BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:29 PM

It's like calling bald a hair color, I have read recently!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM

I'm really sick of people saying that a lack of belief is, in itself, a belief. Hooey. Insulting. Specious. Wrong. Illogical. Semantically backwards. Dishonest. Pointless. Wrong.

I'm afraid you'll have to come up with something else, like something that actually makes any sense whatsoever.

"A lack of belief in God is a belief in the lack of God". This is even more circular than most religious "logic".

Failure to believe in something for which there is no evidence is pretty easy to understand. Calling a belief is beyond understanding, beyond logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

I didn't mean that Ron shouldn't think about that bit at the end, as I realize upon rereading that I might have seemed to be saying. Also, hey, I got all the html right, whoo hoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM

OK, here you go, Ron. I have precise questions I hope you'll answer precisely and thoughtfully, as I am trying to do here.

To boil this down to the essentials (obviously the nurse topic is long since beaten into the ground), let's go to the dictionary. Atheism: " disbelief in the existence of deity;" "doctrine there is no deity." - Well, gotta agree with the dead horse issue about the nurse, certainly. Also, I agree that "doctrine that there is no deity" would make atheism faith-based. However, "disbelief in the existence of deity" is the better definition, since "a-" means "none" and "-theism" means "belief in deity" - which also happens to be the kind of atheism we've mostly been talking about (we, in this case, being the atheists in question) - is not. It is a conclusion, not a faith. Antitheism, atheistic faith, I'm not sure what I'd call the other.

And what is this disbelief based on? Specious abuse of mathematics to play games with probability doesn't cut it, sorry. Thank you for reading my post. OK, if you're talking about lack of belief in gods, the use of statistical argument is no longer specious, not that it really was in the first place. What there is, first of all, is plenty of hard evidence that anything you might think was accomplished by deity was actually nature, physics, chemistry, biology, botany, or something now known, which had not been understood by the ancients. There is no need for a deity hypothesis, as LaPlace, I think, said. What in the world, literally, do you think requires a god?

It's based on....uh...uh...the belief itself. And nothing else. Since there is no conclusive proof or even solid evidence. You can't prove that there isn't any Flying Spaghetti Monster either. So what? Just because you understand a thing is possible, like the existence of a FSM or deity, doesn't mean that you believe it actually IS. If not, you don't believe in it, even though you understand intellectually that it isn't impossible. *Anything* is possible. But you don't believe in everything, do you?

Yes there is no proof there is a God. Great straw man, congratulations. But there is no proof there is not. Since obviously there can be no proof on a proposition which is by definition unknowable. As anybody who depends on empirical evidence realizes. All scientists or others who depend on empirical evidence know that all they can *have* empirical evidence is the knowable, and the unknowable is the realm of philosophy, not science. That is the very definition of the realms. So, um, that kind of takes care of that, and actually, I am kind of disappointed in the very impossibility of knowing the unknowable being raised as an intelligent, honest argument on this forum, where people tend to think things through. Basically, if you can't form a testable hypothesis, you can't test it, right, we know that. So we don't try to test the untestable. No thinking atheist (first definition or second, I would think) would try to say there is scientific proof of there being no gods. Again, what there is, is scientific proof that *myths,* or supernatural explanations for natural phenomena (e.g., Persephone is why we have winter), are false. Can you think of a hypothesis that would investigate the *non*-existence of deity?

Why do you suppose there are so few atheist scientists?   In contrast to agnostic scientists. Because they realize it's an open question. Actually, most scientist do not believe in deity, and refuse to call themselves atheist because, as I've said, there's a hoodoo on the term. It isn't fair to call people who don't believe in gods Agnostic just because they won't state that they believe there aren't any. Agnostics aren't sure one way or the other. People who don't believe in deity are atheists by the definition under discussion, even if they namby pamby out and call themselves agnostic. I am not as well-versed in philosophy as science, but we've got Dennett at least on our side. How many major scientists can you name who still aren't sure whether they believe in deity or not, in contrast to those (even those who, unlike Dawkins et al., don't write about their disbelief in particular)?

So the doctrine there is no deity is based on belief....i.e. faith. Atheists have faith there is no God. Just as Christians (and Jews and Moslems) have faith that there is. But there is a slight difference. Christians and other believers say directly their belief is based on faith. Atheists don't admit this about their belief. Actually, we don't have to, see above. And I have no issue with people of faith who know that their faith aren't rationally-based - that's the very definition, to go back to the dictionary, *of* faith - belief in the absence of evidence. I have friends of faith with whom I don't even argue theology, since they admit, in your term, that their faith is faith-based. The friends I do argue with, and we stay friends, are those who try to rationalize their faith. And we have lots of fun. Do you enjoy these kinds of discussions when they are limited, as I am trying to do, to specific statements expecting specific answers?

So, it seems, atheism and atheists, in addition to their other charms (especially on Mudcat)-- e.g. ignorance of history, refusal to do research before sounding off, etc.-- are in addition, intellectually dishonest. I assume the history point is about the unmentionable dead horse we will let lie like the sleeping dog it is. I know about the historical research we have both done in that vein. What scientific research have you done into the question of deity is not a valid question, as explained above, so I'm not asking that. Instead, I will ask you if by not asking that question, would you agree that I'm keeping this particular point of discussion intellectually honest?

OK, that's it for my answers to your specific points. I look forward to your answers.

Meanwhile, I'd like others to think about the sheer number of different religious beliefs which all preach that all *other* religions are false. Let's pretend there are, say, 100 beliefs, each of which could be summarized as "the 99 other religions are wrong." All of these beliefs are based on human interpretations of texts first written by humans long, long ago (or, in the case of L. Ron Hubbard, not so long ago), and recopied *and translated* and otherwise changed by humans down through the ages. What would make anyone able to pick one of these as "the" revealed word of "their" particular deity to "their" particular prophet?

I've heard it said that belief that 99 of these hypothetical 100 faiths being false is shared by theists and atheists alike. Atheists just go one god farther.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM

What a load of twaddle.
Faith is not a matter of reason; it can defy reason. So to try to use reason or logic to 'prove' a matter of faith is absurd.
My own view is, let the religious believe in what they will, provided they don't try to inflict their beliefs on others. Then, like the rest of us, they'll be a long time dead.
My atheism is based on reason, not faith. Nothing intellecutally dishonest about that. That reason would be hugely convinced if anyone could show one convincing proof of the existence of a supernatural being. Just one. And one that did not depend upon faith, but was founded on reason; on tangible, measurable, ascertainable fact.

Odd that we're all born atheists, in the implicit sense. Then - gnerally - our upbringing and cultural conditioning introduces us to god, allah, jahweh, krishna, baal or whatever, and we buy into it. Personally I am amazed at the faith that got the Mayans to build their temples in Central America; hauling vast stones over long distancees through the jungle to make an edifice as high as St Paul's cathedral. Faith is an astonishing thing - but it's not for me as a rationalist product of the Enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 09:31 AM

Hey, the old pucky has served DougR well for years - just thought I'd give it a test drive around the block.

funny how when Douggie uses it ad nauseum nobody calls him a moron.....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:00 PM

And so it goes...I guess this shall be my last post, my last look at this thread as it takes so long to download with dial-up. Ron said it. The nurse issue has been hashed over enough, the arguments are repeating and the comment from Greg F sums up the level of intellect of some who believe they are great debaters. A simple course in the fundamentals of logic would serve you well Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:58 PM

Horsepucky, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 08:40 PM

To boil this down to the essentials (obviously the nurse topic is long since beaten into the ground), let's go to the dictionary. Atheism: " disbelief in the existence of deity;" "doctrine there is no deity."

And what is this disbelief based on? Specious abuse of mathematics to play games with probability doesn't cut it, sorry. It's based on....uh...uh...the belief itself. And nothing else. Since there is no conclusive proof or even solid evidence. Yes there is no proof there is a God. Great straw man, congratulations. But there is no proof there is not. Since obviously there can be no proof on a proposition which is by definition unknowable. As anybody who depends on empirical evidence realizes. Why do you suppose there are so few atheist scientists?   In contrast to agnostic scientists. Because they realize it's an open question.

So the doctrine there is no deity is based on belief....i.e. faith.

Atheists have faith there is no God. Just as Christians (and Jews and Moslems) have faith that there is.

But there is a slight difference. Christians and other believers say directly their belief is based on faith. Atheists don't admit this about their belief.

So, it seems, atheism and atheists, in addition to their other charms (especially on Mudcat)-- e.g. ignorance of history, refusal to do research before sounding off, etc.-- are in addition, intellectually dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:47 AM

OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

Difficult to beg off, change the subject, or walk away when it's an elderly person, housebound, infirm, being administered to by a fit young healthy nurse in her own home.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 09:07 AM

calling Bill D stupid? now that's stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Shall do, Slag. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:08 PM

Damn that spell check!

Mrrzy, a meeting of the minds! Thank you for your reasonableness.. it's nice to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

Ebbie! There you go again! I have been sitting here racking my last little grey cell ( I have a few left you know) and can't come up with the guy's name. At one time his group was called something like "Youth in Conflict" or "Youth in crisis". I Googled both and couldn't come up with it. Got it: Gothard! I think it is Bill Gotherd. Wait...Yes that is it. They were followers of Gothard. There is a lot of pros and cons on him but I certainly do NOT subscribe to his spin on things.

Key word in there was "uniform". That is what I began to see it as. They would do things like get up in unison and walk out of the church building if papa didn't like the particular hymn that was being sung. Whisper campaigns were started against anyone who didn't conform to their view of how things should be. The first target was the intelligensia ( such as it was). They would turn and stare continuously at someone they disapproved of. Really weird stuff. I found out that they had been run out of the last church they attended. Using Gothard's name, you can find out their priciples yourself, if you're interested, however be aware that their public preachment is not "upfront" or straight forward. Read some of the con too.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:00 PM

Agreed, Mrrzzy. However, I suspect that when love does evil things, there is other facets at work. Control and manipulation and grandiosity and fear may all be presented under the umbrella of love but I think we'd agree that it ain't love.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

Just because you do an evil thing out of love doesn't make your love evil, is that what you're saying? I agree, but it's a fine line!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM

Slag, I hope you're not intimating that the family in that video is evil. In my opinion the parents - and therefore the children - are seriously misguided but love, as manifested, cannot be evil. Mistaken, yes.

I also don't understand your story: "The women folk wore homespun and gingham head scarfs as a uniform. The men dressed in simple black. They became a major source of division in that church and sad to say, the leadership saw NOTHING. It turned out they were followers of quasi-Christian cult. The children were all home schooled to keep the taint of the world away and their ignorance was as appalling as was their dedication to the principals of their true leader. Brrrrrr!"

What "quasi-Christian cult" did they espouse? Who was their "true leader"? What were the "principals" (sic) of that leader?

In Oregon there is a community of 'Old Believers", a Russian group that years ago broke away from the Orthodox church. They too wear gingham scarves and plain (NOT homespun) dresses. So far as I know, no one has ever considered them threatening.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM

In the meantime, the nurse in question has probably retired now....

Wow, this thread is still going?

It appears to have become a "is there a God" thread. so...

Here in The UK, a group of people fed up with religion being rammed down their throats paid for a set of posters on buses saying "There probably is no God, so just get on with enjoying your life" or something like that.

A bunch of "Christians" complained to the Advertising Standards Agency. The non believers pointed out all the posters saying there is a God.

So... it appears The Advertising Standards Agency can only close the book on the complaint by adjudicating on whether God exists or not.

I heard a contributor to a BBC Radio 4 programme say this the other day;

Religion is like a huge fierce looking dog. When it is your dog, it is cuddly, friendly and faithful. To other people, it is nasty looking, dangerous and liable to hurt you.

Oh, and don't let it near the children....

By the way, everything I have read on this thread since last posting on it (seems centuries ago) has done nothing to alter my view, (that her actions were gross professional misconduct) and the more I read, the sadder I get about some of my fellow human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM

Nicely put: It is not unlikely that one will meet Christians in their day-to-day life. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that the topic of their religious affiliations or other aspects of their beliefs will come up in the course of their daily lives. People tend to talk about what is closest to their hearts. Isn't that a reasonable picture? If you don't want to hear about some one's motorcycle, grandchildren, waffle recipes, philosophy of life OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

Or, in my case, you mention your atheism and then change the subject. I don't usually bring it up first... but as an aside, an unimportant facet, and then try to go on with the conversation. Amazing how hard that is sometimes! But it's worth it to bring atheism out of the closet and into the realm of the normal. Which it isn't in the Southern US, although it is frequently elsewhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM

There was a large family that began attending a church I once attended. The women folk wore homespun and gingham head scarfs as a uniform. The men dressed in simple black. They became a major source of division in that church and sad to say, the leadership saw NOTHING. It turned out they were followers of quasi-Christian cult. The children were all home schooled to keep the taint of the world away and their ignorance was as appalling as was their dedication to the principals of their true leader. Brrrrrr!

I have no doubt that were a Hitler-like charismatic leader to come on the scene, little groups like this one would fall into step (goose?) immediately. When lack of success called them to richer fields they left taking a couple of families with them. Many more left because of the leaderships receptiveness to the invasion.

By nature, evil hides itself, its motives, from its intended victims and keeps itself hidden until a fortuitous time. Once its mission is completed, it goes back into hiding. Now you might be tempted to liken this nurse's action to the same but it is not. Christianity and churches have a local and national presence in this nation, England and many other western countries and beyond. They are open organizations and are upfront about their evangelistic efforts and other endeavors. It is not unlikely that one will meet Christians in their day-to-day life. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that the topic of their religious affiliations or other aspects of their beliefs will come up in the course of their daily lives. People tend to talk about what is closest to their hearts. Isn't that a reasonable picture? If you don't want to hear about some one's motorcycle, grandchildren, waffle recipes, philosophy of life OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

RD makes a valid point that some atheists actions have proven to be stupid. Stupid because they may have helped accomplish the very thing they were against. That's stupid and as Forest Gump's Momma always said "Stupid is as stupid does."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:07 PM

To me it's a bit of a trip down memory lane. I am very familiar with that mindset and with its strivings and exhortations. I feel tremendous sympathy for the girl and empathy with her family. The family itself appears to be a loving one and the kids seem in full understanding of what the parents are trying to accomplish.

That said, I hope that as the girl gets a bit older she will mellow into a woman with terrific people skills, with compassion ad acceptance. On the other hand, it is possible the she will remain a judgmental person and become a bitter, strident woman.

What does truly concern me is the inevitable child in the family of 11 children who finds her or himself unable to accept the beliefs they are being brought up to obey unquestioningly.

There are few things worse than being a child severely out of sync; it can take years to understand and to forgive.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:06 PM

Isn't the fact that 'a percentage' of people, be they five percent, or ten percent, be they atheist, or of alternative faith, or whatever, against the notion of Christian propositioning in formal care giver guise, be enough to delimit that care giver to her proscribed role?

If I have a house cleaner, do I want her selling me kosha meat? Or the windowcleaner, offering me Anne Summers catalogues?

A human service or contract, should not stretch beyond it's agreed and mutually understood limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM

How typical is Deborah, 13 - Servant of God of modern day evangelical Christians? How do Christians feel watching this? Or is this the ideal upper middle-class Utopia we all should be aspiring to - or else sympathetic of?

For me, it's like watching a broadcast from Zeta Reticuli.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM

Unfortunately, Ron, there is a difference between being called stupid and being demonstrated to be illogical.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM

"No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hang for all we care
The Swastika brings salvation on earth"

Ron, I know you know the German language- would you please post these lyrics in German? I want to read it in the original. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:16 AM

You got it, pfr! So what hippy CDs were you listening to last night? I started with Kevin Ayer's Shooting at the Moon and ended up with The Fall's Live at the Witch Trails which I still reckon is their finest album. For anyone doubting this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IOfQO9z-7g

Someone's always on my tracks
In a dark room you see more than you think
I'm out of my place, got to get back
I sweated a lot, you could feel the violence

I've got shears pointed straight at my chest
And time moves slow when you count it
I'm better than them, and I think I'm the best
But I'll appear at midnight when the films close

Cause I'm in a trance
and I sweat
I don't want to dance
I want to go home.

I couldn't live in those peephole places
They might get to know my actions
I'd run away from toilets and faeces
I'd run away to a non-date on the street

Cause I'm in a trance
and I sweat
I don't want to dance
I want to go home.

I feel trapped by mutual affection
And I don't know how to use freedom
I spend hours looking sideways
to the time when I was sixteen

Cause I'm in a trance.

I'm frightened.
Amphetamine frightened

I go to the top of the street
I go to the bottom of the street
I look to the sky, my lips are dry....

Which reminds me, more Jim Eldon on YouTube too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-td43zcQg

And here's Mark E. Smith at his most Jim-like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCFWuHNYflo

A hall full of cards left unfilled
Ended his life on wine and pills,
A sign in a graveyard on a hill reads...
Bingo Master's Beakout!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:09 AM

How is atheism stupid? Let me count the ways.

Well, obviously, everybody comes at this from his or her own perspective. Mine is in large part American and political.

To put it mildly, I did not enjoy the 8 years under Bush.   The 2004 election was very close. It appears clear one of the main factors was how the fundamentalist Right turned out for Bush. It's also clear that stupidity among militant atheists, still amply on view on Mudcat, played a large role. Senseless, in fact counterproductive, crusades like trying to remove "In God We Trust" from coins, take "under God" from the Pledge, and remove 10 Commandments plaques from courthouses (among other ideas) gave the "Religious Right" an amazing amount of red meat to push their congregations to vote for Bush. The pathetic numbers and utter lack of organization of atheists assured that the only outcome of their campaigns would be negative for them, and their whining did not help Kerry in the least. Atheists' interference in politics in the US is indeed the height of stupidity, since the other side is so much more powerful. And since atheists can hardly agree on anything, they will never be organized in the US.

As I've noted, atheism is also the stupidest form of belief since it makes a God-substitute--and a personality cult--so easy. We've seen the results in the regimes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao. Militant atheism does try to supplant other forms of religion.

Warning: Hitler reference:   anybody who does not like it is invited to go play in another sandbox.

At Nuremberg rallies one of the songs the Hitlerjugend sang included:

No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hang for all we care
The Swastika brings salvation on earth




It seems on Mudcat we have an amazing wealth of evidence that militant atheism, which several posters display, is stupid. We have the brilliant poster who seems rather strongly to believe that Hitler had no choice but to be a mass murderer--after all he started out as a Catholic. And there's the poster, truly in the stupid anti-intellectual tradition of aggressive yahoos worldwide, who warns us against "unhealthy knowledge".

Then, speaking to the topic of the thread, we have the posters who seem to be governed by stupid paranoia, seeing in the nurse's offer of prayer a "violation" and denial of diversity, and insisting that she should be prevented from offering a prayer. That is, in the grand tradition of stupid fundamentalism, they seek to impose their will on the the rest of the world. Yet they do not recognize themselves as the classic bigots they are.

I hope I'm not being too subtle here.

A lot more can be said, but, in contrast to some posters, I don't have unlimited time to waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punbkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:59 AM

f@ck.. i just wanna bang some loud chords out in a band
called "Weasel Leather" !!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM

gotcha punchline for ya..

i genuinely wanna be in a middle aged cultural confrontalionalist situasionist punk folk band called

"Weasle Leather"

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

what is the nurse had been an exteme obsessive evangelical "Star Wars" fanatic.. !!!!!???

I hear in America of people going to their work dressed up as Klingons and taking out law-suits on anyone who opposes their right to do this. Earlier on I said there is only one type of human being in the world - by which I meant, of course, the human individual, however so culturally defined we might be in that individuality. Some of these individuals will hate the music of (say) Bob Dylan (such as myself, I actually find it painful to listen to, though I delight in his Theme Time Radio Hour), others will love it with a devoted passion (yeah, even with the wannabe obsession that seems to have been a determining factor in the creation of the folk scene). I believe Dylan himself was once Saved, thus inspiring, no doubt, further cries of Judas from the audience he had helped to enlighten over the previous decade or so, who now found themselves adrift from their cultural moorings. I believe Bob didn't remain saved very long, just a passing phase, during which time I dare say he was still the same person even if had adopted a creed which seems determined to condemn non-believers to the exquisite sufferings of the old fantasy inferno and using that as an excuse to try and save the rest of us. Fact is, he changed his mind. One day he might change it back. One day he might even become a Klingon. It matters not, just as long as he accepts that what's true for himself is not necessarily true for the rest of us, and any assumption to the contrary is a violation of our right to the diversity which I'd say is one of the few fundamental truths I can think of.

There survives in Cheshire the last remaining farm dedicated to the breeding of Concertina Weasels, a sub-species of Mustela nivalis selectively bread for their strong yet supple pelts which are used in the construction of superior concertina bellows. If you want to know if your concertina is made from weasel leather, you must look inside, where, on the very finest models, the fur is still on. Generally it's only the English Concertina that used weasel leather, though a number of quality Anglos use it too. It doesn't come cheap, but as one concertina maker pointed out to me, it is as much about preserving the ancient family tradition of weasel farming as it is about the quality of the musical instrument. Sadly, whilst passing that way last week, I noticed a camp of animal rights protesters on the wayside by the farm entrance, and on the local news that night it was reported that the farm had been broken into and much of the breeding stock let loose into the wild. I'm sure there is perfect punchline to this, but I'm blowed if I can think of one.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:25 AM

thinking about it..


..s'pose it coulda been a whole lot worse..




what is the nurse had been an exteme obsessive evangelical "Star Wars" fanatic.. !!!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 10:09 PM

Rumor has it that CNN, Al Jazeera, and Jon Stewart are all vieing(veeing, vooing?) for that once in a lifetime interview with God. God's agent, naturally, is holding out for "suitable" compensation...Given the magnitude and "Historical" significance of the event. And a meeting place amenable to both parties is being discussed as we speak....Film at 11...

The betting line in Vegas has Stewart in the lead at 5 to 4. CNN is ready to pump cash to sweeten the deal, while Al Jazeera has some Religious issues...

Our spys tell us that Stewart's first ever question to the Almighty might be along the lines of
"Proof" that He exists. God's reply? "What about the Hookers Jon?"... "And for crying out loud, I'm sitting right in front of you, like you were looking in the mirror!" "Smell the coffee, you big schpokora!"




("Schpokora" - translation...Heaven's greatest insult to humans, akin to throwing your shoe at a President on Earth...)


p.s. When some hack asked God what he thought about the "Nurse Suspension for Praying" thing on earth. God refused to comment...

BR/CANADA, eh...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM

Bob Ryszkiewicz, you make a good application of Schrodinger's Cat! It is both alive and dead.

I have made the point that any "proof" of God is doomed to fail; The God of Biblical fame, that is. It is PURELY a faith proposition. Mrrzy's odds are a little off too. Mathematically or in the realm of probability the odds are a flat zero, that's 0.0, of proving the existence of God. All knowledge of the Biblical God comes by way of revelation. So say the scriptures.

Conversely, in the realm of the dimensional universe, all is cause and effect: until you get to the macro, beyond our observable boundaries or into the quantum realm where you have, say, matter/energy existing in two or more places at the same time, multi dimensions and an incomplete menagerie of theoretical thingies. We attempt to reach beyond our senses with mathematics which tend to serve us well in the observable universe. Can't say that they serve us well in the theoretical universe.

If only all you can see is all you believe then atheism DOES make sense. Apollo 8 astronaut recited Genesis 1:1 from inter-lunar space. A Russian cosmonaut declared that he had ventured into "heaven" and could see no god. Both were right. It just depends on your point of view.

Back to earth now.   A nurse or any other person who subscribes to a system which extols the virtues of benefiting mankind and doing good with a selfless interest is a good thing and what ever motivates them to do such deserves honor and not contempt and sneering. No one can force you to believe what you don't want to believe so have a little charity and good will in your heart and be thankful for whatever motivates the good deed doer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: cobra
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM

Themmuns are responsible. Always have been, always will be. Ussuns on the other hand..... you will never meet nicer people.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 07:59 PM

You who mocked the beliefs of Christians-"imaginary friend", "fantasy inferno", etc. don't seem to really like it when the shoe is on the other foot--when your own beliefs are called stupid.

All you've done so far, Ron is to contradict yourself, create false oppositions, lick arses & throw insults around in the mistaken belief your approach is somehow logical. So please, take some time out to attempt some genuine logic and tell us exactly why you think it's acceptable that a vulnerable person should be put in the stressful and embarrassing position of having to refuse an offer of supernatural mumbo-jumbo from a respected authority figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:24 PM

With all due respect, Ron, you make a hell of a lot of presumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:01 PM

You who mocked the beliefs of Christians-"imaginary friend", "fantasy inferno", etc. don't seem to really like it when the shoe is on the other foot--when your own beliefs are called stupid. (I leave Bill D and Amos out of this--they did not ridicule Christians.)

Maybe next time you''ll think before your oh-so-clever denigration of another's faith. That would be progress.

And as I've said before, I'm not religious in the least. Just sticking up for minorities--and around here, that seems to include Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:26 PM

"You don't test God, God tests YOU..."

Why Bob....you may be right. He sent guys like you to tease me... *big grin*

"But seriously, using logic to test the validity of God can never work. "

But also seriously: I am not trying to "test the validity of God"... I am using my logic to explain why supposed proofs OF God are lacking....and often circular. I am making NO claims about the ultimate nature of reality and creation: others are. I am merely nodding and saying that I am not convinced.

   "I think, after some consideration, you might cry out, "Help me!"

No, Bob...I have long passed the point where I even worry about it. I try to lead a good life....I don't cheat, beat my wife or run red lights. IF there is a judgment day, I will have to just shrug and say to the 'judge':
"If you wanted everyone to totally accept the 'rules' and spirituality, you could have made it all MUCH clearer, as I am told you have the power. You made us weak & fallible, and able to doubt, and allowed hundreds of versions of The Truth to propagate, and I was unable to resolve the contradictions. So, do as you will...I don't think I'd want to live in a Heaven run that way."

I also wish YOU well and a happy, long life, Bob. You are obviously a thoughtful, caring person. We can occupy the same earthly reality on reasonably friendly terms ☺ ....and the afterlife? We shall see...or maybe there's nothing TO see.

   There's SO much to learn about what we CAN see & test and measure and be awed at.... I have no longer a need to speculate about various metaphysical possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: bfdk
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:55 PM

"Now how long will certain posters insist on beating this poor dead animal, mouldering in the ground for weeks now?"

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:39 PM

Bill D: You know I love you...No, not like that! But seriously, using logic to test the validity of God can never work. You don't test God, God tests YOU... "And what if your instruments are incapable of testing the subject?" If alien life forms exist, what if they are of such a nature that they cannot be seen by our science?

I have spent most of my like studying the power of the mind. I know that at one point in your life you will encounter a situation where all your logic & knowledge just will not apply. They will be useless.

That point may come in a hospital when your Doctor tells you, "Bill, there's nothing we can do..." When that time comes I wonder if your arguments will still continue? For at that time, you will be arguing with yourself...I think, after some consideration, you might cry out, "Help me! But then, WHO would you be talking to?

Maybe then, a Nurse will come to you to make you comfortable, even just a little bit. And she might get quiet, bow her head, and say a prayer for you. A simple thought sent into the universe for your wellbeing. It will be interesting to see your reaction at that time.

Perhaps then you might realize that we are Spirit, in human form...

Wishing you Peace & Blessings, and a long life...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM

"Bill says there's nothing after death, and you know what? That is absolutely RIGHT. But, here's where it gets strange; that reality applies to Bill alone."


awww....Bob... You wouldn't be trying to scare me, would you?

The thing is, we don't get to test it. We can make a bet, but if I ...and Mrrzy... are right, we can never collect, or even say smug things. If YOU are right, you get to at least smile as we get on the DOWN elevator.

I'm sorry, Bob....but simply stating that 'reality' is what you make it doesn't change a thing. This is a **belief**, and there are good reasons why we USE the term 'belief'. It is fine if you WISH to 'believe' X or Y, but nothing about absolute reality changes because you do.

The philosopher Blaise Pascal asserted years ago that it was at least more 'prudent' to believe in God, because you 'won' more if you were right, and you lost a LOT if you were wrong...and that at least, believing was safer because if there WAS no God, it didn't cost and you led a good life.
   Sadly, left out many of the possibilities. He just didn't take it to its conclusion.

So it is with theories of 'reality'. We can imagine all sorts of things, but just stating that "
"... whatever put us here allows each individual to create his/her reality. already **ASSUMES** that 'something put us here'.
   This is a logical fallacy You can't prove a point by assuming the truth of your premises ahead of time. You 'may' be correct, but not for that reason.

Ah, well.... all *I* can do is explain why I am a skeptic. And to return to the poor, misunderstood nurse...why she was 'assuming' that it is never inappropriate to 'offer' spiritual help. The very offer 'assumes' that there are spiritual forces to be offered. IF the patient has such beliefs, asks the nurse if she (the nurse) does, and they wish to share those beliefs in prayer, fine. Even NON-believers may provide comfort, much as Peace 'prayed' with the accident victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: cobra
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM

Dear STAB "Keith A",

You said:-

"I can't think of any examples, although religion is often wrongly used to label different ethnic groups in ethnic conflicts, e.g. N Ireland, Yugoslavia."

Now, I may be missing something but can you please explain the "different ethnic groups" involved in "ethnic conflicts e.g. N Ireland...."

Yours Aye, speaking as a non-STAB,

Cobra

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:55 PM

"But if your really, really, doubt, why still call yourself agnostic? Is it the label of atheist you don't like?"

I DON'T generally call myself agnostic...as I said, I prefer 'skeptic'. It denotes **doubt** while technically leaving open possibilities.

And yes...as I said... I don't like what the label of 'atheist' usually brings on. It's a loaded term, and I can have better debates/discussions with some people if I don't have "unrelenting unbeliever" stapled to my forehead. Am I just using language to nitpick, myself? Maybe...but it keeps ME a honest as I can be, and keeps the 'game' going as I try to make 'doubting' more popular and 'believing' less popular.

   In every 'cause', there are those who take an extreme, in-your-face, 'point' position, taking on the opposition with battle armor on and lances lowered. They get the attention...and take much of the heat. Then it is easier for reasonable little me to soothe things and be a voice of reason & understanding.....




ooops.....forget I said all that *grin*.... I shouldn't give away my strategy openly. We 'skeptics' need our disguises.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

Nursing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing

Hi Kids: What I'm about to get into here, well, you can file this under, "The Strange"...

For people like Mrzzy and Bill D the world is a 'different" place than for The Pope, Buddhist Monks, Hindus, Muslims, etc. For them, God is superstition or non-existent. Bill says there's nothing after death, and you know what? That is absolutely RIGHT. But, here's where it gets strange; that reality applies to Bill alone. For him, there WILL be nothing after death...WHY?

Because whatever put us here allows each individual to create his/her reality. We live in a Quantum Field. This is what connects us all. Stephen Hawking calls it "The Mind of God". It responds to Faith/Belief, atheist/agnostic. And GIVES you what YOU alone think. So for Mrzzy & Bill D, no God. No problem. Ancestors of Apes, and now you're taking the Tram in Picadilly, or the Subway to wherever...And posting on Mudcat...

For others, there's Religion, or not. Maybe you just think something out there had to put all of this together. But I think all that we can do in this situation is to allow different points of view their freedom to exist...

My ladyfriend works in the Hospital System and sees death all the time. part of "the job" you know. But she notices a difference in people at the point of death. Some pass away and they do so peacefully, and she describes it as "beautiful". The family mourns and are upset, of course. That's to be expected.
But others pass away in anger, hatred and fear, not so beautiful...

Was the nurse wrong? Well, she was being a nurse at the highest level to MY mind. If the patient didn't want it...well, leave them alone...

I encourage all to suspend their beliefs, and offer, let's say, "kind thoughts" to others...

Peace...bob

And remember, as some Genius somewhere once said, "THIMK!"... :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

Thanks Mrzzy. I like your name too. Kind of has a pleasantly "outer space" ring to it... mine's just an anagram of my real name.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:08 PM

atheism is supported by no logic whatsoever

Kinda like religion.....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Well put, Spleen Cringe. And what a name!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:55 PM

Personally, I think it's important for people who are pretty much convinced there isn't a god to use the term atheist to describe themselves, if nothing else to reclaim the term from people like Ron who would presume we are all rabid anti-Christians and from those few who are rabid anti-Christians. I also think it is quite possible to criticise some of the actions and beliefs of the various Christian organisations from a Christian, agnostic or atheist perspective. Doing so doesn't make you rabidly anti-Christian, but just means you are exercising your critical faculties. I do wonder if Ron is railing against imaginary adversaries rather than any of the people here. I'm sure I'm one of his 'rabid anti-Christians', but I've just spent the afternoon with a good friend who is a practising Catholic. We agree to differ on the existence of a god, but otherwise have far more in common than we have things that divide us...

And whilst I may not have a god, the religious impulse and its history is a constant source of fascination... though the last thing I read on it was a history of modern pagan witchcraft!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM

Sure, and there could be a flying spaghetti monster too. It's just more reasonable to say that there isn't one, given how small the likelihood is. I don't think it's stupid to keep your options open, given that you have the same level of doubt as an atheist might have. Nor do I think it's stupid just to go with the overwhelming evidence, as I do.
But if your really, really, doubt, why still call yourself agnostic? Is it the label of atheist you don't like? I'm trying to get the hoodoo off the term, myself, by using it to describe people like myself who see no earthly reason to believe in the supernatural.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM

" less than a 0.000000000000(...)0001 level of doubt,..."

That sorta describes me.... but I, logically I think, must continue to NOT round it to 0. So, does that make me stupid to both of you? *grin*

If I had all the lost trillions from Wall Street, I would bet it that nothing happens after death, but theoretically, I 'could' lose. Mostly, I don't like to label myself AS atheist because I then get lumped in with various rabid anti-Christians who roundly condemn almost everything churches do. That is not how I feel, so when asked, I merely call myself a "skeptic", which has less opprobrium attached to it...and refers to other things than religion.
What is going on is mincing of words. You are, Ron, making way too much of your point. Insisting that "atheism is stupid" just because they hate all the zeros and go ahead & round down ignores all the thought that led them there. (well, most of them). This attitude colors your entire focus on what the nurse should or should not do ..and what we, in discussing the nurse, should or should not agree with. The decisions about the nurse need to be pragmatic. Should she be fired or not? Will she follow the 'rules' from now on?

And Mrrzy, you fall into Ron's semantic trap by insisting THAT your atheism is reasonable...even though it is just a label. Even IF you round to zero, you 'might' be wrong.

The answer to the whole can of worms is that the hospital should make clear the rules (hopefully that spiritual guidance should be available at the request of the patient, and that the nurse should stick to nursing unless the patient directly asks.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM

Sorry, but if you have less than a 0.000000000000(...)0001 level of doubt, it is not illogical to round it to 0. Nor is it stupid. People take .05 as enough, usually, to reject the null hypothesis. If you want it in statistical terms, that is.

In English, you can have so little doubt that it's more sensible, more logical, more intelligent, to say you have none, than to cling to that scintilla and insist it means whatever you doubt must still be possible.