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Folklore: Bright Phoebe/Phoebus-?

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Abdul The Bul Bul 30 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 09 - 05:01 AM
My guru always said 30 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM
Bainbo 30 Jan 09 - 05:05 AM
Abdul The Bul Bul 30 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM
Noreen 30 Jan 09 - 05:26 AM
Noreen 30 Jan 09 - 05:27 AM
GUEST 30 Jan 09 - 05:28 AM
Abdul The Bul Bul 30 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM
Newport Boy 30 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM
Abdul The Bul Bul 30 Jan 09 - 05:49 AM
TenorTwo 30 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM
peregrina 30 Jan 09 - 06:03 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM
Malcolm Douglas 30 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM
Newport Boy 30 Jan 09 - 12:23 PM
High Hopes (inactive) 30 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM
melodeonboy 30 Jan 09 - 01:58 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Jan 09 - 03:45 PM
MartinRyan 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM
Newport Boy 31 Jan 09 - 07:49 AM
Newport Boy 31 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 31 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 31 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM
Newport Boy 31 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM
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Subject: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:55 AM

Just listening to my new cd Oyster Girls and Hovelling Boys and "Bright Phoebe" turned up again.

Can't find who/where/what B P is. Anyone throw any more light on it?

Excellent CD by the way, the subtitle is - Folk Songs from Kent vol 3
Have a look on Pete Castles website.

Al


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:01 AM

Moon I think.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: My guru always said
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:03 AM

I always thought it was Bright Pheobus, but people seem to be saying Phoebe too....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Bainbo
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:05 AM

The moon


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

Thanks Guru, Phoebus is the one. It is quite bright and I remember it used to rise and shine.

Al


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM

Phoebe is identified with the moon, Phoebus with the sun.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:26 AM

Phoebus is the sun.

as in:

One morning fair as Phoebus bright her radiant charms displayed...

Phoebus


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:27 AM

Phoebus was male, actually...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:28 AM

Phoebus

Can't find who/where/what B P is

Didn't look very hard, did you?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

I did know about the Saturninan moon,and I get Phoebe as A moon but an insignificant one really for us here on earth. Not a bright one anyway, not THE moon as we know 'the moon' and it wouldn't inspire folk song as our moon does shirley?

So why is Phoebe identified with the moon?

Al


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM

A related question.

The c1625 broadsheet print of 'To Drive the Cold Winter Away' or ' All Hail to the Days' says To the tune of 'When Phoebus did rest, &C'.

I've tried to find this tune, song or whatever, with no success. There is a classical quote of 'When Phoebus addressed his course to the west...' But that hasn't helped me either.

Any ideas?

Phil


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:49 AM

Hi nameless guest..the thread title is Phoebe. Thats where I looked.

Where I SHOULD have looked is my wishlist of CD's to buy as thats where I have added Bright Phoebus.
All came back to the ageing head with Gurus' polite nudge.

Al


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: TenorTwo
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:52 AM

"Bright Phoeby" is the way I've always rendered it where it is obvious that it is the Sun that is being referred to: "Bright Phoeby awakes ... red rosy cheeks ... sparkling eye" - funny sort of moon. But the moon would be Phoebe - the Greek Titan (i.e pre-Olympus) goddess of the moon.

T2


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: peregrina
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:03 AM

Phoebus:Phoebe::Apollo:Artemis/Diana::Sun:Moon
all from Greek, then Roman mythology (just the adjective phoebus means the bright; phoebe was perhaps originally a titaness, only later associated with, or confused with, the moon and Artemis/Diana)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

The original Phoebe was a daughter of the Titans.

The sun has since ancient times mostly been 'classified' as male, and so the moon, his opposite, is female (Brother Francis of Assissi in his 'Canticle of the Sun' where all things are his brothers and sisters, refers to 'Brother Sun and Sister Moon' although the hymn 'All creatures of our God and King' makes it 'burning sun and silver moon'). I've always felt that the moon is feminine in that its aspect increases to a fullness which appears at about the same interval as menstruation. But that's just my thoughts...

Phoebus is the masculine form of Phoebe, so to say 'bright Phoebe' is actually a tortology.

Phoebe was also the name of the first woman deacon specifically mentioned as such in the Bible...

LTS


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

'When Phoebus did rest' is in Simpson, so there will be an ABC of the tune (and another for 'To Drive the Cold Winter Away') on the late Bruce Olson's website. A link to an archived copy of the site is in 'Quick Links' dropdown menu at the top of this page.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:23 PM

Thanks, Malcolm

The index entry for Simpson gives:

All hayle to the dayes/ ZN67| A pleasant Countrey new Ditty.. To driue the cold Winter away/ Tune: When Phoebus did rest/ P1 186-7 = RB1 84: H. G[osson]. (Chappell mentions another copy in RC) [CB p. 341]

But I can't find any tune for 'Phoebus'. I'd got this far previously - am I looking in the wrong place?

Phil


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

Literally, "the radiant one". In Greek mythology, an epithet of Apollo because of his connection with the sun or as descendant of the Titaness Phoebe (his grandmother). The Romans venerated him as Phoebus Apollo.

The Lamp of Phoebus, the sun.

Bright Phoebus a first class recording by Mike & Lal Waterson


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 01:58 PM

"so to say 'bright Phoebe' is actually a tortology."

Now that's a roundabout way of getting there!

Tortology (study of cakes) > currant bun (rhyming slang for "sun") > sun (Phoebe; bright or otherwise)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:45 PM

I thought Cynthia was the moon. I've always known Phoebus as the sun as it features in a lot of hunting songs etc.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

"One morning as I went a-fowling,
Bright Phoebus adorned the plain"

QED?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

Phil - Simpson gives a rather convoluted introduction to Drive the Cold Winter Away, of which this is an extract:

"The ballad begins "All hayle to the dayes/That merite more praise", and the tune is give as "When Phoebus did rest" (Pepys, Roxburghe, reprinted in RB I, 84). Now a song beginning "When Phoebus addres'd [or had drest] his course to the West" in Wit and Drollery, 1656, and Merry Drollery, 1661, has the refrain "O do not, do not kill me yet, /For I am no prepared to dye". And in the Boertigheden section of J.J.Starter's Friesche Lust-Hof, 1621, sig C4v (Fig 125), is music entitled "O doe not, doe not kil me yet for I am not &c", which may be considered the tune of "When Phoebus did rest". A somewhat different tune, called "Drive the cold winter away", is in all editions of The Dancing Master, 1651-c.1728...."

He (Simpson) gives two tunes, 125 and 126, the first - 125 - being the one he identifies as When Phoebus.. 126 is the tune from The Dancing Master (also in Chappell for Drive...).

Hope this is some help.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:49 AM

Mick - Thanks for the pointers. After a year or more of searching, I now have a tune which is probably "When Phoebus did rest". I'd missed it before, because the ABC of both tunes have the title 'Drive the Cold Winter Away'.

The first tune (125) sounds a little odd to me. It's marked as DDorian, and in the second half there's a mixture of C# and C which grates on my ear. Does anyone else agree? Could it be an error in transcription, or is it just me?

Phil


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to send you on the same search, but I was called to lunch and forgot to post the tune.

X:125
T:B125- Drive the cold winter away
S:(1st/2)
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:6/4
K:Ddorian
d|^cAAA2d|^cAAA2d|^c3/2d/2e(A3/2B/2)c|(d3d2):|d|\
e^ccc2d|e^ccc2d|eccc3/2d/2e|f3a3|\
a2ef2d|a2AA2A|B3/2c/2d^c3/2d/2e|(d3d2)|]

Phil

To play or display ABC tunes, try concertina.net


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

Phil - I've checked the transcription against the book and it's OK. (actually I've only checked it against my own copy of the file, but since that came from Bruce's site originally I assume it's the same as currently online).

Personally, I wouldn't have set the mode as D dorian. The A section is fine as D major, or even D minor (though I think I prefer the major), but with no C natural in sight not D dorian. Only the middle of the B section seems to be dorian, reverting in the penultimate bar to the A section mode. Or you could treat it all as D minor with the 6th B always natural (as in ascending melodic minor - it does only appear twice, both times in an ascending run) and the leading note varying between the C and C#. I don't mind the sound myself!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

(cross-posted with your tune post!)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Bright Phoebe-?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

Thanks again, Mick. Having listened to the tune about a dozen times, I'm beginning to come to terms with it, but I'll continue to sing the other one.

Phil


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