BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools

Subject: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Just got this from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7836875.stm

Can't wait to hear the cries of outrage and indignation about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

They should round 'em all up and take them to an island surrounded by sharks, then leave them there!

The B*stards!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Maybe if our governments were supporting the Talebam and supplying them with arms...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

It is infuriating. By the way, arer there any women Taleban? I know, I know, they respect women so much they are keeping them safely at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:12 PM


Can't wait to hear the cries of outrage and indignation about this.

Does being so sarcastic make you feel better, Teribus?

Somewhere in the archives is a copy of an op/ed piece I wrote back in the mid-90s about the "Murderous Oppression" of women in Afghanistan. At that time, not many of the general public knew what was going on. It was just as bad, if not worse, than now. So, I don't know what will make it better. Bush hasn't done anything to improve it; I am not sure anyone from the West can, but as humans on the same planet, I know we have to care.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

The beliefs are of the more conservative Pushtun people, who do not want modern or western education. The Taliban- younger, more militant Pushtun- represent the beliefs of many Pushtun; just how are you going to round up more than a million people with biblical age beliefs. They will continue to fight for their beliefs.

This people live in the tribal region of Pakistan and throughout much of Afganistan.
The ignorance of western governments is abyssmal and completely mis-guided. If the West wants to maintain a little western enclave in Kabul, where the brand of Islam that prevails is different, the conservative Pushtun may permit it, but trying to bring this people under the western yoke will only result in more decades of violence.

If these people are left alone in their territory, as Pakistan has generally done with them, modern thought will evolve gradually if it is not forced down their throats.

The comment by McGrath has merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Errr....Israel has been blowing up schools too...with people sheltering in them!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

Q, that's right. It is folly to think a Western government can go in and fix something that has been going on for hundreds of years. I don't get McGrath's comment, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

Well, in fact, The Taliban is a rather new male religious cult that was formed as a result of the Russian occupation and the Afghan civil war, influenced by . It is far more radical than what most Afghans want.

I am one of many women around the world who have been aware of the rise of the Taliban in the 90's and what they began doing to women in Afghanistan.

Here is a timeline of their formation and rise:

The Taliban - history and resurgence



snip

"Groups of taliban ("religious students") were loosely organized on a regional basis during the occupation and civil war. Although they represented a potentially huge force, they didn't emerge as a united entity until the taliban of Kandahar made their move in 1994. In late 1994, a group of well-trained taliban were chosen by Pakistan to protect a convoy trying to open a trade route from Pakistan to Central Asia. "

snip

"While the Taliban present themselves as a reform movement, they have been criticized by Islamic scholars as being poorly educated in Islamic law and history—even in Islamic radicalism, which has a long history of scholarly writing and debate."

---
From my home town of Bozeman, Montana, Greg Mortenson has been working to set up schools for girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Mortenson advocates girls' education as the top priority to promote economic development, peace and prosperity, and says, "you can drop bombs, hand out condoms, build roads, or put in electricity, but until the girls are educated a society won't change".

Mortenson's web sites:

Book tour, reviews and media on www.threecupsoftea.com
Central Asia Institute website www.ikat.org
Pennies For Peace website www.penniesforpeace.org

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

Three Cups of Tea (book) click

Central Asia Institute

Pennies For Peace, A U.S. penny in Afghanistan can buy a pencil

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

For the cynics reading this:

"On August 14th, 2008, Pakistan's government announced on its Independence Day, that Greg Mortenson will receive Pakistan' highest civil award, Sitara-e-Pakistan ("Star of Pakistan") for his courage and humanitarian effort to promote education, and literacy in rural areas for the last fifteen years. Pakistan's President will confer the award on March 23rd, 2009, in a official ceremony in Islamabad."

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Steve Coll's Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 offers revealing details of the CIA's involvement in the evolution of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks. From the beginning, Coll shows how the CIA's on-again, off-again engagement with Afghanistan after the end of the Soviet war left officials at Langley with inadequate resources and intelligence to appreciate the emerging power of the Taliban. He also demonstrates how Afghanistan became a deadly playing field for international politics where Soviet, Pakistani, and U.S. agents armed and trained a succession of warring factions. At the same time, the book, though opinionated, is not solely a critique of the agency. Coll balances accounts of CIA failures with the success stories, like the capture of Mir Amal Kasi. Coll, managing editor for the Washington Post, covered Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992. He demonstrates unprecedented access to records of White House meetings and to formerly classified material, and his command of Saudi, Pakistani, and Afghani politics is impressive. He also provides a seeming insider's perspective on personalities like George Tenet, William Casey, and anti-terrorism czar, Richard Clarke ("who seemed to wield enormous power precisely because hardly anyone knew who he was or what exactly he did for a living"). Coll manages to weave his research into a narrative that sometimes has the feel of a Tom Clancy novel yet never crosses into excess. While comprehensive, Coll's book may be hard going for those looking for a direct account of the events leading to the 9-11 attacks. The CIA's 1998 engagement with bin Laden as a target for capture begins a full two-thirds of the way into Ghost Wars, only after a lengthy march through developments during the Carter, Reagan, and early Clinton Presidencies. But this is not a critique of Coll's efforts; just a warning that some stamina is required to keep up. Ghost Wars is a complex study of intelligence operations and an invaluable resource for those seeking a nuanced understanding of how a small band of extremists rose to inflict incalculable damage on American soil. --Patrick O'Kelley

(From an Amazon.com review of the book)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM

What they're doing is an outrage. But at least they're not blowing them up while they're full of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

What I meant kat was that, if we were backing the Taliban and supplying them with arms, in the way we are with Israel, you can be sure there'd be one hell of a lot of outrage and indignation about it.

Though I don't know - after all when our governments were backing Saddam Hussein in his war of aggression against Iran and his treatment of the Kurds, protest against that was pretty marginalised. Mostly it was just the same kind of people who make a fuss about Iraq or Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

Ah, thanks, McGrath. Sorry I was so dull.:-)

Alice, that is excellent! I didn't mean to sound as though we shouldn't try to change things or help, just that, like in the Middle East, there are tensions between so many different factions, many of which have gone on for hundreds of years, it is folly to think we can bomb them, etc, and make a change, esp. a positive change. Mortensen is to be commended.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:31 PM

It's ALL an outrage. Including what Israel is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:18 PM

I'm sure I remember a long trail of condemnation of many things that the Taleban imposed on Afghanistan - the destruction of ancient treasures, the repression of women, the suppression of the wishes of the people by force.

But I'm not sure that the evils of the Taleban religious lunatics justified bombing a whole country back into the stone age, and although that bombing brought down the Taleban government, I wonder if it has actually entrenched the Taleban as a symbol of the resistance of the Afghans to the colonial invasions of the UK and US.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:15 PM

Extract from broadcast. Barney Porter, ABC (Australia) reporter:
"Professor Akbar Ahmed also says he's concerned by a wider trend he's noticed throughout the Muslim world."

Islamic scholar and professor Akbar Ahmed: "There's a very high level of anti-Americanism. It's largely emotional, but it's also tied up to the situation in Iraq, in Afganistan, and the feeling that the tide is turning.
This is a very important point. I don't think it is fully understood here in the west.
There is a feeling, particularly [among] those who are educated in madrassas, the middle classes, the lower middle classes, the people in the streets that the tide is turning, and if they continue taking the offensive, western forces will soon be pulling out."

Failure to relate Taliban activity and growth to the beliefs of the Pushtun Sunnis will be the major cause of failure of western influence in the Tribal areas of Pakistan and Afganistan. The small Shia enclave in Kabul cannot hold out without decades of occupation and support by western arms.


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1644595.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:34 PM

The Bush administration failure to understand the culture of the middle east and to even remove experienced diplomatic personnel who did understand that culture, was all part of their stupid rush to war in Iraq.
Bush and his idiots. What carnage they have spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM

In the 19th century (1839-1842), Great Britain tried to control Afganistan. The entire first mission contingent was slaughtered as they tried to leave (one survivor). Akbar and the Afghan tribal leaders previously had given safe passage to the women who had accompanied the mission to Kabul. The widow of the mission head, McNaughten, later wrote a book about it that still is worth reading.

An interesting period in the history of the region, perhaps little real relevance to the present, except the old story of outsiders attempting to impose their will and beliefs on a people.

Now Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles of the British Foreign Office reportedly said that the campaign against the Taliban insurgents would fail and that the best hope was to install an acceptable dictator in Kabul.
The British government has tried to back away, but messages to the French from Cowper-Coles partly support the story. In a coded message, he told them "The foreign forces are ensuring the survival of a regime which would collapse without them...They are slowing down and complicating an eventual exit from the crisis, which will probably be dramatic," the Ambassador was quoted as saying. He also said "the American strategy is doomed to fail."

Story in The Times, Oct. 2, 2008: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4860080.ece

The British are leaving. In the meantime more Americans and Canadians will die in a hopeless cause. Canadians seem ready to pull out also.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:01 AM

"The Taliban are one of the mujahideen ("holy warriors" or "freedom fighters") groups that formed during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89). After the withdrawal of Soviet forces, the Soviet-backed government lost ground to the mujahideen."

From the link supplied by Alice. It is incorrect, the Taliban as such never fought the Soviets, they were not formed until after the end of the Soviet occupation. They were formed in 1994 by Mullah Omar to fight the violence and corruption of the warlords of formed Mujahideen groups. They were never supplied, trained, or supported by the CIA and no evidence exists to substantiate any contention that they did.

For any who actually read the opening link, the schools that have been blown up and ordered closed are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. The Taleban who have ordered these actions in Swat Province are not the "elected" Government and are formed by Taleban from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Oh, Q, "The British are leaving. In the meantime more Americans and Canadians will die in a hopeless cause. Canadians seem ready to pull out also.".

The British are leaving Iraq, they will shortly be increasing troop numbers in Afghanistan, our commitment to the UN mission in Afghanistan remains the same. The Canadians may well vote to end their participation that is entirely up to them. Personally I would hate to see them go they have done amazingly well, but that has come at one hell of a cost and I do not believe that anyone would compalin if they withdrew, when other NATO member states have not pulled their weight. The 2500 troops making up the Canadian contingent would most likely be replaced by US and UK troops.

Things in Afghanistan are a damn sight better now than they have ever been in the last thirty years, and they are continually improving.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:11 AM

Ah, I see that Teribus is trolling again.

It's Taliban, not Taleban.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:14 AM

Taliban supposedley means "teacher", no? They've certainly disqualified themselves for that label.

Religious fanatics (any fanatics, actually) should never be allowed political power.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

Can be either Taleban or Taliban SRS, but still doesn't alter the fact that they were not formed until after the end of the Soviet occupation and that they formed to fight a "civil war".

I think that Taleban (Or Taliban for SRS) actually means "Student".

This is a problem for Pakistan, as a nuclear power, the Government of Pakistan must ensure that it, and it alone, controls what happens within its borders, not groups of religious fascists or tribal leaders with a political or religious agenda. The whole of Pakistan must come under the governance and rule of law and order of the elected Government, the sooner that this is achieved the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:58 AM

Until the women of the Middle East are able to be seen and treated on an equal basis to men, things ain't going to improve. You cannot have a population where one sex is totally in control of the other. What can you do with men who don't want women to be educated? They are so fearful of their women beginning to realise that there is another way, another life...one that doesn't revolve around them...

Do you remember thaat photo of the beautiful child with the incredible sea green eyes, that was taken by Steve McMurray?

Sharbat Gula

Here she is now:

Sharbat Gula's Story - 20 years on

From that article above:

"Education, it is said, is the light in the eye. There is no such light for her. It is possibly too late for her 13-year-old daughter as well, Sharbat Gula said. The two younger daughters still have a chance."


Blowing up girl's schools is the decimation of freedom for a whole new generation of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

Think of all the things that happened in the twentieth century, all the absolutely astounding advances that were made in practically every field of human endeavour.

The most important, the most far reaching - The emancipation of women - Almost overnight we doubled our capacity and capability for improvement. Now think what the effect would have been if it had been embraced and undertaken world-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

aye so did the Jews in Gaza now how can anyone justify that, the killing of innocent men, women and children and hamas as well, and yet there was hardly anyone condeming this country Israel and yet they get away with it everytime and it has to stop.

and the Jews also blow up hospitals and mosuges as well, and yet America and the western countries just sat back and allowed it to happen.

why was that

I just hope the President Obamha does something about it or else.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

On the BBC today it was suggested that the Afghani Taliban considered the followers of the leader in the Swat valley was too extreme in destroying schools.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

"aye so did the Jews in Gaza now how can anyone justify that, the killing of innocent men, women and children and hamas as well, and yet there was hardly anyone condeming this country Israel and yet they get away with it everytime and it has to stop."

It is totally different, although equally distressing.

If Israel had never been attacked, ever, they would have lived their whole lives in peace, alongside other nations. But they were never allowed to do that, and so for decades they have been attacked repeatedly by numerous nations. They've had their own people killed, until they have almost 'mentally' broken and we have reached this terrible stage.

The Israelis have never attacked their own schools, or blown them up, in the sole purpose of stopping their women from being free. They have never demanded that their women hide away from life, dress in boiling hot burkhas, keep their bodies and faces shut away from the world, because they are nothing more than items which 'belong' to their men. The Israelis treat their women as equal citizens, and without them, they'd not have the country they have. They thrive on education, but have never been allowed to just 'thrive' in life.

Some of the countries who attack Israel see their women as something to be owned and controlled. Sometimes, they are little better off than slaves. They often get beaten and some live a very hard life. They have been kept down for centuries.

The Taleban are people who want to control their women and keep them down for centuries to come, and they will stop at nothing to ensure they are kept from learning that the world has moved on from medieval times.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

Read that article more closely, as it gives the dates of the Soviet occupation, 79-89, NOT that the Taliban existed since '79.

Taliban does not mean teacher, it means student.

See the timeline here.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:13 PM

Some of the Taliban had been mujahideen, such as one of the Taliban commanders, Jalaluddin Haqqani, who joined the Taliban in 1995.

Muhammad Omar
Founder of the Taliban
Born: 1962
Birthplace: Uruzgan province, south Afghanistan

Son of a poor farmer, Omar grew up near the southern city of Kandahar. An ethnic Pashtun and a Sunni Muslim, in the early 1980s Omar studied in religious schools in Quetta, Pakistan. Although he is known as a mullah, a religious teacher, he is not a cleric. While fighting the Soviets, Omar reportedly lost an eye, which is now stitched shut. After the collapse of the Soviet-backed government in 1992, civil war erupted between various warlords and factions. In an effort to establish order, Omar founded the Taliban, which quickly captured much of the country, including the capital, Kabul, in 1996. Since then Omar has been the leading member of the Taliban's six-member ruling council. Known as "Commander of the Faithful," Omar is reportedly married to one of Osama bin Laden's daughters, and is believed to have close ties with the Pakistani intelligence service.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

Well you can't have it both ways....You can't assist the setting up of an Islamic republic in Iraq, then complain about the behaviour of Islamists in Afghanistan.
Or maybe you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

We are reaping what we have sown...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:03 PM

Over the last two days I have been watching a documentary from the BBC--courtesy of YouTube postings--about the ingathering of all the world's knowlege by medieval Islam, and their discoveries in math, science and medicine. Islamic scholars were about 300 years ahead of European discoveries.

How damned ignorant the Taliban are! They denigrate, defile, and destroy their own cultural achievements, to say nothing of that of others over the years.

If anyone is interested in the videos they are at:
       http://uk.youtube.com/profile?user=idStarfleets&view=playlists

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:19 PM

These people want education. They want clean water, better health care, better farming techniques, better roads to get their crops to market. To say that they should be left alone to live as they have for thousand of years is a form of racism in my opinion.
Alice is right. What Greg Mortenson's group is doing in the Mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan has meant significant improvement in the lives of the people who live there, so much so that tribemen from remote villages seek him out requesting that schools be built there. These same people protect these schools from attack, because they value them.
I am not saying that these people will not continue to live their lives in accordance with Islamic Law...that will not change. But these schools, which improve the

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

The thing is they are "reformers" analogous in some ways to the Christian reformers of the 16th century. They believe much of the past of Islam as something to reject, as the reformers believed in regard to much of the Christian past.

That's an analogy, not an identity, and like all analogies shouldn't be stretched too far. (But it's worth noting that in the Islamic calender, the current year is 1430.)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

Lost part of my post for some reason. Here's the whole thing


These people want education. They want clean water, better health care, better farming techniques, better roads to get their crops to market. To say that they should be left alone to live as they have for thousand of years is a form of racism in my opinion.
Alice is right. What Greg Mortenson's group is doing in the Mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan has meant significant improvement in the lives of the people who live there, so much so that tribemen from remote villages seek him out requesting that schools be built there. These same people protect these schools from attack, because they value them.
I am not saying that these people will not continue to live their lives in accordance with Islamic Law...that will not change. But these schools, which improve the quality of life of these people, make a real differnce in erasing the very hardship and ignorance that breed hate in the madrassas.
Do yourself a favor. Read Three Cups of Tea, and have your eyes opened.

Alice...the last trip to Bozeman I dropped off a box of donuts to the CAI offices, and they couldn't have been happier to receive them.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:51 PM

McGrath, I'm glad that's only an analogy. Does that mean we have to wait about 3 or 4 hundred more years before the Taliban join the modern world? I hope to live long enough to see it;)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:50 PM

10 Taleban Arrested in Acid Attack

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:58 AM

Oh my God!

These evil b*stards should be hanged from the highest post! I'm sorry but to let people like that live is completely and utterly beyond me. You will never de-programme them, they are like mad dogs..and should be treated accordingly.

Those poor, poor girls! No doubt they'll be scarred for life, simply for going to school.

The depth of evil behind the brain that thought that 'punishment' up is on the same parr with those who ran concentration camps.

They are way beyond sick. This has nothing to do with religion, but all to do with evil.

Sorry, but that has so upset me. Geez!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

the people of Israel stole Palestine and because of that they are the occpinan nation, the just went there and now they are causing starvtion, mayhem and murder in Gaza, the West bank and everwhere they go, they do not allow the people to farm their own land, the palastines have to ask the Israelis if they can farm their own land.

But if you back the Israelies then that's up to you

I back the Palestines and until Israel behaves like a democractic country then I'll back them after all Israel has broken 32 international laws, how many has the Palestines.

But there you go

I think it's terrible on both sides but it takes two to make a war and not just one.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

I don't back either side. I want them all to live in peace.

I'm sure the Israelis wanted to live in peace, and still do. They have never been allowed to.   

However, this thread is about the Taleban, and having seen that link above, I am sickened by the kind of minds that would spray the faces of little girls with acid, purely because they were going to school.

I find it breathtakingly worrying that you've completely overlooked that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

GOastfell:

I think you are mistaken about the "theft" of Palestine. I believe the mandate came from the Brits, IIRC.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Goatfell you really should do a bit of reading on the subject Israel did not steal Palestine.

And Amos - "I believe the mandate came from the Brits" - The former Ottoman Empire was broken up at the end of the Great War - to deal with the territories resulting from this break-up the League of Nations assigned two Mandated territories, one to be administered by the French, the other to be administered by the British.

The British "gave" no land to the Jews but did reserve 77% of the original mandated lands for exclusive settlement by the Arabs of Palestine. The remaining 23% could be settled by whoever wanted to settle there. Apart from Jews who had lived in the area known generally as Palestine for hundreds of years, there had been additional Jewish settlement through-out the latter part of the 19th century on land purchased from the Turks.

In setting up and administering both French and British Mandate areas it was the directive of the league of Nations that in each there should be "secular" areas where minorities could settle free from any religious persecution - The Lebanon in the French Mandated area and the new Palestine formed of the 23% section of the original British Mandated area, the part reserved solely for Arab settlement being renamed Trans-Jordan.

What is now known as Israel was defined by the UN in their partition plan of 1947, accepted by the Israelis and rejected by the Arabs of Palestine. Nobody "stole" anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

The stealing of Palestine was done by Britain, on the basis of a mandate from League of Nations. That doesn't mean it wasn't stealing.

If you are given the job of looking after a territory on the understanding you are doing it for the benefit of the inhabitants - which is what "mandates" were supposed to be about, a kind of trustee role - that doesn't imply a right to pass it over to a third party.

But I don't really think Goatfell's contribution belongs in this thread. As it's written in fact I don't think it really belongs in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

But just as a point of fact Kevin, Britain did not give anything away to any third party, the League of Nations Mandate whereby Britain was responsible for the Mandated Territory expired 27 years after it was granted and in 1948 and Great Britain handed the territory back to the League of Nations' successor the United Nations. By that time there was an independent Iraq, the independent Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Palestine.

It was the United Nations that proposed the two-state solution for Palestine in 1947 that the Jews agreed to and which the Arabs rejected.

So what was it that Britain "stole" in the 27 years that they were there?? Not a damn thing as far as I can make out.

Oh and Kevin this does belong in this thread, it is exactly what I thought would happen considering the subject matter - can't be seen to condemn fanatical Islamic "freedom fighters" so distract and deflect the arguement so we can all blame Jews, the big bad west and GWB - didn't take long did it??

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

so I'm not allowed to give my opinnon then, and I agree with the pople about the Taleban but then as some of you said I'm not allowed to speak my mind then what happened to free speech and expressing my views, if you don't like it well tough, that's life you have your views and I have mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

I'm not allowed to express my opinion then McGrath of Harlow.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

This is what this thread has lead to

'Cause any Mick'll do, any black, any Jew
Any poor wee soul (bugger) who's not like you
They're down from the trees and they're up from the bogs
They come round here and they steal your job
They're all the bloody same - just no' the same as you
And when a scapegoat's what you need - any Mick'll do

Gerry Conlon stood before the jury
Before the judge in his gown and his wig
And the whole damn country was sure he was guilty
Even though the evidence was rigged
And when it all came out, it was the old familiar shout
He'll be guilty of something, sure as hell
What's a Paddy more or less, and anyway, he confessed
Stick him down in his cell, and his father as well

They told Annie Maguire she was a bomber
She heard every expert witness testify
That they'd found traces of gelignite upon her hands
And British justice would not be denied
And when they found they were wrong, it was the same old song
She's a danger to us all if she's free
With every day that goes by, we're more committed to the lie
So just leave her be and throw away the key

I hate every Jew who kicks a Palestinian
And every Nazi who ever kicked a Jew
I hate every stupid bigoted opinion
And if you don't hate them too, then I hate you
But what I hate most of all is the sheer damned gall
Of a system that never thinks twice
About furthering a grudge with a jury and a judge
And when they're loading the dice, tell me who pays the price
this is a song by Brian McNiell

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

and that also goes for the Taleban, as the song says I hate every stupid opinnion, I might not have the right words to say but that is just me.
a simple person