Class-obsessed folkies

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

I find myself, unusually, in total agreement with Ms. Easby as regards her last post! - Ah, the Playford Underground - now that could link back to class discussion.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

I wonder if any Folk performer has been referred to as a ' class act!' and if so would he/she sing songs about the working class?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

One of the problems besetting the folk revival(s) is the pseudo-romanticism of a Rousseauian "Noble Savage". It shouldn't be any surprise to any student of folk music or folklore that far from being "noble" many songs contain lyrics that are as violent as any rap song by "gangsta's" today. Just because it's folk, doesn't make it edifying.

It's more apt for poorer people from agrarian cultures or those in a manufacturing community to sing of their problems then it is for the comfortable and well-heeled
but many of the songs we call folksongs were composed or written by those not from this economic class.

In the Thirties and Forties folk music was used by the Left to outline "class struggles" although there was a counter-current in the American rural South that would have been deemed politically incorrect by well-meaning Lefties. Many of these latter folk songs survive.

The "obsession" is something aside from the statistical aspect of folk music which as we understand it does come mostly from those who were denied the advantages of a middle-class education and were at the mercy of merciless politicians and business people who exploited them culturally and economically. This doesn't mean that every folk singer was poor or exploited. Some who have come from humble beginnings have made their way into the annals of scholarship such as Jean Ritchie. Even the legendary Woody Guthrie had middle-class roots at one time in Oklahoma (named after Woodrow Wilson). Pete Seeger was a Harvard drop-out with a middle-class beginning in academic circles.

But the music itself is recognizable not as an emblem of middle or upper class values but as an expression of working class people in its lyric content and reductionist music.
It also has the power to get people to sing along from all economic classes because it contains this expression of social class.

The folkies that are obsessed are like any other group of cultists or faddists.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

Tom Bliss
"After all, who wrote the song is a lot less important than who chose keep on singing it and to pass it on to the next generation."
"I find this couplet more puzzling than anything I've encountered in the world of folk."
I assume that as this thread is aimed at 'folkies' we are talking about folk songs which are almost universally anonymous and have passed through a process which have earned them their spurs as 'folk'. Nobody would begrudge you recognition nor remuneration for songs you have composed; the fact that you have attached your name to them, makes them yours. What is difficult to understand that songs which have passed through so many adaptations by so many singers over countess years so that the original composers identity has been forgotten, if it was ever known, belong to either everybody or nobody?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

There's a highly complicated constitutional technicality which boils down to the library being unable to leave the premises for what (for many) would be democratic move out of London to a cheaper and more suitable location elsewhere. This arose out of shenanigans enacted by the faction so enamoured of a building that resembles a telephone exchange that stands on an amazingly valuable plot of land that they have managed to prevent its sale.

Perhaps someone who actually understands the legal situation could explain more adequately.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

Thanks. Mine was clearly a case of a hope rather than a fact.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

While the EFDSS is the main source of funding, I think "quasi-autonomous" might be nearer the mark. There's a potted history in the VWML link I gave earlier in which it is explained:

Funding

VWML is funded and maintained by the English Folk Dance and Song Society, with additional support from the Ralph Vaughan Williams Trust, the National Folk Music Fund and many individual members and clubs. If you would like to help develop and promote the work of the Library you could:

join the EFDSS, finance a project, publication or event*, buy a book or sound recording, donate or bequeath funds or material to the Library*, donate or bequeath funds to the National Folk Music Fund*.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

Didn't mean to post as Guest.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

Sorry to go back to an earlier part of this thread and someone (they always do thank goodness) will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that The VW Memorial Library was a separate entity from Cecil S House. I believe that it has its own small budgets and occasionally receives bequests to further its excellent work. In Malcolm Taylor it has quite simply a wonderfully supportive 'main man' ably supported by Peta Webb and others. I have always found it to be a fantastic resource for anyone who wishes to have access to it. Please excuse the ramble and if I've misinterpreted a posting, forgive me, but the Library needs support from any right (or left) minded folk person, scholar or citizen - in any other country it would receive generous funding from government. Oh yes, class...today it's all about money isn't it?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:48 AM

In the immortal words of Jim Carroll (supra) :

:-)

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:07 AM

And of course it was a very good song, especially as it included the line "I'm not suggesting there's any kind of a plot, everyone knows there's not". Or something like that.

Like you say, though, it was written 40 years ago and the social landscape of Britain has changed a little since then. Sure, there's still privilege and inequality, but the divisions of class and the restrictions in social mobility aren't the same.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

"It has genuinely surprised me when otherwise affable folkies become positively vitriolic about others "getting above themselves".

Yup. I think it's maybe due to 'bitterness' though, rather than 'class' Could be wrong, of course... :0)

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:53 AM

do we really believe that invisible fingers mould palaces of gold?

They would if the sons of company directors and judges private daughters had to go to school in a slum school . . .

Not only that but buttons would be pressed, rules would be broken, strings would be pulled and magic words spoken.

As Leon Rosselson wrote 40 years ago.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

Howard said: "Nowadays there is a huge overlap in income between working class and middle class, and likewise an overlap in lifestyle - many working class people now own a house, a car, the latest HD telly, dress smartly and take foreign holidays. The distinctions have become blurred, which is why sociologists have such difficulty categorising society and politicians have such trouble trying to identify their natural supporters."

Exactly! There simply isn't a neatly definable division between so-called working and middle class social groups. Is it any wonder that political parties are desperately clawing for the centre ground? They know that the age of lifelong Labour or Tory voters is almost finished.

Jack wrote "As a marxist I am all for the abolition of the class system, but it's kept alive by those with a vested interest"

And "those with a vested interest" would be almost all of us, to some extent. Or do we really believe that invisible fingers mould palaces of gold?

Pecking orders are just a fact of life, aren't they? Not necessarily the malign ones of yore that kept oiks in their place; just look at the folk scene. It's admirable that guest singers are so approachable and don't put on airs, but I've met so many floor & resident singers/musicians who have an extremely strong view about their own talent and about the relative ability of their peers. It has genuinely surprised me when otherwise affable folkies become positively vitriolic about others "getting above themselves".

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:05 AM

I don't understand what you mean, Ralph. Clarificaton please, without insult, if possible.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

Come on Lizzie....Words of wisdom required, before Mr 3 Legs goes bang...

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: melodeonboy
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:59 AM

And would that be flat cap, trilby or top hat?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Usual nonsence of course, the obligatory "born and bred in a 1 up 1 down in Worksop and proud of my working class roots, my Dad and Grandad were miners and proud of it" syndrome.

That is all such old hat now.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

Mr Max...
Well Done!!!
Have just dug out the DVD (How Borgeoise is that!) To watch that episode again.
Class? Schmlass!!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: oggie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

"As a sole trader I own the means of my own production therefore qualify as classless as I am not a member of the exploited working class or a member of the bourgeois middle classes who own the means of production and then employ others to do the work."

I think in Marxist terms you're one of the petite bourgeoisie which means that you (like me) get screwed by everyone.

Steve

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:25 AM

"Work is the curse of the drinking class"

At last, something I can put on my tombstone.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

Ralphie, I reckon it's probably easier to categorise people by the newspaper they read. If I can quote the late, lamented Jim Hacker:

"The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country. The Times is read by the people who DO run the country. The Guardian is read by the people who think they ought to run the country. The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country. The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country. The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country. And The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who think it is"

Sir Humphrey: "And what about the Sun?"

Bernard: "The Sun's readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits"

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:18 AM

red max wrote: I don't know if this helps add some shade to the distinction, but the National Readership Survey's social grading categories at least attempt to address the complexity. See if you can pigeonhole yourself!

What's interesting in this is that whilst it moves away from a 'black and white' upper/middle/working class system, I think there's still an interesting issue regarding 'skilled and unskilled working class'. There still seems to be an element of the old system. No matter how much some of them might earn as sparkies and plumbers, they're always going to be 'tradesmen'.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:06 AM

Leveller.
Yep!
Cheers!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:05 AM

Hey Mr Max.
As a retired PA/Broadcast Engineer,(and a rubbish concertina player) where do I fit?
C2 perhaps?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:01 AM

I'm with Oscar - "Work is the curse of the drinking class".

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:57 AM

As a marxist I am all for the abolition of the class system, but it's kept alive by those with a vested interest. As a sole trader I own the means of my own production therefore qualify as classless as I am not a member of the exploited working class or a member of the bourgeois middle classes who own the means of production and then employ others to do the work.

Folk music is generally classless these days but many songs have a political or social bent to them and these do seem to come form a working class viewpoint.

Howard - it's me, stigweard as was! Hope to see you for a tune on Friday!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

I don't know if this helps add some shade to the distinction, but the National Readership Survey's social grading categories at least attempt to address the complexity. See if you can pigeonhole yourself!

A. Upper Middle Class: Higher managerial, administrative or professional.

B. Middle Class: Intermediate managerial, administrative or professional.

C1. Lower Middle Class: Supervisory or clerical and junior managerial, administrative or professional.

C2. Skilled Working Class: Skilled manual workers.

D. Working Class: Semi and unskilled manual workers.

E. [Untitled]: Those at the lowest levels of subsistence, casual or lowest grade workers, pensioners and others who depend on the state for their income.

I think "E" is the "underclass", but they're too courteous to use the term.

I appreciate that this is all quite tiresome for many, but I like categories, that's why I'm a librarian. And as such I've been intrigued to read on more than one occasion that folk song is a product of the working class which has been adopted by teachers, librarians, etc. who have no natural connection with the songs because they're "middle class". I think that's unfair and inaccurate.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Guest, Shimrod wrote: "And don't forget that many people from 'traditional' working class families took advantage of a brief window of opportunity, and increased social mobility, between the mid-60s and the fateful year of 1979 (when Maggie came to power), and became 'middle class' professionals."

Brief is perhaps a keyword there. Since then, social mobility has declined as has the extremes of relative poverty and affluence. What about the people before and after that window?

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this classic from the Frost Report yet.

Cleese: "I look down on him because I am upper class."
Barker: (looking up) "I look up to him because he is upper class," (looking down) "but I look down to him because he is lower class." (looking straight) "I am middle class."
Corbett: "I know my place."
Cleese: (looking down) "I get a feeling of superiority over them."
Barker: (looking up) "I get a feeling of inferiority from him but a (looking down) feeling of superiority over him."
Corbett: (looking up) "I get a pain in the back of my neck."

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:46 AM

Mr Max....
Yes it is a conundrum I admit.
Have played many a gig for the "Well Heeled"!
And, mainly been treated very nicely, thank you.
Yes. there have been times when I was viewed as an interesting exhibit in a zoo.
("Is that an accordeon?"....No, It's an Effing Concertina, Invented by Charles Wheatstone....."Oh Like in the "Who" song Mammas got a squeeze box....Chortle, Chortle!". No Sir Charles Wheatstone was one of the foremost scientists of the 19th century...He made a Bridge. You might have heard of it in your physics lessons....Normally shuts them up. "My God, an Oik who can spell, whatever next")
But, by and large, the Nobs have been quite polite....
Little did they know.....
I'm going to bring down the forces of "Albion" any day soon.
Mind You...The Toffs pay quite well, at least they used too)
Class is in the ability to perform, not how much you have in the bank.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:39 AM

"Most middle-class people, including many with professional qualifications such as lawyers, accountants, surveyors, architects, engineers etc, are employees, wage slaves who are no less vulnerable to being sacked, exploited or generally buggered about than the horny-handed sons of toil on the shop floor."

Mr Jones 'hits-the-nail-on-the-head' here. And don't forget that many people from 'traditional' working class families took advantage of a brief window of opportunity, and increased social mobility, between the mid-60s and the fateful year of 1979 (when Maggie came to power), and became 'middle class' professionals.

Unfortunately, those steeped in political ideology can rarely see any shades of grey - so we still get the term 'middle class' thrown around as an insult.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:14 AM

It is beyond me why anyone wants to keep alive the capitalist system.
No. I lie. I know very well why the upper echelons want to keep the proletariat (however disguised) under control.
Socisl conflict is necessary to effect polical, economic and social change.
And it gives rise to great music.
Whatever will be do after the advent of utopian socialism?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:05 AM

'Class' is used for hatred, by all sides. It is beyond me why anyone wants to keep this system of hatred and division alive.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:40 AM

Ralphie, I'm almost certain that Alfred Williams would not have been able to note music, it's not a skill that all of us possess. Whether or not he felt the tunes were important I don't know.

The one time in my life when I've been made aware of my social status was when I was a student and did some grouse beating in the summer. It was quite obvious that the shooters were well-heeled and wealthy types, and at lunchtime their picnics were extremely lavish affairs while we oiks supped brown ale from bottles in a separate room in the lodge. The thing is, though, that every shooter who ever spoke to me was extremely polite and friendly, and seemed acutely embarrassed by the perceived difference in status between us. Perhaps a key difference was the attitude of Lord Whats-his-name who was an arrogant, braying prick, and his son, who was painfully nice and friendly. I got the distinct impression that the class division was a source of discomfort for many there and was clearly on the wane.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:39 AM

"one of best the academic definitions sees those who have to sell their Labour as working class; those who live off that Labour are the exploiting class"

It's a simple polarity, but it doesn't reflect how most people view class. Most middle-class people, including many with professional qualifications such as lawyers, accountants, surveyors, architects, engineers etc, are employees, wage slaves who are no less vulnerable to being sacked, exploited or generally buggered about than the horny-handed sons of toil on the shop floor. By this definition that makes them "working class". Oh, and most didn't go to Eton and aren't on funny-handshake terms with their MP, as WLD seems to think.

On the other hand the solidly working-class plumber or joiner who runs a small business and employs one or two people is by this definition one of the "exploiting class", just like the man, the very fat man, who waters the workers' beer.

Nowadays there is a huge overlap in income between working class and middle class, and likewise an overlap in lifestyle - many working class people now own a house, a car, the latest HD telly, dress smartly and take foreign holidays. The distinctions have become blurred, which is why sociologists have such difficulty categorising society and politicians have such trouble trying to identify their natural supporters.

None of which has anything to do with music.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM

Guest, Ralphie wrote: Does anybody really care anymore?

I think so. It's changed over the years though. A lack of manufacturing industry &c. and therefore a lack of 'traditional' working/lower-class job has meant fields of employment have changed and can't used as the indicator it might have once been.

However, I think under-lying attitudes still remain. Over the last month or so, I've seen a few news pieces on how the 'middle-classes' are now having to 'slum it' in cheap(er) supermarkets and use charity-shops.

Granted, this Daily Mail column is a fluff piece - and possibly some of it is in jest - but I think some of the sneering is genuine.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Banjiman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:22 AM

I've been told I've got no class....... is that relevant?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:21 AM

I dare say we shouldn't care, Ralphie, but this thread at least is indicative that not a few people in the UK care - and care a great deal.

My son-in-law claims to be "working class", but does not see the anomaly of having been to University, and now working for one of the few remaining merchant banks [and that ISN'T rhyming slang !! :-)].

After all, we all shit, don't we ?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:19 AM

"Ruth, I can only echo your sigh ,as luck would clearly not enter into it all ... a total non-starter if ever there was one!!!! just shows how little LC knows about more recent folk history as well ?"


Er...it *is* a virtual gig, you know. I know all about Shirley and The Albions, et al. No need to worry your knickers off.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:05 AM

Can I mention Mr Williams mighty tome. "Folk songs of the Upper Thames"

Loadsa songs, Nairy a tune amongst them...
Was he right? Don't know actually. Never met him.
It's all just collecting. He chose to do it his way. And apparently gave no notice as to the tunes!
Maybe he was wrong, but, glad that he wanted the poetry.

I'm with Tom.
Quote.

"I would say that both the writer and the subsequent interpreter/transmitter is important, but I'd value those in different ways. I would not put one above the other, but rather recognise each for his contribution, in each context."

Well said.

As to Class. Is it that important as to who does what?
What is Class anyway?
Does anybody really care anymore?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM

well, thankyou for providing me with much mirth.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM

I wasn't aware of 'class' or how it could be an issue until I went to grammar school in 1979. It was an eye-opener and it made the next 5 years of my life quite difficult at times.

red max wrote: Surely "working class" is just the more polite replacement for "lower class"?

I agree with this. I'm not sure when the phrase 'working class' first came to popular usage, but I'd be interested in how and when (why?).

What makes me middle class? Is it about money?

Money can be a factor but it's certainly not the 'decider'. Think of attitudes towards the 'nouveau riche': - often money isn't enough in itself.

Bernard wrote: The Local Authority 'Music Advisor' at the time believed that there was no point in providing loan instruments for children from poorer families because they could not afford to buy an instrument if the child showed promise.

Something similar happened to me. At my grammar school, I was told that there was no use taking music as an option because I couldn't afford to own an instrument; the school simply didn't provide instruments even on a loan basis. It wasn't an issue for the vast majority of students, but for a few like me it was a 'make or break' situation. I've just read Marje's follow-on comment and that certainly reflects my own experience, albeit mine was a long time ago now.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

For the sake of scoring the 100, I'll point out that Prof F J Child didn't give a toss about the tunes, only the words. It took Mr Bronson to come along to match them up (and Andy Irvine and others to mix them up).

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

That's more like it - a debate, not "trying to stir things up". What we are discussing is the class issue of middle-class collectors protecting (alright 'preserving', if you prefer) folk music from an 'unlettered' (Sharp's word) lower class who were starting to bring the influences of popular culture (especially the music halls) into their traditional music. I make no comment as to whether this was a good or a bad thing - simply illustrating that "class" has been an issue in folk music long before the second folk revival.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:51 AM

""After all, who wrote the song is a lot less important than who chose keep on singing it and to pass it on to the next generation."
This is something that can't be repeated enough."

I find this couplet more puzzling than anything I've encountered in the world of folk.

Is this a majority view, I wonder? And if so, is this because 'users' of songs radically outnumber the creators of songs, or because creativity is genuinely of less value than presentation?

If so, can one also say that Mozart is 'a lot less important' than Rattle, or Shakespeare than Hall, or Blake than Tate (great exhibition in Liverpool at the moment by the way)?

I'm perfectly happy to concede that for cultural and educational reasons in times past, and for other reasons still in certain communities, writers were and remain content to waive their 'natural copyright' (let's not get into a debate about the term - you know what I mean) without thought or care. But in society in general, original work remains at least morally attached to its creator.

But maybe music is different. Maybe the singer IS more important than the song.

So so, where does one draw a line? Is it only with Folk Songs (as in the 54, in this case)? If so, the definition being retrospective, where does the moral change occur?

I would say that both the writer and the subsequent interpreter/transmitter is important, but I'd value those in different ways. I would not put one above the other, but rather recognise each for his contribution, in each context.

Tom

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:34 AM

"Sharp, and other collectors were more interested in the tunes than the words."

This is much more true of some collectors than others.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Surreysinger
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:33 AM

Errrmm ... I haven't actually tried to interpret Sharp in any way .... I was more interested in the sentence before the Sharp quote. More than one of the collectors actually saw their job as to collect the tunes and the words as an integral whole ... on the same lines as John Broadwood had adopted in his work of 1847. Some others, such as Vaughan Williams initially focused their attention on the tunes ... although even he later saw the error of his ways, and tried to retrace his steps to glean the words which should have been married to the tunes he had earlier collected. They were not all clone copies of Sharp!! Can't develop this, as I have to rush to catch a train!!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:19 AM

"Leveller - methinks you either jest or are deliberately trying to stir things up!!"

Why would you think that? I'm simply stating Sharp's own words. Why are you trying to reinterpret what he said to fit in with your own ideas? In actual fact, Sharp, and other collectors were more interested in the tunes than the words. Perhaps you should go back and read what Sharp wrote before shooting the messenger.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:08 AM

"After all, who wrote the song is a lot less important than who chose keep on singing it and to pass it on to the next generation."
This is something that can't be repeated enough.
"I was not aware "anonymous" was a criteria for songs or tunes getting into oral traditions"
That is true Jon; there are exceptions, particularly in Ireland, but it's worth remembering that Carolan's music does not seem to have been played continuously since it was composed (not by the folk anyway) but owes its present popularity to Donal O'Sullivan's 'Carolan; The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper' (published 1958).
I spent about a year in Manchester Central Library poring over microfilm copies of the 19th century 'Reform' newspapers which included columns of political songs; forget the titles, but seem to remember 'Black Dwarf' was among them. It's interesting to compare the somewhat turgid style of composition with the traditional songs of the period.
The same goes for the small collection of miners songs in Liverpool's Picton Library.
We were lucky while working with Irish Travellers to have witnessed a living tradition (for a short period anyway - until they all got portable televisions). There, new songs were being made regularly and sucked into the community. One of the common features of these was that despite the fact that some of them had been made within a few years of our recording them, nobody could remember who made them. Anonymity seemed to be a common feature and authorship did not seem important.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM

Don't economists thesedays use terms like C and D instead of the class terms we use coloquially? No wonder!

Traditional class labels should really be explained by the user so we know where we have common ground. Trouble is you're into writing a college essay before you make your point. Doesn't the lower-middle/upper-middle and the "somewhere-in-the-middle-middle class" example from a US contributor highlight the necessity?

As I remember, one of best the academic definitions sees those who have to sell their Labour as working class; those who live off that Labour are the exploiting class. Grey areas arise not least because since the early days of capitalism when things were simple, working class people have been encouraged/forced to own shares as well as being wage slaves, so have two hats to wear - just like the Listener who is a Singer in the folk club!

But I suggest that they are indeed utilising two hats (which hat is biggest? worn most? if you want to put someone on one side or other or the fence..... headaches!) rather than there being no such thing as hats - as some want us to believe.

However - point taken when you're a group of people in a folk club enjoying the music. I heard contributions last folk club from active members of four different (British) political parties.

Lots of other interesting point in this thread - will take a further look shortly.


Ian Fyvie