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A song worth no more than a bar of soap?

George Papavgeris 28 Jan 09 - 09:08 AM
SINSULL 28 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM
George Papavgeris 28 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM
wyrdolafr 28 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 28 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 28 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM
Amos 28 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM
Gurney 28 Jan 09 - 03:05 PM
Leadfingers 28 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM
bankley 28 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM
Peace 29 Jan 09 - 12:59 AM
Bert 29 Jan 09 - 02:02 AM
Bert 29 Jan 09 - 02:03 AM
wyrdolafr 29 Jan 09 - 04:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 29 Jan 09 - 04:52 AM
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Subject: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:08 AM

And that's the UK's Intellectual Property Minister - god help us!
What he said


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

Wouldn't it be more like taking the hotel's logo and using it for your B&B?


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

The minister's remarks are both foolish and inflammatory. He upsets people by talking about arresting teenagers in their bedrooms.

However, the opposition is helping him out by tackling him head-on. What they should do is talk about big enterprises (ISP's) vandalizing smaller ones (composers) by giving the composer's product away. Then the teenagers become what they are - brainless little gits who can be ignored when the real solution is worked out.

By the way, I'm pretty sure we pay for the soap in a hotel whether we use it or not. Some churches in America collect that soap for the homeless.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

And yet... this thread so far attracted less attention than the "Cello scrotum" one. Perhaps the minister IS right after all!


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:31 PM

The real problem isn't that David Lammy has alikened songs to a bar of soap, it's that the music industry treats songs like bars of soap. Music is 'product', 'unit shifting' and 'short term profits'. Record companies and the like aren't about 'art' or 'development', the way they market and sell music might as well be soap or washing powder &c.

I completely agree with his points about arresting teenagers in bedrooms &c. It's a nonsense. None of what the RIAA* and the BPI do is about protecting the performer or the author, it's about protecting industry profits and an outdated business model; a business model that really doesn't work in the favour of the actual artist aside from a very few lucky ones.

Look at the RIAA's attitude toward's royalties generally - last year RIAA wanted to reduce artist royalties, something that people like Apple/iTunes also wanted; the problems regarding SoundExchange and the RIAA sitting on literally millions of unpaid out royalties, the way 'independent' artists (which would include most folk artists) fitted into the likes of their vision of 'internet radio' and so on. When the RIAA sued MP3.com for infringement and got $150 million, none of it went to the authors or performers.

I think the worth (as in a trivial amount like a bar of soap) is based on the insane figures that the RIAA associate with each downloaded song. IIRC, it's something like a standard charge of $750 per song. If RIAA approved worth of a individual song through iTunes is around 99 cents how does that work out as being 'appropriate'? Especially when this money doesn't go back to the artists?

As Lammy's remarks weren't specific about folk music it's probably OK that I bring in Steve Albini's essay The Trouble With Music. It's fifteen years old now, but the problems it details are as pertinent now as they were then and were before the essay was written. Steve Albini is a big rock/alternative producer and performer in his own right. If you don't want to read the whole essay, it's worth scrolling to the end to see the breakdown of record company 'advances'.

*I mention the RIAA a lot as despite it being an American organisation, the companies they represent have international rosters, the business model they try and protect is similarly international and, I think it's fair to say that whilst they already 'inform' how the likes of the BPI works, I think they'd like to extend their 'legal influence' to cover everywhere, not just America.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

Hi George: As we endure the snow and cold of winter, your thread only intensifies my belief that we are pretty much on our own with getting our music directly to the people that will pay for it. If that's the Intellectual Property Minister; it's letter writing time...

These guys can be replaced or have their attitudes adjusted...The digital revolution has forever changed the way music will be distributed and paid for. I think of the situation like being in a huge mushroom cloud, and the dust hasn't settled yet.

What to do? Well you still have CD's, Live Performances, and The Internet. But the pesky Internet is a double edged sword, it gets you out to millions of people, but at the expense of being there with millions of other artists, all pretty much for free. It's like trying to get people to pay for the air they breath.

But if all farmers gave way their crops, everybody would'nt have to pay for groceries. Then who plows the earth, who plants the seeds, who gathers the crops?

Places like MySpace will let you upload songs. But maybe the answer is in giving people a taste, but if they want more, pay for the CD. This, of course, doesn't answer the question
of people who like say, only ONE of your songs, and they want to fill their iPods with 5000 songs they like.

Do I have an answer? No, because if I did, I would be a Billionaire and off in Tahiti with my Mamacita sipping Margueritas on some beach watching the sun go down, and not on Mudcat...

Oh well, back to promoting myself...Like throwing a message in a bottle into the endless sea...Did meet some good folks though, AND, my stuff's being played on the Radio, so I'll take that as being Blessed...bob


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

This one's a bit over the top for Mudcat, but I think you'll find some truth here. CAUTION... The language is a bit rough for this particular interview, but understand the environment it was done in. Don't go out there with your hat in your hand, rather, get in your tank and drive through the front door... I find this inspiring, and my "DO IT YOURSELF" Philosophy finds a home here...
THE MOMO ZONE...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=KsGaKPUZbgw&feature=channel
bob

p.s. I hope this translates for the world of Folk...You need energy. And if the Government gives you a lemon, make lemonade. Just do it...BR


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 02:20 PM

One bar, for a whole song? Surely, it would merit at least four, eight or twelve!


A


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:05 PM

A personal opinion. Youtube and that ilk is just a taster, and will encourage the sale of recordings, and encourage bookings of the artist. Wholesale downloading, again IMO, is theft. Filesharing of large quantities of music is theft.
The problem is, what constitutes 'large!'

That said, I do have some problems with intellectual property, of the type practiced by entrepreneur purveyors of music by 'past' artists. Living/working artists, I consider, are entitled to full control of their efforts. But their heirs, now, I'm in two minds about, and as for entrepreneurial moneygrubbers, there should be a special place for them!

As for the soap, it is the property of the client. Paid for by the client and supplied to the client. The only other claimant would be the hotel staff, who consider it abandoned and a work 'perk.'
A bad analogy on the part of the minister.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Seems to be Par for The Course with our 'New Labour' crew , too many Knee Jerk reaction and a propensity for Foot in Mouth disease .


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: bankley
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

bend over , Mr. Lammy would rather fill your hole with soap than your soul with hope....


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

Seems reasonable enough. After all, soap is extremely useful stuff. And very much associated with song by everyone who has ever sung in the bath.

The point he was making was surely that the soap making industry and the hotel business aren't significantly affected by that kind of theft.

I can't see any way of reversing the change that has come about in the way music circulates. If in time it means that some other way for us all collectively to ensure that musicians and suchlike get what they need to live has to be worked out, that will need to be done.

It should be possible. It's not as if more than a fraction of the money taken by the canned music industry over the years has gone to the people actually making the music, setting aside a pretty small number of exceptions.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 12:59 AM

"It should be possible. It's not as if more than a fraction of the money taken by the canned music industry over the years has gone to the people actually making the music, setting aside a pretty small number of exceptions."

Truer words . . . .


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:02 AM

'For a bar of soap he saw and he washed himself ashore, Hes a marvel he's a mivvy he's a Jim, Jim, Jim'


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:03 AM

Let's all sell our CD's through Camsco.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:21 AM

McGrath of Harlow wrote: "It's not as if more than a fraction of the money taken by the canned music industry over the years has gone to the people actually making the music, setting aside a pretty small number of exceptions".


This is the real issue here rather than people downloading and it started a long time before downloading was possible or even before home taping on cassettes - which, apparently, was also killing the music industry. The recording industry are desperate to blame everyone but themselves for anything that has gone wrong with their business model.

Yet various of independent studies by economists over the years have shown that downloading doesn't have the negative impact on sales that people are lead to believe. Yes, physical sales have gone down over the years but fingers are being pointed in the wrong direction as to why.


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Subject: RE: A song worth no more than a bar of soap?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:52 AM

"bend over , Mr. Lammy would rather fill your hole with soap than your soul with hope...."


There are some words which are so clever they're worth...

THIS! :0)


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