Ethics in archiving?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 PM

I'm getting a lot of serious information and opinions here and that pleases me. Soon, within the next couple of days, I'm going to attempt a "summary" of the postings and reach a decision. I'll post my decision. Thanks everyone. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:37 PM

Alan, Your statement says a lot: "I have made every effort to trace him and I suspect he is no longer alive."

Even so, it would be worth your while to check with the copyright administering authority in the country where you recorded this person. They will probably advise you to put some money in escrow in case a member of the family asks for compensation.

You will have made fair provision and covered your own butt in case there is someone in the woodwork.

Codger, why not assume that Bob is honest and feels that he has something which should be disseminated in a limited manner. He is asking how to do so with no harm to anyone including himself. The advice immediately above applies to him, too.

Bob's situation is a bit murkier, though. The culture where he is/was permitted recording for private use. As such, there was no permit to disseminate. As such, he has to make an effort to contact the performers or their heirs. He can disseminate the recordings he gets permission to disseminate.

Beyond that, there MAY be reefs.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

Just to clarify some things:

It was not the Smithsonian, but the Library of Congress, that dealt with the fellow whose recording was used in O Brother Where Art Thou. In almost all cases where we are dealing with old field recordings, it's the Library. The Smithsonian's folk music archives are primarily derived from Folkways and the other Moe Asch labels on the one hand, and their great festivals on the other. Because of that, most of their stuff came with explicit or implicit releases allowing them commercial use of the material; obviously Asch had such agreements with his artists, as Folkways was at least nominally a commercial enterprise, and the festival offers a pretty good gig in exchange for a signed release. But keep in mind also that every single year they have stellar, grammy-level talent like Beausoleil, and don't often release that stuff on CDs, so I suspect they are not getting artists to sign releases for every performance, and consequently cannot release many of the festival performances on CD.

The Library's a different story. We have collectors going back to the 1890s, when really no one was thinking about these issues. We have the first ethnographic field recordings in the world, in fact. Lomax and the other collectors of the 30s and 40s didn't usually obtain signed releases either. Many of our other collections came from amateurs on the one hand, and academics on the other--people who didn't even think about commercial issues when amassing their collections.

Even so, the Library does have to seek permission for every item we publish online or release on a CD, unless a signed release was obtained at the time of collection. The typical formula is to send a letter to the last known address requesting permission; if it comes back "unknown," you have made a good-faith attempt, and you file that returned letter as proof of the good-faith attempt. (If a researcher from outside the Library wants to publish any of our materials, then it falls to them to make the same kind of attempt.)

After the attempt is made, if there is no objection from an informant or descendant, the Library usually goes ahead with the publication. If it's an online presentation, material can always be removed if heirs turn up with objections. If it's a CD release, they're usually small batches and as a practical matter I don't think there's ever been a complaint to the Folklife Center after an item was published. (There have been objections from survivors of deceased performers that have prevented certain items from being played on the radio, on at least one occasion that I remember.)   

Keep in mind that the Library never makes any kind of profit, and is by nature educational and public. Any money we earn goes toward furthering our educational and archival missions, which are undertaken on behalf of the American people. Moreover, as several people have commented, the sums involved are tiny. The amount the singer would have made for mechanical royalties on a track of typical LC CD release wouldn't pay for the trouble of collecting it. So it would be hard to imagine people claiming any kind of "damages" unless (1) they are professional performers and the Library release might compete with one of their own CDs or (2) something was published that was downright embarrassing. Since the Library doesn't want to publish anything downright embarrassing, and knows how to avoid the other situation, the chances of a real conflict are slim. Nevertheless, the legal niceties are scrupulously observed.

All that said, Bob, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing, either ethically or legally. (I'm not a lawyer, though!) Until you start publishing or selling the material, no one could reasonably object. I agree that if you're going to give copies away, you should check with the performers if possible...especially with anyone who is a pro performer and has "official" CDs on the market. I think they'd be foolish to imagine your giveaways were competing, but it would be honorable for you to check with them.

Finally, I agree that a university library or other archive might be interested in your collection.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:24 AM

"I'll post my decision."
Opinion, surely? - unless you happen to be one of the fingers of the cold, dead hand of commercialism or musical bureaucracy - god help us all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:05 AM

Thanks for the advice EBarnacle, but it is slightly more complicated,these are not my recordings, but the player's.It forms part of a collection of his playing assembled by his Father and then two cassette copies left to two people in his will.There is very little money involved here, if any,there are so many artists and the costs of assembly so high that the collections just about cover the costs.If however they took off, or one of these recordings became a hit (which I doubt) then it would involve more serious investigation.
My decision is to go for it,the recordings to the Concertina World are too important not to include them.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:32 AM

Sorry - ignore my last posting - too early in the morning!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:54 AM

Ethics I think have gone the way of Israel and Iran!!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

"Ethics" certainly are a nuisance aren't they! bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

I don't think "ethics" are a nuisance, it is just that everyone has a different standard of what ethics should be - and an application that doesn't always relate to the circumstance.

Our friends on the other side of the ocean have different laws.   I'm also a bit surprised by what seems to be a philosophy that "the ends justify the means" - an effort to preserve overlooking the rights and common courtesy that should be extended.   Alan's mention of a concertina recording is a good example - if it becomes a "hit" (probably when pigs learn to fly!), then the same "O Brother Where Art Thou" scenario takes effect. (I stand corrected on the Library of Congress efforts to pay royalties. There are other examples of these efforts as well.)

I do believe if there is concern, a copyright lawyer should be consulted, not a bunch of us altercockers here on Mudcat. It is all opinion,loosely based on personal experiences, and it is obvious that each of us have different experiences.   Going back to the original post, I don't think that in the U.S. a "hobby" type archiving is going to ruffle any feathers or land anyone in jail for infringement on rights issues.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

Ron ... Back on September 14, 2001, you asked me by PM if I would send you some of these "hoot" tapes so you might play them on radio show. I didn't then as I was still working and had little time for my archiving. If I had sent them, and if you had broadcast them, I'm wondering how that use might have conflicted with issues that have been raised on this thread? Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

I'm not a lawyer but I'd like to play one on TV.

It seems to me that only a consultation with an attorney familiar with intellectual property law will put your mind at ease. There may well be a legally recognized difference between, say, placing your recordings in a university archive, making a handful of copies to be given free to your friends, and stamping out thousands of CDs for aggressive sale on the Internet.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

Bob - the same rules would apply.    An assumption is made that if you send out recordings that you have ownership and rights approval - and that is something that would have been discussed before airplay. Should I have played something and received a complaint, it could get sticky - but the reality is the best that could be accomplished would be to cease airplay.

Just to give you an example, I recently received a CD from the State of Florida which contained recordings made at a Florida Folk Festival over the years.    I assume that the rights were cleared and by submission I have permission to play them.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

It is the private archives of collectors that are becoming very valuable to the Folk Scene.Many artists have been taken for granted that they will be around forever.Old cassettes in peoples lofts contain archive recordings of players that have never recorded and are deteriorating daily. A couple of artists work would have been lost forever had they had not been used and computer cleaned for the recent collection I have been working on.I understand that the recent Tony Rose CD is made up of old live recordings many from private sources..If there is an important recording to the Folk World or any other musical World,that all efforts are made to source the family or the artist,then in my opinion it should be used.There is very little money to be made but the value to the listeners is worth much more.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

What a time capsule! I just finished listening to a recording I made in 1957 ... I didn't remember that I had it. This was of a man who took me under his wing when I was 13.

Have you noticed that I'm NOT mentioning ANY NAMES on this thread ... there's a reason for that.

To hear my mentor's voice again brought me to tears. As Alan Day just said in the previous posting ... these private collections are treasures. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:02 PM

As one who occasionally recorded sessions (singing as well as instrumental) and was occasionally recorded by others in such circumstances I've found the thread interesting.

From Bob's original post, as well as some subsequent ones, it seems clear that participants were all aware they were being recorded; on that basis one could reasonably infer that implicit "permission to record" had been granted by all the active participants. Similarly, an implicit "permission to distribute, for personal use rather than for commercial gain", may also be inferred.

So long as the material is used for "personal" (rather than "commercial") purposes, Bob would be staying on the right side of Oz law as I understand it but, as has been pointed out (by McGrath?) there is a chasm between ethical propriety and legal rectitude. Oz law currently allows copying of audio and visual sources from one format to another, providing it is for personal use or for some types of educational use.

Someone suggested keeping tracks separate. While this might allow convenient search routines and might also allow compliance with some aspects of Oz copyright law applying to copying, it seems to me that many "students" of such material would benefit from having the context of tracks preserved; knowing which items were associated at particular times with others or with particular sessions or groups of participants is the stuff of academic excitement.

Being associated with academic activities I suppose I'm biased but I'd strongly recommend depositing a copy of your archived material in a place that allows others to access it for research purposes; in Oz we are lucky to have such institutions as the National Film and Sound Archive (although it goes under a "sexier" name these days) and the Percy Grainger Museum; the latter might be a serious contender with the Smithsonian for "earliest ethnographic recording" as Grainger was one of the first using wax cylinders for field recordings of music us folkies are interested in.

But there also seems to be different (and national) cultural blinkers applied to archiving; google "auslii" in Oz for a list of everything legal in Oz but not replicable with US material.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:04 AM

Here in the West of Ireland we are in the process of establishing a county-wide heritage organisation, including a sound and manuscript archive and a reference library, mainly of traditional material (music, song, story, lore, oral history etc). The current popularity of and serious respect for Irish music has made it possible to apply for and get substantial government grants for such projects. We don't know how this will be effected by the current economic situation, but to date we have purchased a house and enough equipment to get us up and running. We have also been awarded a number of grants for acquiring and archiving both sound, manuscript an published material.
Some of us have been acquiring collections of recordings for decades for various workshops and clubs we have been involved in and we have donated copies to the new organisation, which has enabled it to hit the ground running - so to speak. Local people have been magnificent in donating private recordings, photographs etc to our rapidly expanding collection.
Hopefully, some time this year we will be up and running, with a fully operational and equipped visitors centre and access to our collection through our web-site (once we have sorted out the practical and 'ethical' nuts-and-bolts).
There is a Dublin based organisation whose brief is to assist in the setting up of organisations such as ours; without their help we would still be floundering in the shallows.
Who said folk music is just about having fun and getting pissed each week!!!
My wife and I have spent the last thirty odd years recording some of the last of the older generation of singers, storytellers and musicians. The abiding impression we have come away with during that time has been the breathtaking and eye-watering generosity of those people, many of them on and below the poverty line, with their time, material, knowledge, opinions and experiences. Without them, and people like them, we would have nothing. I can never remember anybody we met saying "you can't have that, that's mine".
In the light of their attitude to what they have given us, I find the idea of somebody copyrighting an 'arrangement' of a folk song extremely distasteful, dishonest and above all, incredibly petty (are these songs really worth so much as to have to lock them away in a safe?) All folk music, by its very nature, is somebody's arrangement. If our field singers, storytellers and musicians had taken the line of 'ownership' displayed here and elsewhere our songs and music would have disappeared centuries ago; as Norfolk traditional singer Walter Pardon once told us "They're not my songs, they're everybodys".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:48 AM

I'd think, go with the peoples wishes on 1&2. I'm not suggesting you seek permission from everyone concerned but if someone did object, I think dropping that song would be in order.

I'd guess a key point in how to think about it could be what the terms were when you recorded. I've been in a few sessions for example where there is a recorder(s) running but even though I have one and use it once in while, I find their presence a touch off putting. My general belief though is that people (including me) want to get the tune down for learning within the group and the thing is fundamentally a private affair. Personally, if I believed my every bum note, etc. was to be recorded for public posterity, I'd down tools and drink at the bar for the rest of the night.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

To Guest Jon ... I too have seen on several occasions where the presence of a recorder stifled the music. But I have seen the instrument cases of the musicians close ONLY when the musician considered himself a "professional," meaning that he was quite above such common taping. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

I just re-read your original post, and have been thinking about what a wonderful and amazing collection that you have amassed. It has a great historical value, and it is a history that hasn't been very much told.

I hope I don't need to tell you that you should keep the original tapes. No matter how good the digital recording may be, it is just a picture of the original.

Also, there's a lot more work than just transcribing--the recordings will have to be documented--I know that people will have hundreds of questions about every song--

My suggestion is that you should ultimately shoot for putting the collection online, in the fashion of the Library of Congress--it would mean sending out letters and getting permission, etc, but it would also mean that we all could hear what you've got--

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

To M. Ted ... Thanks for your thoughts. I'm now pondering several options I have available for the final placement of my collection. None of my children are interested in preserving, or maintaining, the collection. And it is a huge responsibility. There are several local organizations that are beginning to step up to the plate, as well as at least two national groups.

At the moment, I don't know where I'm going to place it ... I'll be looking forward to the day when I can pass it on to someone/something responsible. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:06 PM

Bob, when Dad died I spoke with several people and had some useful advice offered. Three different universities in the region have programs that would be good repositories--the University of Washington for one, and I think it was UBS where Phil housed his collection, and there is also a good program in Calgary. A little far away, but also one to consider. There is the more generalized music collection there at the Seattle Center/Worlds Fair site (I know Dad would cringe to think I donated his material to go in the same location as Jimi Hendrix, but hey, the world is changing).

The point is to not lose track of it in a dusty musty mildewy corner of your garage somewhere. Make your intents known to people and make arrangements for someone to do something with it if you don't get a chance to finish the work you're planning on.

I hope Art Thieme will notice this thread, because he has been doing exactly what you're talking about with his collection. He took about a year, I think, and put it all from cassettes and other media onto CDs.

If you donate a collection to someplace like a museum or university, they have tons of stuff, so unless you give them some money (an endowment) to move it to the front of the list, the collection might not be processed and available to the public and to researchers for a long time to come. So if there is a way to use some of the material in the collection to raise money for that endowment, I think you should explore the possibilities of permission and keeping it all legal and ethical.

I had started processing Dad's collection several years ago, and then we had a burglary here that threw all of that work into chaos. I was sidetracked, but have, through the process of de-cluttering the house (you've probably noticed that steady trickle of discussion down in the BS section) have been making a good workspace to resume that one of these days. And then I'll compare notes with you on recordings. We may have some duplicates, because I know people gave Dad tapes and I know he gave people copies.

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

Oops--I see that Art has been here. Well, I hope he keeps participating!

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

I've been trying to wrap up this thread witha kind of summation, but as you all know, MC has been more down than up lately. Patience is required ... NOT my strong suit. In fact, I don't even think I have a STRONG SUIT. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Bob, if you go to the top and click on "printer friendly" then you'll get all of the posts in a manner that is easy to print out, without all of the html and busy message breaks.

Make your notes then come back and post the pared down remarks (you can save the printer friendly version as a text file on your computer and edit it, you know).

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

SRS ... "Printer Friendly" eh? If I'd had access to that years ago I could probably have saved my first marriage! Ya think? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

O.K. It's time for me to bring this thread to a close, a conclusion. I appreciate ALL the input this topic received. It's clear to me that it did resonate with many people. And like I expected, the comments were all over the map.

The comments I received were an education in themselves ... that's one of the values of an open discussion. Here's where I am tonight:

1. I am putting aside ALL questions/concerns regarding legal issues, copyrites, etc. My efforts will result in NO GAIN for myself. I'm not "selling" anything. I appreciated Utah Phillips comment (thanks Mark Ross ... "if you wanna' make $1,000 in folk music, start with #2,000).

2. Some one said, several folks actually, "just do it and worry about the details later."

3. A lot of folks mentioned how polite it would be to get "family permission" before I archived the material. I'm now saying that I won't bother. These are MY tapes, I made them, I have them, and I'm going to archive them and place them in the public domain for future reference. If family members, or anyone else objects ... SO SUE ME!

4. I am making myself available to other people in the Seattle area who are seriously interested in these archiving issues. At my age of 171 years, I know there are now many other song collectors out there that are dealing with the same questions.

I had a conversation with Pete Seeger probably 13 years ago and that talk led to a conversation with Mark Ross, of Sing Out magazine. We were all talking about these archive questions. Where do we leave the stuff we've garnered ... if I just leave it to my kids, it'll just end up in the dump ... what should we do with it? On and on and on.

So ... I have decided to archive it as best I see fit. I'll now put on my hard hat, steel toed boots, flak jacket, scout out the back door, and hold my breath for your comments. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:15 AM

I hope this thread won't actually close, other questions or remarks may come in that are useful. But clearly you've taken this under advisement and gotten the reinforcement you needed.

Good luck, Bob. You probably made the best choices overall. (Especially about "asking family." That's a landmine if there ever was one.) You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself.

Maggie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:17 AM

Thanks Maggie. In the next few days I'll be PMing you about these matters. I know you're sitting on your Father's collection, anticipating that moment in your life when you also have the necessary time to devote the archiving. I well remember the size of your Father's collection ... immense. I'm sure that over the many years John influenced me and guided me toward the path I'm on. (I miss him every day). Hugs ... Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:02 AM

"You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself. "
Absolutely - and for those you'll be giving the opportunity to hear the recordings in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.It is extremely frustrating listening to some remarkable playing with someone suddenly opening and closing a squeaky door,large objects being dropped to the floor,a dog barking,a child crying,a coughing fit and talking,which is just part of the frustration.Even without one of these noises the artist can make a mistake.With modern equipment this can be sorted out, the mistake erased and a passage, where he or she does get it right, can be inserted in.Some remarkable work was done to get Andrew Blakeny Edwards tracks suitable for the Anglo Collection, the original was nothing like the final recording used.
Continuous background noise can also be taken out such as humming ,crackling or even tape disintegration by modern computer methods.Likewise 78 recordings by using different methods like special needles or computer cleaning,can almost bring these recordings back to their original state.One of the most important things to remember is that the noise before the recording starts MUST be retained.This is used in the computer process and any hum crackle etc can be programmed into the computer from that section to remove that noise.
Jim Ward Crawley Sussex is an expert at this sort of work and did a wonderful job with the old archive recordings.
The method I use which may help is that on each cassette I write down those recordings (either by track number or by tune name )which are possibilities.I assure you after a few hours of it the good recordings stand out.When all the tapes have been listened to.Just extract those ones which you liked and then listen to the best as a package.Once again certain tracks will outshine the others.In this way you finish up with a final line up and it is then that recording doctoring may be required.
I hope this info help a little bit for those of you contemplating this type of project.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Well . . . yeah.

If one is combing through old open-reel or cassette tapes of song fests, hoots, and such in an effort to extract pristine recordings of songs sung by a particular singer or group of singers to put on a CD, one might be faced by a great deal of frustration. However, if what one is trying to do is preserve recordings of songs, people, and the events at which they occurred, then the opening door with new people arriving, the barking dog, a bit of conversation, especially that which occurred between songs, wise-cracks and by-play, is all part of that event.

In some cases, one wishes to preserve such a recording "unsanitized."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

By the way, Bob, I'm Mark Ross, the bum in Eugene, Oregon(formerly of Butte, Montana). The editor of Sing Out! is Mark MOSS.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:32 PM

Mark ... YES I KNOW, I KNOW!!! The minute I posted that I said someting like &^^$#$#%&^# ... or words to that effect. Thank you. bob, who is hanging his head in deep shame and looking at the gravel at his feet!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.

Given that Alan is trying to produce a CD that is marketable to a modern generation I can sympathise with him but there are other valuable functions of recordings that have the occasional bum note, dog bark or police siren in among the music.

In the mid 70s the most frequent (and reliably scheduled) bush dances in SE Oz were the Monaro Folk Music Society's monthly dances in Canberra's Yarralumla Woolshed; woolshed dances feature prominently in SE Oz social traditions. After the dance it was usual for singers and musos to repair to someone's place for a session into the small hours. Seeral of these were held at Mike Jackson's place in Higgins and Tony Suttor brought his 5" Sony R-R recorder along to at least two of these and taped quite a lot of music. While the materials were good the setup was rather basic so, while the music was clear, the quality wasn't really acceptable on a commercial basis.

These subsequently appeared, and were passed from person to person, as cassettes colloquially known as "The Higgins Tapes" (they were still surfacing more than a decade later) with the advice, "If you learn these tunes, you'll be able to join 60% of tunes at almost any folk session in the country." They were almost all dance tunes and formed the basis of many brackets played by bush dance bands all over Oz. They also featured prominently in Talunga Music's "Begged, Borrowed and Stolen", a published (and still available) collection of sheet music for tunes that have the same function.

Almost every player on the original tapes (me included) has had a fine career in the (mainly) Oz folk music scene but none, to my knowledge, has ever sought payment or even acknowledgement; nobody made any money out of the production or distribution of the tapes and everybody regarded their distribution as a way of getting people playing. Even now, I can wander into the Session Bar at the National and recognise some brackets as having had their origin on those tapes so their quality didn't appear to hamper their function one little bit.

But, as I commented above, some cultural contexts encourage this while others encourage other aspects. I recently saw a couple of animated cartoons that some Mudcatters might recognise; "Creature Comforts" uses 'vox pops on many topics and puts people's voices with clay animations. The series recorded in the UK (which I suspect is the original) credits "The voices of the great British public" while the series recorded in the US lists the names of all the people whose voice was used.

Horses for courses. All power to your elbow, Bob.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM

I can only say well done Rowan for your attitude regarding these recordings.You do not have do record with profit in mind.I add my appreciation also to all the players ,some professional, that do U Tube recordings for free downloads,including tutoring.It is all adding to the wealth of recordings to be passed on to future generations of styles music and tastes of today.What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money.Others are deteriorating as I write this so it is hoped that many will do something about it and save them before they are lost forever.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money."
No they weren't.
They were filched and re-issued by Peter Kennedy, but a full set - now digitised, can be accessed at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House - London.
Not to say that they are in the best of health, but last time I was there they were still listenable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

I suspect that as us "olde folkies" continue to age, many more of us will be coming to grips with the question of what to do with our odds and ends of recordings. One of the collections that has been passed onto me was from a long time friend in Santa Cruz, California. I literally took two boxes of reel to reel tapes from the trash heap headed for the dump. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:02 PM

Jim which recordings are you referring to by the BBC?
All the Folk recordings of the fifties,including interviews with demonstration tracks? I also understand from Ralphie that many archive recordings also ended up in skips.If someone like Peter Kennedy did reissue many surely we should be praising him for making them available.
I ask these questions out of interest for the project I am working on,not to try and make it an issue of your posting.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Nick E
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:57 PM

Well this is a can of worms! Delightful!
When it comes to ethics in archiving, ARCHIVE AWAY!
If there is profit from the publication of the archive, that is another story . No leagal reason not to archive as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:06 AM

Alan,
The BBC in conjunction with EFDSS initiated a collecting project some time in the early 1950s - have the details here somewhere.
Peter Kennedy was appointed head of the project and fellow collectors included Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis and Bob Copper.
During the period of its activity several thousand items were recorded, songs, stories tunes, folklore - you name it.
The recordings were catalogued and put onto acetate discs - a set was housed at the BBC and another at Cecil Sharp House; the Northern Ireland BBC also had a copy.
Some of the recordings formed the basis for a series of programmes, 'As I Roved Out' presented by Kennedy, and appeared in a few others such as MacColl's 'The Song Carriers'.
The BBC then appeared to lose interest in the collection, and without their permission or that of any of the performers, Peter Kennedy, who had somehow acquired a copy, began to issue them commercially on his company 'Folktrax'. Because of who he was, nobody did anything about this, and he continued to sell them (mainly unmastered poor quality cassettes) right up to his death a few years ago. Kennedy's set of the recordings are now the (legal - I understand) property of Camsco (Dick Greenhaus).
I do not know the state of play with the BBC recordings, though I think they still exist, partially anyway. They occasionally put in an appearance, usually to be taken the piss out of by people who know nothing about folk music (The Rambling Sid Rumpo Syndrome).
A full set, now digitised, still exists at Cecil Sharp House, accompanied by a magnificent annotated catalogue.
Over the last few years the Dublin based Irish Traditional Music Archive, and (I think)The Folklore Department at UCD have acquired sets of the Irish material - I don't know if the School of Scottish Studies have the Scots material, but they should have.
The collection comprises the finest set of field recordings of British song and music ever made - excuse my surprise in your not knowing about it and the circumstances surrounding it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:22 AM

Alan,
Sorry - missed a bit;
The recordings do not include interviews, or very few of them.
One of the great 'black holes' in our knowledge of folk song is due to the fact that most collectors never thought it worthwhile to discuss songs and singers with their informants, preferring to draw their own conclusions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

Thank you Jim for the information and the way you presented it.
There is an old saying in sales and marketing that says that "You must never assume everyone knows about your product just because you do".
I suspect I am not the only one who does not know about this collection or the wonderful sound archives in the British Library Sound archive department.
So much to learn ,so little time
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:06 AM

Putting on Ex BBC hat here!
What Jim says is factually true.
Since the Mid 90's there has been a project to collate all the various recordings held by the Beeb. It started with digitising all the Peel sessions, followed by Andy Kershaw sessions, and then any Live concerts that still existed. It was such a success that a couple of years ago it was decided to archive the whole shebang!
Talk about painting the Forth bridge!
The only problem is what still exists. It's very true that when tape first appeared it was very expensive, and needed re-cycling. Normally this would be done by various producers, but, ultimately by an Archive panel, who decided what was and what was not worth keeping!!
So, Churchill speeches made the cut, but many other recordings went to the great reclamation site in sky. (Brooklands Park, actually.!!)

It was all a bit hit and miss, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Kennedy collection has bitten the dust as far as the Beeb is concerned. (Remember Acetate discs are not only fragile but very heavy in bulk!)

As far as tapes in skips is concerned, This came to light when working on the Nic Jones re-issue CD's. Having contacted the team that worked on Folk On 2 before it became outsourced to Smooth Operations , I was informed that having been wound up, there was nowhere to put the hours of recordings so.....the inevitable happened.

As an example, of the 8 Nic Jones Peel sessions, only 1 survived.

If you would care to check out the Peel Sessions book, at the end, there are 100 pages listing (as far as is humanly possible) every Peel session ever recorded. Dates Times etc, etc...

With about 25 bands to a page. Each band doing four songs or more. Well you work it out. Well at a rough guess, that's 100 times 100 = 10,000 songs.   And that's just 1 Programme!!!

Yes, I know that we're talking a rock programme, not folk, but it's a well documented example of the sheer volume of material that has been recorded over the last 80 years.....Anyone want to work out 70 years of Promenade concert recordings? Or Friday Night Is Music Night? or The Organist Entertains, ITMA?)

As to what has survived of the Kennedy collection. Who knows. The archive team (about 10 of them I think. not much of a budget!), have probably only just got into the 1930s.... So maybe they'll turn up, (whats left of them) in about 2040. Remember you have to play these things in real time!!!!

so, I look forward to hearing them on the other side of the veil!

Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

Oh and Bob (Deckman) Sorry to Hi Jack your thread. If I were you. Archive and be damned!!!! Good Luck!!
Ralph
PS anybody got 100 Dat machines? LOL!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

Ralphie,
Thanks for that insider information - perhaps you are in the position to provide me with some more.
Were would I go to find out if programmes I am interested in were still in existence am interested in 1 in particular which was made in the early 80s (I think)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

You know, I don't think you've "highjacked" this thread at all. I suspected when I posted these questions that others would be interested.

This whole area of collections and archiving is going to become more and more noticed as we get older. If little old me, hidden deep within the woods of Northwest America, has a tape collection of some historical value, then think about the MILLIONS of other recordings that lie waiting to be dicovered. EH? Bob(deckman)Nelson ... still in Everett ... where the dogs still run slower than the cats ... mostly!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

I'm sticking by my earlier post! I did what I did---and I can't be bothered by revisionist history value judgments made by our musical Taliban at this late date.

Love to you all,

Art

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Good for you, Art. I'm with you all the way.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

Heard on npr this evening:

Saving Folk History, One Recording At A Time

interesting!

Cheers, S. in Seattle