Public Entertainment Licences

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

I `ad that Albert Jobsworth in my cab the other day. I knew `e was on official business `cos `e `ad `is `igh visibility jacket on and a clipboard.
`e said, "I say, my man, would take you me to "h`Apple and h`Apricot" in `ackney please. I`ve got to check whether they got a Public h`Entertainment Licence or not `cos we`re told they `ave a folk club there each fortnight."
I said, "What`s it cost and what`s it for then?"
`e said, " Its £300 per h`annum its purely to pay our wages!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:55 AM

And come to think of it, I recorded it from the radio when I was living in Dubai - so you should have had ONE repeat fee.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:53 AM

I have one of those Blackmore Folkweave sessions on tape somewhere...
I have been known to go there, too, before I moved to Wales (but not since 1982)

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:04 PM

The artists would have produced a set list. Whoever they were listing song and publisher.

Which is what I do for my radio show.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM

I recently read an interesting/odd thing regarding the origins of entertainment licences in a book about Newgate prison.

In the early 18th C. there was a mini-boom of political satire, much of it coming from the Tory 'Scriblerus Club' who gave Robert Walpole's Whig's some pretty heavy stick. This group of satirists included people like Jonathan Swift, John Gay and Alexander Pope so there was some influence there.

Understandably, they weren't too popular with Walpole and the Whigs* who wanted the Scriblerus Club shut down and to stop political satires from being performed. They tried to do it by exploiting 1714 Vagrancy Act which more or less defined actors as vagrants and therefore theatres were really nothing more than a gathering of tramps! Theatre owners were subsequently charged for allowing/encouraging these vagabond get-togethers.

Obviously the theatre owners weren't pleased and saw it as the nonsense that it was. The upshot of this was that 1737 Theatrical Licensing Act came about where theatre owners had to gain an entertainment licence before plays could be staged.




*great band name for someone!

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:28 PM

"Speaking as a radio presenter your local FM station is on very dodgy ground IMHO!!

Mine would not let me do it - nor would I want to."

Why not? Years ago, the BBC had a folk radio programme (Folkweave) which consisted entirely of outside broadcasts from folk clubs. I can remember when they came to my club (Blackmore, in Essex). I suppose they must have asked for details of the songs performed, but I don't recall exactly.

I was sent an impressive BBC contract running to several pages, paying me £5.00 (less 5p National Insurance - that's my pension sorted then) and promising me untold riches for international repeat fees, which sadly never materialised.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Simon G
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

18 nonths ago I got dragged into a meeting between our landlord and and council licencing office. It turned out that when the 2003 licencing act came in the brewery had automatically applied for licences with very retrictive hours. Once this happens it is difficult to change because it gives an opportunity for those nearby to object.

What amaxed me was that the licencing department had approved whatever was applied for initially and there had been no objections. If at that stage the pub had applied for live music 24 hours a day it would have got it.

From what I remember there is no extra cost for live music on the licence. There is a cost for changing a licence and because the process encourages objectors the pub can end up with less than it has already -- risky.

I suspect as a breed landlords are not very good with licencing departments and suffer as a result.

The biggest problem for sessions and singarounds in pubs is that if you play one or more melodies or arrangements whose author has licenced it through PRS there is a £10 (inc VAT) fee per session to them - this makes local authority licences relatively cheap. Its difficult to believe a co-operative of composers has come up with such a bar to the humble singaround or session.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST,Albert Jobsworth
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:42 PM

Dear Bubblyrat,
                I am most interested in your venues in the High Wycombe area. If you would let me know where I could enjoy the music sessions I would be most obliged.
                                              A.Jobsworth

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:18 AM

Roger,

Speaking as a radio presenter your local FM station is on very dodgy ground IMHO!!

Mine would not let me do it - nor would I want to.

Unless you can guarantee none of the material is copywrite.

(The Thompson sutff for example!!)

A few years ago Sheffield City Morris made a film. We spent all day eating and drinking at the film company's expense - did our bit (which ended up on the cutting room floor) and then (casually like) said the the producer and director "What about copywrite for the music we played?"

They went white!!

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: nickp
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:46 AM

That's 7 shillings and 6 pence I've no longer saved by only having cats...

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM

Seriously, if you sell raffle tickets to the public, you need one!
But the good news is dog licences were abolished years ago.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Nick
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:14 AM

I'll check when I go singing tonight. :)

I'll check for TV, driving, broadcasting, marriage, shotgun and dog licences at the same time...

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM

Have you got a licence for the raffle? (!!!)

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Nick
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:50 AM

Les

I think your friend may be in the same situation as my friend.

We have played a weekly session/singaround at our local pub for several years after Sam Smiths moved us on.

When the licensing changes came in some years ago the owner of the pub decided he could save a few quid and not have the hassle of potentially being looked at by not ticking the box on the form (he doesn't like forms and stuff like that). We then played for a period of time unlicensed and "got away with it" until someone in the village got in touch with the Council and shopped us/the pub. The owner then had a twitchy time wondering whether he would get fined or what draconian measures might be enacted.

The reality was much less than he had dreaded. Reapplying for a change to his premises licence was very straightforward I believe and the costs then were the going amount for a pub of the size. To my knowledge there were no fines etc involved and the chap from the Council was reasonable and easy to deal with. The weekly raffle now easily pays his licence and life goes on (legally).

If your friends situation is similar to my friends situation then by all means PM me and I'm sure my friend would speak to your friend and let him know the detail of what happened if that helps. Councils may be different so your friends council might treat him differently but if it would help do get in touch.

Nick

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM

It crosses my mind that if any of us are a bit too successful, a bit too public or a bit unlucky then we could fall foul.

L in C
With his head down

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:38 AM

It's all beyond me !! I had no idea you could be "done" for having the radio on at work !!
Our "Folk Club", viz Marlow Bottom Acoustic,meets every wednesday,at four regular pub venues in the Marlow - High Wycombe area.None of the landlords seem to be the least bit concerned about the legality or otherwise of our little "performances",even letting us use amplification in certain circumstances.At all of these venues,we perform in the bar,not in a "back room ".
            I recently asked Richard Thompson personally if it was OK with him if Karen & I continued to perform some of his material, and he sportingly said that it was fine,providing that we didn't make a CD of it and sell 50,000 copies. I replied that I doubted,in that case,that we could sell even 50 copies ,to which he laughed (he does,you know !!) Similarly, I don't think that Briege Murphy is too fussed,whilst Kate Wolf would be tricky,and we haven't met Karine Polwarts yet in order to ask her.
             Last week, at our "session", a radio presenter from a local FM station recorded the entire performance with the object of playing some or all of it (it was VERY GOOD !!)both on the internet and during Marlow Regatta fortnight.He wasn't exactly shaking in his boots !!
          See you in jail !!
                  Roger...

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:52 AM

Thanks Barbara that's very clear

L in C
Currently

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: BB
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Les, if you (or your friend) is going for a one-off event, the best thing is to get a Temporary Event Notice (TEN), which costs about £20. You can have ten or twelve (can't remember) of these in the same place a year. This means that, if entertainment is not on the Premises Licence, the event would still be legal, and it can't be refused without an extremely good reason.

If, however, you want a regular session, the Premises Licence must include the entertainment permission. If it doesn't, it can be added - at a price. We were quoted £120 to add permission to show films to our village hall's Premises Licence. This is a one-off, not annual. It might be that the premises concerned will have to go through hoops to obtain the permission though - that depends on your local Council.

The entertainment section is usually for music, and does not include, for instance, drama. So legally it doesn't enable you to do a mumming play (without a TEN), but our local Council doesn't seem to worry too much about that - but we don't advertise a performance anywhere where they don't have at least the entertainment permission, and that has to be somewhere *very* remote, where local government officers are unlikely to be! In practice, most of the landlords locally are very aware of the need for the entertainment permission, and don't let sessions or anything else happen without it.

Hope this helps.

Barbara

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:16 PM

It is also a total lie to assert H+S because the HSWA would apply anyway in licensed premises.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:44 PM

I understand how you feel C of F, I think most of us feel the same. I don't want to go over old ground but large scale musical events need Risk Assessment. I think the cut off point was made far too low and folkie events have suffered.

But I am much interested in how people have survived.

L still in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST,Confused of Kent
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

Would someone, preferably from a county or town council, please explain why a bar full of people enjoying a social drink, a chat, a bit of banter and perhaps a game of darts presents a Health & Safety hazard as soon as a couple of entertainers or more do their stuff together? Fire hazard? Possible riot? Trampling under foot when leaving? Possible aural damage? Some time back a spokesman for the licencers, when asked what do the tenants and customers get from the council for having paid the licence fee trotted out the H&S excuse, not very convincingly.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: The Barden of England
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

L no longer in C, the Premises License should be on show at the premises, stating who the 'Premises Supervisor' is, the licensing times and any 'Licensable Activities'. It will show on there.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM

I'll get me coat

L no longer in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:45 AM

Yes, I think the potential maximum fine is £30,000

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:06 AM

Thanks Bard,

is the 'Premises License' is easy to access?

L in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: The Barden of England
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:45 AM

LIC - There is no such thing as a PEL anymore, the Licensing Act 2003 stopped all that. If your friend did not 'tick the box' for licensable activities then I believe he will be acting unlawfully and would be liable to a huge fine or even a 6 month prison sentence. If he did then the 'Premises License' will show that permission and all should be fine. There are others here who know far better than I though so I could be slightly out. Basically if it's not on the 'Premises Licence' then it's not allowed.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM

Let me be blunt:

A "friend of mine" is concerned that if he advertises a session in a pub without a PEL the Council will find out and stop the session.

Another "friend of mine" is concerned that a pub with a session might not realise it needs a PEL and if it does it might stop the session.

Please advise my "friend"

L in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: eddie1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM

I notice a brief reference to MCPS (mechanical copying of material) An interesting example of them grabbing you by the short hairs is if you are doing a radio broadcast, Ofcom, who issue the two broadcasting licences required, also require you to record your output and retain it for 42 days. This is so that if anyone should contact them with a complaint about anything from bad language to inciting a riot, Ofcom can ask for a recording of the particular broadcast then make a decision.
OK, you're required as a condition of the broadcasting licence, to record everything therefore you need an MCPS licence to record it. This on top of a PRS licence!

Eddie

ps. Heard a rumour that PRS are looking into the subject of recorded music being played in crematoria. I guess they need a PEL licence as well!

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:11 AM

I am tempted to assume from the responses that PELs have not been the problem that had been anticipated?

Stoke 1 City 0 much gloom.
Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

Ah, got it now ........... the brain cell is tired and emotional City 1 Newcastle 0 but who knows.

I am tempted to assume from the responses that PELs have not been the problem that had been anticipated?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Sorry, Les; it was late at night. That was a feeble attempt at a humorous comment on the increasing legal interventions and complications attending the making and broadcast of music ...

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

How about Greater South Yorkshire then Dave,

Les

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

Don't know Manchester very well at all. Not for a long time anyway.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm,

I have puzzled on this "meself", so to speak but don't get much understanding, please help.

L in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

Bleak House: The Musical.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 04:29 AM

Dave do you know of any clubs in Greater Manchester that have had trouble with PELs?

L in C

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:24 PM

It wasn't particularly PEL's. It was anything that needed paying for and any kind of licence. That includes Sky, PRS licences, MCPS etc etc. Because there i

Sam Smith's pubs only sell Sam Smith's products. They sell lager, gin, whisky etc made by Sam Smith's.

It has to make some sort of business sense - beer is around £1.30 a pint. (Not a typo for you southerners - one pound thirty pence).

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM

Didn't Sam Smiths decide not to have PELs altogether?

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Nick
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:28 PM

The pub I go to most weeks did not originally have a licence but subsequently did when he was visited by the council who had been told about the music by someone in the village (which was very neighbourly)

I believe that Sam Smiths didn't used to in the days when they had music - I know that the one in Farlington near us definitely didn't.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

Sorry but ...................

My question is have we in general survived PELs and if so is that because of compliance on the part of most pubs or smaller Folk Clubs in smaller rooms just ignoring the problem and carrying on with out PELs?

Do local authorities come looking or is their tacit agreement to let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak?

L in C
No names no pack drill?

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:34 AM

In any case my home is my workplace as I am self-employed.
Maybe I shouldn't allow myself to listen to the radio while I work.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:23 AM

TV licence is not related to the PRS licence.

I don't recall seeing anything to say that PRS only covers business, either...

Don't give them ideas!

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:54 AM

... b-b-but if I don't have a television, I don't have a TV licence ...

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Gedi
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:33 AM

I'm no expert but I dont think this applies to households (ie non-businesses). Your TV licence covers you for when the next door neighbour pops in for a cuppa - mind you so it should for the price of it!

Ged

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:26 AM

... and headphones, so we don't hear each other's radio?

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

That would mean that if I have my radio on in the kitchen and my friend can hear it from the living room I need a licence. And if there are two of us in the room, do we need a radio each?

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Gedi
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

I heard something on Radio4 a few weeks ago about having to have a licence (for copyrighted material I think) if you have a radio playing where anyone other than yourself can hear it. This effectively gets any factory where employees (or indeed the company itself) is playing a radio, also it covers shops where staff and/or customers can hear the music. It seems that the authorities who look after these things are clamping down on it, and I know for a fact that the factory where I work has been 'asked' to get a licence to cover such radio broadcasts.

However, the performing of live music in a pub is something different and I'm not sure on the position here. What if all the music played is out of copyright? Therefore there can be no copyright fees due can there?

Ged

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:37 AM

The only case tending to support an argument that the workforce themselves are not the public is a very old one (might be 1909) about nurses, and you know how much judges like nurses!

I think Kwik-Fit took a big fall on the point in Scotland quite recently.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: pavane
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:17 AM

PRS have recently obtained a fee from a car repairer because his staff listened to the car radios in vehicles they were repairing.

They will claim that if it can be heard by a customer (Or any member of the public) then a fee is required.

Subject: RE: Public Entertainment Licences
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:19 AM

I am a bit confused about the meaning of 'public'.
Does it mean that a radio playing in a workshop at the back of a shop, which could be heard by customers buying its products or bringing items for repair, counts as 'public', whereas a workshop on an isolated farm, where the radio would only be heard by people who worked there, or a secure warehouse that members of the public are not allowed in, would not require a licence?
If the only criterion is that a member of the public can hear it, maybe private houses with their windows open require a licence. And what about car radios?