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Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris

Les in Chorlton 12 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM
RTim 12 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM
Les in Chorlton 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM
bubblyrat 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM
Les in Chorlton 12 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM
Selchie - (RH) 12 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM
bubblyrat 12 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM
Les in Chorlton 13 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith 13 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM
Dead Horse 13 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM
Selchie - (RH) 13 Jan 09 - 11:32 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM
pavane 13 Jan 09 - 12:02 PM
MikeofNorthumbria 13 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM
pavane 14 Jan 09 - 04:40 AM
pavane 14 Jan 09 - 04:46 AM
pavane 14 Jan 09 - 05:01 AM
Les in Chorlton 14 Jan 09 - 05:18 AM
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Subject: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

Can anyone help with reliable historical sources and accounts of dances, costumes, tunes etc. for Border Morris?

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: RTim
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Dave Jones book on Border Morris - Is It! I am sure it is listed on an EFDSS site.

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

Thanks for a quick response. Does anybody have a view on this as a source?

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

A worthy cause indeed ,Les ! Best of luck !! Two people who might know spring to mind;
                   A) That strange bloke who is "Still playing the bass", and B) his chum & former colleague, Old Whatsisname,who waves his concertina about in the air. You know ?? Eh ??


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM

Well bubblyrat, that does describe quite a few people in the folk world,are you suggesting Hutchings and John K or do I need another clue?

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Selchie - (RH)
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

Hello Les,

Try 'Silurian Morris Mens' site, Keith Francis used to have copies of Dave Jones' book 'The Roots of Welsh Border Morris' available. It's a very useful & informative book.

You might also like to look at 'The Original Welsh Border Morris' site. They ony meet & dance once a year around some of the Border villages.

Border Morris is covered on Wikipedia. Or you could Google 'Cawte visits Herefordshire'. It's a start, & there plenty of 'Original Border' information out there. Good Luck.

Sorry don't do blue clickies.

Regards,

Rosie Stroud


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

Well Done, L in C , you are so perceptive !! One is ,indeed,"Mr H",as he is known by some people in Westphalia, and the other shares the same surname as one of my favourite singers of all time, from Dorset---the eponymous BOB K...... !! But my (serious ) point was that the (original) two gentlemen probably DO know a lot about "border " morris.By the way, an article in "The Times" at the weekend suggested that Rappers use (I quote) "Two- Handled Swords"--( no mention of sweaty horses !!).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Thanks a lot that should shut me up for a while

Cheers

L in C


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

I was fortunate to meet Dave Jones when I was little. A great man from the Welsh Borders who knew what he was talking about.

How many of the endless Border teams you see all over the place actually dance trad style? I know Silurian and the OWBM do (when they're sober) but I don't often see many other teams doing the proper stuff.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Dead Horse
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

Has anyone ever tried to form a Lock (Nut) out of sweaty horses?
Sounds a wee bit dodgy to me, mate!
And to do it while rapping must be even beyond the talents of Doggie Dog et al.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

How about this page? from an 1810 book.
I wondered if it might be Border Morris due to the use of Bagpipes.
(The whole book is available for download, but I could't see a reference for the source of the verse)


The British Bibliographer, 1810


Searching Google Books for the various spellings of Morris (Morrice, Morys, Morrys and so on) and dance will turn up a large number of references in old books and journals, including the well known one about "Old Hall, taboror of Herefordshire" and the one of a border Morris side whose average age was around 100 years!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

Thanks pavane that looks really interesting

les


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

And this one, from the same author, describes seeing Morris dance in France (Over-the-border morris?)

Censura Literaria


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Selchie - (RH)
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:32 AM

There's mention of Old Hall on Ashley Hutchings' Rattlebone & Ploughjack CD.

Also Worcestershire Bagpipes, & a fine selection of the Welsh Border dances & related articles.

The CD is well worth listening to.

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/guvnor/records/rattleboneandploughjack.html (sorry, don't do blue clickies).

Rosie Stroud


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

In the will of John Colet (1467-1519), founder of St Pauls school, we see that one of the items mentioned was "a standyng cup with the cover gilt with the moris daunce on it"

John Colet


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

One of my all-time favourite albums!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Both Old Hall, and the 100 year old dancers are mentioned here(originally from 1609)

There is more here than quoted on the album.

Twelve Morris dancers with 1200 years between them


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:02 PM

The whole text of "Old Meg of Herefordshire" can be found in this book, though not very clearly scanned. It seems to contain several of the quotes used in Rattlebone and Plughjack, and much more.

Old Meg of Herefordshire


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 05:39 PM

Some interesting information on the revival/re-invention of border Morris (straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak) can be found here:

http://www.johnkirkpatrick.co.uk/mo_BorderInsane.htm

Wassail!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:40 AM

I also came across this page

Middle English Dictionary

which has a 1434 reference to "morys letters" meaning arabic letters.

Moreis: also Morreis, Mourice.

There is a 1450 note in a verse "To the morre(ys) kyng he was a good post. For he was Constable of his Ost"

See also
"The Middle-English Versions of Partonope of Blois " where two different mansucripts are quoted.
The link to this was too long for the link maker.

Also a will in 1458 "Ciphos argenti sculpt cum morys daunce"

(reported elsewhere as possibly the first reference to Morris dance, in the 1458 Will of Alice Wetenhale (P.R.O.: PROB. 11/4) f. 205v, Lego Caterine filie mee..iij ciphos argenti sculptos cum moreys daunce cum unico cooperculo ad eosdem.)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:46 AM

Found a shorter link now. See the bottom of the page, both columns.

The Middle-English Versions of Partonope of Blois

Probably means a "Moorish King", rather than the dance!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:01 AM

In "Bulletin of the John Rylands Library", I can see a snippet which lists between January 2nd and 6th (Can't see which year)

Item to the Pleyers of Wymbone Mynystre (Might this be Wimbone, in Dorset?)
Item for pleying of the mourice daunce
Item for clothing mad for Dik the Fole

Clearly, this last one is the same as "Clever Dick, the Fool", found later.

This is probably one of those lists we find of the King's accounts, relating to the expenses of Christmas.
If I had more time, I probably could find out more about it.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Reliable sources - Border Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 05:18 AM

Thanks for the homework it's much appreciated but it may take a while to digest.

Cheers

L in C


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