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BBC Folk Awards 2009
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Subject: BBC Folk Awards 2009- Rename Category From: GUEST,Jiggers Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM Hi, See nominees for best album : BEST ALBUM : Dreams of Breathing Underwater – Eliza Carthy ; Low Culture – Jim Moray ; This Earthly Spell – Karine Polwart ; Trespasser – Chris Wood Although they are great albums, I don't consider either the Karine Polwart or the Eliza Carthy album to be folk CDs, they just happen to be by folk artists. If Eliza Carthy brought out a Techno CD then would it also be eligible for a folk award ? I've not got the Jim Moray CD but my suspicion is that it is probably a folk hybrid CD. I think this category should be re-named - best album by UK artist with a folk history. Jiggers |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: John MacKenzie Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM It depends on whether the candidates were chosen by listeners, or by a panel of non elected, Smooth Ops friendly, individuals. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM Low Culture has 7 traditional tracks, Trespasser has 1. What's your point and why does it matter? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Ian Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM Folk is such a wide span of music anyway, I personally wouldn't be too worried. It is a fine album by a fine singer and good luck to her. I have always enjoyed her take on music, and even when she takes it to different places, the echos are all there. (Mr Magnifico?) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:03 PM Diane Easby wrote: "What's your point and why does it matter?" My point is clear enough and it mattered enough for you to respond. If I did not know any better and I saw an album labelled "winner of Radio 2 Folk Awards Best Album 2009" - then I might expect it to be more deeply rooted in the traditional mould than some of the nominated albums. This is just a remark, not a contentious issue. Jiggers |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM I also pointed out that Low Culture has 7 traditional tracks. This, presumably, is the sort of content that appeals to you, yet you described the album - which you said you hadn't heard, as "hybrid". I was attempting to discover just what you are on about. Me? I think it's not the category name that needs changing but the entire concept that "f*lk" is a Humpty Dumpty term that gives rise to whingeing that this or that isn't. It's a side issue and of little consequence. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: peregrina Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM The Folk Award LAA and FCY awards have been announced on the Radio 2 Message board. Not very easy to find. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Jiggers Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM Your presumption was wrong. I have both the Eliza Carthy CD and the Karine Polwart CD and think they are both great. I took a punt that Jim Morays album was off the beaten track. Maybe if there was two categories for Best Album, then that perhaps would help a bit. So you think a techno dance album would be ok to win the award then ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM Yes. I can''t remember if Ms Carthy's Red Rice actually won a Smoothops gong. but that's what it was. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Rasener Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM I think when performers stop doing grass roots and are only interested in high audience figures and turnover, they should be excluded from these awards. Folk is for the people and grass roots is so important. When artists forget that, they should forget the awards as well. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Jiggers Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM I haven't heard that album. I must give it a listen. Its noticeable that you refer to a Smoothops 'gong'. Also John said earlier : It depends on whether the candidates were chosen by listeners, or by a panel of non elected, Smooth Ops friendly, individuals. Is it actually the case that the whole ceremony award is mis-named ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM Of the four artists mentioned in this particular category, I've seen three in recent weeks and the notion that their sole interest lies in grosses is laughable. Can't speak for Ms Polwart as I don't know her but from what others have said, the accusation seems equally risible. The fact, however, remains that these are industry awards and success in them boosts both profile and income. Performers actually find it a bit difficult to live on fresh air and grass. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:13 PM Sorry, I am having an argument on another thread that's going quite well at the moment, but i doubt that that will last Best wishes L in C |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM As I said in the previous thread (which I can't be arsed to look for), nominations this year are far more representative of what is actually going on than in previous years. The Smoothies haven't any room left on their faces for more egg. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Big Mick Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:23 PM Jiggers, the word "folk", like it or not in todays world, belongs to the person using it. Your assumptions, given what we see today, as to what it should be are invalid. I believe you wrote that you assumed when you see folk used, that it would contain some traditional music. My daughter, when she hears it assumes it is acoustic. The fact is that she is more correct than you when it comes to these awards, as they are sponsored by commercial interests. It makes no sense to keep going on about that. Rather than folk, we should probably just use the term traditional. I am with Diane as to the issue of gross profit driven motives. Certainly people enter into music because of their love of it. But they still have to eat and pay bills. We hope our music and message appeals, so that folks purchase it. When they purchase it, we pay bills, so we can continue to make music. See how nicely that works? All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Jiggers Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM Mick, you didn't get that right regarding my understanding of the term folk when ascribed to music. I said 'if I didn't know any better then ...'. I think a Best Trad CD album and a Best non-trad Album might be fairer. Its two awards - so thats better for everyone - surely ! I am at a loss to see how The Villans statement is an accusation against any of the performers mentioned - where does it say that ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:53 PM "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean. The question is which of us is to be the master" Alice in Wonderland (or as near as makes no difference). |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,JM Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM Hi, Diane, I make it 8 - which one did you think was not traditional? And of the two remaining on the CD, one is very much a newly-written retelling of a rich vein of traditional songs, and the other is a bit of fun that gets mistaken for a traditional song daily at the moment. Frankly, Low Culture is a traditional album "1954 definition" or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM 8 it is (. . . grumble, grumble, these poncy CD covers that don't number the tracks . . . other than which, |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM On 2nd thoughts, I was right 1st time. It hinges on 3 Black Feathers. Does it count as Original or Trad?Arr Bella Hardy? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM . . . That should be Trad/Arr Bella Hardy. Since I'm back I'll sort out the confusion over Trad and Non-Trad categories. The way the Smoothies do it is thus: There is "Best Traditional Track" and "Best Original Song". (Different rules apply for white bunnies). In the case of entire CDs, it's just "Best Album" |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Rasener Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM >>I am at a loss to see how The Villans statement is an accusation against any of the performers mentioned - where does it say that ? << You are right Jiggers. I never mentioned anybody. I don't do that. Unless of course I am praising them :-) Basically I just made a statement and other people do not have to agree. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: peregrina Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM Ahem! Three Black Feathers is an original song written by Bella Hardy using the conventions of night visiting songs. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:30 AM Guest JM (wonder who that is?) says there are 8 trad songs on Low Culture. So if you take out All You Pretty Girls (Andy Partridge) which is up for Best Original Song, and Valentine (Adrian Shaw but with a trad tune), that leaves 8. Including, presumably Three Black Feathers which, although rewritten by Bella Hardy, bears considerably more resemblance to trad than the Lakeperson's Albino Hopping Creature which gave rise to Bunnygate a couple of years ago when the Smoothies managed to let through its nomination as Best Trad Track. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:04 AM Ah Bunngate what a campaign that was. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:29 AM I don't understand the Folk Awards, never have done, not since they changed the 'Public Vote' because they thought Show of Hands would just keep winning it. So, they banned Show of Hands from winning something year after year, because THE PUBLIC would vote them in....BUT...the Folk Awards 'judges' vote in the same people, year after year after year after year... I can see one or two new names on that list, and it once again, gives the impression that the folk world consists of around 5 people..many of whom are up for numerous awards. I've always said that for me, the object of the Folk Awards should be to help as many *different* artists as it can, rather than nominating as many of the *same* artists for several awards, thus narrowing down the opportunities for others. The Folk Awards is incestuous, imo. Trying to get 'into it' if you are not within 'the inner circle' is akin to trying to join the Masons. You have to know the right people and be willing to join 'the lodge'...funny handshakes an' all. It gives the wrong impression to the world and it will continue to convince people that the folk world is small, incestuous and deeply controlled by those who consider themselves big fish in a small sea and never want to share 'their sea' with other forms of marine life. Bring Back The Public Vote. It was the ONLY thing of truth within the Folk Awards. They didn't like the truth and so they removed it after the very first year. Pathetic. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:43 AM These are the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards and this is their 10th year. Sometimes they hold a public vote for certain categories but usually they do not as the panel is made up of industry representatives who are supposed to know what they are doing. This year, Phil Beer is one of the nominees for Musician Of The Year. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: peregrina Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:33 AM Ms Easby: re the post a while back: Three Black Feathers is not trad/arr, but written by Bella Hardy. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:50 AM "Sometimes they hold a public vote for certain categories but usually they do not as the panel is made up of industry representatives who are supposed to know what they are doing." They held their public vote for the first time ever a few years back, and that public vote was for the Best Live Act and didn't they make a HUGE song and dance about it too, got terribly excited, encouraged everyone to join in... So...er....everyone did. And guess what? Show of Hands won it, and all HELL broke loose. Within days they'd closed the 'Best Live Act' idea down, even though it was meant to be an ongoing yearly idea, as this is what they'd decided...But because Show of Hands won it...they changed it to something they KNEW Show of Hands 'officially' win, so it became the 'Best Dance Band' etc.etc..etc... Probably Show of Hands may have won that too, but it was kept quiet.;0) It was said, by some not too far away from this message, that the Best Live Act results had been 'rigged' HA! What of course had happened was the Show of Hands fans, who number in their tens of thousands these days, (as do Seth Lakeman's) voted for the band they loved. The following year, the judges voted on Best Live Act, and they voted Bellowhead in, despite Bellowhead, at that time, having only played live a very, very few times. The public go to see the musiciains they love. They should be allowed to vote on that fact, in ALL music awards, not just the Folk Awards. WE buy the tickets, WE buy the CDs, and if an artist or band has a huge following of fans, it is because their music is outstanding and appreciated by thousands of people. It is also because they've worked their socks off getting their music out, playing thousands of gigs, headlining festivals etc..etc..etc. It's perfectly easy to just say that no band can be win two years in succession, and a yearly gap has to be left, to allow others to win and further their careers. Show of Hands became the Banned Band with the Banned Band's Banned Fans, which in my book carries FAR more weight than some poxy Folk Awards Award, given out by an inner circle of fish to their favourite fishettes. Sorry, The Folk Awards has a very long way to go to redeem any respect from me. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:51 AM "they changed it to something they KNEW Show of Hands wouldn't 'officially' win, so it became the 'Best Dance Band' etc.etc..etc..." |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:47 AM Oh come on Lizzy - the BBC Folk Awards are right up there with Jonathan Ross. Perhaps you can poke it out with a stick. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM Three Black Feathers is not trad/arr, but written by Bella Hardy . . . which is what I implied when I said Low Culture has 7 trad tracks (as opposed to Trespassers with but 1). Another contributor (Guest JM - ha! - not me) said they made it 8 trad tracks on Low Culture. The CD has 10 tracks (all excellent). AYPG and Valentine are definitely not trad, as I said before. So what IS TBF? As far as royalties are concerned, it matters not whether it's listed as Trad/Arr or as Original (though after Bunnygate it would be as well to describe it as a self-composition). Which is what I suggested in the first place. Sigh. Yawn, losing the will . . . (Bella Hardy is at Walthamstow tomorrow). |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Liam Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM Whether Low Culture has 10 or 11 tracks depends on how you count the hidden one about Adam Ant at the end. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM Adam Ant ia no help at all in bumping the trad track total up to 8 . . . |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,cardboard cutout Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM "It hinges on "Three Black Feathers" No, I don't think JM is basing his count on that track, but on "Valentine" - depends whether you count it as tune or song, I suppose. And Lizzie, when did the BBC/ Smooth Ops. ever say there would be an audience vote in perpetuity, or that such a vote would be for "Best Live Act" in perpetuity? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM I hold no brief whatsoever (as any fule kno) for Smoothops, but the fact is that they produce for the BBC exactly what the R2 Controller (whoever that is now) tells them to put on the tin: namely an Awards ceremony of vaguely f*lk-tinged music that reflects part of that network's output. This, of course, is why it can be uncomfortably mainstream and way behind the times of what's actually occurring on the ground. Having said that, this year's nominations reflect reality rather more closely than previous years in which, particularly as far as the Horizon is concerned, tends to be a vaguely embarrassing catch-up process. That's why, although I'd like to root for Bella Hardy this year, I'll have to back Jackie Oates who ought to have won it long before now. I know I'll regret asking this, but how in the name of any deity of choice, could a soft-rock, singer-songwriter duo possibly be a candidate (even by Smoothie rules) for a Best Dance Band award? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:01 PM "I know I'll regret asking this, but how in the name of any deity of choice, could a soft-rock, singer-songwriter duo possibly be a candidate (even by Smoothie rules) for a Best Dance Band award?" Well, you obviously *haven't* danced to their music! :0) I'm not talking that whoopsy daisy larks in the morning kind of dancing..nooooooo....I'm talking REAL dancing! Come on, kick yer shoes off, and let yourself GO! Haul Away Joe! :0) Smooth Ops, on the old BBC board, no longer there, said that the Public Vote for Best Live Act was going to be the NEW BLACK! Days after Show of Hands won it, Mel, their 'host' on the board, said that they'd decided to change it, because Show of Hands would just keep winning it, year after year, after year, after year... YAY! :0) No, seriously though, even Steve and Phil would have felt that was unfair, but to do what Smooth Ops did, in the way they did it, and for er, certain people to say it was rigged..was unforgivable. You get the Folk Awards you deserve I guess....and so...it's the same old same old, picked from a small group of people, when the folk world is bursting with incredible talent, all of whom need as much help as they can get... I don't need to look at who's been nominated, because I already know.. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM Steady Diane, steady. Come on Lizzie we all no what dance Bands are Maybe Bunnygate had an effect? No that's far too silly L in C |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM Maybe Bunnygate had an effect? That is indeed what I am suggesting. we all no what dance Bands are Clearly "we" do not. http://www.e-ceilidh.com/ |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM Yes, but we have different views on dancing. The Oysterband, for me, are a GREAT dance band! I've stood down the front in their shows, and people are leaping up and down all over the place! Why does 'folk dancing' have to be all that stuff we were made to do in school so long, long ago? Kids don't dance like that anymore..only a few..most want to have a really good time and throw themselves around a bit. A great deal of dancing happens at a Seth 'Bunny' gig. :0)lol |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM Yes, but ceilidh dancing is all 'arranged' stuff isn't it, where you have to do what you're told and dance 'the right way'... Show of Hands and Oyster Dancing is wild and free...same with The Duncan McFarlane Band, superb to dance too..Heck, Otley Folk Club was heaving with dancing folk that night a few years back when I got to see Duncan and his band..Fantastic!! By the way, WHERE *are* Duncan, his band, and....Tom Bliss???????? They should ALL get a Folk Award... But nope, the same old, same old, same old... There really should be an investigation into it all. Yeesh! |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Howard Jones Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM I see plenty of people dancing the "wrong way" at ceilidhs :) Lizzie, what makes ceilidh dancing different from what you're describing is that you're dancing as part of a group, rather than as an individual or a couple. That doesn't make it better, or worse, but neither does it mean it's less "wild and free" either, there's plenty of opportunity to express yourself within the set figures. There's a difference between a band which plays music which can be danced to, and one which plays for dancing. But you know that really. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM Yeah, course I do, Howard. ;0) Heck I've been to a few barn dances over the years...turned the wrong way, caused complete chaos. :0) I gave up line dancing, when a friend dragged me along, as I turned right when everyone else turned left so many times it threw the lot of them..most confusin'! I even did that ballroomy stuff when I were a young chicken, was fine on my own, but put me with a partner..hopeless! I know Joe, I know..."talk about the music, Lizzie, not about yourself." lol And now, back to Edward II and The Red Hot Polka |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:22 PM all of which is bollocks. SoH are a jewel in the crown of English folk music. they have played trad songs from day one. they have learned mastery of their instruments in sessions throughout the English folk club system. the idea that their music bears no relation to folkmusic is just bloody fatuous. Phil beer could piss rings round virtually any other trad musician in England - technique wise. its such an insult to pretend they are doing something other than the music they devoted a lifetime to synthesizing their own unique contribution to. shame on you! Show some respect for the effort they've put over bloody nearly forty underpaid, underexposed years. Also no one's given them a BBC2 television spot despite a no-bottom recording budget, inability to write a hit that the public identify with - like what has happened with the usual lads and lasses that Smoothops shine their light on. SOH could be playing indie trance hip hop and heavy metal dance music - and they'd still bear a stronger relation to English folkmusic than the usual suspects. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:39 PM Yay! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM Phil beer could piss rings round virtually any other trad musician Hmmm, yes, some . . . As I remarked much higher in the thread, he's up for Musician Of The Year and, based on the opposition, only John McCusker is a serious rival. Not that I have anything whatsoever against Martin Simpson or Tom McConville but how it works is what have they actually DONE in the past 12 months. What I'd personally like to see is musicians involved in diverse, wide-ranging and interesting projects that the mainstream never hears about. Like Karen Tweed, Sam Sweeney, Elle Osborne, (non-W:C, not that I have anything against them either) Saul Rose, John Dipper, Adam Bushell, Laura Cannell, the Brothers Sutton, Emma Reid, Chris Walshaw . . . people like that who are not exactly R2, are they? And jolly marvellous old blokes like Reg Hall, Keith Kendrick, Pete Coe, Brian Peters John Adams or Chris Foster. R3, yes, maybe, but absolutely non-Smoothie. Context is all. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: GUEST,Liam Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM The Best Musician Award really has been abused over its lifetime. McCusker and Simpson have both won it twice. One year Smooth Ops flew Chris Thile all the way across the Atlantic to collect it, in the period when Nick Baraclough's show had turned into one big promo for Nickel Creek. All of which gives the impression there aren't really many top-knotch British "musicians" and of course there may not be hordes but there are a LOT more than you would think by reading the list on the Folk Awards website. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: peregrina Date: 18 Jan 09 - 05:51 AM I think all this year's nominees are top-notch musicians. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Spleen Cringe Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:12 AM Last paragraph of Diane's post of 6.58... spot on!. And Late Junction is probably the best show for folk music on national radio. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Jan 09 - 06:12 AM You'd be a clever old sausage if you knew what all those people had been up to in the last 12 months. i've seen Keith Kendrick about three times in the last two months - but I wouldn't like to guess what he's been up to. i still think its a bit cheeky telling SOH that they don't play folk music. |
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