Noise limiters proposed for music venues

Subject: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Bluegrassman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:52 PM

Does anyone know much about this?

"It has become apparent that the government wish to consider it a legal requirement in the new tax year to introduce laws insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue.In our experience any venue that has one in use cannot have any electric music as the power is constantly being cut mid-song - and even loud applause at the end of a song can cut it. This will be the final NAIL for ALL entertainment in the UK as the level at which these devices CUT you off is dreadfully low and damaging"

There is an online petition to No 10 to be signed and the closing date is this coming Friday 23rd January 2009.

Can I post a link to the petition on here?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Yes please

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Tyke
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Apparently there is a new version that shoots the Banjo Player.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

I've heard of problems with one of these devices at on venue I go to. It doesn't come into play when I've been there as there is no amplification in use. What I heard suggested was that "audience noise" was a common trigger.

How are they applying this law? Will it also be able to cut the tv off if sound levels get too high during a football match or if the juke box gets turned up a bit high or are the government discriminating over allowable db levels?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM

I've played (non-folk) in a fair few venues that have had these in as far back as 2000 or 2001. I think the venues back then were given them due to complaints about noise as the venues were in residential areas.

Whilst it's obviously a nuisance to performers, but on the other side of the argument, often a new landlord will bring new music policies with them: a quietish local pub can become a rock venue practically over night. This is something that happened to a pub a couple of streets away from me.

The volume level might seem low, but one thing that's always struck me as a punter and a (bad) performer is how many bands turn-up to pub venues with amplification that's really inappropriate for the venue anyway. Back-lines of Marshall stacks (turned up to 11) for rooms that fit tiny amounts of people has always seemed ridiculous to me particularly when the amps are going through a PA either 'DI'ed or 'mic'ed up as well.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Yes, I've come across that. Egypt were so loud when I heard them in a local village pub that Pip who is more sensitive to noise than I am could not stand it in the car windows closed in the car park, pub doors and windows closed. It seemed to me like they were kitted out for a venue (maybe rock festival?) much larger than the one they were playing. I think most there would (if you could shout into the ear of the person next to you) agree volume levels had got more than a little silly.

I'm sure given the kit, I could achieve the same levels with recorded music though.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

It is not true

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: oggie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

The effective date for the legislation was last year so the petition is irrelevant. The legislation requires owners of music venues to protect their employees in the same way as factory workers etc are protected.

Now I live next door to a pub (with their carpark in between), they have covers bands turning up with 3000 watts plus of PA, so loud that I can write down the set list in bed with the windows closed. Inside it is so loud that oredering a pint is done by sign language. The basic rule of thumb is that if you have to raise your voice to hold a conversation with someone two metres way then ther may be a noise problem.

Now we would (I think) agree that your kitchen or car shouldn't be made at the expense of someones hearing. Is music and the people who work behind the bar different?

Article here HSE and noise

Steve

Steve

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

The legislation requires owners of music venues to protect their employees in the same way as factory workers etc are protected.

Oggie, can I read into this that if the tv (probably with a crowd shouting for a goal, etc) or the wound up juke box makes to much noise they will be cut off too?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:30 PM

well,I wont get any more bookings then cos my voice is too loud.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:36 PM

They've had these devices in working men's clubs since the late 70's - the trick is to take a long extension lead and don't take your power from the sockets on the stage.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Bluegrassman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

The petition is still open until the 23rd January 2009, to date 62317 interested people have signed up. Someone replied "its not true" Not a very informative answer to my question but there you go. "I only asked" as Bernard Bresslaw once said.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Bluegrassman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

Villan,here is a link to the petition, sorry you will have to cut and paste it

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

Cheers

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

From Hamish Birchall, 14th January 2009

"How badly does the government treat live music? Here's a quick test. One of the two statements below is false. Which one?

1. The government has made it a potential criminal offence merely to have a piano in a bar for the public to play.
2. The government is planning new law requiring all music venues to fit noise limiting devices.

Answer: Statement 2.

But this has not stopped a petition based on statement 2 above shooting into the top 10 on the Number 10 website with nearly 20,000 signatures: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk:80/NoNoiseControl/

Yesterday the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural affairs (DEFRA), responsible for noise legislation, denied any such plan. And, a few days earlier, when I spoke to the petitioner, Warren James, a professional guitarist based in Coventry ( http://www.musofinder.co.uk/warrenjames/86409 ) he was unable to recall where he had heard about this new legislation.

While musicians sympathise with Warren's feeling about noise limiters, the petition text reveals a fundamental lack of knowledge about existing law.

For many years, using entertainment licensing, local authorities have had the power to require venues to fit noise limiters. This continues under the present regime. So the government doesn't need to introduce a new law.

But under the current legislation it would be potentially unlawful for local authorities to impose a blanket requirement that all venues fit noise limiters, or to impose unnecessary or disproportionate conditions. Government licensing guidance implies that noise limiters may fall into the latter category (see p22, para 2.34, Licensing Guidance issued under s182 of the Licensing Act 2003
download PDF from DCMS website: http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/3667.aspx )

Some local authorities may have abused their powers in this regard, however, enforcing noise limiters where they know licensees cannot afford to challenge them through the courts. It is worth campaigning against that, although in many ways that is already being done within the broader campaign to get small gigs out of the entertainment licensing regime altogether. The government has promised a public consultation on new exemptions for small gigs by the Spring.

ENDS"

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:44 AM

The first tip that the person complaining of this legislation didn't know what he was talking about was that he couldn't write a proper sentence:

"It has become apparent..." (how?)

"...that the government wish to consider it a legal requirement in the new tax year to introduce laws..."

They wish to "consider it a legal requirement to introduce laws?" What the hell does this mean? And since when does the whole of the government intend to introduce a law? And why is "the new tax year" unspecified? And, finally, "government" is singular, not plural, so "the government wishes."

"insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue."

Insisting? Laws don't insist. "Applying or re-applying?" They can't require anyone applying to have one.

A coherent sentence would be: "Some UK lawmakers wish to pass a law requiring every licensed entertainment venue to be fitted with a noise-limiting device."

It still wouldn't be true, though....

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Rob A
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:05 AM

Here is a statement by Warren James .. the guy who started the petition.

18th January 2009:
STATEMENT TO DOWNING STREET E PETITION...

Due to the many contacts I have received regarding the E-petition on the 10 Downing Street website I have made the following statement for the many supporters and the critics who have contacted me.

It is great to see so many people supporting the comments made on the e-petition on the Downing Street website which started early in 2008, all of you seem to agree with the issue raised.

Although the issue that I was angry with and petitioned against in early 2007 never actually came to fruition there was most definitely at the time very good reason to start the petition as countless associates in the music business were hearing the same statements which was that 'the government were going to make it a legal requirement to have a noise limitation device in all live music venues'.

Countless venues are still hearing such rumours regarding such plans, the amount of people who have emailed me advising that they are still hearing the same rumours is incredible and continues to concern me and I'm sure all musicians who have families to feed and bills to pay.

However it is a fact that this never happened in 2007, thus allowing live music to continue 'reasonably' un-interrupted.

We do need to remember that we still have venues in the UK with these devices installed and set to a drastic and unfair level which can cut you off the second the drummer taps his kit. It is also important to remember that these devices ultimately damage your electric equipment such as amplifiers and instruments which are not designed to be switched on and off constantly because a little "musicians speed camera" tells you that you are too loud "in its opinion".

I am pleased to see that our government didn't continue with the proposals that we were getting word of as we do not need any more restrictions on the live music industry, it is heavily restricted as it is. However, we still need the reassurance that this will not happen as rumours start somewhere.

It may appear that I jumped without thinking when I made the Downing Street Petition, however, by doing this quickly and promptly it allowed people to voice their opinion good and early. Very often it is too late by the time our voice gets heard the damage has been done.

Musicians in the UK must be able to work and I am pleased I got in there quickly with this petition as it has cost nothing for people to show their support to live arts, even if ultimately nothing was achieved because nothing actually happened in the end, let us not forget that THIS IS A GOOD THING.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to sign the petition and make your voice heard... let us be happy that this didn't happen, sometimes sitting back and waiting can mean the damage is done and your voice won't be heard once it is too late.

And finally let's hope such a law never does come into effect in the future

Warren James
Thursday 18th January 2009





On 20 Jan 2009, at 01:12, Seggs wrote:

My dear chums, a serious request… please bare with me…

NOISE LIMITERS – if the volume on stage goes over the set level… all power to the stage is automatically cut off.

New noise legislation about to be introduced is likely to virtually destroy live music in the UK.
The government wish to consider it a legal requirement in the new tax year to introduce laws insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment licence must have a noise control device fitted to their venue. This will be the final nail in the coffin for pretty much ALL live entertainment in the UK as the level at which these devices cut the power off is ridiculously low.

In our experience any venue that has one in use cannot have any electric music as the power is constantly being cut mid-song, and even loud applause at the end of a song can trigger the devices.
Losing the ability to either play live, or see a band play live, brimming no louder in volume than the chattering of voices around me would be a disaster, and something I'm quite simply not willing to give up. Please sign the petition with me below to stop this madness. Oh, this has to be done in the next 2 days!!!

Steve E


PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION HERE:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:23 AM

"please bare with me…" !!!!!!!

Are we talking about music venues or strip joints here?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:14 AM

Mrs Pavane has sung in clubs using noise limiters, without any problems (But she is not loud anyway)

And I do no understand why pubs think they have any right to blight the lives of people living up to several hundred yards away.

Similarly those who have bass boxes in their cars, which can be heard from half a mile on a calm night, for no obvious advantage to those in the car and the annoyance of all around.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM

Some pubs are indeed audible half a mile away - and seem to think that that is some srt of God-given right.

Noise limiters, however, are a different kettle of fish. My daughter used to be able to trip the one in the downstairs bar at the pub she worked at. It was there because of occasional "open mic" nights. She, however, could trip it without a mic!

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:42 AM

Guest, Smokey is right - many of the clubs I used to play in around Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire un the '70s used them, and the answer was indeed to have a long mains lead to your distribution board which you could plug in somewhere other than on the stage.

Some of these devices were set at a very low level and, invariably, it wasn't the guitars/keyboards/pa that tripped them, it was the cymbals or snare rim-shots that seemed to do it. Perverse or what!

I hated those f***ing things but, many years on and having lived near a pub that has 'singers' (and I use that word very loosely!) on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights, I'd be very happy to see them in all venues! :-) :-)

It's amazing how a bit of passive consumption of some bint catterwauling the latest Beyonce dirge at 11.30 on Sunday evening can change your view of such things.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

Beyonce dirge at 11.30 on Sunday evening can change your view of such things.

The sessions I try to get to have to stop at 10:30pm and one of those is mid week. I can't believe that we carry as much noise outside the pubs than a group of people talking on their way home having finished drinking at maybe 11:30pm (and on occasion talking can make sufficient noise in a pub for me to find difficulty in hearing Irish pipes maybe 3 feet away). I'll have to find out and can't get out at the moment but I'd be doubtful whether jukeboxes or a sporting event on tv would have to be turned off in nearby pubs at 10:30 even though both can make more noise than an accoustic session.

If there is a noise problem, I'd like to feel more confident that noise is treated equally.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:27 AM

About F*******time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:46 AM

Is there a petition in SUPPORT of noise limiters? I'd sign that!

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:30 AM

Without knowing how it would be applied?

It may not be like this but you would be happy with a situation that cut my (I don't have one) folk duet out when someone in the room sneezed loudly but would allow me to wind up my (incidental to my trade if I had pub) system up 'cause my customers asked for "Brown Suger" louder (on the juke box) unchecked for noise?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:57 AM

I enjoy music, but I find that the bass (That's all you can usually hear) going Boom Boom Boom is far more of a problem, when trying to sleep, than people talking, even loudly. It usually lasts longer, too.

Some people do need to get up early, and need to get to sleep before 11:30pm.

Of course, limiters should also apply to the Juke Box. And I think you or the organiser could be in trouble if you are found to be deliberately bypassing the limiter.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

"Some people do need to get up early, and need to get to sleep before 11:30pm"

Amen. I'm one of them - the alarm goes off at 5.30 am.

And, of course, when the 'music' stops, the piss-heads pour out into the street and spend half an hour bawling "Ni-i-i-ght, see ye-e-e-r. See yer la'er. Night, see ye-e-e-r" at one another. That or fighting, with screams by way of accompaniment.

Jon - I don't think unamplified tune- or song-sessions, or acoustic performers are the problem, and obviously they're not what's being targetted (switch the juice off till you're blue in the face, it won't silence a voice or guitar, a mandolin, a fiddle or a melodeon). In over 40 years, I don't recall ever being in a folk- or acoustic-club where noise has been a problem.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

As has already been mentioned, noise limiters already in use do tend to be sensitive to the wrong kind of 'noise'.

In my days with the ceilidh band, we found that the clapping of the audience as the head couple danced up and down the set, whilst virtually inaudible outside the building, was sufficient to trigger the limiter, yet the PA, which was audible outside the building, was not!

Another problem was the occasional blown fuse in an amplifier when the mains was restored - so the long lead bypass approach was how I tackled the problem...

As an audio engineer I know the reasons for the above, and do not propose to go into it here, but suffice it to say these devices really only exist to show that measures have been taken to protect the rights of people living in close proximity to a venue.

Saddleworth Festival's main venue is Uppermill Civic Hall, and they've had trouble for years with the audio limiter fitted in there - which cannot do anything about limiting the sound of the many brass bands which play there...!!

Nope... I have to agree that the noise outside the venue at chucking-out time is a far greater problem, and more difficult to police adequately... and, in the main, folk audiences tend to be reasonably behaved.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

"...there was most definitely at the time very good reason to start the petition as countless associates in the music business were hearing the same statements which was that 'the government were going to make it a legal requirement to have a noise limitation device in all live music venues'."

So it circulated in the music business, but not in government circles. In other words, it was a completely unsubstantiated rumor.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:50 AM

As I recall, a device is fitted at the Belper FC (Derbyshire). In general it doesn't cause a problem.
Occasionally however, this has the unintended consequence that some accoustic singers actually compete to trigger the device.
"Let union be in all our fun..."

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM

So the person who has devised this scheme regards music as 'Noise'. That is saying that all music is 'Noise' and is unpleasant. Well ok, some of it is, but when you get home and in the quiet of your bed, don't you wonder why there's a 'Noise' in your ears?

Sal

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:42 AM

One man's music is another man's noise...

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:45 AM

I'd love to see a circuit diagram for one.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

Do these devices reset automatically after being triggered? If so how long is the interruption they make?

What I am thinking is that if they do reset, and it is a relatively short break, then some sort of UPS device might be possible. This could keep the flow going if the supply were temporarily cut due to the short, sharp sounds discussed above, but would quickly run down in the event of sustained excess volume. No damage to sound gear due to unexpected switching on/off, and uninterrupted sound if levels set OK.

Of course such a device might be prohibitively heavy or expensive, I imagine that the average sound rig draws a fair bit more electricity than a PC plus accessories. Whatcha fink??

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

From Hamish Birchall.

The noise limiter petition is number 1 on the PM petition website with over 70,000 signatures:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/

This despite the petitioner himself admitting that with hindsight it was a false alarm: http://www.warrenjames.net/index.php

The petition has more than double the number of signatures than the petition calling on the PM to impose an arms embargo on Israel following its Gaza offensive. Once again, public concern about the regulation of live music proves to be greater than the either the government or the media appreciate.

The Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) and the Health & Safety Executive (HSE) confirmed last week that the government had no plans for new noise limiter legislation, and that the petition was unfounded. It would seem that rumours in early 2008 about the end of a 2-year moratorium of enforcement of Noise at Work regulations at entertainment venues were the petitioner's starting point. But even under that legislation noise limiters cannot be forced on a venue.

The petition against the genuinely controversial Met police gig risk-assessment Form 696 is at number 10 with about 13,500 signatures: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Scrapthe696/

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

<quote>
Do these devices reset automatically after being triggered? If so how long is the interruption they make?
</quote>

The ones at Cecil Sharp House have to be manually reset. If one blows three times in a night then a circuit breaker trips which can only be reset after a time delay.

One band thought it a great joke to deliberately blow it twice in their first set. They didn't think it was so funny when they were told that they wouldn't get paid if they did it again.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:31 AM

"One man's music is another man's noise... "
No - unfortunately one man's noise is everybody's noise - that's the nature of the beast.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: pavane
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:53 AM

Does that come under the Law of the Excluded Middle?

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: GUEST,DizzyLisa
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:04 AM

I notice the rumour has been quashed already. I presume everyone who signed the petition received the following e-mail from Downing Street but just in case, this is what they say

We are pleased to tell you that there is no truth in claims that the Government is planning to introduce a requirement for entertainment venues to fit noise control devices.

Each Local Authority Licensing Authority considers every live music application on its merits, and decisions are made entirely by them.   However, the Licensing Act 2003 does not allow mandatory conditions for live music to be imposed across the board. It would not be possible to impose such a condition without a change in the law and such a change is not, and never has been, on the Government's agenda.

There is also no legal requirement under health and safety legislation for entertainment venues to have noise control devices fitted, nor is there any proposal.

The Government is acutely aware of the contribution that music makes to our culture and we remain committed to a vibrant and flourishing creative sector, of which live music plays an essential part.

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Musket
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM

Years ago, a venue we were playing (as a rock band, not folk,) had such a limiter that just cut the juice backstage. A band who had played the previous week rang and warned us.

I suppose now, many years later, I can admit what we did about it.

During sound checks, we played with the settings on the white noise generator to have it send out a single tone at 29KHz. This cut the power whenever we turned it on at a high volume. We couldn't hear it, neither could the manager of the venue.

He admitted his machine must be faulty and disabled it.

I did feel a little bit guilty... but the paying punters enjoyed a good concert so alls well that ends well. (I never did find another use for that setting on the tone generator, so often wondered if the manufacturers (Alesi) put it there for that purpose!)

Health and safety and all that. Won't be long before some bright spark rigs up an antinoise generator at a given small bandwidth that fools the machine but not the human ear. (Thinking about it now, actually and how to achieve it.)

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

Isn't it the truth that most people in the folk world would welcome noise limiters as their music would fall below the noise threshhold, whereas we all want to discourage the volume of music, piped or live, that we hear in some city centre pubs.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Noise limiters proposed for music venues
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM

Tradsinger, if only that were true. Many noise limiters are set at a level where they can be set off by acoustic music. That's not a problem if you're singing unamplified in a folk club, but at a ceilidh where the band's PA can be switched off by the noise of the dancers' feet, it starts to have an impact.

True, this is often because the limiter has been set up badly, but don't think folk music isn't affected.