The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:30 PM

Joe F, we owe the theory of infinite sets to Cantor, but that particular definition is generally attributed to Dedekind. See, e.g., Dedekind-infinite set

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:08 PM

That verse has always impressed me in that it exemplifies Cantor's definition of an infinite set (one that contains subsets of the same size as the whole). Many earlier mathematicians had noticed that and supposed that it constituted a reductio ad absurdum of the very notion of infinity, but Cantor took it up & did something with it.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST,Samuel J. Hardman
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 11:32 PM

"When we've been there" is correct, and yes, it does make a difference. "There," in this case, means heaven. No one stays "here" (on earth) ten thousand years! "When we've been there ten thousand years" is part of a "wandering verse" that was added much later than the date of the original hymn. Indeed, I believe the "Ten Thousand Years" verse was first published in 1910. Many thanks for your interest in "Amazing Grace," and I hope this information will prove helpful.

Samuel J. Hardman

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM

OK, one more last thing. Promise.

RE the "stand for a thousand year" option, well I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure that after at least a few hundred years I'd like to sit down and put up my feet for a while   ;-)

Oh, and dancing. Gonna definitely have to do some of that. I mean, come on, it's heaven!

Peace.

within

and without

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM

Oh, BTW, not wanting to add to but rather to subtract from confusion and misinformation, when I mentioned 17 verses vs 6 verses, I probably should have used the more clear term, stanzas. The word verse has come to be somewhat inter-changable with stanza in current useage but I'm pretty sure it used to mean a single line.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST,Don B.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:06 AM

The other thing that I find "interesting" is that some one can quibble and squabble over some (IMHO) inane grammatical "rule" (no less vs. no fewer years) and miss the larger and vastly more significant issue that this is a song lyric that is looking forward to a joyous ETERNITY with a loving and amazingly gracious Creator. Stop for just a minute prying that pinecone apart and step back and admire the majestic forest.

So to speak.

Peace.

Out.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: GUEST,Don B.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:42 AM

Hmm...
I find it a bit funny that there are some who apparently think that John Newton actually sat down one day and wrote a song with 17 verses, intending for his congregation to sing it in church. As has been already pointed out here, there were six. Ironically, the verse being discussed here (When we've been there...") was not even one of the six written by Newton.
I once heard a British preacher online (Roy Hession or Leonard Ravenhill, I forget which) who was talking about his trip to America where he observed that all the songs, including those by Brits such as Newton, Wesley, etc., were all chopped down to 4 verses in American hymnals and invariably the song leader would have the congregation sing only 3 verses. So, yes, the British tradition is/ was for a few more verses but no one in their right noggin would expect people to sing 13 or 17. Come on people, reality check.
There is a rich folk tradition of adding, changing, deleting verses but those sort of "folk" are more known for their common sense than folk you might encounter online. But hey, if any of you want to get together and sing a 17, 19, or 28 verse version of A.G. well hey, go for it!   just don't put it on youtube, there's enough nonsense on there already ;-)
Peace & God Bless

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Ferrara
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 09:25 AM

In the thread titled "Amazing Grace" JVZ posted this on 1-Oct-98: ------------------------ "Let's not forget:

Shall I be wafting to the sky,
On flowery beds of ease.
While others strive to win the prize,
And sail on bloody seas.

(Note that it has reference to John Newton's early years as a slave ship's captain)" ------------------------

No source was given, but it implies that this is one of Newton's original verses. Also, dusterjim posted this:

------- From: dusterjim Date: 05-Oct-98 - 02:34 PM

" There are a total of 17 verses to Amazing Grace. They were listed in a biography of John Newton that I read once, however I am unable to locate the book again (nor did I copy down the verses) Jim " -------

Rick(atech...), you stated that "The actual verse line is 'And though we stand 10,000 years ....'"

Where did you get this version? I like it, it has a fine ring to it, but where did it come from? Why is it "the actual verse line"? Does it have a better claim than the other versions? Is it older or more recent? I know this may seem as if we're beating the song to death, but I really care about stuff like this. Otherwise, I wouldn't have saved the info from the earlier thread! - Rita F

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 05:27 PM

And Yearly Meetings are larger groupings, in some cases national, as in Britain YM, or Ireland YM, in others of smaller areas, of local Quaker Meetings. The States are quite complicated. The organisation was originally set up by George Fox, for the effective management of the Religious Society of Friends. At local level, in Britain, at any rate, is the Preparative Meeting. This is analogous to a parish, and prepares once a month for the Monthly Meeting, a grouping of several local meetings. I don't know what the Catholic equivalent is, but the Anglican is the Deanery. There was a Quarterly Meeting once, but our next level is the Kent General Meeting (diocese), meeting twice a year. Britain Yearly Meeting would be the equivalent of an archdiocese, and meets once a year. These meetings are all meetings for worship, but include other matters. Meetings for worship alone are at the local level. Now, forget all those other terms such as parish and diocese, because in the Quakers, authority resides in all the members, meeting in worship of God, and not in any one head person, since the Quakers believe in the priesthood of all believers. There are subtle differences in worship style, and many American Meetings for Worship may be much more like other churches than our British, basically silent unplanned meetings.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: he Burren Ranger.
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 04:53 PM

What matter, folks....as long as its Aretha singing it!

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Dani
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:48 PM

Joe, don't know if there's any truth to the rumor, but Winston Churchill, upon being corrected for ending a sentence with a preposition, was purported to have said it was the kind of criticism, "...up with which I will not put."

Just a tidbit that's been flotsam in my mind forever...

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Ian
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 12:02 PM

New York YM Quakers are Quakers belonging to New York Yearly Meeting of the Society of Friends. Try

WWW.nyym.org

for further details.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 07:58 PM

Well Joe, thanks for probing deeper and as you said, you're not too thrilled and I'd have to agree. That first verse you list there is REAL creative.

catspaw

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 07:41 PM

I suppose I see your point, Lloyd, but what's wrong with probing a little deeper? The mention of 17 verses piqued my curiosity the last time the subject came up, but I didn't get an answer. I imagine the reason the other verses aren't known is that they didn't stand the test to time - they just didn't work. Still, it's interesting to see what people can come up with. why not?
As my contribution, I'll add the verses from rise Up Singing that I'm not too thrilled with:

Alleluia, Alleluia,
Alleluia, Praise God!
Alleluia, Alleluia,
Alleluia, Praise God!

Amazing grace has set me free,
To touch, to taste, to feel,
The wonders of accepting Love
Have made me whole and real

Oh, Rise Up Singing says the "10,000 years" verse that I like is by John P. Rees, and the "accepting love" verse by New York YM Quakers. What are New York YM Quakers?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Banjer
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 12:14 PM

Wadda ya mean, '"dumbass, over the top posts" like the one from Cletus'? I thought it was damn touching and sad when poor ole Cletus was tellin us about how all those deceased wives of his passed over from breathing that Sevin dust, but going out in style because they was playing that "Amazing Grace" for each of them. Reminds me of my former wives, rest all their souls, they all passed away from eating poison mushrooms, all except three of them. Those three I had to take extra extreme measures with cause they wouldn't eat their damn mushrooms. Of those three, one stands out in my memories. It seemed like no matter what I did, she wouldn't die! She just got mad and up and left me one day! Oh, did I tell ya her name? Her name was Grace, and I've refered to her as 'Amazin' Grace' ever since!!

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:31 AM

Move On?!?!?!?!? Lloyd how dare you make such a suggestion?????????? It is in the best traditions of this village to keep going til the most simple shit detail is liberated and discussed ad infinitum. We've already had bookoo discussion on this song on other threads but there must be more. I do get your point though and generally one of my "dumbass, over the top posts" like the one from Cletus will kill a thread dead or at least instigate an amount of creep. But as you can see in this case, some aren't willing to give it up yet. Okay........that's the 'Cat!!! And understand that although you started this thread does not mean you have any control! Ask Art about the condom thread.

catspaw

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: lloyd61
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 09:15 AM

Thanks to all, but lets move on!!!!!!!!

Like many of you, I will stick with THERE, as I feel this is a true statement for me. At least it is the "Great Hope" Paul talks about. As I share my music with others I wish it to be "true to myself", but thanks to Rick ([e-mail]) for his insite, "when we stand 10,000 years". I like the way that sounds.

Lloyd

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Tiger
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 08:36 AM

I've seen these two verses sneaked in from time to time, but they're really part of another song, "How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds"

......Tiger

How sweet the name of Jesus sounds,
In a believer's ear.
It soothes his sorrows, heals his wounds,
And drives away his fear.

Must Jesus bear the cross alone,
And all the world go free?
No, there's a cross for everyone,
And there's a cross for me.

Subject: Lyr Add: AMAZING GRACE (John Newton)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 06:50 PM

Thanks, O nameless person. Here's something from the Univerity of Toronto Library that give some history, plus what appears to be the original version with a couple of verses I didn't know:

John Newton (1725-1807)

FAITH'S REVIEW AND EXPECTATION (AMAZING GRACE)

• Original Text: John Newton, Olney Hymns, in Three Books,

  5th edn. (London: J. Buckland and J. Johnson, 1788). Book I, no. 41, p. 43. BV 370 N48 1788 Victoria College Library.

• First Publication Date: 1779.

In-text Notes are keyed to line numbers.

---

1
1 AMAZING grace! (how sweet the sound!)
2         That sav'd a wretch like me!
3     I once was lost, but now am found;
4         Was blind, but now I see.

2
5     'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
6         And grace my fears reliev'd;
7     How precious did that grace appear,
8         The hour I first believ'd!

3

9     Thro' many dangers, toils, and snares,
10       I have already come;
11   'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
12       And grace will lead me home.

4
13   The Lord has promis'd good to me,
14       His word my hope secures;
15   He will my shield and portion be,
16       As long as life endures.

5
17   Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
18       And mortal life shall cease;
19   I shall possess, within the veil,
20       A life of joy and peace.

6
21   This earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
22       The sun forbear to shine;
23   But God, who call'd me here below,
24       Will be for ever mine.

---

NOTES

Composition Date:

before Feb. 15, 1779, at Olney, Buckinghamshire, when Newton signed the preface to the book of hymns.

Form:

abab.

1.

Based on 1 Chron. 17:16-17, "Then King David went in and sat before the Lord, and said, `Who am I, O Lord God, and what is my house, that thou hast brought me thus far? And this was a small thing in thy eyes, O God; thou hast also spoken of thy servant's house for a great while to come, and hast shown me future generations, O Lord God!'"
David refers to the promise made in 2 Samuel 7:11, "Moreover the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house."

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From:
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 05:15 PM

Here's a few extra verses Click

This site gives an early source for the 10,000 years verse Click

Just put 'Amazing Grace' in a search engine on the web, and you'll find lots of versions.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 04:30 PM

Anybody got those 17 verses???

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 06:44 AM

Sorry if Cletus put you over the edge there lloyd. He used the computer while I was in the head and I didn't know...Sorry.

As Banj said though, things do have a way of moving into the "folk process" here at the 'Cat.

catspaw

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Banjer
Date: 26 Jun 99 - 01:14 AM

Charley gives us a good example of the folk process. At the beginning of this thread John Newton wwrote the song. By time it got down to this end some feller called Newman had written it. I have always known the verse in question to go:
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing His praise,
Than when we'd first begun.

But no matter how you've learned it, the message remains about the same. Through grace we acheive life eternal.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: lloyd61
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 11:47 PM

OK, OK thats enouph!!!

Thanks for all your help.

Lloyd

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 08:38 PM

My first thought is well thank Gawd---I sorta' figgered this here thread be one a them make up a story things. Catspaw done shown me a couple an I foun 'em right huumrus. But I cain't hardly take anothern yet. But I shore do love that "Amazin' Grace" and I had it played at all of my deceesed wiveses funerals. If'n yuh dint know, they all up an married me a sayin' that they loved roses an "Amazin' Grace" and I'll be jiggered if'n they all didn't die of breathin' in that sevin dust outa' a sprayer what weren't workin' none too good.

Now catspaw tole me to say that he'd be asidin' with Ol' Joe Offer an thatn' there Big RiB feller on this 'un, but me an' Paw an' Buford like havin' things right an we don't holt with them that's a butcherin' up the American langage such as some be doin'.

So Richard and Cathy we is jist proud to be a standin' with you on this an' we're aknowin' y'all are right proud to have us'ns on yer side too. Cuz it doen matter if it's purty liken catspaw, RiB, an Joe be arguin......jes so long as it's grammerly curreck, even if it do soun kwaire.

CLETUS---

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From:
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 06:32 PM

My two cents worth - Newman didn't write the "ten thousand years" verse - it's a folk-process addition, subject to all of the confusion in grammar and sense that comes with traditional music - I know of church congregations that sing through the regulation verses referring to their books, then just fold the books and sing on when time comes to tack on this one as a last verse.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 05:07 PM

Darn it, Richard, you caught me! The real beauty of Fowler is that it has credible arguments for every side of every conceivable grammatical question. It's a great place to find arguments to support your grammatical point of view, whatever it might be. Just don't quote the parts that don't support your point of view.

Still, I stand behind my second argument. It's profound. It's poetic. And it works. People have loved that verse for years and years. Don't dare change it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:56 PM

Cathy, I'm right with you. Thank you for raising an issue which greatly vexes me too.

I don't think Joe's argument holds water - assuming Fowler to be beyond dispute for the purposes only of this paragraph. The days may not be countable but each of them is individual, and the notion of plurality rules.

Someone seems to have nicked my reprint of Fowler's first edition but I wouold have liked to check that against the text cited. Partridge's "Usage and Abusage", however, says: -

"C.C. Boyd "Grammar for the great and small" [is incorrect in approving] "There were less people at the match than I expected". - In the correct "The number of people was less" "less" qualifies "number" not "people". But "less frequently occurs in place of fewer with collectives, as "to wear less clothes"."

I would add that "days" is not a collective.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:29 PM

In another thread, somebody said there are 17 verses to this song. I've seen six, plus a couple of touchy-feely verses added by Rise Up Singing. Can anybody give us more verses?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:26 PM

OK, Cathy, you make a good argument. Ordinarily, "fewer" is used with countable nouns (fewer apples), and "less" is used with uncountable or mass nouns (less water). However, in situations like this, I find it best to go to Fowler's Modern English Usage:

This is the most vulnerable area- contexts forcing writers or speakers to choose between no less than and no fewer than - and the choice often depends on whether the notion of plurality or that of quantity is dominant.

Since the days in question can't be counted, less fits.

My personal opinion is that "We've no less days to sing God's praise" is one of the most poetic and profound phrases in our language. When you get into that area, the normal laws of grammar are suspended. If you want to question the grammar in Neil Diamond songs, I'll be right there at your side.
Now, ya wanna talk about ending sentences with prepositions?
-Joe offer-

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From:
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:26 PM

John Newton's complete six verse original of "Amazing Grace", from 'Olney Hymns', 1779, is also given here

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: LEJ
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 01:58 PM

Let me get this straight...the Guns thread, because it wasn't about folk music, was declared BS. This argument, however, is fascinating and entirely pertinent to the Mudcat. Well, Alrighty then!

LEJ (tongue in cheek)

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Sheye
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 11:49 AM

I always thought it was "and when we've lived 10,000 years"

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From:
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 08:57 AM

The actual verse line is

"And though we stand 10,000 years Bright shining as the sun, We've no less days to sing Gods praise Than when we'd first begun."

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: hank
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 08:22 AM

Okay cathey, how do your propose to count infinate days? IMHO, the song is correct grammaticly, as it is making the point that you can't count them. In other words days is intentially forced into a different form so that people like you would get a glimps of the vastness of enternity.

BTW, don't get into an arguement about infinate uncountable sets with math minors, we like this sort of thing, and will intentially drag the argument out well past any hope regaurdless of right or wrong - just for the fun of it.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 07:56 AM

Ya, know, perfection is not always the path to beauty. "We've no less days to sing God's praise" rolls wonderfully off the music lover's tongue, if not the grammarian's. And the goal of language is to communicate, and the line communicates wonderfully.

Lighten up, Cathy!

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: cathy
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 06:54 AM

I know what it means. grammatically, it should be "We've no fewer days to sing..." or, to fit, "We've no less time..." Quantities are described by "less", discreet countable things are described with "fewer" as is less forest and fewer trees. Less crowded, fewer people...

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Banjer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 06:46 AM

Cathy, I think if you look at that phrase in context you will see the authors' meaning. Actually it is part of 'We've NO LESS days to sing His praise, than when we'd first begun' Meaning that we still have as much time as eternity is long.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: cathy
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 06:39 AM

What really bothers me is the "less days" part of the same verse. It should be "less time" or "fewer days". I can sing double negatives with the best of 'em but that one gets my grammatical goat.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Banjer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 06:27 AM

I concur with "There", as it speaks of where we all hope to go rather than where we presently are. What effect does that song have on you? I can rarely listen to it without getting damp eyed, its such a beautiful song. A lone piper can make it sound sooooo good! I have a tape of a PBS show from a few years ago that explored Amazing Grace in all its various musical forms and for some reason they didn't include a bagpipe if I recall correctly. They went from John Newton's reform from the slave trade to his writing of the song and then showed it in the Southern Gospel tradition, shape note singing, opera, and various other forms. It was quite a nice show.

I think what makes it such a haunting song is knowing how and why it was written and that it speaks to anyone who cares to listen.

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: dusterjim
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 05:30 AM

Hey Joe, Feb 97, my how times fun when you're havin' flies

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:45 AM

I always thought it was 'here', and just thought it was a collective we, as in the whole human race. - but now I've seen the light. I'm a born again 'there'ist.

Kris

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:44 AM

Previous threads are here and here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: dusterjim
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 04:16 AM

"There" is correct (I certianly haven't been here for ten thousand years, nor do I plan to be). I followed the link to John Newtons original site hoping to find the complete version, but alas, there are only six verses listed there. I read a biography on John Newton many years back and it listed the original having 16 or 17 verses (I can't remember which now). About a year or so ago I posted to a thread on Amazing Grace that I would post all of the verses when I located them, and so far I haven't come across them, but I haven't forgotten (also it hasn't been on my top ten things to do list either), but hey, keep watching.

Duster

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From:
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 02:41 AM

For the John Newton's original click here

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 02:02 AM

It should be there--Heaven, that is, and the verse is an attempt to convey infinite residence there. --seed

Subject: RE: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 01:16 AM

After about 3 score and 10 it ain't gonna matter. We're all gonna be in the same place. I just hope there'll be private rooms.

Subject: The 'Amazing Grace ' Mystery
From: lloyd61
Date: 25 Jun 99 - 01:03 AM

The last verse of Amazing Grace is recorded here, (and "sing Out") as "When we've been here ten thousand years", and yet in every other son book it is "When we've been there ten..." Ok gang, What is it "here or There". and does it make a difference?

Lloyd