group of singers to put on a CD, one might be faced by a great deal of frustration. However, if what one is trying to do is preserve recordings of songs, people, and the events at which they occurred, then the opening door with new people arriving, the barking dog, a bit of conversation, especially that which occurred between songs, wise-cracks and by-play, is all part of that event.

In some cases, one wishes to preserve such a recording "unsanitized."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.It is extremely frustrating listening to some remarkable playing with someone suddenly opening and closing a squeaky door,large objects being dropped to the floor,a dog barking,a child crying,a coughing fit and talking,which is just part of the frustration.Even without one of these noises the artist can make a mistake.With modern equipment this can be sorted out, the mistake erased and a passage, where he or she does get it right, can be inserted in.Some remarkable work was done to get Andrew Blakeny Edwards tracks suitable for the Anglo Collection, the original was nothing like the final recording used.
Continuous background noise can also be taken out such as humming ,crackling or even tape disintegration by modern computer methods.Likewise 78 recordings by using different methods like special needles or computer cleaning,can almost bring these recordings back to their original state.One of the most important things to remember is that the noise before the recording starts MUST be retained.This is used in the computer process and any hum crackle etc can be programmed into the computer from that section to remove that noise.
Jim Ward Crawley Sussex is an expert at this sort of work and did a wonderful job with the old archive recordings.
The method I use which may help is that on each cassette I write down those recordings (either by track number or by tune name )which are possibilities.I assure you after a few hours of it the good recordings stand out.When all the tapes have been listened to.Just extract those ones which you liked and then listen to the best as a package.Once again certain tracks will outshine the others.In this way you finish up with a final line up and it is then that recording doctoring may be required.
I hope this info help a little bit for those of you contemplating this type of project.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:02 AM

"You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself. "
Absolutely - and for those you'll be giving the opportunity to hear the recordings in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:17 AM

Thanks Maggie. In the next few days I'll be PMing you about these matters. I know you're sitting on your Father's collection, anticipating that moment in your life when you also have the necessary time to devote the archiving. I well remember the size of your Father's collection ... immense. I'm sure that over the many years John influenced me and guided me toward the path I'm on. (I miss him every day). Hugs ... Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:15 AM

I hope this thread won't actually close, other questions or remarks may come in that are useful. But clearly you've taken this under advisement and gotten the reinforcement you needed.

Good luck, Bob. You probably made the best choices overall. (Especially about "asking family." That's a landmine if there ever was one.) You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself.

Maggie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

O.K. It's time for me to bring this thread to a close, a conclusion. I appreciate ALL the input this topic received. It's clear to me that it did resonate with many people. And like I expected, the comments were all over the map.

The comments I received were an education in themselves ... that's one of the values of an open discussion. Here's where I am tonight:

1. I am putting aside ALL questions/concerns regarding legal issues, copyrites, etc. My efforts will result in NO GAIN for myself. I'm not "selling" anything. I appreciated Utah Phillips comment (thanks Mark Ross ... "if you wanna' make $1,000 in folk music, start with #2,000).

2. Some one said, several folks actually, "just do it and worry about the details later."

3. A lot of folks mentioned how polite it would be to get "family permission" before I archived the material. I'm now saying that I won't bother. These are MY tapes, I made them, I have them, and I'm going to archive them and place them in the public domain for future reference. If family members, or anyone else objects ... SO SUE ME!

4. I am making myself available to other people in the Seattle area who are seriously interested in these archiving issues. At my age of 171 years, I know there are now many other song collectors out there that are dealing with the same questions.

I had a conversation with Pete Seeger probably 13 years ago and that talk led to a conversation with Mark Ross, of Sing Out magazine. We were all talking about these archive questions. Where do we leave the stuff we've garnered ... if I just leave it to my kids, it'll just end up in the dump ... what should we do with it? On and on and on.

So ... I have decided to archive it as best I see fit. I'll now put on my hard hat, steel toed boots, flak jacket, scout out the back door, and hold my breath for your comments. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

SRS ... "Printer Friendly" eh? If I'd had access to that years ago I could probably have saved my first marriage! Ya think? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Bob, if you go to the top and click on "printer friendly" then you'll get all of the posts in a manner that is easy to print out, without all of the html and busy message breaks.

Make your notes then come back and post the pared down remarks (you can save the printer friendly version as a text file on your computer and edit it, you know).

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

I've been trying to wrap up this thread witha kind of summation, but as you all know, MC has been more down than up lately. Patience is required ... NOT my strong suit. In fact, I don't even think I have a STRONG SUIT. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

Oops--I see that Art has been here. Well, I hope he keeps participating!

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:06 PM

Bob, when Dad died I spoke with several people and had some useful advice offered. Three different universities in the region have programs that would be good repositories--the University of Washington for one, and I think it was UBS where Phil housed his collection, and there is also a good program in Calgary. A little far away, but also one to consider. There is the more generalized music collection there at the Seattle Center/Worlds Fair site (I know Dad would cringe to think I donated his material to go in the same location as Jimi Hendrix, but hey, the world is changing).

The point is to not lose track of it in a dusty musty mildewy corner of your garage somewhere. Make your intents known to people and make arrangements for someone to do something with it if you don't get a chance to finish the work you're planning on.

I hope Art Thieme will notice this thread, because he has been doing exactly what you're talking about with his collection. He took about a year, I think, and put it all from cassettes and other media onto CDs.

If you donate a collection to someplace like a museum or university, they have tons of stuff, so unless you give them some money (an endowment) to move it to the front of the list, the collection might not be processed and available to the public and to researchers for a long time to come. So if there is a way to use some of the material in the collection to raise money for that endowment, I think you should explore the possibilities of permission and keeping it all legal and ethical.

I had started processing Dad's collection several years ago, and then we had a burglary here that threw all of that work into chaos. I was sidetracked, but have, through the process of de-cluttering the house (you've probably noticed that steady trickle of discussion down in the BS section) have been making a good workspace to resume that one of these days. And then I'll compare notes with you on recordings. We may have some duplicates, because I know people gave Dad tapes and I know he gave people copies.

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

To M. Ted ... Thanks for your thoughts. I'm now pondering several options I have available for the final placement of my collection. None of my children are interested in preserving, or maintaining, the collection. And it is a huge responsibility. There are several local organizations that are beginning to step up to the plate, as well as at least two national groups.

At the moment, I don't know where I'm going to place it ... I'll be looking forward to the day when I can pass it on to someone/something responsible. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

I just re-read your original post, and have been thinking about what a wonderful and amazing collection that you have amassed. It has a great historical value, and it is a history that hasn't been very much told.

I hope I don't need to tell you that you should keep the original tapes. No matter how good the digital recording may be, it is just a picture of the original.

Also, there's a lot more work than just transcribing--the recordings will have to be documented--I know that people will have hundreds of questions about every song--

My suggestion is that you should ultimately shoot for putting the collection online, in the fashion of the Library of Congress--it would mean sending out letters and getting permission, etc, but it would also mean that we all could hear what you've got--

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

To Guest Jon ... I too have seen on several occasions where the presence of a recorder stifled the music. But I have seen the instrument cases of the musicians close ONLY when the musician considered himself a "professional," meaning that he was quite above such common taping. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:48 AM

I'd think, go with the peoples wishes on 1&2. I'm not suggesting you seek permission from everyone concerned but if someone did object, I think dropping that song would be in order.

I'd guess a key point in how to think about it could be what the terms were when you recorded. I've been in a few sessions for example where there is a recorder(s) running but even though I have one and use it once in while, I find their presence a touch off putting. My general belief though is that people (including me) want to get the tune down for learning within the group and the thing is fundamentally a private affair. Personally, if I believed my every bum note, etc. was to be recorded for public posterity, I'd down tools and drink at the bar for the rest of the night.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:04 AM

Here in the West of Ireland we are in the process of establishing a county-wide heritage organisation, including a sound and manuscript archive and a reference library, mainly of traditional material (music, song, story, lore, oral history etc). The current popularity of and serious respect for Irish music has made it possible to apply for and get substantial government grants for such projects. We don't know how this will be effected by the current economic situation, but to date we have purchased a house and enough equipment to get us up and running. We have also been awarded a number of grants for acquiring and archiving both sound, manuscript an published material.
Some of us have been acquiring collections of recordings for decades for various workshops and clubs we have been involved in and we have donated copies to the new organisation, which has enabled it to hit the ground running - so to speak. Local people have been magnificent in donating private recordings, photographs etc to our rapidly expanding collection.
Hopefully, some time this year we will be up and running, with a fully operational and equipped visitors centre and access to our collection through our web-site (once we have sorted out the practical and 'ethical' nuts-and-bolts).
There is a Dublin based organisation whose brief is to assist in the setting up of organisations such as ours; without their help we would still be floundering in the shallows.
Who said folk music is just about having fun and getting pissed each week!!!
My wife and I have spent the last thirty odd years recording some of the last of the older generation of singers, storytellers and musicians. The abiding impression we have come away with during that time has been the breathtaking and eye-watering generosity of those people, many of them on and below the poverty line, with their time, material, knowledge, opinions and experiences. Without them, and people like them, we would have nothing. I can never remember anybody we met saying "you can't have that, that's mine".
In the light of their attitude to what they have given us, I find the idea of somebody copyrighting an 'arrangement' of a folk song extremely distasteful, dishonest and above all, incredibly petty (are these songs really worth so much as to have to lock them away in a safe?) All folk music, by its very nature, is somebody's arrangement. If our field singers, storytellers and musicians had taken the line of 'ownership' displayed here and elsewhere our songs and music would have disappeared centuries ago; as Norfolk traditional singer Walter Pardon once told us "They're not my songs, they're everybodys".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:02 PM

As one who occasionally recorded sessions (singing as well as instrumental) and was occasionally recorded by others in such circumstances I've found the thread interesting.

From Bob's original post, as well as some subsequent ones, it seems clear that participants were all aware they were being recorded; on that basis one could reasonably infer that implicit "permission to record" had been granted by all the active participants. Similarly, an implicit "permission to distribute, for personal use rather than for commercial gain", may also be inferred.

So long as the material is used for "personal" (rather than "commercial") purposes, Bob would be staying on the right side of Oz law as I understand it but, as has been pointed out (by McGrath?) there is a chasm between ethical propriety and legal rectitude. Oz law currently allows copying of audio and visual sources from one format to another, providing it is for personal use or for some types of educational use.

Someone suggested keeping tracks separate. While this might allow convenient search routines and might also allow compliance with some aspects of Oz copyright law applying to copying, it seems to me that many "students" of such material would benefit from having the context of tracks preserved; knowing which items were associated at particular times with others or with particular sessions or groups of participants is the stuff of academic excitement.

Being associated with academic activities I suppose I'm biased but I'd strongly recommend depositing a copy of your archived material in a place that allows others to access it for research purposes; in Oz we are lucky to have such institutions as the National Film and Sound Archive (although it goes under a "sexier" name these days) and the Percy Grainger Museum; the latter might be a serious contender with the Smithsonian for "earliest ethnographic recording" as Grainger was one of the first using wax cylinders for field recordings of music us folkies are interested in.

But there also seems to be different (and national) cultural blinkers applied to archiving; google "auslii" in Oz for a list of everything legal in Oz but not replicable with US material.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

What a time capsule! I just finished listening to a recording I made in 1957 ... I didn't remember that I had it. This was of a man who took me under his wing when I was 13.

Have you noticed that I'm NOT mentioning ANY NAMES on this thread ... there's a reason for that.

To hear my mentor's voice again brought me to tears. As Alan Day just said in the previous posting ... these private collections are treasures. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

It is the private archives of collectors that are becoming very valuable to the Folk Scene.Many artists have been taken for granted that they will be around forever.Old cassettes in peoples lofts contain archive recordings of players that have never recorded and are deteriorating daily. A couple of artists work would have been lost forever had they had not been used and computer cleaned for the recent collection I have been working on.I understand that the recent Tony Rose CD is made up of old live recordings many from private sources..If there is an important recording to the Folk World or any other musical World,that all efforts are made to source the family or the artist,then in my opinion it should be used.There is very little money to be made but the value to the listeners is worth much more.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

Bob - the same rules would apply.    An assumption is made that if you send out recordings that you have ownership and rights approval - and that is something that would have been discussed before airplay. Should I have played something and received a complaint, it could get sticky - but the reality is the best that could be accomplished would be to cease airplay.

Just to give you an example, I recently received a CD from the State of Florida which contained recordings made at a Florida Folk Festival over the years.    I assume that the rights were cleared and by submission I have permission to play them.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

I'm not a lawyer but I'd like to play one on TV.

It seems to me that only a consultation with an attorney familiar with intellectual property law will put your mind at ease. There may well be a legally recognized difference between, say, placing your recordings in a university archive, making a handful of copies to be given free to your friends, and stamping out thousands of CDs for aggressive sale on the Internet.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

Ron ... Back on September 14, 2001, you asked me by PM if I would send you some of these "hoot" tapes so you might play them on radio show. I didn't then as I was still working and had little time for my archiving. If I had sent them, and if you had broadcast them, I'm wondering how that use might have conflicted with issues that have been raised on this thread? Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

I don't think "ethics" are a nuisance, it is just that everyone has a different standard of what ethics should be - and an application that doesn't always relate to the circumstance.

Our friends on the other side of the ocean have different laws.   I'm also a bit surprised by what seems to be a philosophy that "the ends justify the means" - an effort to preserve overlooking the rights and common courtesy that should be extended.   Alan's mention of a concertina recording is a good example - if it becomes a "hit" (probably when pigs learn to fly!), then the same "O Brother Where Art Thou" scenario takes effect. (I stand corrected on the Library of Congress efforts to pay royalties. There are other examples of these efforts as well.)

I do believe if there is concern, a copyright lawyer should be consulted, not a bunch of us altercockers here on Mudcat. It is all opinion,loosely based on personal experiences, and it is obvious that each of us have different experiences.   Going back to the original post, I don't think that in the U.S. a "hobby" type archiving is going to ruffle any feathers or land anyone in jail for infringement on rights issues.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

"Ethics" certainly are a nuisance aren't they! bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:54 AM

Ethics I think have gone the way of Israel and Iran!!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:32 AM

Sorry - ignore my last posting - too early in the morning!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:05 AM

Thanks for the advice EBarnacle, but it is slightly more complicated,these are not my recordings, but the player's.It forms part of a collection of his playing assembled by his Father and then two cassette copies left to two people in his will.There is very little money involved here, if any,there are so many artists and the costs of assembly so high that the collections just about cover the costs.If however they took off, or one of these recordings became a hit (which I doubt) then it would involve more serious investigation.
My decision is to go for it,the recordings to the Concertina World are too important not to include them.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 AM

"I'll post my decision."
Opinion, surely? - unless you happen to be one of the fingers of the cold, dead hand of commercialism or musical bureaucracy - god help us all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Just to clarify some things:

It was not the Smithsonian, but the Library of Congress, that dealt with the fellow whose recording was used in O Brother Where Art Thou. In almost all cases where we are dealing with old field recordings, it's the Library. The Smithsonian's folk music archives are primarily derived from Folkways and the other Moe Asch labels on the one hand, and their great festivals on the other. Because of that, most of their stuff came with explicit or implicit releases allowing them commercial use of the material; obviously Asch had such agreements with his artists, as Folkways was at least nominally a commercial enterprise, and the festival offers a pretty good gig in exchange for a signed release. But keep in mind also that every single year they have stellar, grammy-level talent like Beausoleil, and don't often release that stuff on CDs, so I suspect they are not getting artists to sign releases for every performance, and consequently cannot release many of the festival performances on CD.

The Library's a different story. We have collectors going back to the 1890s, when really no one was thinking about these issues. We have the first ethnographic field recordings in the world, in fact. Lomax and the other collectors of the 30s and 40s didn't usually obtain signed releases either. Many of our other collections came from amateurs on the one hand, and academics on the other--people who didn't even think about commercial issues when amassing their collections.

Even so, the Library does have to seek permission for every item we publish online or release on a CD, unless a signed release was obtained at the time of collection. The typical formula is to send a letter to the last known address requesting permission; if it comes back "unknown," you have made a good-faith attempt, and you file that returned letter as proof of the good-faith attempt. (If a researcher from outside the Library wants to publish any of our materials, then it falls to them to make the same kind of attempt.)

After the attempt is made, if there is no objection from an informant or descendant, the Library usually goes ahead with the publication. If it's an online presentation, material can always be removed if heirs turn up with objections. If it's a CD release, they're usually small batches and as a practical matter I don't think there's ever been a complaint to the Folklife Center after an item was published. (There have been objections from survivors of deceased performers that have prevented certain items from being played on the radio, on at least one occasion that I remember.)   

Keep in mind that the Library never makes any kind of profit, and is by nature educational and public. Any money we earn goes toward furthering our educational and archival missions, which are undertaken on behalf of the American people. Moreover, as several people have commented, the sums involved are tiny. The amount the singer would have made for mechanical royalties on a track of typical LC CD release wouldn't pay for the trouble of collecting it. So it would be hard to imagine people claiming any kind of "damages" unless (1) they are professional performers and the Library release might compete with one of their own CDs or (2) something was published that was downright embarrassing. Since the Library doesn't want to publish anything downright embarrassing, and knows how to avoid the other situation, the chances of a real conflict are slim. Nevertheless, the legal niceties are scrupulously observed.

All that said, Bob, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing, either ethically or legally. (I'm not a lawyer, though!) Until you start publishing or selling the material, no one could reasonably object. I agree that if you're going to give copies away, you should check with the performers if possible...especially with anyone who is a pro performer and has "official" CDs on the market. I think they'd be foolish to imagine your giveaways were competing, but it would be honorable for you to check with them.

Finally, I agree that a university library or other archive might be interested in your collection.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:37 PM

Alan, Your statement says a lot: "I have made every effort to trace him and I suspect he is no longer alive."

Even so, it would be worth your while to check with the copyright administering authority in the country where you recorded this person. They will probably advise you to put some money in escrow in case a member of the family asks for compensation.

You will have made fair provision and covered your own butt in case there is someone in the woodwork.

Codger, why not assume that Bob is honest and feels that he has something which should be disseminated in a limited manner. He is asking how to do so with no harm to anyone including himself. The advice immediately above applies to him, too.

Bob's situation is a bit murkier, though. The culture where he is/was permitted recording for private use. As such, there was no permit to disseminate. As such, he has to make an effort to contact the performers or their heirs. He can disseminate the recordings he gets permission to disseminate.

Beyond that, there MAY be reefs.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 PM

I'm getting a lot of serious information and opinions here and that pleases me. Soon, within the next couple of days, I'm going to attempt a "summary" of the postings and reach a decision. I'll post my decision. Thanks everyone. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:00 PM

Had they not tampered with the copyright laws in the U.S. (particularly with the infamous Bono act), many things would have slipped freely into the public domain after a reasonable period for the writers and performers to profit as they chose. But cold commercialism, widespread copyright abuse, greedy litigators (it only takes one to ruin you) and copyright laws unfavorable to "folk evolution" are facts of modern life--ignore them at your own risk. If the laws bother you, why not raise a stink with your congressfolks instead of shooting the messenger?

As for why the Smithsonian and Library of Congress can make their recordings available, (1) they or the collectors mostly obtained signed releases at the time of recording and (2) they enjoy special legal status.

Re the ethics of recording "for yourself": first, the decision whether to be recorded rests with the performer. Granted, as others have pointed out, in some environments permission is implicit by convention. This still does not automatically confer permission to use the recordings however you will. If you record without permission, or if you later decide to start copying those recordings for others, you've crossed into muddy ethical territory, and a possible legal morass as well.

Furthermore, why only after collecting thousands of such recordings for decades are these questions coming up? The thought of archiving them or trying to profit from them can't only now be arising--no one is that naive or stupid, and copyright is hardly a new or obscure issue. So it mostly sounds to me like someone trying to evade the restrictions which other serious collectors abide by, simply because he was too lazy to get releases then or in any of the years he's been recording since. If there is any "tragic loss" due to this negligence, the fault is solely his own.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:00 PM

Bob, if some or only one family member is opposed to the publication, then I think you would need to determine if they are entitled to object. Someone who is an executor of an estate would be in a position to say "yes." If the estate is completed, then perhaps simply finding a family member who is amenable. Not all estates last in perpetuity like Elvis'. If there are royalties, then you might have to go back to the original administrator.

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

I have an interesting situation,I have obtained very rare recordings of a player who is/was ,in my opinion, one of the best Duet Concertina players ever and only a lad when he did the recordings,shortly afterwards he stopped playing,after he was seriously ill with polio.I have made every effort to trace him and I suspect he is no longer alive.The recordings are so important they will probably be used, but with a bit of regret that unless he comes forward I shall never know if I made the right decision.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Ron,

Utah used to say, "You want to make a million dollars in Folk Music? Start with TWO Million!"

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 04:30 PM

"amplified memory" ... I like that. Could be an album title! Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:21 PM

...even if you are recording for yourself, you are ethically obligated to obtain explicit permission first.


I can't see where "ethics" comes into it. Surely ethics is about morality, and there is nothing immoral in recording something for yourself. It's just a kind of amplified memory, after all.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I think the Smithsonian reference may have referred to the fact that I allowed their National Museum Of American History to archive, at their request, the slides/photos I took on the folk scene and environs over the years.

Those, plus a few hundred more that weren't slides, are at Bruce Kallick's website, mainly in the album titled "People" at:
http://rudegnu.com/art_thieme.html

Art

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

Even so, distribution is publication. If you distribute, the owner of the performance is entitled to fair notice.

For example, Gordon Bok allows me to record his material at performances. He has stipulated that the material is his copyright and will not be distributed without his permission. This includes traditional material or other author material which he sings. He makes sure that those people get compensated for their efforts.

When "The Lion King" came out, the family of the person who wrote the original song eventually won a battle over The Lion Sleeps Tonight, even though there had been substantial changes which had invalidated the original copyright. The person who wrote the original song had, in the intervening time, died in poverty.

Bob, your intent is laudable. The knowledge should be preserved. The performers should, at least, be able to authorize the use of their material.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

In re-reading Deckman's original post, I don't think there is anything at all wrong with what you are doing. You are not "publishing" these recordings or making them available for all in a library or online site. What you are doing is preserving a personal collection that you made decades ago. Your purpose is the same as it was originally, based on what you posted, and you received permission at the time when the individuals allowed you to record them.   There is no "ethical" question here.

This is very similar to what Virginia noted about her "home" movies and tapes.

Also, I agree with M.Ted concerning the ownership of the tape - but the performer does have a say in how it is used, unless it is expressed before hand. Otherwise, every single bootleg recording would be legal.

Deckman asked about Smithsonian. They do have "rights" issues that they deal with.   Probably the most famous example was the use of an Alan Lomax recording for "Brother Where Art Thou". They tracked down the singer who was recorded on field recording of a chain gang back in the 1950's to present him with a royalty check - a rather substantial one because of how the song was used.   Frankly, many royalites on their recordings are worth pennies and not worth anyones time to collect.   There are tens of dollars to be made in folk music.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

No Bob, I have followed the correct procedure and I have only received gratitude from family members.(Who get a copy FOC of the finished collection).
For current players most like to hear their recordings to approve them and of course get the necessary agreement on royalties etc Only a few have not answered my Emails, which I really cannot understand, as to be included in amongst the Worlds best and archive greats, is a bit of a short sighted attitude.
Some of the relations have become personal friends who I keep in touch with.
Bob a little tip, a full explanation of what you are trying to achieve and why you wish to include the recording,normally helps to dispel any fears of close relations to the artist.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

Alan Day ... Have you ever had a request DENIED by a family member. If so, could you maybe elaborate on the circumstances. This question is getting close to home. Thanks, Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

I have been involved with compiling Anglo, English & Duet Concertina Internationals (Duet due late this Year) and they consist of archive and current concertina players Worldwide.Some of the archives have been recorded privately and if the artist is alive then his or her permission to use the recording is requested.If the person is no longer alive then the relations of the artist are asked.If no information can be found they are used.These archives form a very important part of the collection,without these old tape recordings the artist,their music and style of playing would be lost forever.Most relations welcome and are very emotional that their relation is included in a collection featuring most of the Worlds top players past and present.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

Ethically speaking, was it wrong as a mom to videotape these events, without getting permission from a parent of every child participating?

What about the fact that the schools had to buy permissions to perform some of the songs as they were taking in money at concerts and recitals. What does that mean to the home videographer, simply wishing to save the event and potentially share within a tight circle of family and friends?

Seeing all the YouTube videos, I should think there would not be a problem. It cannot benefit big publishing companies to hunt down and level actions against not-for-profit use of copyright material. I also don't see how any subject or relative of a subject can hope to profit if the person who made the recordings is not profitting from making and copying the recordings.

Gods! I wish we could shut down the publishing companies and go back to the guild system. WANTED: 1 Patron or a consortium of patrons for talented folk singer. Will accept room, board and cast away clothes/shoes in lieu of pay.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:57 AM

"Sharing those performances - with or without pay, is illegal"
Can anybody clear up this statement; I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to the UK.
If it is the case in relation to folk music it goes to show how the (what did the man say about keeping his gun?) "cold, dead hand" of commercialism gets it grubby paws on everything.
If it had been the case in the past we wouldn't have 'folk' music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 02:54 AM

So the home videos I have of my daughters singing with school choirs and in university recitals that I am currently putting on to DVD and plan to send copies out to my family and some of their friends.

What happens if some of those kids are now professional paid singers/musicians one of them approaching famous. Could I be sued for doing this? I am just thinking about the lame shows that have clips of actors before they were famous. Where did those clips come from? Did someone have to get permission to release them/ Did they sell them?

It is all very worrying.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:12 AM

Interesting comments ... all over the map. Another question: How is it that recognized organizations, such as the Smithsonian Museum, and other recognised repositores get away with not just archiving, but also distributing and selling recordings on a large scale? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:00 AM

It's a subtle point, but, in fact, the owner of the tapes is the one who decides how the tapes are used. If they are used for commercial purposes, there are circumstances under which performers and others may have rights to compensation. It is also possible that, due to the circumstances of recording, the time and location of the original recording, and other circumstances, that none of the other rights are enforceable. The claimant has to be able to prove that their claims are valid.

Beyond that, not all reproduction and distribution is for profit--so there is plenty to argue about, and plenty for a judge to decide on, if anyone decides to make an issue of it.

Even beyond that, there is no money to be made here. If anything, it's going to take a big investment in time and money to make this project happen.

Artful Codger, and those who take this opportunity to make forceful statements about punitive damages and such things, unwittingly discourage the few people who have these wonderful documents from sharing them. Why risk expensive legal hassles? Better just to leave the stuff to rot.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

If I was the singer, (I'm not) I'd like a courtesy call before you made any money out of it.

If I was doing what you are, -and I am, but in a very small way,- I'd supply a copy to the artist as a matter of courtesy. An offer to his family, if he/she's gone, particularly for someone who achieved fame.

I'd separate the songs into individual files. This is a LOT more trouble to do than just digitising a session, but then you can cut out (or add in) whatever you want. Easier to do tape-to-computer than later, I think.

If I was doing what you are, in the big way, I'd keep a diary record of my hours and costs. Any moans, I'd ask for a pro-rata contribution.

Good for you, anyway, Bob.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 11:02 PM

"I think it is important to note that these were not public performances."

Not really any difference. You are recording an individual whether it is at the kitchen table or Carnegie Hall. Granted there are probabably fewer union regs to deal with in the kitchen.

"The recordings, and the rights to the recordings, belong to the person who made the recordings"

Not exactly. The person who made the recording only owns the physical tape and not the content. The voice that is recorded on it has rights, just as the composer and any musician on the recording. Unless you have a signed release, you cannot do with it as you see fit.

The "ethical" and "legal" way around this is to ATTEMPT to get permission from those who are on the recording, or their families. IF you do not have contact and cannot find them on the internet, you take your chance. In all probability there will be no issues, and the worst would be a request to remove the recording.   There is no cost involved, no money is exchanging hands, and no one needs to be "paid" for their release.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:44 PM

The recordings, and the rights to the recordings, belong to the person who made the recordings--lyricist/composer have rights as well, but that's it. The recordings are your property to do with as you see fit--

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:50 PM

I'll mark and read this entire thread later, but I'll drop in here with two cents worth.

Bob, I've received royalties for some of Dad's songs, modest amounts from performers who contacted me about it. I wouldn't have known, otherwise, because I haven't done a search. It was nice to get the recognition.

I have boxes and boxes and reels and reels of the same stuff you do. And I would never ask for compensation for any of Dad's performances on those tapes of yours, and would hope the courtesy would be mutual all around with the core group of folks who are likely on those tapes. No one is going to get rich with any of those performances, but they might help fund a scholarship or endowment some day, to support the collection or a family member, and I would like to see anyone who can master such a performance put the funds to that use.

Deciding to go public with this music is a complicated thing, and is a reason why groups like the revived site you and Stew are doing is so important--it helps keep some of those contacts viable for times like this, when you feel the need to track down performers, or their estates.

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:37 PM

It's a reality of life, but I think it's a shame all these concepts like "rights" and "ethical considerations" have to come into play here. I have never had any wish to make any money making music - I just love to sing, and to share songs with people. For the most part, I think that was the attitude of the singers Bob recorded. Although we may think otherwise nowadays, I think that was the attitude of most of the singers who were recorded by the collectors like Lomax and Kennedy, who are now condemned for not compensating the singers they recorded.

If I were to take a remarkably beautiful picture of an eagle in the sky, would anybody think I should track down the eagle and pay him royalties before sharing my photograph?

We need more beauty in this world, and beauty should be shared - freely. I know that's not how our corporate world works, but I certainly wish it would work that way in our world of folk music.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

ART ... so far I think you, and Don Firth, have captured best the circumstances under which these recordings were made. And as I have NO intent to make ANY money off these recordings, I feel free to continue on my path. And I also feel you are quite right ... yet again ... that this question of legality is just another reflection of the crazy times we live in. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

Bob,
Over the years, I have done what I've done. Ethically, all the times had different sensitivities. We sang anybody's song we damn well wanted to. We wrote songs to any tune we wished to utilize. We taped others all through the mesmerizing years of the folk revival in the USA. I had thousands of tapes of everything. Over the last dozen years I've been unable to play my instruments, but I had tons of too much time on my hands. I went through ALL of the tapes I had of myself and of others doing our music. Computers came along and I saved what I thought of as my favorite songs just for listening onto about 100 full CDs.

The rest went onto at least a couple thousand other CDs.

In the 1970s, all the reels got put onto cassettes--to make it easier to take and play music in the car. During the 1980s and 1990s I put those onto CDs----at least the things I figured I would possibly / probably want to listen to during the years I've got left on this planet.

When I finished the project, ALL those cassettes went to friends who are collectors---or to friends I thought would just find them good listening---and, even, maybe, important listening because some of it were "field recordings" I had made of huge flames of life whose music informed the romance of the treasure hunt I was engaged in all those years.

I sang the songs -- and I recorded them too. As I said, we did what we did. And now some try to say say I was illegal all along. --- I do suspect that goes along with the insanity of our times.

Art

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 07:40 PM

Furthermore, the fact that most people are pleased to give their permission to having someone archive old recordings of themselves or their deceased spouse or parents HARDLY means that you don't need to bother. The attitude that "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission" is reprehensible. Making a practice of it is a setup for hefty punitive damages, should a case be taken to court.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 07:32 PM

Actually, even if you are recording for yourself, you are ethically obligated to obtain explicit permission first. For legal protection, you should get permission in writing. And if you're going to do that, with the idea of future posterity, why not just get a signed release?

Note that getting permission for personal use means just that; it doesn't grant you the right disseminate those recordings later, when you change your original intentions. Your "feelings" about the matter, or even the feelings of those who'd like to get their hands on those recordings, are immaterial. There's a simple term for what you're proposing: bootlegging.

Now I won't pretend that I haven't encouraged a little bootlegging in my time, when it benefitted me, or that I myself wouldn't love to hear (or even copy) those recordings of yours. But the "greater good" ethical argument just doesn't hold much water, especially when the whole situation could have been so easily avoided in the first place by a little forethought--and common courtesy.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

There are a couple of other factors here that go into the mix.

I know that most of the tapes that Bob has are of "hoots" or song fests—parties where people sat around and swapped songs. I was there, and I'm on many of these tapes. Most of the time early on, there was an open-reel tape recorder or two in evidence, and later, there might be a half-dozen battery operated cassette recorders whirring away. Everybody knew they were there, and that they were being recorded.

I think it is important to note that these were not public performances. It was not like someone sneaking a tape recorder into a Gordon Bok or Joan Baez concert.

I believe Bob's intent here (correct me if I'm wrong, Bob) is to get the material off the old tape medium and digitize it for the purposes of his own archives and perhaps for the archives of the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, and to put some of it on CDs to give to the people who were there at these "hoots."

I don't really see how there can be any rational objection to this.

As I say, I'm on many, perhaps most, of these tapes, I trust what Bob is doing, feel that it is a valuable and worthwhile thing to do (a great nostalgia trip for some of us!), and I truly appreciate the fact that he is willing to take on a monumental task. As far as I, personally, am concerned, Bob has carte blanche.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

When I made these recordings, we ALL had recorders around. We all knew we were being recorded. We were friends singing with friends. No commenrcial intent anywhere. On some tapes I can hear some people "teaching" me the chords as we go ... like a "teaching tape." bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

There's ethical considerations and there's legal considerations, and they aren't quite the same thing.

Nothing unethical about preserving and passing on music and songs that were performed in public. Legally it might be more complicated in some situations, theoretically at least, but hardly that likely.

I think michaelr hits the nail on the head: "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." (In the improbable situation where someone finds a way of making money out of, it fair shares for the originators.)

Of course if Deckman;s "150 years ago" had been actually the case...

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:03 PM

Bob - there are a couple of issues. The song may be in public domain, but the arrangement might be copyright. Even if both are public domain, you still have the biggeest issue - above all else, the PERFORMANCE rights still belong to the performer, unless you have evidence that you gave it away. If I recorded you 40 years ago singing "Mary Had A Little Lamb", LEGALLY I could not release or distribute that recording without your permission, or the permission of your heirs.

We've recorded artists for the radio station and received signed agreements. The agreements spell our our rights and the rights of the performer.

You can always go back and contact the surving members and their heirs.   If you cannot find them, keep records on your attempts to do so. You can probably make your archives accessible if you make the proper steps and try to obtain rights.

When you recorded the music, I assume it was done in the open and everyone knew that they were being recorded. What was the stated intent at the time?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:53 PM

SINS ... Yes, I do feel I am very privileged to have this material, but I also have spent a lifetime collecting it. If I just keep it for myself, there are NO ethical issues involved. Ethical problems only occur if I decide to share it with someone. ETHICS ... sheeuh. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

If it's any help at all. My recordings from the 60s and 70s of East Riding people singing traditional songs is now held in the British Library. I have just signed a form to agree that they can place all of the recordings online for non-commercial use. There are many others who have done the same thing. The BLSA have not asked me to provide permission slips from any of the families of all the people recorded. However when I published some of the songs in a book in the 80s I had to obtain this permission from all the singers or their relatives.
We have just completed the first phase of the Yorkshire Garland Project and because we were working with a Heritage Lottery grant we thought we'd better do everything by the book so we went through a solicitor who more or less worded our permission slips signed by the singers recorded. It actually states on the slip that the singer signs over to us the complete rights to that particular recording. Not one person objected to signing. Of course this did not affect their rights to any other recordings made of the same songs.
I can't say what the law is in America, but the main rights issue this side of the pond seems to reside in the particular recording or performance rather than the singer or the song. Having said that obviously if it's a song written by someone within copyright then they have the rights to that song in any form.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:41 PM

Bob,
Another point to consider is the possibility that you have some original material there. A song or two with no provenance.
All in all i would say that you are in an enviable position.
Mary

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:38 PM

Legal issues aside,
Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear and abide by the answer.
If you're going to ask for permission, take a denial seriously and don't do it.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:31 PM

What if there is NO copyright and estate? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

If a person is dead, wouldn't any copyright belong to their estate?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

Ron ... I appreciate your input. If the person is dead, and the recording is of material clearly in "the public domain", why is a release required? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

It makes no difference if the musicians and singers were paid or not - amateur versus pro has no bearing.   

Unless you have a signature or other proof that the person performing gave permission, that person still retains rights to the performance.

Sharing those performances - with or without pay, is illegal.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Ahhh Howard I was going to suggest county record offices. I started a thread a few months back on a subject approaching just this. Unfortunately some reocord offices don't want to know, because they just don't have the space and/or the staff to deal with them. Luckily Essex Record Office is fairly accommodating. Yeah I work there.

I would suggest to Deckman if you are recording for posterity make your first copy on high quality archive CDs. They last longer and if you find an outfit to house the collection they will likely require this.

Now I need to take some of my lunch time to have a listen to those tapes from the Chelmsford Folk Club.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Some years ago when I was a floor singer at Chelmsford Folk Club, there was a regular who would always sit in the front row with a tape recorder to record the evening. Sadly, he is now dead but his collection has been given to Essex County Record office where it is being digitised.

Another regular was a radio journalist who was always recording performances for both professional purposes and personal interest. When he had a clear-out he too donated his collection to ECR.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:19 PM

"PUBLISH AND BE DAMNED!" That would be a great name for a pubishing company! bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Rule of thumb: It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Have to admit, like the others, in all my years of recording and publishing online and in books only once have I met with an objection from a family of a recorded person and that was very understandable.
It was of a very young singer and he still had young brothers who might have come across his singing online. We of course respected the wishes of the family. Other than that family members are almost always delighted to know their relative was being honoured in this way.
Another way out is to publish and be damned, then if anyone objects you simply delete what they object to.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

What you decide to archive is really a matter of judgement based on how the recordings were made and what you feel the recordees would feel about the use you intend to put them to.
Personally, if the people on the recordings had no objection in the first place, I have never understood why family members should have any say in the matter beyond being offered the courtesy of being informed what is to happen to them. There again, in thirty odd years of collecting we have never met with any objections from family members.
In the extremely unlikely event of money being involved, we have always donated earnings into the setting up and running costs of archives.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

Even amateurs (or their estates) are entitled to a cut, if there is any income involved. There is also the copyright issue, for all their arrangements and original works. Real collectors/archivers have performers sign releases detailing how the recordings can be used. Failing this, you're always putting yourself at legal risk trying to make such recordings available, even at no charge and for what you consider "educational" use. You may have to let the recordings languish until all copyrights have expired (long after you have.) Sorry, but the laws were designed for the benefit of media conglomerates, not for the good of the public.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

Professional vs amateur. Where do you draw the line? We were all "amateurs" when we started, but many of us went on to "professional" status: records, concert tours, films, radio and TV. But these were just the "friends" I grew up up with. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

I'd say that the ethics of this is that the preservation of the recordings is of far far greater importance than any objections.

If you were in the UK I'd suggest EFDSS or similar.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Have you actually struck any objections?
I would think if anyone had recordings from way back that included me or my husband or any family member, I'd be tickled pink that they were being revived. As long as you're not aiming to sell them and get rich from it while I'm living in poverty....
We have old tape recordings from the 60s and gradually they're finding their way onto CDs but apart from the nostalgia bit, they're pretty crappy - amateur hour stuff!
Just ask the people involved if you can find them. Most wouldn't object. The Tony Rose project grew out of a request for old recordings and his family really wanted to do it.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Deckman Bob--

Are (were) the people you recorded professional musicians who were paid for their performances, and who would expect royalties? Or are (were) they amateurs performing for fun.

If you plan to give copies away, it would be a courtesy to check with the performers if possible.

I would think that this could be a wonder archive of a period mostly forgotten. Perhaps a University folk music archive would like it.

I say this not as a lawyer--heaven forfend--but as one who would like to be so treated

I, myself, have started recording my LPs to CDs/MP3s for my own use.
I have also plan to prepare CDs based on subject or type of music to listen to in that best of all venues...my car

I had hoped to provide these to a local folk music show, much as an oldies folk show, but alas he has been 86ed by the station and has not found another outlet. As they pay BMI, ASCAP fees, I figured it would be okay to give them to him...not sell.

Subject: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

I want to pose a question for open discussion: What are some of the ethical issues involved in archiving?

To explain: I started tape recording folk music sessions when I was teenager, 150 years ago. I recorded hoots, jam session, private one on one song swaps. I used to drag an 80 pound WebCore tape recorder with me all over the map. Now I'm starting a 20 year dream of listening to, editing, identifying, and eventually downloading all this material onto archivel quality CD's. I've got about 300 reel to reel tapes, 400 cassette tapes, and 100 vinyl records.

As I get into the material, I'm realizing several things: most of the people I've recorded have passed on. I'm sitting on treasures, but mainly to a select few, survivng friends. My purpose of this project is to 1. save the material and catalog it 2. make playable CD copies for my personal use 3. make a few playable copies for surviving friends 4. pass on my collection for posterity.

Here's two questions to get the discussion started:

1. What should I do if some surving family members object to my project?

2. What should I do, what's the right thing to do, if say one member of a recorded duo is still alive and objects to my efforts?

I look forward to your thoughtful answers. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson