giving money tips at english folk clubs

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:13 PM

Who :-)

Actually I think that's what I went down with at Christmas..

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

Especially if they live next door to Alice :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

What we need is more American tourists visiting UK folk clubs :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:34 AM

>>this was supposed to be a joke.
<<

I knew that Dick :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:31 AM

A very good point Dick.

I am very aware of the economic downturn, and am watching the audience levels very closely.
At the moment, we are very stable and getting audiences between 70/90 for each event. So far any evidence of dwindling audience isn't apparent.
We have a rainy day pot, that would help us to survive quite a few events without running into problems.
We can survive on 50 paying public nicely, but the knock on effect would be the artist would suffer becuase the 80% concept would not be there, just the base guarantee.
I know what you are saying Dick, it doesn't take much for things to change and its very important to be aware of whats happening and to be able to adjust accordingly. I am very glad I have a good management accounting background. It helps a lot in making decisions.

I am waiting to see what happens if there is a dramatic downturn in audiences becuase of the economic climate. I think the artist will feel the first effect as organsiers won't be able to apply the 80%. The likely effect is that artists may start to up their guarantee fee.

It is also very important to try and provide artists that in general would be enjoyed by your audience. Can't always get it right.

The fact that we have a bar and raffle helps to reduce any possible losses.

I think there is a positive side to it. Invariably when things aren't going well, getting out and being entertained does a lot of good against depression etc.

We have been running now for about 8 years and some people said it would not survive, but it has so far.

Les

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

Villan,20 11,thats just gone ten past eight .
on a serious note,in these economic times your club must be fairly heavily committed, financially,hope you dont lose a lot of money.
I have seen it happen many times before .
[I would have no problem buying the Villan a drink if he booked me at his club as long as buying him a drink didnt become the norm,I wouldnt want the Villan to have a drink problem,or a coca cola problem ] quote.,this was supposed to be a joke.
Playing Faldingworth ,is not high on my priorities,[not really my sort of club ]so ,unlike others I can speak my mind .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:05 AM

LOL hic hic

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:49 AM

Sorry, full up Dick until 2011
How much did you drink? :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM

Sorry, full up Dick until 2011. You wouldn't need to buy a drink even if I booked you. If you offered to buy me a drink, I know I would just say "I am fine thanks".

Organisers don't expect anything. Just the fact that you enjoy coming along and supporting live music is enough.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

I would appreciate some thanks and I don't think I'd turn down a drink but if I was offered a cash tip, I'd probably put it in with the lottery money to go to club funds.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:07 AM

peregrina ,by all means, send the thread on a tour.
I would have no problem buying the Villan a drink if he booked me at his club as long as buying him a drink didnt become the norm,I wouldnt want the Villan to have a drink problem,or a coca cola problem .
mind you being an Aston Villa supporter ,must have been problematical in the past.
organisers get thanked in different ways,Ted and Ivy Poole,who ran the Swindon Folk Club for 50 years,received an EFDSS GOLD BADGE .
Just for the record I too have organised folk clubs,cant remember anyone thanking me or buying me a drink ,but I didnt expect it,my pleasure was to see Martin Carthy and DaveSwarbrick,Ewan Maccoll and Peggy Seeger,Nic Jones,Tony Rose and many more,just down the road.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM

>>on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves<<

LOL And id they haven't enjoyed themselves, can they ask the entrance fee back off the performer.

Nope I guess not.

Subject: RE: don't the organizers deserve reognition?
From: peregrina
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:09 AM

Since the thread is turning into a mobius strip with nothing new to add about Dick's take on tips, and repeats of the original post, I'm trying to turn it in a NEW direction--to recognize the organizers--without whom no music.

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club *organizers*--their work takes dedication, skill and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss, and without the organizer...nothing!...

How do *you* thank organizers? Buy a drink? tip the organizer???

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:56 AM

why should my appreciation be diminshed because it occurred regularly,my appreciation is not diminished when I am playing IN irish pubs and I receive a tip.I never expect anything apart from the fee I agreed. it is the same with cd sales,just because I sell 5 one night,I dont feel aggreived when I dont sell any,That is the way the cookie crumbles.
You may be above such things but most aren't.
If tipping became the norm then it becomes 'expected'. If your expectations are not met you feel aggrieved. The example I gave of waiters is a well-known one.
At the moment it is not 'the norm' so it is heartening when it happens!
No-one on this thread is saying it should be banned - just that it should not become 'the norm'.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Sorry if I misled you Dick, I was referring to this post:

From: Captain Birdseye
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I never play a paid gig for nowt.

If I go to a restaurant, I only give a tip, if I think the person has really deserved it. So it is my choice.[quote aston villa supporter]
that is what I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves.
most professional folk singers earn less than catering staff,so it is perfectly logical.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

Dick, I hope you don't mind if I send your thread on a tour. (It still fits the title though...)

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club *organizers*--their work takes dedication, skill and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss, and without the organizer...nothing!...

How do *you* thank organizers? Buy a drink? tip the organizer???

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles.
that is what I said .
most of the opinions on this thread have been against it, thats ok by me ,other people feel differently,and dont like the idea .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:10 PM

Dick, at the start of this thread you said, by way of explanation:

"I am suggesting,that on top of my fee,a person should feel free to tip,if they have enjoyed themselves."

I doubt many would disagree with that, but isn't that already the case in the UK? No-one is actually discouraged from giving tips to performers, they just don't usually do it. Most of the reasons for that have already been clarified. As I see it, no-one is disagreeing with you, but at the same time a system where tipping becomes the normal custom is justifiably unpopular with both organisers and audience, and not in their best interests or, ultimately, the performers' themselves, consequently the 'folk scene' in general. Also, English folk clubs have precious little in common with Irish pubs - different kettle of fish altogether.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

I repeat, discussions can be had in a friendly and amicable fashion,people should be able to have differences of opinions,without flaming or rudeness.
I have no problems,with anyone on this thread,who has a different opinion to myself,but who presents their argument,in a rational, amicable way [Marje] [HowardJones][RichardBridge]and the majority of posters many of whom disagree with me ,lets keep it friendly.
and your apology is accepted, Villan .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:27 PM

"Listen. Leave Megan alone."

Oh, come on. Megan seems well able, nay, eager, to stick up for herself.

As for what's rude and what isn't - I thought the statement in question was rude - and, incredible as it may be, that's got nothing to do with who I agree or do not agree with. As I've already stated, I do not have a position on this issue. Anyway, the Captain also thought the statement was rude. The Villan apologized - and then in effect withdrew his apology -

Okay, we've all seen how these threads with the words "English" and "folk" in the title can go - I'm afraid I'll have to leave you to it; got work to do - good luck ...

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:04 PM

I knew a fellow in New York years ago who would do requests (he played in a piano bar). Anyway, if ya wanted to hear a song ya sent a note to him with the song title, dedication, etc. One evening he received a note asking for a song. He stood and looked around the piano then the floor. He said aloud, "Who requested "#######"?" A fellow put his hand up. The musician said, "You forgot the PS."

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

Dick, I hope you don't mind if I send your thread on a term. (It still fits the title though...)

I propose tips/ thanks/ drinks for the club organizers--that takes dedication and commitment too, and the organizer, unlike the musician is doing it entirely voluntarily, maybe at loss...

How do *you* thank organizers?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Listen. Leave Megan alone. She is correct, I was not flaming or anything like that and I certainly was not being rude as Dick suggests. I was making a statement, but like all things in the written format, it can so easily be taken the wrong way.
I apologised as my comments were not meant to start a flaming situation.

All threads are open for comment, wether soembody likes or doesn't like what is being said. What is important is not to deliberately go out to flame somebody. We already have a few like that on here.

The comment was mean't to be more like I was saying it to my daughter, but not in a nasty way, just firing from the hip.:-)

So please keep it cool.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

It would appear that it is only a discussion if we agree with certain people well tough most people don't agree

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

"Telling someone to stop whinging is not rude it is an opinion ... "

Telling someone to stop doing something is not an opinion - it is the issuing of an order, otherwise an imperative statement. If sarcastic or condescending, as in this instance, it certainly has the capacity to be rude. Which is why the person doing the telling expressed apologies shortly thereafter.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

Subject: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles
my original post ,Ihave since clarified my position .
why should my appreciation be diminshed because it occurred regularly,my appreciation is not diminished when I am playing IN irish pubs and I receive a tip.I never expect anything apart from the fee I agreed.
it is the same with cd sales,just because I sell 5 one night,I dont feel aggreived when I dont sell any,That is the way the cookie crumbles.
Megan L .If you have anything of any relevance or consequence to say,please say it,if all you can do is call me a whinger,then let those people who wish to discuss the topic in an amicable way do so .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

I rarely perform at Folk Clubs and my next is in Lewes on the 21st March.
When I last performed there it was for a percentage of the take,I was happy to do it for nothing.There was not a large audience, but we had a good evening.When the organiser settled up he said that one of the audience had said that he and his wife had enjoyed their evening so much that he had left me a tip.Actually half of what I received for the evening.I was not offended ,far from it,it gave me great encouragement.A simple thank you for a wonderful evening would have been sufficient.I am not a professional musician however I do not do evenings to put food on my table,I do it for other peoples and my enjoyment.
I have never even considered tipping an artist for a lovely evening,I pay admission even if I am performing and buy a large number of raffle tickets to help the club,but the tip I received was a personal thing and I shall always remember the thought from the person who gave it.
Al

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

Cap'n
Your original post leads the thread and what you actually said was that you would like this custom to be adopted over here!
Nothing about it being bad manners to refuse etc.

As I have already stated - in the past I have received extra payment, drinks etc. all gratefully received but moreso because they are unexpected.
If it became the 'norm' then one would be aggrieved when it wasn't forthcoming! As in the advice above - dont complain/argue about tips until AFTER you receive your food in a restaurant :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

Telling someone to stop whinging is not rude it is an opinion had you been caleed a *Beep beep beeep whinger" now that would have been rude.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

Apologies Dick, but sometimes as an organiser I soemtimes get a bit fed up with this sort of thing.
However you are right.
Should you accept a tip if somebody voluntarily offers you it. Yes I guess so - it depends on your own conscience.
Should people be forced to give a tip - definately not.
Les

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

villan,nobody is whingeing or whinging .
so stop being impolite
What I have done is started a discussion,this does not mean that I   think I am not getting paid enough.
what I have said is this:if someone from a different culture[america]tips me[either with a drink or money] in a folk club,I would not refuse it .I accept the tip not because I do not think Iam getting paid enough ,but because it would be bad manners and churlish to refuse their appreciation.
I then asked what other people opinions were.
what has this got to do with whingeing,this is supposed to be a discussion forum, is it not possible to discuss a topic without people being rude.
Villan you are ...... rude

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Marje

As an organiser, I would never bring in tipping, and I doubt any other organiser would.

Yes we organisers do it for love, and normally it costs us money, becuase we don't charge for our time, or we use our car to get posters etc out and about, without ever thinking of charging for it, and paper and printing costs but we don't charge. We go and see artiststo see if we want to book them, at our own cost. A lot of us don't even have a job.

So Dick, you get a fee, B & B, food when you arrive, drinks and you sell Cd's. What are you whinging at!

I say no tips.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:09 AM

I didn't mean to suggest that folk club organisers were untrustworthy in any way. I just think that if it became the norm for audience members to give personal tips to the performer, this would eventually get taken into consideration when negotiating fees, and could result in fees being lower than they might otherwise be.

Lower fees in these circumstances wouldn't necessarily even mean that there was more money left in the pot for the club. People might be less inclined to buy raffle tickets, or could even be reluctant to pay a realistic door-fee if they felt there was an expectation of tipping later on in the evening. I can't see that any good could come of it - it would just create uncertainty and confusion (as this discussion has already shown).

Marje

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:20 PM

Offense has to be both taken and given to be anything more than an unfortunate misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:58 PM

There is a story about a dismissed employee, years ago. He sued. Eventually the case reached the House of Lords (I suppose he was on legal aid). He was actually sitting in the public gallery when the speeches were delivered.

Now in English labour law one of the key distinctions is between an employee and a self-employed person. The former are termed "servants" and the latter "contractors".

So speech the first starrts , and gets to the bit about "the action of this servant" - and up pops Fred in the public gallery and yells "I'm nobody's f****ng servant".

That's the point. You don't insult somebody by saying or implying that they are a servant.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

Absolutely - it ensures the survival of the club to some degree, and that benefits all concerned.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

exactly,Snail .most folkclub organisers are trustworthy[Ispeak from 33 years experience],so I believe Marjes arguments,[although they are probaly not meant by her in this way]cast folk club organisers in an unfair light.
I dont believe that what Marje says might happen would happen,however what Snail says is a possibility ,alright .

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:55 PM

Smokey

I do think though, that it's better to aim for a profit and settle for breaking even than to aim to break even and end up with a loss.

Obviously, but that's a profit to the club to promote more folk music, not to line the organisers' pockets.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

The answer is that there simply isn't enough money to be made in an average folk club to make that an adequate reason to do it. If it wasn't for the love of it, it simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

I appreciate that is, more often than not, the case.
I do think though, that it's better to aim for a profit and settle for breaking even than to aim to break even and end up with a loss.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

My last post was sent before I saw Smokey's previous one.

The answer is that there simply isn't enough money to be made in an average folk club to make that an adequate reason to do it. If it wasn't for the love of it, it simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

Thank's for the positive comments about folk club organisers, Captain. That is how we like to see ourselves.

What worries me about the tipping business is that someone might decide to choose between tipping the performer or buying a raffle ticket. Less revenue for the club to pay for advertising; fewer people at your next booking. Alternatively, make up the shortfall by taking a bigger cut of the door money. If you can guarantee that tipping would bring in more money, all well and good but if it just changes the route by which the same amount of money gets distributed I can see problems.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

most organisers do it because they like to promote music, and they like to organise,bu tnot because they want to exploit the performer,that is one of the strengths of folk clubs being run by amateurs,who are doing it for love. once the folk club scene becomes run by people who wish to make money,rather than people who dont wish to lose money from it,we could encounter problems

Why shouldn't the organisers make money? Whilst I admire the efforts of those who do it purely for love, with no thought of profit, I think they are as entitled as the performers to make something out of their efforts. They are interdependent after all.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

why should it follow,that because someones is tipped at a club,that organisers would then feel that they could get performers for less,that rather casts organisers in a bad light. are organisers untrustworthy?,in my experience they are not .


I don't think it's a question of how trustworthy employers are - more of a natural economic consequence which, at a glance, seems to have happened in other 'tipping areas'. For example, it is widely assumed that waiters' wages are disproportionately low because it is customary to tip them. Personally I think the majority of folk performers' fees are low as it is; I wouldn't like to see them get any lower. I'd hazard a guess that folk music is already the cheapest form of live music there is.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM

No one is suggesting that anyone should feel they ought to refuse a tip from a generous American tourist, but most of use would hate to see tips being used to keep wages/fees artificially low.[quote]
why should it follow,that because someones is tipped at a club,that organisers would then feel that they could get performers for less,that rather casts organisers in a bad light.
are organisers untrustworthy?,in my experience they are not .

if an artiste agrees a fee with an organiser,it is an agreement that is made,regardless of how many free drinks the artiste is bought,or how many cds he /she sells,or how many tips he might receive .
that is how it works in my experience in the UK .
Whenever I have signed a contract,it has not mentioned cd sales deductions for free drinks ,or deductions for tips,it normally deals with a flat fee.against 80 percent of the door takings whichever is greater,plus accomodation for the night .
most organisers do it because they like to promote music, and they like to organise,bu tnot because they want to exploit the performer,that is one of the strengths of folk clubs being run by amateurs,who are doing it for love.
once the folk club scene becomes run by people who wish to make money,rather than people who dont wish to lose money from it,we could encounter problems,that the festival scene is encountering[the festival in Yorkshire that didnt happen,and which people are still waiting for their money to be returned]
most of these amateur organisers run their clubs with a fair modicum of professionalism.,and are in my experience trustworthy.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

I think that sums up most of the UK attitudes, Smokey.

No one is suggesting that anyone should feel they ought to refuse a tip from a generous American tourist, but most of use would hate to see tips being used to keep wages/fees artificially low, or for tipping to be the only way of ensuring good service or getting a favour done (e.g. playing a tune as a request). The general feeling here seems to be that we do not want tipping to be any more widespread in our culture than it is already, at least in relation to folk music and its practitioners.

Marje

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

now a performer does a good evening,an American Tourist,who is used to tipping,pays his entrance fee,and decides at the end of the evening to give an extra[not abunch of fives].
what does the performer do,refuse the tip,explain that its not the done thing and upset the tourist,or accept it.

I understood that the Americans referred to had not paid an entry fee, but the price of the drinks was inflated to cover your fee, unbeknown to them. Either way, it would be bad manners to turn down a gratuity from anyone for whom it is culturally normal or anyone simply wishing to extend a compliment in that manner. Turning drinks down (politely) is a different matter as one can always think of a logical excuse not to drink any more - hopefully. Having said that, I sincerely hope that tipping doesn't become any more widespread than it already is in the UK.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: JohnB
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

The converse of the theorem would be "we didn't like you, so we take you out the back and Kick the living shit out of you". I remember a friend of mine playing a local establishment years ago where this happened to the previous weeks act. They were really on their game the night they played there.

Sustenance (in any form) has a very different connotation then money.

IMHO if I liked you I'd buy your CD, JohnB.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:52 AM

Just let's clarify one thing: the Wild Rover and the Irish Rover are completely different songs.

Oops - sorry, Marje. I should of course have written

"And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never, no more,
Will I play the Irish Rover,
No never, no more..."

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

I think it could be partly due to a sense of community in English culture too. I usually sing & play in the bar, in pub sessions and particularly in the pub next door to my house where I'm a regular drinker.

All the people in the bar when we play music are part of that community and are therefore, within that environment, my friends and social equals. That's very much the nature of an English pub. Them offering me money (and me accepting money from them) in that context is just not acceptable in our culture. It'd be like offering to pay for a birthday present someone has bought you.

They can, as my friends and equals, buy me a drink (and it's perfectly OK for me to refuse, so long as I do it in the right way) but money suggests some form of buyer-seller contract. Where that exists, that's fine but it doesn't here.

I think it's very kind of you, Dick, to offer us this suggestion. The reason it hasn't universally gone down well, though, may be that - depending on the context - it would simply be culturally unacceptable in this part of the world.

We all have our own different ways of doing things and I think it's a good thing we do, so long as we can avoid misunderstandings because people don't or can't understand this.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

They're not at all embarrassed about it - if they think they've already paid enough they won't be embarrassed into paying again.