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giving money tips at english folk clubs

The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM
Will Fly 24 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM
The Villan 24 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM
TheSnail 24 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM
Marje 24 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM
DMcG 24 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM
Megan L 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM
Fidjit 24 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM
Fidjit 24 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM
Geordie-Peorgie 24 Jan 09 - 01:24 PM
The Villan 24 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM
Rafflesbear 24 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM
Leadfingers 24 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM
meself 24 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM
Herga Kitty 24 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM
Acorn4 24 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM
the fence 24 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM
breezy 24 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM
Leadfingers 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM
The Villan 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Smokey 24 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM
Leadfingers 24 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM
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The Sandman 24 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM
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Phil Edwards 26 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM
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meself 28 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM
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peregrina 28 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM
Peace 28 Jan 09 - 12:04 PM
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GUEST,Smokey 28 Jan 09 - 06:10 PM
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peregrina 28 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM
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Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

above, should read, English Folk Clubs ,unsolicited tips ,


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM

I was chatting to some US buddies on a diferent forum some time time ago about this.

There's a very different culture in the US from over here, with people playing in restaurants, coffee shops, etc., keeping a tip jar handy for that purpose. Seems to have migrated to Ireland as well.

Do they do this for the guest artist in Irish pubs - or floorsingers as well, etc.?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

Dick
Is this when you are playing for nowt?

If you are getting a fee, then why would anybody give you a tip. I could give you a tip - Would you like a job with sex and travel. Only kidding :-)

Seriously, isn't that like passing the hat round.

I guess the idea is good, if you aren't getting paid by the organiser.

Wether you could enforce everybody to give a tip, is another matter.

If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.

I wouldn't give a tip if I was told I had to. I once went to a very posh restuarant where they told me I had to give a tip as part of the rules of the restuarant. It was an excellent restauarant, but I refused as I was not going to be told to do something against my wishes. They didn't like it and I had to argue with the manager, before the meal. I agreed in the end, that if I liked the service, I would give a tip. I gave 10 pence and got the hell out.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Not for the organisers, obviously.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I never play a paid gig for nowt.
If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.[quote aston villa supporter]
that is what I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves.
most professional folk singers earn less than catering staff,so it is perfectly logical.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

I'm not sure quite what's being suggested. Folk clubs in England are usually in a separate room, and many or most people attending participate, and/or pay an entrance fee. I don't see who could be expected to pay a tip, or to whom.

Sessions in public bars are a bit different, and the public do often seem to enjoy them, but they can hardly tip everyone playing in the session. I suppose when we play we could have a tip jar sitting around somewhere, but really it's just not part of our culture to be looking for money when we do this. Most of us do it for ourselves and for the love of the music, and don't expect to be tipped. Occasionally I've played where a collection was made for a charity, but not for the players.

Or maybe you're talking about being booked as a paid soloist to play in a bar? I think if I see someone playing in a restaurant etc, I'll assume that they're being paid a reasonable fee by the management for doing this, and wouldn't feel any obligation to offer them more money - in fact I'd feel embarrassed to do so.

Again, I think there's a cultural difference between the US and the UK. Americans generally tip more often and more generously than the British. One reason for this is that many of the people who receive the tips in the US are very poorly paid, and they're a lot less likely to be receiving any state benefits in the US than in British society.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with tipping, and feel it's patronising. People say Britain is much more class-conscious than the US, but to me, tipping is a class-based habit, and I'd rather live in a more egalitarian culture where it wasn't regarded as normal or necessary.

Marje


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

I don't like tipping in general, as it is too often used by employers to pay their employees less than they are worth. Instead, I always buy one of the players' CDs (where available.) Most of the CDs I own I got that way, and in most cases I probably would not have bought them at a music shop simply because they are not readily available.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

If its in an open pub some of them should be made pay folk for inflicting themselves upon them


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

When did you last tip tour plumber?

Chas


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM

that should read your plumber of course.

You all know I'm dyslectic.

A dyslectic walked into a bra.

Chas


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:24 PM

...... and said, "OUCH!!!" It was an iron bra!


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

Well Dick, I would have to give you my

Would you like a job with sex and travel


I remember when the rubbish men knocked the door at Xmas for a tip.
I always said "Nobody gives me a tip when I am doing my job. Why should I give you a tip"


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

Print up some combined info sheets/gig lists and sell them for a quid


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

Having to pay an admission AND being expected to tip the PAID performer is NOT on ! Do Americans leave a tip at a Theatre or Concert that they have bought tickets for ??


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM

"if I see someone playing in a restaurant etc, I'll assume that they're being paid a reasonable fee"

In my experience - in North America - that's a very questionable assumption ...


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

I would think tipping, unless sanctioned by custom, rather patronising.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Dick - your thread title is about English folk clubs. Not about free sessions in pubs.

I don't expect money if I'm singing for fun in a pub, but I've had a few free pints from customers and landlords! (And a request to sing at a wedding, but it clashed with Sidmouth).

Kitty


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

Dick - whilst it's clear that you were paid for your Irish gigs, and rightly so, what is not clear is whether the audience had paid an entry fee. I would think that would make a difference to their attitude regarding tips. Somehow though, I can't see it ever happening in an English folk club. As relatively poorly paid performers we always welcome a few bob extra if it comes our way, not to mention the implied compliment, but in a situation where a member of the public has effectively made a contract with the organisers by paying an entrance fee it doesn't seem fair to expect more than one's prearranged performance fee. All in all, I don't think tipping should be encouraged anywhere, except where people are volunteering their services for nothing. It just gives employers an excuse to pay less in wages or fees. That could be seen by some as an opportunity for 'creative accountancy', but not at the financial level of the great majority of folk artists. As a performer I'd rather know how much I'm getting before the event, and as a punter I'd rather pay the same as everyone else for what I'm getting. I think in (UK) folk clubs it would be a nice gesture to lob a few shillings at a floor-spot if they were particularly good, but I can't see that becoming a common practice - I've never thought of it before, and I've never done it.. Perhaps there are people out there who are less mean than myself :)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

If you want tips, go busking.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

no the sessions, I am referring to are not free,because the landlord has put the price of the beer up.
LEAD FINGERS,if a person came up to you and offered to buy you a drink,because they enjoyed your playing,would you turn around and say,no its against my principles,because I am a paid performer,and youhave paid an entrance fee.
no, of course you wouldnt, and neither would I.
Furthermore if a member of the audience,came up to me ,and said I really enjoyed the night,have a couple of quid extra,I would say thankyou very much,and I bet most other performers would to,in fact in these days of low drink driving laws,its more sensible than buying the guest a beer.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: the fence
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM

If someone has appreciated the effort you have put in, to give a good performance, and wish to give you a couple of quid extra. I don't see that as a problem, it would probably be rude not to accept their gift.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM

no the sessions, I am referring to are not free,because the landlord has put the price of the beer up.

But do the Americans know that?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: breezy
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

I dont mind being patronized, in fact I'll encourage you.

thank you Marie

now , March 27th at the Pumphouse Watford

come on down

or Sunday 1st Feb at the Plough, Hemel, if you cant wait


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

In the Medieval Society for Creative Anachronists, my daugher brought home a silver Jefferson cup that was passed around during bardic circle at one of the many events she attended. The cup was passed around and filled while everyone took turns singing. After there was some kind of vote (I suppose) to determine who would take the cup. I am not certain, but I think that is how it went.

I remember the cup she brought home was filled with mostly coin. But there was some paper money, beads, tokens, jewlery, coupon, elastic band, used bandage, button, paperclip, pen cap, unused wooden matchstick, plastic spider ring, bobby pin, peanut.

We could start passing a tankard. It holds loads more than a little jefferson cup. I have loads of beads and some very interesting buttons.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

Dick - When I am gigging , I REGULARLY turn down offered drinks , because I am normally driving , and cant afford the chance of a Drink Drive conviction (Aside from the stupidity of Drunk Driving)
and the only time we get 'tips' is when we are doing street entertainment , when it would indeed be churlish to refuse a few coins .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

Agreed Fence, but that is their choice. I don't think people should be forced to do that.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

I'm sorry Dick, I think I may have misunderstood your original post - do you mean an American habit in which the Irish participate, or Americans in Irish pubs?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

If people read the original post,I am referring to voluntary spontaneous gifts, tips, etc.
Americans in pubs in Ireland frequently tip the performer,and very welcome it is too.
if anyone feels[at an English folk club] that they would like to show their appreciation,by giving me an extra couple of quid ,I feel it would be churlish to refuse.,and certainly of more use than a beer.
I normally travel by train to my English gigs[partly because of the aggressive nature of English drivers[sober or otherwise]and partly for environmental reasons,so of course I can appreciate a beer after my gig,in fact I frequently do get bought a beer as a token of appreciation.
my advice to leadfingers is take the train beat the strain,book in advance and its cheaper than going by car and better for the environment .yours sanctimoniously Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

My brother is a paid singer pianist in a posh hotel in Orlando. I don't know how much he is paid, but I know he really relies on the tips he gets. I also know that when tourism fell after Spetember 11 2001 the hotel cut down his perfroming nights per week.

He also has stiff competition from New Orleans musicians who have settled in Orlando after Katrina. I guess in the credit crunch will make things even worse.

In the US it is expected that there will be a receptacle for gratuities and it is very easy to put a few dollars into a jar or hat.
But how to manage it in the UK without insulting the musician who isn't advertising in such a way?

I think a tip jar or hat at least makes it clear that gratuities are gratefully accepted.

There was a time that my brother took the edge off his tip jar (a giant brandy snifter) by wrapping a teddy bear around it and putting some little sign like Money for my honey, or some such.

In the UK, roaming folkies, need to pay for petrol or public transit and accommodation expenses and food. Would it be so terrible for them to set up say a VW campervan bank on table with note, "Help me get home?"

It would encourage me to donate to UK musicians who made the effort to come a distance to perform. I mean, really do they make that much even if they are a paid guest? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:16 PM

It would seem, as someone said above, that Americans have more of a 'tipping culture' than we do in the UK. (around here, tipping is more to do with old mattresses in quarries) It is indeed bad manners to refuse a gratuity though, and can be seen as an insult by some tippers. As a 'tippee' though, I really don't mind being patronised as long as they're paying.. Sometimes good manners are more important than principles :)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM

Letting the train take the strain is all very well Dick , but it wont take the strain of an overnight bag and three instrument cases from the station to the Gig ! I often wish I had just stayed with Whistles , or taken up the concertina !


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

I once went to a very posh restuarant where they told me I had to give a tip as part of the rules of the restuarant. It was an excellent restauarant, but I refused as I was not going to be told to do something against my wishes. They didn't like it and I had to argue with the manager, before the meal. I agreed in the end, that if I liked the service, I would give a tip. I gave 10 pence and got the hell out. (The Villan)

I agree The Villan's post, but I would strongly advise anyone intending to eat in a restaurant, however posh, to never under any circumstances upset the staff until after they have prepared and brought all your food.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

You want a tip?
Stop begging!
If a venue pays you, be happy.
If a punter pays you, likewise.
But don't think a tip is a birthright.
The few times I've been offered money when performing informally in public, I've told people to put it in the charity box.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

But don't think a tip is a birthright.[quote]
nobody suggested that it was.,neither is anyone begging.
I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

>>I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs. <<


Forget it Dick


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM

Pops Head over parapet !

          Isn't 'American Culture' an Oxymoron ?

                                                and Runs Like Hell !!


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

I remember fumbling in a bar once. Oh the irony of it.

Chas


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:37 PM

No-one's mentioned the very common practice of "bottling" in the UK. I've played in several venues where the landlord allowed a member of the band's entourage to take a hat, or a plate, or a bottle or an instrument case around the listeners - just before the end of the evening - and collect contributions. This - for some obscure reason, in a culture that's not very comfortable with tipping - always worked, particularly if the bottler was a pretty girl (no sexism intended - just a very basic fact of life).

In the days I'm talking about, a band member might get, say £20 for the gig, plus around £4-£5 from the bottle. No-one ever seemed to mind - and very few refused.

At a folk'n blues club near me, there's no charge - someone comes round with a pint pot just before closing, and we all pop a quid or whatever in - just for the purpose of keeping it all going.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

No problem with a collection at a free Entry Pub Gig !


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:34 PM

Villan.
think how europeanised, England has become since the 1950s,everything changes,and changes much quicker than is often predicted and in this computer age will change even quicker.
professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff,why the Dickens shouldnt they be tipped,if the member of the audience has enjoyed the evening,and does so voluntarily.
as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

why the Dickens shouldnt they be tipped,if the member of the audience has enjoyed the evening,and does so voluntarily. as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink.

Absolutely right, as long as it doesn't become expected or compulsory - but it's very unlikely..

professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff

Are you sure about that?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

Dick - no-one's suggested preventing someone tipping a booked artist. They've just said it's unlikely to happen in England. If someone really appreciates the booked artist they'll buy the merchandise!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:08 PM

Dick, I'm with others - esp. Leadfingers and Gervase 24 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM .
You bleed for you art and, thereafter make a difficult living or become famous and make a load of bobs.
If a member of the audience wants to buy you a drink, or stick a fiver in your pocket - great ! - but - it won't become an habit in English Folk Clubs.
Why should it ? you have pitched your Fee at a level that you and the organiser have felt is reasonable.
If circumstances demand that you require a "top-up" to the Fee then my previous sentence is even more succinct.
If you can't make a reasonable living , then you may need a re-think the whole thing, or in place of the agreed Fee, tell the organiser you will accept - the contents of a "bottle" (glass) collection [Dangerous]
You have chosen a difficult Road ,and good luck to ya',but in-house busking , and Folk Club performance are two entirely different matters.
I don't like your proposition and hope it never occurs in English (or British ) Folk Clubs - people as individuals are entitled to pop some money in you top pocket if they so wish to do so , but if I find that after paying an entrance Fee, I am asked to make further contribution to the performer's coffers - it will be greated by me with a firm Feck off.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:45 PM

Tipping the performer in America is only done as far as I know in venues where the audience has not paid an entrance fee. So this usually means a bar, pub, restaurant, coffeehouse, etc. I've never seen it done at a concert. At most bars or pubs, it's expected that the performer will have a tip jar on stage within easy reach. I've played at pubs and occasionally forgotten to put the tip jar up and people would come up to the stage and ask where it was. There is no assumption on the part of the tippers that the performer isn't being paid a fee, the patrons tip to express their appreciation if they have enjoyed the music. Sometimes they'll tip after a particular song they like, or sometimes they'll drop something in the tip jar as they are leaving. There is no obligation and I've never seen a performer (except jokingly) try to solicit tips. Tips can really add up over an evening if everybody is having fun. Sometimes the tips can be almost as much as the fee. I don't think it is patronizing when people leave a tip. They just want to let the performer know that they enjoyed the evening's entertainment.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:48 PM

What Mary said - tips are never an obligation, just an expression of being particularly appreciative of a certain performance.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:54 PM

It's a pretty good crowd for a Saturday,
And the manager gives me a smile
'Cause he knows that it's me
That they've been coming to see
To forget about life for a while
And the piano sounds like a carnival
And the microphone smells like a beer
And they sit at the bar AND PUT BREAD IN MY JAR
And say "Man what are you doin' here?"


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:13 AM

TIPS
T - to
I - insure
P - proper
S - service

Here in the states there is a miminum wage law. Employees have to be paid a certain amount "EXCEPT" certain service workers, like wait staff, bartenders & the like, it doesn't matter if their employer is cheap or not, they get & are expected to get tip on their service/performance. They can get paid far less per hour than the mininum because they rely legally on tips, this is as per IRS laws (they are supposed to be taxed on their tips too. Go to almost any bar or resturant in the US (fast food types are not included) & you're expected to tip ('If you can't or won't tip don't go out!') generally between 10%-20%. If I go out to a session (I only drink soda/pop) which at times cost anywhere from $1-$2, sometimes I'm only charged for the first drink. I leave a tip the size of that I would leave if I were buying a real drink. At one session the players drink for free at others they pay for the first at others the session leader buys drinks at random at others you buy no matter.
I've been bought drinks at sessions some times for singing (I was not what in the UK would call a floorsinger, we generally don't have that here), sometimes at a small session some patrons may buy a few rounds for the players but I haven't seen anyone single out one player & tip them that would be rude but I've never here seen a paid musician get tipped, maybe a drink. Some performers when playing bars may ask if there are requests & if there are "write them on a ten dollar bill & send them up", they may get tipped for doing requests but it's not to common like that, though it does happen from time to time. If in a swanky resturant & there's a strolling musician & you make a request when that musicain comes by your table & you stop them, you should tip them, in that case. I've also seen the hat past but not by musicians that are getting fairly paid. There is a session in the San Francisco area where the session leader passes a hat & you'll be embarassed if you don't put in, I don't know if the hat money goes to the musicians, to the session leader(s) & I don't know if the session leader(s) gets paid by the bar but that's also very uncommon. When playing outdoor dances or parties weither paid or not a tip jar is not considered unsocial either way, paid or not, wedding parties are different they may get tipped by whoever is paying them for a job done extra well but again not usually by a patron. So in general, paid musicians in the US don't get tipped while playing a paid gig under ordinary situations

Barry


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:34 AM

I just read Virgina Tam's post about her paino bar/hotel playing brother. Yes, that's an exception to what I said above in the US. I don't know how it works in the homky Tonks in New Orleans or N.O. culture. If there is a tip jar present I'd ask the staff what the custom was but if a jip jar is present & they've done a good joj then a tip woul be encouraged, as Mary says but here in the Northeast I don't see many tip jars unless the players are either underpaid or not paid at all, which I can't remember seeing or hearing about.

Barry


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: breezy
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:33 AM

but a piano man will always do better than a squeeze er

Thanks for the Billy Joel lyric Alice but please acknowledge credit


and we still have our pound

I believe us Brits do not favour tipping, its not our way ,though we will, but we dont really like the practice.

We dont like v a t either.

Musicians are not owed a living ,they have to earn one, its a choice, to struggle, which in turn means scraping by, which can be interpreted as having to crawl and bum lick, which is no more than begging really. But some like to do it.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:44 AM

Leadfingers

Isn't 'American Culture' an Oxymoron ?

Unless you mean like a culture growing in a petrie dish.

It's OK! I can poke fun, cuz I are one!


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: LesB
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

"this is as per IRS laws (they are supposed to be taxed on their tips too."
The law is the same in the UK. People in the service industries are assumed to earn tips & an amount is set by the Tax people upon which you are taxed.
That's not to say that i would tip a paid performer in a folk club, but I may buy them a drink or buy a CD.
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marilyn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM

I hope the practice of tipping never catches on in folk clubs.
I absolutely loathe tipping and find it very embarrassing for the tipper and demeaning for the 'tippee'. I, for one, would much prefer it if tipping could die out altogether so that restaurants, hairdressers etc. didn't have the excuse to pay low wages.

Just my tuppence worth :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

>>as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink<<

I agree entirely Dick. However, that is their decision, not the performer or organser. I have been known to buy a performer a drink at other peoples clubs.

If somebody said I had to buy a drink or indeed tip, then I would also say "get lost".


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:28 AM

Here in the states there is a miminum wage law. Employees have to be paid a certain amount "EXCEPT" certain service workers, like wait staff, bartenders & the like, it doesn't matter if their employer is cheap or not, they get & are expected to get tip on their service/performance. They can get paid far less per hour than the mininum because they rely legally on tips

That's certainly true for the US, and is probably the reason most UK people don't like the practise. The idea of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" has a very strong history here. Added to which the idea that a service is quoted as xyz but we all know it is 'really' going to cost xyz+10% for tips grates.

[True story as an aside: The first time I went to the US was on business and my boss told me to tip everything at 10%-15%. "Everything?" I asked. "Everything", he confirmed. "Don't try to understand it, just do it. It's the American way."

When I left the hotel after a fortnight's stay the receptionist was very pleased with her tip of a few hundred dollars. My boss, less so.]


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs."

But, as people have already said, that aspect of American culture has developed for a particular reason.

"professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff".

I'm not so sure about that. Catering staff (not the owners of the business, but rather the people on the floor) tend to be paid hourly like most other people. Unlike professional or semi-professional performers, travelling expenses and the like tend not to come into it: you're paid for actual job against the time you actually do it - work per hour. On that basis, I'm not really sure about many professional or semi-professional performers get paid £5.73 to, say, £7.50 for an hour-long set.

I'd rather buy a cd, t-shirt than give a tip. Given that the likes of a minimum wage were so long in coming in the UK, I think it's pretty messed-up that you want to bring over a custom from America that is pretty much out-of-step with the rest of America's employment rights in the first place.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM

villan,
you dont read my posts,I never suggested that anyone should be forced to tip.[voluntary,was my phrase]
I am saying that I think the spontaneous voluntary tip,is a gesture that I appreciate,and that if anyone wishes to tip me in an English folk club,Whether buying a drink[soft or alcoholic] or giving me a couple of quid,I have no objections.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:54 AM

Barry Finn wrote: "go to almost any bar or resturant in the US (fast food types are not included) & you're expected to tip ('If you can't or won't tip don't go out!') generally between 10%-20%. If I go out to a session (I only drink soda/pop) which at times cost anywhere from $1-$2, sometimes I'm only charged for the first drink."

I think another factor in this is, generally speaking - expensive restaurants aside and perhaps pre-credit crunch economy too - I've been told that going out to eat and drink is said to be cheaper in America than in the UK in the first place.

For what it's worth, the only place I know where I can get free refills on a coffee is IKEA!

Also, I often baulk at 'chain' coffee places having a tips jar next to the till when I've had to queue 5-10 minutes to get served at the counter (no finding a table and waiting for a waitress to take the order!) and then take my own drinks to a table. What is the (hoped-for) tip actually for in this scenario?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Best tip you will get if you try that here is "Dont give up the day job. Next"


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:48 AM

On the one hand:
I would not want to regularly patronize a folk venue that was striking such a tough deal with performers that they needed tips. Sweatshop acoustic music? No thanks. But I do know guess a tough living it is playing small venues. I'd rather express my appreciation and support the performer by buying CDs from them.

On the other: I am sure some members of the audience would feel pressured and uneasy about this. And the pub needs support too. Another pound or two to the performer, or to the pub that's giving the space, maybe for free? I know my choice.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L - PM
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Best tip you will get if you try that here is "Dont give up the day job. Next".
if you visit my website MEGAN,You will find that I gave the day job up in 1976,and havebeen playing regularly at folkclubs and festivals ever since .http://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM

Then stop whinging and beggin we dont like moochers up here


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

If you want to busk, get out on the street in all weathers, like real buskers do.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

It still sounds to me as if the American habit (either in Ireland or in the US) relates to a different situation. Cap'n B is talking about playing in a bar where people have not paid an entry fee, but pay inflated prices for the drinks. They are not really aware of paying for the entertainment, and may therefore wish to make a contribution.

English folk clubs are quite different. If there is a paid performer, there will be an entrance fee at the door, and the people attending expect that this (often topped up with funds from non-guest nights that are run at a profit, or from a raffle) will ensure that the performer is paid a proper fee. Part of the entertainment will also be provided, for free, by residents and other floor-singers who have helped raise the money on other club nights, to enable the club to pay the guest.

I don't think it's appropriate to encourage or expect tipping, and I'd be sorry to see it become a regular habit. Before long, you could find that organisers were offering lower fees to guests, on the understanding that tips would make up the balance. People would become embarrassed and confused as to what was expected of them. What if they enjoyed a floor-spot by a club member performing for free, do they slip him a couple of quid too? If they really enjoy the guest performer, they should make a point of telling both the guest and the organiser and thanking them at the end of the evening, and consider buying a CD, or going to see the guest again at another venue.

Sorry, tipping is one Anerican habit that I do not want to see become any more prevalent in Britain. There are better ways of promoting and encouraging folk music.

Marje


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

Iam not demanding tips.
I am saying that I appreciate the American habit of tipping,Iappreciate it when people buy me a drink[soft or alcoholic],I appreciate it when people buy cds.
I appreciate just as Ido when Iam busking,peoples generosity.if anyone wants to give a voluntary tip[in an English folk club],I appreciate that too.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

If you appreciate that Dick, then let the audience decide on wether they will buy a CD, or buy you a drink or give you a tip. Don't try to force it.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

The thread title is about folk clubs. These are usually concert-type events where the performer is paid a fee and the audience pays to get in. In some cases, rather than pay a fixed price on the door the hat will be passed around, but it is usually understood that this is a donation for the music and not a tip. Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.

Where a group of musicians are playing in a pub session and someone offers to buy drinks or give a tip, then it would be ungracious to refuse. In some circumstances, for example where the session is in effect an informal concert intended to entertain the pub audience, then it might be acceptable to pass the hat. However most of the sessions I play in are primarily for the enjoyment of the musicians and it would not be acceptable to put the hat round any audience who may be listening.

The only situation where a tip (and a tip jar) might be acceptable is where the musician is providing background music eg in a restaurant, where they are effectively in the same position as the other staff.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

john mackenzie,I have busked many times.
Megan,I am not begging or whingeing,I have opened a discussion,to which others have put their views,there is no reason,to turn this into a personal attack.,you are entitled to an opinion,so am I,we are entitled to disagree.
it should be possible to have a discussion on this forum,where by people express theoir opinions without being unpleasant.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:37 AM

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan - PM
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

If you appreciate that Dick, then let the audience decide on wether they will buy a CD, or buy you a drink or give you a tip. Don't try to force it.
Iam not trying to force it,Ihave brought it up for discussion to see what peoples views are,in my original post it is the word UNSOLICITED.Unsolicited, means without coercion or force.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.[quote Howard Jones]
my whole point.
for example, an American may come to an English folk club.pay an entrance fee and still want to tip me,I would say thankyouvery much Iam glad you enjoyed the music,and accept the tip.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Tyke
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:42 AM

Due to the large amount of forgeries I have had to stop accepting £50 notes as tips!

It was my understanding that when you passed the hat round that the Irish the tradition was that people took money out of the hat!


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

A civilised method of tipping, which I always appreciate, is when someone buys a CD at the end of the evening, proffers rather more money than is asked and says "keep the change, great evening". I say "thank you very much". As the great JC Gallow says when offered a drink, in his Louisiana French "Trop bien enlever pour refuser"


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

I have a wonderful collection of buttons


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

My tips as a busker have included a packet of herbal cigarettes(really herbal, not wacky baccy), and a condom(fortunately sealed, not used).More welcome was a glass of sherry and a mince pie, from a shopkeeper in Whitchurch who I always rememeber with gratitude).


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: breezy
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM

dear Capn, you claim

'I have busked many times'

O K what do you mean by 'Many times'?
Please qualify

Please be so kind as to answer the following quetuionare for reasearch purposes

Please circle your response

How many hours did you busk last week Capn B?
0   1-4 5-10 11 -14 15-20 21+

How many hours this year?
0   1-5 6-10 11-15 -16--25 26-50 over 50 over 100 100 300 500


last year? please estimate

in the last 10 years
10
20
37

thats where you get real feed back, out doors.

'Many times' means nothing.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:45 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.[quote Howard Jones]
my whole point.

I'm a bit confused by this, to be honest. Elsewhere you've written "I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture". From what I understand, where tipping has relevance in America (as with waitressing &c.) it's a case of it being expected.

At the same time, showing alternative forms of appreciation is fairly common already in England - buying the performer a drink and so on.

Is it possibly more a case of you just wanting more tokens of appreciation or something?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

I saw a photo of Robert Belfour, possibly my favourite living bluesman, recently. He had a great tip jar – more like a tip barrel! – in front of him. It was like a beautifully decorated piece of junk: it actually added to his look. Made me think I ought to make myself one.

But, yeah,if you're playing a free entry gig and you're not getting paid, then why not pass round a hat? I can't think of any reason why an audience member could possibly object.. Increasingly I'm thinking that in this day and age it's almost a musician's duty to remind the audience in subtle or not so subtle ways that performing does actually [i]cost[/i] (time, effort, money).


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:11 AM

Breezy,in the last twenty years,about 30000 hours.
In Ireland,tipping is not expected,for musicians, when it happens its appreciated

Is it possibly more a case of you just wanting more tokens of appreciation or something?[quote]
no, its a question of cultures merging,should I refuse and say,youcant give me money[because we English think its not culturally acceptable] but you can buy me a drink].
then I have to be careful of the amount of drink, coffee or alcohol,I take in case it adversely affects my performance.
somebody, further up the thread made a very good point,about it giving the folkclub organiser achance to pay the guest less[but that only applies to enforced tipping.
if the performer has signed a contract for a fee,it is irrelevant if some well meaning person gives the performer a VOLUNTARY present.
the best busking present I was given was abook of sea shanties.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

It's possible that the practice of the 'tip jar' is regional in the United States. I have no objection either way, nor do I feel demeaned when I'm tipped. As I said, there's never any obligation to the audience, unlike the tip you're supposed to leave for service in a restaurant or bar.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "no, its a question of cultures merging,should I refuse and say,youcant give me money[because we English think its not culturally acceptable] but you can buy me a drink].
then I have to be careful of the amount of drink, coffee or alcohol,I take in case it adversely affects my performance".

It's not really about 'cultures merging' though. The issue/relevancy of tipping in America is born out of a particular reasoning that doesn't really exist in this country. Yes, I think everyone wants to rewarded/renumerated more for what they do for a living, but the tipping thing in America is there to offset something else entirely. It seems as if you want the tipping side, but probably not the reason why tipping is actually seen as a necessity for some people.


"if the performer has signed a contract for a fee,it is irrelevant if some well meaning person gives the performer a VOLUNTARY present.
the best busking present I was given was abook of sea shanties".

The more I read this, the more your thinking just seems to be born out of a need for some kind of token of appreciation, to be honest.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

Last year, I had to get the people who put the kitchen, in becuase the the ink and taps were faulty. They replaced both with new work surfaces. They were contracted by the manufacturer. They were nice people, and they got on with the job and did it well. So I gave then a tenner to get themselves a drink.
Tne next day I picked up a document on the work surface and underneath was a bit of paper and a ten pound note. On the bit of paper was a note which said "Thanks for the tip, but we are not allowed to accept tips"

I think that bucks the system.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

(From the other side of the pond). There seems to be some misunderstanding of tipping "in America". The tipping of wait staff, taxi drivers, bellboys, paperboys at Christmas, is virtually obligatory. It's understood to be part of the cost of their service. Rightly or wrongly, goodly or badly, it's just the way it is, and it's not going to change soon. And yes, there are those who out of ignorance or in the name of some lofty principle or out just plain cussedness do not tip, or do not tip to the usual amount.

The tipping of musicians is understood to be an entirely different matter. In my experience, it's rarely done out of a sense of obligation; it's often done out of a sense of exuberant appreciation for the joy, excitement or other manner of heightened emotion that the musician has evoked (sometimes by performing a requested song). And it's also done to encourage a specific performer (or group of) to keep doing what they're doing. Obviously a very different outlook from that which produces comments of the "if-you're-not-happy-with-your-income-as-a-musician, quit-and-get-a-real-job, we-don't-give-a-damn" type ...

I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same. At some point in their life or in the night, most performers who are not hopeless alcoholics would prefer the price of a drink in their pocket to the actual drink, it seems to me.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM

I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same. At some point in their life or in the night, most performers who are not hopeless alcoholics would prefer the price of a drink in their pocket to the actual drink, it seems to me.[quote]
avery well put, logical point.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

Breezy,in the last twenty years,about 30000 hours
Blimey, that's more than four hours a day, 365 days a year. I'm amazed you have the time to play at folk clubs as well!
Here's another tip - leave Bragging to Billy.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

meself wrote: "I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same".

I don't, to be honest. As this refers to 'this side of the pond', I think, again, it's about cultural differences.

There maybe even an element of national stereotyping involved here too. Whilst the joke/stereotype referring to the Scots is they're tight-fisted swines who don't like spending money, there maybe some truth to the idea that the English find the issue of money either embarrassing - or even 'vulgar' - in some weird way. Hence being more than happy to buy a drink in appreciation but finding giving the equivalent in 'cold hard cash' a little unsettling.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

Yes, I noticed that the word "embarrassed" has come up several times in the thread ...

I can see that treating to drinks is an easy act of comaraderie with a generally understood etiquette, while tipping, particularly where it is not a tradition, carries certain social risks. Still, if an entertainer is going over well with an appreciative crowd, at some point you may not be doing that person (or their spouse!) any favour by putting another drink into their hand ...

By the way, I'm not trying to take a position on the issue, never having been in an English folk club; just trying to make a couple of points that may be salient ...


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:25 PM

Dick - in situations where the audience is buying you more drinks than you want to consume, I suggest you have an arrangement with the landlord/bar staff to just take the money for your 'next drink' and give it to you at the end of the night, like a reverse tab. Most decent landlords are happy to do that.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

meself wrote: "Still, if an entertainer is going over well with an appreciative crowd, at some point you may not be doing that person (or their spouse!) any favour by putting another drink into their hand ..."

Oh no, I agree with you there. As someone who's gone through phases of not drinking at all and has performed in a (non-folk) capacity, I've often grimaced at the thought of being offered yet another pint of coke or glass of orange, even though the 'thought' was genuinely appreciated. However, I always accepted that this was 'the nature of the beast'.

Although I must admit I was quite unusual with the people I played with; I don't I ever saw them refuse a drink. If they couldn't drink it there and then for whatever reason, they'd ask the barman could they have an un-opened can or bottle to take with them. I'm talking heavy drinkers and a couple of genuine alcoholics here though. :(


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

My observation in New Orleans is that a tip jar or basket is commonly used only where admission is free, regardless of whether the performers are being paid or not. If they are getting paid, it's not much ~ usually a modest percentage of the "take" at the bar.

I understand that customs differ in different countries, but I'm a bit dumbfoudned at reading of someone who is perfectly willing to buy CDs adding a "keep the change" gratuity, but not to simply give a tip. I, for one, could not afford to drop $12-15 for a CD, plus another couple of extra bucks, at every performance I attend. Tossing a dollar or two or more into the jar is more affordable for me, and all-profit/no-overhead for the recipient.

One thing upon which I wholeheartedly agree with the UK contingent: I resent the ubiquitous tip jar at the coffeeshop counter, where you wait on line and receive only the most perfunctory service.

I remember when the general rule in the US was to tip for table service at any restaurant ~ including the most informal eateries, the local diner or soda-fountain which provided counter seating plus booths or tables ~ but never to tip at the counter. And that was in a situation where you actually got service and attention at the counter, before during and after eating or drinking. Such service was considered less than tip-worthy, I suppose, only insofar as the server did not need to walk across the floor to address your needs.

In today's tip-for-everything environment, I have no problem leaving a tip for traditonal counter service, where I take a seat, am offered a beverage and menu immediately, then have my order taken, then delivered, then the check, etc. But to be quickly handed a paper cup of overpriced coffee after standing on queue? Yeah, I'll usually conform and give 'em a tip, a very modest one, but I don't like it...


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 AM

Re. tipping cash v buying a drink (UK)

I have played pubs as a semi-professional where people who worked under me in my day job were present.
They would come to talk in the interval & offer to buy a drink 'cos they liked a particular song or request.
I would accept thankfully.
Whereas if they offered money, I would be embarrassed by the fact that both me and they knew that I was earning more than them in our day jobs.
I have played in restaurants where patrons bought me 'drinks' & the barman put the cash aside for me.
I have also performed floor-spots when a few listeners have said they enjoyed me more than the guest. Who should they tip?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Personaly, if it were a 'pay to enter' club or if I was getting a fee, I would refuse a tip.
If it were a free entry venue I would happily consider a tip (shared if in a session) preferably liquid.
If I were busking, then I would think that is definately a cash activity.
On a lighter note, I and some Shanty singing friends decided to do an impromptue Carol singing session in a pub, in Derby UK, during the pre-Christmas festivities. A gentleman who had imbibed well, requested that we sing the Irish Rover, we refused on aesthetic grounds. Then he placed a large container of beer on our table and, unsurprisingly, we sang the Irish Rover...
"And it's no nay never, no nay never no more..."


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

If it's an unpaid performance then by all means there should be a collection. One club I used to play at was free admission, but everyone would be expected to put (at least) the cost of a pint in the pot, and the bar takings would top it up to a round figure. Often that translated into more for the performer than they'd have got if everyone had had to pay £2 to get in.

If a performer's being paid, then soliciting tips suggests that something's wrong with the fee, the admission price or the promotion.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM

Then he placed a large container of beer on our table and, unsurprisingly, we sang the Irish Rover...

Les of Chorlton's version might have come in handy (or might not, depending what kind of imbiber your benefactor was):

And it's no nay never, no nay never no more,
Will I sing the Wild Rover...


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:25 AM

GUEST,Johnny Sunshine wrote: "If it's an unpaid performance then by all means there should be a collection. One club I used to play at was free admission, but everyone would be expected to put (at least) the cost of a pint in the pot, and the bar takings would top it up to a round figure. Often that translated into more for the performer than they'd have got if everyone had had to pay £2 to get in".

That's the way I see it. I don't expect performers to play for nothing, particularly if they've travelled and have costs to recoup. In those kinds of scenarios, I wouldn't begrudge a putting money in a pint pot at all - I've done it.

It's not a practice that I'd like to see as being the 'norm' though. The idea that a performer could earn more through doing that than through proper payment might be too tempting for promoters and the like. On the non-folk circuit, payment through giving performers tickets to sell seems to abused in a similar way by some promoters.

"If a performer's being paid, then soliciting tips suggests that something's wrong with the fee, the admission price or the promotion."

I agree completely.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

Just let's clarify one thing: the Wild Rover and the Irish Rover are completely different songs. You might not wish to sing either of them at sessions, but they're totally different songs.

Marje


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles.[original post]
UNSOLICITED,unsolicited,unsolicited.cant you read.
now a performer does a good evening,an American Tourist,who is used to tipping,pays his entrance fee,and decides at the end of the evening to give an extra[not abunch of fives].
what does the performer do,refuse the tip,explain that its not the done thing and upset the tourist,or accept it.
it is a question of two different cultural approaches.
English people seenm to be embarassed about money ,but not buying drinks[it doesnt seem logical]


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

I went to a concert by a prominent east European Gypsy brass band. It was really excellent but the admission was not cheap, so I was quite surprised when one of the band started to come round the theatre seats with the hat. Some people gave money, (they looked slightly under duress) but most, including myself, gave nothing as we has paid handomely to get in.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:03 AM

....On the other hand, we were sitting listening to a really excellent six-piece traditional jazz band playing at an open air cafe in the French Quarter of New Orleans.
By the band was a notice saying We play for tips. They were so good that we stayed and listened all evening and gave something each time the hat came round.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "English people seenm to be embarassed about money ,but not buying drinks[it doesnt seem logical]"

Logical? I think you need to be pitching gigs at Vulcans or the Borg then!

Maybe you need to update your set to include 'Gallant USS Voyager', 'The Ferengi Farmer's Daughter' and 'Coil Away the Trawl Warp Drive'!


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

They're not at all embarrassed about it - if they think they've already paid enough they won't be embarrassed into paying again.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

I think it could be partly due to a sense of community in English culture too. I usually sing & play in the bar, in pub sessions and particularly in the pub next door to my house where I'm a regular drinker.

All the people in the bar when we play music are part of that community and are therefore, within that environment, my friends and social equals. That's very much the nature of an English pub. Them offering me money (and me accepting money from them) in that context is just not acceptable in our culture. It'd be like offering to pay for a birthday present someone has bought you.

They can, as my friends and equals, buy me a drink (and it's perfectly OK for me to refuse, so long as I do it in the right way) but money suggests some form of buyer-seller contract. Where that exists, that's fine but it doesn't here.

I think it's very kind of you, Dick, to offer us this suggestion. The reason it hasn't universally gone down well, though, may be that - depending on the context - it would simply be culturally unacceptable in this part of the world.

We all have our own different ways of doing things and I think it's a good thing we do, so long as we can avoid misunderstandings because people don't or can't understand this.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

Just let's clarify one thing: the Wild Rover and the Irish Rover are completely different songs.

Oops - sorry, Marje. I should of course have written

"And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never, no more,
Will I play the Irish Rover,
No never, no more..."


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: JohnB
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

The converse of the theorem would be "we didn't like you, so we take you out the back and Kick the living shit out of you". I remember a friend of mine playing a local establishment years ago where this happened to the previous weeks act. They were really on their game the night they played there.

Sustenance (in any form) has a very different connotation then money.

IMHO if I liked you I'd buy your CD, JohnB.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

now a performer does a good evening,an American Tourist,who is used to tipping,pays his entrance fee,and decides at the end of the evening to give an extra[not abunch of fives].
what does the performer do,refuse the tip,explain that its not the done thing and upset the tourist,or accept it.


I understood that the Americans referred to had not paid an entry fee, but the price of the drinks was inflated to cover your fee, unbeknown to them. Either way, it would be bad manners to turn down a gratuity from anyone for whom it is culturally normal or anyone simply wishing to extend a compliment in that manner. Turning drinks down (politely) is a different matter as one can always think of a logical excuse not to drink any more - hopefully. Having said that, I sincerely hope that tipping doesn't become any more widespread than it already is in the UK.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

I think that sums up most of the UK attitudes, Smokey.

No one is suggesting that anyone should feel they ought to refuse a tip from a generous American tourist, but most of use would hate to see tips being used to keep wages/fees artificially low, or for tipping to be the only way of ensuring good service or getting a favour done (e.g. playing a tune as a request). The general feeling here seems to be that we do not want tipping to be any more widespread in our culture than it is already, at least in relation to folk music and its practitioners.

Marje


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM

No one is suggesting that anyone should feel they ought to refuse a tip from a generous American tourist, but most of use would hate to see tips being used to keep wages/fees artificially low.[quote]
why should it follow,that because someones is tipped at a club,that organisers would then feel that they could get performers for less,that rather casts organisers in a bad light.
are organisers untrustworthy?,in my experience they are not .

if an artiste agrees a fee with an organiser,it is an agreement that is made,regardless of how many free drinks the artiste is bought,or how many cds he /she sells,or how many tips he might receive .
that is how it works in my experience in the UK .
Whenever I have signed a contract,it has not mentioned cd sales deductions for free drinks ,or deductions for tips,it normally deals with a flat fee.against 80 percent of the door takings whichever is greater,plus accomodation for the night .
most organisers do it because they like to promote music, and they like to organise,bu tnot because they want to exploit the performer,that is one of the strengths of folk clubs being run by amateurs,who are doing it for love.
once the folk club scene becomes run by people who wish to make money,rather than people who dont wish to lose money from it,we could encounter problems,that the festival scene is encountering[the festival in Yorkshire that didnt happen,and which people are still waiting for their money to be returned]
most of these amateur organisers run their clubs with a fair modicum of professionalism.,and are in my experience trustworthy.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

why should it follow,that because someones is tipped at a club,that organisers would then feel that they could get performers for less,that rather casts organisers in a bad light. are organisers untrustworthy?,in my experience they are not .


I don't think it's a question of how trustworthy employers are - more of a natural economic consequence which, at a glance, seems to have happened in other 'tipping areas'. For example, it is widely assumed that waiters' wages are disproportionately low because it is customary to tip them. Personally I think the majority of folk performers' fees are low as it is; I wouldn't like to see them get any lower. I'd hazard a guess that folk music is already the cheapest form of live music there is.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

most organisers do it because they like to promote music, and they like to organise,bu tnot because they want to exploit the performer,that is one of the strengths of folk clubs being run by amateurs,who are doing it for love. once the folk club scene becomes run by people who wish to make money,rather than people who dont wish to lose money from it,we could encounter problems

Why shouldn't the organisers make money? Whilst I admire the efforts of those who do it purely for love, with no thought of profit, I think they are as entitled as the performers to make something out of their efforts. They are interdependent after all.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

Thank's for the positive comments about folk club organisers, Captain. That is how we like to see ourselves.

What worries me about the tipping business is that someone might decide to choose between tipping the performer or buying a raffle ticket. Less revenue for the club to pay for advertising; fewer people at your next booking. Alternatively, make up the shortfall by taking a bigger cut of the door money. If you can guarantee that tipping would bring in more money, all well and good but if it just changes the route by which the same amount of money gets distributed I can see problems.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

My last post was sent before I saw Smokey's previous one.

The answer is that there simply isn't enough money to be made in an average folk club to make that an adequate reason to do it. If it wasn't for the love of it, it simply wouldn't be worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

The answer is that there simply isn't enough money to be made in an average folk club to make that an adequate reason to do it. If it wasn't for the love of it, it simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

I appreciate that is, more often than not, the case.
I do think though, that it's better to aim for a profit and settle for breaking even than to aim to break even and end up with a loss.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Smokey

I do think though, that it's better to aim for a profit and settle for breaking even than to aim to break even and end up with a loss.

Obviously, but that's a profit to the club to promote more folk music, not to line the organisers' pockets.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

exactly,Snail .most folkclub organisers are trustworthy[Ispeak from 33 years experience],so I believe Marjes arguments,[although they are probaly not meant by her in this way]cast folk club organisers in an unfair light.
I dont believe that what Marje says might happen would happen,however what Snail says is a possibility ,alright .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

Absolutely - it ensures the survival of the club to some degree, and that benefits all concerned.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:58 PM

There is a story about a dismissed employee, years ago. He sued. Eventually the case reached the House of Lords (I suppose he was on legal aid). He was actually sitting in the public gallery when the speeches were delivered.

Now in English labour law one of the key distinctions is between an employee and a self-employed person. The former are termed "servants" and the latter "contractors".

So speech the first starrts , and gets to the bit about "the action of this servant" - and up pops Fred in the public gallery and yells "I'm nobody's f****ng servant".

That's the point. You don't insult somebody by saying or implying that they are a servant.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:20 PM

Offense has to be both taken and given to be anything more than an unfortunate misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:09 AM

I didn't mean to suggest that folk club organisers were untrustworthy in any way. I just think that if it became the norm for audience members to give personal tips to the performer, this would eventually get taken into consideration when negotiating fees, and could result in fees being lower than they might otherwise be.

Lower fees in these circumstances wouldn't necessarily even mean that there was more money left in the pot for the club. People might be less inclined to buy raffle tickets, or could even be reluctant to pay a realistic door-fee if they felt there was an expectation of tipping later on in the evening. I can't see that any good could come of it - it would just create uncertainty and confusion (as this discussion has already shown).

Marje


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Marje

As an organiser, I would never bring in tipping, and I doubt any other organiser would.

Yes we organisers do it for love, and normally it costs us money, becuase we don't charge for our time, or we use our car to get posters etc out and about, without ever thinking of charging for it, and paper and printing costs but we don't charge. We go and see artiststo see if we want to book them, at our own cost. A lot of us don't even have a job.

So Dick, you get a fee, B & B, food when you arrive, drinks and you sell Cd's. What are you whinging at!

I say no tips.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

villan,nobody is whingeing or whinging .
so stop being impolite
What I have done is started a discussion,this does not mean that I   think I am not getting paid enough.
what I have said is this:if someone from a different culture[america]tips me[either with a drink or money] in a folk club,I would not refuse it .I accept the tip not because I do not think Iam getting paid enough ,but because it would be bad manners and churlish to refuse their appreciation.
I then asked what other people opinions were.
what has this got to do with whingeing,this is supposed to be a discussion forum, is it not possible to discuss a topic without people being rude.
Villan you are ...... rude


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

Apologies Dick, but sometimes as an organiser I soemtimes get a bit fed up with this sort of thing.
However you are right.
Should you accept a tip if somebody voluntarily offers you it. Yes I guess so - it depends on your own conscience.
Should people be forced to give a tip - definately not.
Les


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

Telling someone to stop whinging is not rude it is an opinion had you been caleed a *Beep beep beeep whinger" now that would have been rude.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

Cap'n
Your original post leads the thread and what you actually said was that you would like this custom to be adopted over here!
Nothing about it being bad manners to refuse etc.

As I have already stated - in the past I have received extra payment, drinks etc. all gratefully received but moreso because they are unexpected.
If it became the 'norm' then one would be aggrieved when it wasn't forthcoming! As in the advice above - dont complain/argue about tips until AFTER you receive your food in a restaurant :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

I rarely perform at Folk Clubs and my next is in Lewes on the 21st March.
When I last performed there it was for a percentage of the take,I was happy to do it for nothing.There was not a large audience, but we had a good evening.When the organiser settled up he said that one of the audience had said that he and his wife had enjoyed their evening so much that he had left me a tip.Actually half of what I received for the evening.I was not offended ,far from it,it gave me great encouragement.A simple thank you for a wonderful evening would have been sufficient.I am not a professional musician however I do not do evenings to put food on my table,I do it for other peoples and my enjoyment.
I have never even considered tipping an artist for a lovely evening,I pay admission even if I am performing and buy a large number of raffle tickets to help the club,but the tip I received was a personal thing and I shall always remember the thought from the person who gave it.
Al


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles
my original post ,Ihave since clarified my position .
why should my appreciation be diminshed because it occurred regularly,my appreciation is not diminished when I am playing IN irish pubs and I receive a tip.I never expect anything apart from the fee I agreed.
it is the same with cd sales,just because I sell 5 one night,I dont feel aggreived when I dont sell any,That is the way the cookie crumbles.
Megan L .If you have anything of any relevance or consequence to say,please say it,if all you can do is call me a whinger,then let those people who wish to discuss the topic in an amicable way do so .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

"Telling someone to stop whinging is not rude it is an opinion ... "

Telling someone to stop doing something is not an opinion - it is the issuing of an order, otherwise an imperative statement. If sarcastic or condescending, as in this instance, it certainly has the capacity to be rude. Which is why the person doing the telling expressed apologies shortly thereafter.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

It would appear that it is only a discussion if we agree with certain people well tough most people don't agree


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Listen. Leave Megan alone. She is correct, I was not flaming or anything like that and I certainly was not being rude as Dick suggests. I was making a statement, but like all things in the written format, it can so easily be taken the wrong way.
I apologised as my comments were not meant to start a flaming situation.

All threads are open for comment, wether soembody likes or doesn't like what is being said. What is important is not to deliberately go out to flame somebody. We already have a few like that on here.

The comment was mean't to be more like I was saying it to my daughter, but not in a nasty way, just firing from the hip.:-)

So please keep it cool.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

Dick, I hope you don't mind if I send your thread on a term. (It still fits the title though...)

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club organizers--that takes dedication and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss...

How do *you* thank organizers?


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:04 PM

I knew a fellow in New York years ago who would do requests (he played in a piano bar). Anyway, if ya wanted to hear a song ya sent a note to him with the song title, dedication, etc. One evening he received a note asking for a song. He stood and looked around the piano then the floor. He said aloud, "Who requested "#######"?" A fellow put his hand up. The musician said, "You forgot the PS."


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:27 PM

"Listen. Leave Megan alone."

Oh, come on. Megan seems well able, nay, eager, to stick up for herself.

As for what's rude and what isn't - I thought the statement in question was rude - and, incredible as it may be, that's got nothing to do with who I agree or do not agree with. As I've already stated, I do not have a position on this issue. Anyway, the Captain also thought the statement was rude. The Villan apologized - and then in effect withdrew his apology -

Okay, we've all seen how these threads with the words "English" and "folk" in the title can go - I'm afraid I'll have to leave you to it; got work to do - good luck ...


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

I repeat, discussions can be had in a friendly and amicable fashion,people should be able to have differences of opinions,without flaming or rudeness.
I have no problems,with anyone on this thread,who has a different opinion to myself,but who presents their argument,in a rational, amicable way [Marje] [HowardJones][RichardBridge]and the majority of posters many of whom disagree with me ,lets keep it friendly.
and your apology is accepted, Villan .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:10 PM

Dick, at the start of this thread you said, by way of explanation:

"I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves."

I doubt many would disagree with that, but isn't that already the case in the UK? No-one is actually discouraged from giving tips to performers, they just don't usually do it. Most of the reasons for that have already been clarified. As I see it, no-one is disagreeing with you, but at the same time a system where tipping becomes the normal custom is justifiably unpopular with both organisers and audience, and not in their best interests or, ultimately, the performers' themselves, consequently the 'folk scene' in general. Also, English folk clubs have precious little in common with Irish pubs - different kettle of fish altogether.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles.
that is what I said .
most of the opinions on this thread have been against it, thats ok by me ,other people feel differently,and dont like the idea .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Dick, I hope you don't mind if I send your thread on a tour. (It still fits the title though...)

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club *organizers*--their work takes dedication, skill and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss, and without the organizer...nothing!...

How do *you* thank organizers? Buy a drink? tip the organizer???


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Sorry if I misled you Dick, I was referring to this post:

From: Captain Birdseye
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I never play a paid gig for nowt.

If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.[quote aston villa supporter]
that is what I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves.
most professional folk singers earn less than catering staff,so it is perfectly logical.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:56 AM

why should my appreciation be diminshed because it occurred regularly,my appreciation is not diminished when I am playing IN irish pubs and I receive a tip.I never expect anything apart from the fee I agreed. it is the same with cd sales,just because I sell 5 one night,I dont feel aggreived when I dont sell any,That is the way the cookie crumbles.
You may be above such things but most aren't.
If tipping became the norm then it becomes 'expected'. If your expectations are not met you feel aggrieved. The example I gave of waiters is a well-known one.
At the moment it is not 'the norm' so it is heartening when it happens!
No-one on this thread is saying it should be banned - just that it should not become 'the norm'.


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Subject: RE: don't the organizers deserve reognition?
From: peregrina
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:09 AM

Since the thread is turning into a mobius strip with nothing new to add about Dick's take on tips, and repeats of the original post, I'm trying to turn it in a NEW direction--to recognize the organizers--without whom no music.

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club *organizers*--their work takes dedication, skill and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss, and without the organizer...nothing!...

How do *you* thank organizers? Buy a drink? tip the organizer???


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM

>>on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves<<

LOL And id they haven't enjoyed themselves, can they ask the entrance fee back off the performer.

Nope I guess not.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:07 AM

peregrina ,by all means, send the thread on a tour.
I would have no problem buying the Villan a drink if he booked me at his club as long as buying him a drink didnt become the norm,I wouldnt want the Villan to have a drink problem,or a coca cola problem .
mind you being an Aston Villa supporter ,must have been problematical in the past.
organisers get thanked in different ways,Ted and Ivy Poole,who ran the Swindon Folk Club for 50 years,received an EFDSS GOLD BADGE .
Just for the record I too have organised folk clubs,cant remember anyone thanking me or buying me a drink ,but I didnt expect it,my pleasure was to see Martin Carthy and DaveSwarbrick,Ewan Maccoll and Peggy Seeger,Nic Jones,Tony Rose and many more,just down the road.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

I would appreciate some thanks and I don't think I'd turn down a drink but if I was offered a cash tip, I'd probably put it in with the lottery money to go to club funds.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM

Sorry, full up Dick until 2011. You wouldn't need to buy a drink even if I booked you. If you offered to buy me a drink, I know I would just say "I am fine thanks".

Organisers don't expect anything. Just the fact that you enjoy coming along and supporting live music is enough.


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:49 AM

Sorry, full up Dick until 2011
How much did you drink? :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:05 AM

LOL hic hic


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

Villan,20 11,thats just gone ten past eight .
on a serious note,in these economic times your club must be fairly heavily committed, financially,hope you dont lose a lot of money.
I have seen it happen many times before .
[I would have no problem buying the Villan a drink if he booked me at his club as long as buying him a drink didnt become the norm,I wouldnt want the Villan to have a drink problem,or a coca cola problem ] quote.,this was supposed to be a joke.
Playing Faldingworth ,is not high on my priorities,[not really my sort of club ]so ,unlike others I can speak my mind .


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:31 AM

A very good point Dick.

I am very aware of the economic downturn, and am watching the audience levels very closely.
At the moment, we are very stable and getting audiences between 70/90 for each event. So far any evidence of dwindling audience isn't apparent.
We have a rainy day pot, that would help us to survive quite a few events without running into problems.
We can survive on 50 paying public nicely, but the knock on effect would be the artist would suffer becuase the 80% concept would not be there, just the base guarantee.
I know what you are saying Dick, it doesn't take much for things to change and its very important to be aware of whats happening and to be able to adjust accordingly. I am very glad I have a good management accounting background. It helps a lot in making decisions.

I am waiting to see what happens if there is a dramatic downturn in audiences becuase of the economic climate. I think the artist will feel the first effect as organsiers won't be able to apply the 80%. The likely effect is that artists may start to up their guarantee fee.

It is also very important to try and provide artists that in general would be enjoyed by your audience. Can't always get it right.

The fact that we have a bar and raffle helps to reduce any possible losses.

I think there is a positive side to it. Invariably when things aren't going well, getting out and being entertained does a lot of good against depression etc.

We have been running now for about 8 years and some people said it would not survive, but it has so far.

Les


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

>>this was supposed to be a joke.
<<

I knew that Dick :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

What we need is more American tourists visiting UK folk clubs :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

Especially if they live next door to Alice :-)


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Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

Who :-)

Actually I think that's what I went down with at Christmas..


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