Hard Times (come again no more)versions

Subject: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

No, I'm not asking for them, I've found them. And what an interesting trip thru styles and approaches!

Those of you who know UseNet (Newsgroups) are probably aware that folks post music in various places. I browse the folk music area to try to learn more of what exists on CD..(or did exist on early LPs)

This week, someone posted his collection of over 100 versions of "Hard Times" by Stephen Foster, and since I really like the song, I started listening to some. Here's a screen capture of about half the list (some 8-10 are only instrumentals)

Mercy! What can be done with (and 'to') a simple song! I know that 'tastes differ', and that I am kinda picky & traditional, but it sure illustrates, to me at least, those versions which are about the song and the message, and which are about the singer or group. I have listened (usually one verse & chorus is enuf) to about 1/3 of them, and find (so far) 11 really nice ones, 8 'borderline', and 23 that vary from bland & silly to absolutely weird! (some take very strange liberties with the basic tune...some just ummm... 'improve' it with little vocal warbles - because they can?))

I realize that if 50 of us were to review the same list, we'd have 50 different evaluations.

I have been to workshops about "making a song your own", and it's a valuable thing to think thru. I do wonder, however if some folks even TRY to come to terms with the feel and history of "Hard Times"...or bother to research the tune and 'pace' before recording it.

So...have you ever gone thru lots of versions of a single song and had a similar reaction to them?

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:12 PM

This is a pet peeve of mine, Bill, and especially with this song. A performer friend of mine from Chicago does a version which is uptempo, and he added a chorus effect to. I remember asking him if he actually thought about the words, or if he was just shooting for a catchy tune? (We are good friends and critique one another like this). I surely get the idea that each singer hears how a song should sound in their own way, but his version is just completely at odds with the sentiments being expressed. I literally cannot bear to listen to his version. So, in answer to your question, the answer is a resounding "Yes".

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: peregrina
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:18 PM

I always like to hear contrasting versions; in fact, I wouldn't mind several people doing the same good song in an evening; I keep playlists of songs I like.

Bill D could you be persuaded to name names? Or at least your favoured versions if not the others?

I notice that the itunes store has about 90 versions of 'Hard Times Come Again No More'.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: sharyn
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:31 PM

As a ballad singer, I used to have the habit of buying any CD featurimg a traditional ballad, which meant I heard a lot of versions of the more popular ones, such as "Two Sisters." I find I have very strong opinions (surprise, surprise!). I like to hear different versions of things. I feel compelled to sing those I really like. Also, if I like a singer, I will look for him or her singing songs I already like.

I have never done an extensive search for all of the versions of one song.

Re: "Hard Times": I had heard the song for years, knew all of the words, know several other Stephen Foster songs, but I never felt compelled to sing it until I heard Laura Love's version on the radio. She took liberties (invented a whole second chorus, which some people will hate), may have even have gone a little too far. Her version turned the song into a prayer for me, so I sing a Laura-Love-inflected version now.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

The only thing you can do to spoil a song is not to sing it. (Or words to that effect). I do wish I had said that first but I do believe a certain Martin Carthy said it first.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Bill D, list unreadable. Or is it supposed to be?

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

Q...unreadable? It is just a .jpg image. Perhaps you need a higher screen magnification?

peregrina: So far, I have enjoyed versions by "Cherish the Ladies", "Acabella", Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan! (surprised me!), Jerry Lynch, Jeanie Stahl, Mary Black, Jay Ungar & Molly Mason (a little tweaked, by tweaked nicely), David Massengill (excellent version), and... "The New Hutchinson Family Singers"...a rather 'stylized' treatment by today's versions, but perhaps truer to how it was done in Foster's time.

I don't want to directly list ones I really don't like, but I 'may' use Audacity to make and post a short clip from *shudder* one of them, with no mention of source.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

(Oh...several of the ones I don't care for as, as Mick says...'up tempo'...singing about hard times with a happy, bouncy rhythm)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:12 PM

Absolutely unreadable- none of the letters is complete. Magnification makes it worse. But if saved, it is readable. Most odd.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

Yes, it is curious, Q. Do you suppose it has anything to do with your screen resolution? That'd be my guess. Mine is set at (I think) 1680 x 1050. That makes some things pretty darn small. I sometimes have to punch up the alt + keys several times to get some things readable enough for me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution

About the versions, Bill. Have you tried De Danann, which features four exceptional singers, Maura O'Connell, Eleanor Shanley, Mary Black and Tommy Fleming? All of them were vocalists with the band at one time or another. Another nice version is by Jennifer Warnes.

Dale

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

List is easily readable on my machine. Must be local machine variation.

Scary long list it is too!

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

Dale...DeDannan is next on my list to try. I did listen to Jennifer Warnes, and while she is obviously a talented singer, I didn't care for what she & her group did with Hard Times...(kinda 'milking' the notes..doing fancy harmonies on the chorus(that's sorta why I only listed my favorites..it's a matter of personal taste on many of these)

Kampervan...and that's only half the list...

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

and yes, Dale...DeDannan is a pretty good version! Even with the slight accent, they (mostly 'she') do it 'straight' and at a reasonable pace.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

I once sifted through every Youtube version of Hard Times, and as far as I remember the McGarrigles got my vote.

The De Danann version was ruined for me by the bizarre choice of a Major II chord to go with the "weary" in the first line of the chorus.

The song needs a IV chord there, never a II.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

That's my favorite. In order, the singers are Black, Fleming, O'Connell, Shanley. There's a youtube of that actual performance if you want to put the faces with the voices. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KO6uMhvfE While you're in the neighborhood, I'd suggest Maura O'Connell's Maggie with De Danann.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

Ok folks...here is a one verse & chorus clip of the extreme 'strange' end of what I have heard. This 1 1/2 mins. It goes for 5 1/2 minutes.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: peregrina
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:38 PM

My own favourite has been Tim O'Brien's on Songs from the Mountain. It has a real rawness. But my sample of alternative versions is much much smaller...

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:41 PM

Yes Murray...there are several otherwise decent attempts which seem to feel that they MUST do something different to identify THEIR stamp on the song. It can vary from just quaint to ummmmmm...

Some do long, drawn out notes, or metronomic cadence, or triplet warbles in unusual places.

De gustibus non disputandem (amateur Latin)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM

(I see Tim O'Brien about 20 down on my list...I'll see if I get to it tomorrow)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

Well, that one does bring a smile though, doesn't it?

That Alisa Jones near the top should be a good one. That's Grandpa Jones daughter. Don't know if she'll be singing it or just playing the hammer dulcimer. Either way, I know I would like it. I have yet to hear her do anything I didn't like.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

Ah, that was me. Don't want such an important post to be wiped away!

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

Gawd, that's awful Murray and tends to ruin the whole song though the rest is just fine. Which gets to my real point........

Great thread Bill, but its loaded with additional questions and pathways. Lessee here............Making a song your own is such a touchy business but I too agree that there needs to be at least a nodding familiarity for the history and period of the song and moreso where the songwriter was personally. This applies to almost any song even the newer ones.

One of the best threads I ever recall around here was a discussion of a Dylan song, "Don't Think Twice." Rick, PeterT, Hawk, me and I don't remember who all, had a lot of fun on this thread which rambled all around the song origins and versions and included specualation as to Dylan's state of mind and the point where he wrote this one. It went all over, under, around, and through, the various types of renditions and how they changed the meaning. We went through about half a dozen factors that made our takes on the song changeable.

Whatever......What I'm saying is that a real classic old chestnut like thi is subject to (or should be subject to) the same thought processes and investigation if you really want to make it both your own and authentic/true to the song itself. I'm not sure that happens all the time and especially to ones with beautiful tunes and words where strong players or singers are equally likely to show off their abilities rather than the song.

.............Answering your question Bill.....uh, yes.


Spaw

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

Good Heavens! How could they have missed my version?

Seamus

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:03 PM

They didn't miss it, Seamus...it is just alphabetized by first name, and you were about 2 inches down in the list and not in my screen capture. I may get to YOU this weekend! Beware...*grin*

(ummm...thanks,Pat...)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:07 PM

Dale...the Alisa Jones one is an instrumental only, and to DO an instrumental out of a simple melody, she had to resort to some kinda flowery messing around. It's pleasant enough, but it's just a 'tune'.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:00 PM

With the steamzillion versions on youtube, the song is now hardwired into my brain- Some singers push it too hard, others, I think, lose the feel of it as they concentrate on their voice or try to make it 'different' from the next fellow's.
It is perhaps the best American song ever written, although I hate to rate music.
I liked Thomas Hampson- this has been a favorite version with me for years. His album "American Dreamer" is a prize. A highly trained singer but he knows when to depart from operatic singing.

I would like to hear Tift Morritt without a large orchestra backing her- she has a fine feel for the song but the orchestra distracted.

De Danaan versions, Mary Black, were good, but- and McGarrigles-

I would like to hear a soloist who sings it quietly, with feeling, and only a few guitar chords (Jim Dalton did some interesting accompaniment with Maggi-).

It is one of those songs that one feels inside himself- perhaps that is why it is hard to agree completely with a performance.

And more to sample-

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

Most of the versions I have enjoyed seem to treat it as a rueful, lamenting sort of song. But the single most powerful rendition I've heard was hard and loud, accusing, not so much "isn't life hard and cruel" as "this is unacceptable: we must change it".

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

Willy Nelson did a good version, on the Darol Anger CD ' Heritage '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: RTim
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:27 AM

This tune is also used on the Carillon at the church in Adderbury Oxon.
It is played every 3 hours after the hour is struck on one day of the week
I forget which day and I'm to lazy to find it now.

The Carillon was installed to celebrate Victoria's Golden Jubilee.

Tim Radford - ex-Foreman & Squire, the Adderbury Morris Men

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

To answer Seamus Kennedy... your (live) version did make my personal 'decent' list. (That means top 10%). There was one place where I'd quibble with the note used to end a phrase, but I liked the acapella treatment and a feeling of being true to the song. Well done...and nice helpers, too.


One fascinating version was The Sons of the Pioneers, where it sounded exactly like the beginning of a Roy Roy Rogers movie where the rhythm sounds like they were all on horseback.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:07 PM

and, I agree almost precisely with Q's general comments about how the song is treated generally and why it seems awkward in some versions.

And, yes...it IS a very personal song. I do think that some of the more awkward versions may be from singers who do NOT "feel the song inside themselves", but merely treat it as a performance and vehicle.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

I jumped ahead to listen to the Thomas Hampson version(s) (each a bit different, but with the same feeling).

The 1st, from an album of Foster songs, reminds me of the New Hutchinson Family versions as perhaps attempting to do as it would have been done in the 19th century. It is, I'd say, the slowest I've heard, but very moving and excellent. As a trained singer, his elocution is perfect.
The 2nd version was recorded in a live performance, and is a bit faster, but with the same piano accompaniment and 'formal' treatment.
   Both versions are treasures, though nothing like what *I* would be likely to do.

I was,as I indicated above, strangely satisfied with Bob Dylan's treatment. Though it is unmistakably **Dylan**, he sings it like someone who cared what the song evoked.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

I am beginning to see a pattern in the way various folks phrase the first line...

Some say "...while we-all sup sorrow with the poor.". with the two words made into almost a single word with emphasis on the 2nd syllable.

Others very carefully say "...while WE all sup sorrow...". It not only affects the phrasing, it also changes the essential point of the line a bit. I don't know, in each case of course, whether it was a musical decision or an analytic one about social classes.

(and several folks completely change the words... one to "...while we all share sorrow with the poor.", which may or may not be be equivalent to "sup">). It sure doesn't 'feel' the same.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:55 PM

I just encountered about the 3rd or 4th version played as a rousing, almost Bluegrass style/pace... whump-whumpa whump-whumpa pling-pling-pling...

It feels like they had just 'encountered' this song, discovered it was famous, decided they ought to cover it, and hurried thru it to get it out of the way. Barely any attempt to 'feel' what it meant.

(Interestingly, there were a couple of groups who call themselves Bluegrass bands who actually do a decent, slower paced version.)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

I finally listened to the last 8-10 versions, and found several more decent ones, a couple of 'sorta' versions and several that *I* didn't care for, including one more whumpa-whumpa bluegrass version and one more with a long, slow 'milked' 1st verse, then speeded up....strange.

One interesting one was at the end, played by Mark O'Connor & Yo Yo Ma and sung by Edgar Meyer,(who I'm not familar with). It was beautifully done and 'listenable', though a bit out-of-character.

It is truly amazing to hear how very different a simple song can be interpreted, and I am quite aware that others would arrange THEIR lists differently from mine.

A couple of years ago some folks posted many versions of Child Ballads, and in the more popular ones, the variation in styles was even greater. (well, folks have had hundreds of years to mess with Child...*smile*)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM

I really like the version by the 'Americana' group Eastmountainsouth, on their debut 2003 album. They seem to have disappeared, though, no other albums since. Has anyone heard of them doing anything recently ?

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Artful Codger
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:16 AM

Hearing it sung by James Taylor finally prompted me to learn this one.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:23 AM

I have seen a copy of several editions of the original Firth, Pond and Company songsheets. S.C. Foster patented his songs - it was the easiest way to establish copyright.

The words and tunes/chorus have evolved in the folk world a bit. Particularly the timing of the chorus where you can embarrass yourself if you sing too soon, or have to play catch-up.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:32 AM

Two versions I heard recently & admired greatly were by Mavis Staples (it is on a 'Various Artists' album of Stephen Foster songs) and by Mary J.Blige, who sang it on the American TV benefit show for Haiti recently.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:38 AM

Jody Stecher and Kate Brislin do a great version on their CD (or record) "A Song Will Rise". The whole record is a "must have" in my book.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: olddude
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:21 AM

Hey Bill
here is my meager attempt that I recorded at my last gig
old dude

its not much but the best I can do on this great great old song besides missing a few words

Dan

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Artful Codger
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:46 PM

Interesting, because I found Mavis Staples' version an example of the artist making herself more important than the song. The gospel-esque treatment was nice, but her vocal effects were over-the-top.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:51 PM

hey...nice, Dan!...one more for my collection.

It's good to hear folks keeping the classics alive!

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: olddude
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM

Thanks Bill !!

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:04 PM

I was going thru my sneaky process of saving the song without having to 'sign up' for anything. *grin*... These sites don't want you to know how to find whatever you just played already IN your browser's cache!

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:06 PM

I see I have Mavis Staples version listed in my "not" list of versions I didn't care for.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Songbob
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:17 PM

Hard times, hard times, and wuss a-comin'
Hard Times through my poor old head keeps runnin'.
I'd cotch the man that wrote that song --
To shake him well would not be wrong.
I'd shake him up and shake him down --
Shake him till good times comes 'round.

That comes from a Minstrel-Show play, and I learned it a while back, but now can't find it on the internet. I downloaded some pdf files of old Minstrel Show songbooks (Hooley's Opera Songster is one), but recent searches have not located my source. Does anyone have an idea where I could/should look?

Thanks

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:52 PM

the wayback machine? (Internet archives)

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Songbob
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:42 PM

Wayback machine = no results.

Subject: RE: Hard Times (come again no more)versions
From: Tinker
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:51 PM

Bill, I spent way too much time tonight listening to various versions on youtube..... still processing