BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IMMEDIATLY! bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM

If this were about Christianity or the effectiveness of prayer, it might matter what people had to say about those things.

It's about professionalism and a patient's rights. If you can't try to see the suspension with those things foremost in your mind, you're posting in the wrong thread. This isn't just a religion vs not AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:23 PM

Mike... you said:

"Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed.... because the people who the stones are used on believe they work!!!!!!!."

You miss the point. Hospitals usually allow anyone to minister to any patient who requests it. Patients may always ask for spiritual help, of ANY religion. No one is excluding Christianity.

The point is that this woman did not ASK for it... and the nurse was not authorized to suggest it in her role as nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM

We don't know all the facts. All we have is some press reports which are open to interpretation in various ways, and inevitably can't tell the whole story.

As so often happens here people find themselves passionately squaring up in a battle about a particular case about which they don't have enough information to be certain about anything.

It would make much more sense to use this story as a jumping off point for discussing issues of principle and practice, maybe drawing on personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM

The nurse had previously been told not to bring her religion into her working day. She disobeyed that order. What are her superiors to do? Allow her to continue with her behaviour?

She says that she found it more and more difficult not to offer the prayer cards. Why? That would seem to be a failing on her part and maybe a reason why she should not be doing this sort of work. Suppose that it was someone who smoked and made that excuse for having a crafty one in someone else's house? I doubt that anyone here would accept that as a good reason.

Whatever she did, it obviously made this elderly patient feel uncomfortable enough that she felt the need to comment/complain about it. That, to my mind, is sufficient reason for action to be taken. The main reason why this is such a big event is that it involves religion. Take that out of the equation and this would just be someone not abiding by the rules of her employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:29 PM

My sympathies to the nurse in question. You could argue that she should have waited to be invited to pray, that she had to follow an anal code of conduct etc., etc., ......
.
.. or you could argue that she was trying to be kind, trying to offer something she believed worthwhile and beneficial and was quite ready to desist when the patient said 'no'. She didn't sound to me like she was forcing anything on anyone.

Wait for the day when a waiter is sacked for recommending the peanut-ice cream without realizing the customer suffers from a peanut allergy. The customer could make a big deal of it, act all offended (!) that the possibility of their having a peanut allergy was taken into consideration, somehow, by being asked about without being asked about it so nobody would get offended... give me a break! Or they could simply say, 'no thanks' and leave it at that.


Last year my wife and I lost a child. When I went to collect her at the hospital, the taxi driver asked 'where to?' and I said 'maternity' (which was correct). "Oh! Congratulations! A girl or a boy?" he asked......

Now I could have got all offended at his lack of forethought and tact and reported him to the taxi base, messing up his life while hardly enriching my own either. Then the taxi base would probably have brought in 'new guidelines' informing staff / drivers not to ask any 'personal' questions of customers, thereby forever more ruling out any social chit chat and turing them into driving automatons like in Total Recall.

But I realized he was pleased for me, not realizing the whole story, and was just trying to be nice / friendly. So instead I just said "well, it's early days yet, and she's just had some tests" (which was more-or-less true) thereby saving him any embarrassment for asking an awkward question (it would have been unrealistic to lie outright and say we had a baby, as I would probably have been unable to fake sufficient joy at that moment). So that was that and he went on, none the wiser. That has always been my policy.

What would it have accomplished to put him on the spot and make him feel awkward? Would it have made my pain any less? I don't think so, probably the opposite. To me it seems there is something deeply uncharitable in the PC world, a readiness to take offence even when none is intended. A world where the spirit of genuine charity is replaced by hundreds of itsy-bitsy laws. Ok, I'm not saying PC hasn't helped erased some unworthy behaviour, such as racist terms etc., but it should have quit while it was ahead. Harsh? I just think it goes too far sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:23 PM

Christianity hardly gets singled out for criticism. Had she been a Wiccan, and offered to practice some white magic for the patient, I suspect she would have been fired rather than suspended.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:27 PM

Had she been a Wiccan, and I the patient, I would just have smiled and said 'no thank you' and left it at that. She might have decided to do some kind of Wiccan ceremony for me anyway in private, what I don't know won't hurt me, and I in turn might have gone away and said a prayer for her. There would be no call for me to denounce her to the Elders and have her burned at the stake.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:47 PM

Still, you'd think nurses would be looking to science to solve problems, and not to superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:49 PM

True, and I'm sure she didn't neglect to apply all her medical skills as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:10 PM

Had she been a Wiccan and offered to do white magic, and the patient reported it to her bosses (as in the case of the woman who was suspended), she probably would have been fired.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:11 AM

Anyone in the medical and emergency services even a humble first aiders are trained that you NEVER inflict your personal beliefs on your casualty.

Thanks for putting it so well, Megan.

And, for the record, in Susan's defence, I am one of those who do NOT like someone praying for me without asking my permission! I may not feel as strongly about it as I used to, but I still prefer being asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:10 AM

Is that what "fired" means? I must have missed the bit about her being reported to Elders to be burned at the stake.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Micca
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:21 AM

what seems to be missed is that if someone "responsible for ones treatment" offers to "pray for you" some older folks could feel worried by this as in "why is this person offering to pray for me?, What do they know (or suspect) about my condition that I am not being told?".
Having just been on the receiving end of a LOT of good thoughts (all very welcome) from many good friends here at Mudcat I think I can say with a certain authority that it is in the source and manner of the offer that mattered to me, from folks I regarded as Friends, I found it acceptable in the manner it was expressed (the format it might take was irrelevent) it is that "thread of Friendship" that was important to me and the part that would work "The Magic".
I also spent time in the hospital and would have been disturbed at a stranger, Christian, offering to "Pray for Me" without knowing my beliefs,(even tho' my hospital admission form says "Pagan" under Religion) I suppose its the apparent arrogance , and implied " My God is better than Your Goddess" that rankles.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:29 AM

From Nick:

"To me it seems there is something deeply uncharitable in the PC world, a readiness to take offence even when none is intended. A world where the spirit of genuine charity is replaced by hundreds of itsy-bitsy laws. Ok, I'm not saying PC hasn't helped erased some unworthy behaviour, such as racist terms etc., but it should have quit while it was ahead. Harsh? I just think it goes too far sometimes."


Absolutely agree, Nick. 100%

Some people have gone completely bonkers. It's also been brought on by people wanting to claim loadsa money for being 'mortally insulted' by the most banal goings on. There is a whole 'industry' built up around PC these days.

It's Corporate Thought Control.

It's also become driven by greed, spite, control freaks and narrow-mindedness.

What a way to run society...

God help us all....whoever your God may be, or....may not be.

And hey, next time someone sneezes do NOT say "Bless you!" because hell, you may cause SEVERE offence to that person, and they have to have many months of special treatment and a whole wadge o' money to get over it...if of course they are ever able to.

And God help anyone who says "GOD Bless You!" over a sneeze, because that will probably be a hanging, drawing and quartering offence!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:31 AM

McGrath of Harlow wrote:"We don't know all the facts. All we have is some press reports which are open to interpretation in various ways, and inevitably can't tell the whole story.

As so often happens here people find themselves passionately squaring up in a battle about a particular case about which they don't have enough information to be certain about anything".

Of course this is true. However this is true of practically most things on this board. It's a board that deals with a lot of history (often dating back many hundreds of years), folklore, the origins of songs and traditions that have become fogged in time or old age &c. We don't have all the facts on any of those things. Should the 'above the line' part of the forum get closed down?

Similarly, with the below the line stuff, all the news articles are in a similar position: it's unlikely we'll ever have all the facts. Should that part of the forum get closed down too?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:40 AM

Nickhere wrote: "Wait for the day when a waiter is sacked for recommending the peanut-ice cream without realizing the customer suffers from a peanut allergy.

Nick, no offence, but that's a poor analogy as at least the service of food is part of the waiter's remit as they work in the food and drink industry. The whole point of this story is that the nurse doesn't work in the spiritual welfare industry, she's employed as a medical practitioner.

Also, the crux of the matter in your analogy is whether the waiter had proffered the recommendation or the customer had asked for a recommendation. Too very different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:49 AM

Bill. You said..of me....

.>>>>>>You miss the point. Hospitals usually allow anyone to minister to any patient who requests it. Patients may always ask for spiritual help, of ANY religion. No one is excluding Christianity.<<<<<<<
you put the accent on people who REQUEST the help... but the women with the stones/crystals actively approach people and offer their healing practice...... they have access to all the wards.
If this type of intervention can give some people relief then fine... the point I am trying to make is that as a Christian I see it as my duty to offer prayer for ANYONE in any situation who I think might need it. People can always say 'No'....... I am no longer working but in my career I prayed for many people who I came into contact with through my work..... I asked if they wanted me to pray for them..... some said yes.. some said no.... their choice.
At the end of the day.. this nurse was trying to HELP people.... what the heck is wrong with that???????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:32 AM

Facts

1. This did not happen in a hospital

2. The victim is in her late 70's

3. From the information given she is either housebound or mobility resticted since she couldnt attend the surgery for treatment.

I am so glad you are all obviously so hale and hearty that that the idea of someone being made emotionally fragile enough by illness or injury to feel threatened or made anxious by the actions of a visitor to thier house is aparently beyond comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM

I'm not suggesting we don't discuss this - just that it makes a lot more sense to talk about stuff we know - our own experiences, and the beliefs we have arrived at about what is the right thing to do in this kind of situation, rather than speculating about a particular incident about which we have very limited knowledge.

For example I find the idea that we should ask permission before praying for someone really strange - I don't mean praying with them or praying over them, just remembering them in our prayers. But it sounds as if some people do think that. It seems clear that there are a nunber of different ideas about what "prayer" is. Where people use the same word but mean something different it gives rise to misunderstandings as we argue past each other, because we don't take those different meanings into account.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:57 AM

From wyrdolafr: The whole point of this story is that the nurse doesn't work in the spiritual welfare industry, she's employed as a medical practitioner.


I think that doctors and nurses *are* working in a spiritual welfare industry every single moment of their working lives. The problem is Political Correctness has made it a 'scientific' industry only now. What a bloody loss!

The mind is as important as the body, in some cases even more so, and I seem to recall this nurse saying something about taking the whole person into account, not just 'the medical problem'...and here it is.

"Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health."

Having someone show they care, even it's just in saying, "Would you like me to say a prayer with/for you?" or "Would you like me to leave ssome loving words for you?" is often a huge step in the patient sstarting to feel that they are not alone.

I recently told the story in another thread of our local GPs surgery. Many of the women in there, the receptionists, are cold and aloof, but *very* PC. Everything is done 'by the book'. Does it make the patients happy? No. Two of them, on the same day, spoke to me about it, saying how UNhappy it made them. One of those patients was a former nurse. When she DID come across a member of staff who was kind and compassionate, she burst into tears, because it was so unusual that it overwhelmed her.

As a former medical secretary/receptionist myself, I used to hug my patients. Sometimes they cried all over me, so I hugged them harder. Nowadays, I'd get sent before some crazy disciplinary something or other, where Cromwellian Folk would sit in judgement of me, label me a pervert and probably put me in prison, let alone take my job away.

The first time I lost one of my little 'souls' I wept in the arms of the chief radiologist, who held me tight, really tight, until there were no tears left. He was the most lovely man, and it was his caring attitude, more than anything, which set me back on the road to hope and health. He didn't act 'by the book' because in those days, there was NO *book* He simply acted on a very human level, to another of his species who was in deep distress. He went out of his way to help me, in a very sad and complicated situation. He visited me three times in hospital and made sure he was there on the day I was discharged, to go through everything with me again...and I gave him a big hug before I left.

His act of caring is still with me today, decades later.

Today, he'd have lost his job almost instantly. He'd have not offered me the beautiful words he did, of such deep wisdom, nor would he have been able to have set me off on the road to eventually having my son, having made me believe in myself, and given me the *spiritual* courage to go on and to survive.

What he gave me *was* purely spiritual, not medical, even though he knew the diagnosis, made it himself and knew the consequences would be long-term.

Nowadays, faced with the same situation, I'd have been told my baby was dead, then just given cold scientific facts, and left to get on with things myself.

I know, because this is what happened the next time round, when I lost another little soul. This time new 'rules' had come into being, and people were no longer allowed to hug one another without even thinking about it. I left that second hospital feeling lost. I felt cold inside...I felt I wanted to die, I felt that no-one cared, nor understood. In short, it was the most sterile situation I had ever been in, and I was surrounded by people who I found cold, miserable and dispassionate. Oh yes, they did everything 'by the book' but I was left almost without hope.

Luckily, I went home and thought back to Dr. Dubbins. His words were so emblazoned inside me, because he'd told me them about three times, and had got me to repeat them back to him, so that he was certain I knew the way forward, and they came floating back to me, as did his empathy and compassion and his will, his utter determination to see me through it all. So, although I was now living in a different place, far from him, I held his spiritual care deep inside me.

So please, don't give me medicine 'by the book'. Let me take the people who are not afraid to reach out and touch, to feel the pain of others and then do something tactile about it, because so very often, that is when the healing starts, long before the first 'drugs' have been administered.

A touch, or a kind thought, even an offer of prayer, means more to me than a thousand injections, or politically correct forms filled in by some cold, unfeeling 'superior officer' who wants to ensure that all is done in the 'correct manner'

They should b*gger off out of it and leave humans to return to the loving, laughing, caring species that we were once, where we were NOT afraid to reach out and touch each other, nor speak to one another freely and in a loving, caring manner.


In the letter, Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, was asked to attend an equality and diversity course and warned: "If there is any further similar incident it may be treated as potential misconduct and the formal disciplinary procedure could be instigated."

Bloody Little Hitlers!

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

A caring human being and I bet she's a bloody good nurse too.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject [of religion]."

Thought Police!

It is the second incident – the offer to pray for a patient – that led to the disciplinary action. She was suspended from her part-time job, without pay, on December 17.

Absolutely outrageous!

She faced an internal disciplinary meeting last Wednesday and expects to learn the outcome this week.

See?   And had that nonsense been around when I needed to be held and looked after spiritually, then I may well not have lived to tell the tale, because of the terrible implications involved and which I *only* got through because of one man's compassionate caring of my Spirit.

At last week's hour-long meeting, Mrs Petrie says she was told the patient had said she was not offended by the prayer offer but the woman argued that someone else might have been.

Yes, well, I hope that ol' woman is sitting there feeling really smug!
Daft ol' biddy. I'm sorry but folk who go round stirring up trouble like that do not have my respect. There are far too many of them these days. Seems to me she had nothing better to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:05 AM

Define prayer.

In my opinion, prayer is little more than positive energy. Positive energy heals.
Why do humans have to complicate everything?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:07 AM

Megan, this lady wasn't offended. She hadn't felt threatened.

So tell me, WHY did she then do what she did?

If you want my answer, it's because so many people have been 'brainwashed' to 'inform' on others.

It scares the whatsits out of me to be honest, and it bodes very ill for society, which soon will be almost unable to function because of incidents such as these, where nothing need ever have happened in the first place.

This nurse is being made to feel as if she's some kind of criminal!

WHY?

Because she offered to pray for someone?

Personally, I'm off to pray for the nurse, in the hope that common sense may one day return to this planet so that kind hearted people such as she obviously is aren't looked upon as something to be almost be despised.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM

"In my opinion, prayer is little more than positive energy. Positive energy heals.
Why do humans have to complicate everything?"


Spot on, Kendall!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM

Now what you wrote about your own experience there Lizzie was interesting. I'd agree with just about everything you said there - if some people wouldn't and wanted to say why, that'd be interesting too, and some point to it.

But speculating about the ins and outs of this newspaper case gets in the way of any genuine discussion. Too many unknowns, and no prospect of getting a clear picture. My guess is that the authorities have put their foot in it, but it's a guess that might be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:12 AM

Lizzie, I'm too simple to be complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

I have always felt that the very ethos of Nursing as a profession,embodied many of the underpinning tenets of the Christian religion in the first place.The very notion of nurses being just cold,unemotional,atheist scientists,devoid utterly of all human love,compassion,and understanding is ,frankly,terrifying.It is,of course,arguable that this particular nurse MAY have been slightly over-enthusiastic and possibly a trifle evangelical,in her methodology in this instance,but it would be cruel,heartless and positively DISRESPECTFUL ( and therefore,politically incorrect)to all Christians of whatever persuasion,to suggest that this particular nurse acted in any way OTHER than out of genuine concern for the happiness and welfare of her patient,who is probably some vindictive old bat with Alzheimers Disease in the first place.It is high time that the PC Cretins who now infest the upper echelons of NHS management started to SUPPORT their staff ,instead of vilifying them for being kind and thoughtful. Talk about a "Storm in a Teacup" !! Can't the NHS management morons find something better to do ??
PS If you're a nurse,and you're reading this, you can pray for me ANY day of the week !!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

The incredible thing about this is that the patient has not made a formal complaint. She mentioned it to the sister who came to see her the following day.

When my mother was dying from cancer she mentioned to both the doctor and the nurse attending her that she would like to claim attendance allowance. They both promised to bring forms to be signed. I kept reminding them. Everybody forgot, my mother died and of course you cannot claim after the death. I didn't bother to make a formal complaint because it just did not seem to be worth the bother. However, I did mention it to the people concerned and said that they should make sure it did not happen again because people need that money, are entitled to that money and don't want hassles when they are dying. That was the end of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Rapunzel
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM

In case anyone is interested, here is the Code of Conduct to which all UK nurses & midwives must adhere.

NMC Code of Conduct

I'll make no further comment as I am also bound by this code - and impartiality is a big part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:10 AM

McGrath of Harlow wrote: "I'm not suggesting we don't discuss this - just that it makes a lot more sense to talk about stuff we know - our own experiences, and the beliefs we have arrived at about what is the right thing to do in this kind of situation, rather than speculating about a particular incident about which we have very limited knowledge.

That's fair enough, but I'd have thought that all the posts on this thread were all informed in some way or another. I'd have thought everyone here understands what a nurse is what nurses do or are supposed to do. Similarly, people having a view or an experience of religion (of various kinds).


"For example I find the idea that we should ask permission before praying for someone really strange - I don't mean praying with them or praying over them, just remembering them in our prayers".

Personally, I kind of agree with this. I mean, how would the other person know?


"But it sounds as if some people do think that. It seems clear that there are a nunber of different ideas about what "prayer" is".

I'd be very surprised if people do have conflicting ideas about what 'prayer' actually is. There might be (subtle) differences as to how prayer is expressed or who the prayer is to, but ultimately prayer is something inextricably tied to religion and therefore very different than wishing someone well or good thoughts. A prayer can be wishing someone well or sending good thoughts but it's involving a chosen third (supernatural) party.

I think if any confusion is arising, it's because people are prone to wanting to involve and explain things through their chosen third (supernatural) party.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

During my long (2 years plus) serious and life-threatening illness, the nicest thing anyone said to me, the most uplifting words I heard, was "I'm praying for you". Even as a (then) non-Christian, I took great heart and comfort from those four simple words, especially when they came from people around the world whom I'd never met (some of them Mudcatters, some of them fellow-folkies, some of them employees of the company I work for).

They didn't ask my permission, they didn't need to. And even though I wasn't at that time a Believer, the simple fact of their faith made a huge difference to me and the way I dealt with my illness.

They changed my life. Thanks to every one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:29 AM

The facts, as far as we can tell are that the nurse had been told previously that she was not to bring her religious faith into her work. The regulations on behaviour for nurses visiting patients in their homes are fairly strict. Caroline Petrie worked on a contract that included the rule that she should not use her professional status to promote causes that are not related to health. Which was what she did.

The patient may not have complained formally to the Trust, but she certainly mentioned the incident to the next nurse who visited her. Having been told previously that she should not break this rule, Ms. Petrie ignored both the rule (again) and the warning.

In this instance her common sense and professionalism gave way to her religious beliefs. And a good health worker (or medical secretary, Lizzie - my wife, now retired, was a very good medical secretary for over 40 years) is perfectly capable of being efficient, kind, sensitive and caring without bringing religion into the equation. It would have been a similar outcome (suspension) if Ms. Petrie had been offering patients medical opinions on the patients' conditions - it's simply not allowed and you get into trouble if you do it.

It's not a question of "being kind" or the Trust going "over the top" - it's a case of a straightforward rule being broken by a professional who should have known better and who had already been warned about breaking it. So she was suspended pending an enquiry. Not sacked. She may well be reinstated as a bank nurse after the enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

If someone wants to pray for a patient it can be done without wearing one's faith on the sleeve.
If a carer or nurse (whatever) wants a patient to know that being thought of outside of visits it is ok to say only that. "You are in my thoughts" or "I thought about you the other day."

There is no need to say anymore than that. Openly offering prayer is step over the line. It imposes your faith and invades the patient's privacy on a level beyond mere physical treament.

Tam (a recovering baptist)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:45 AM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "I think that doctors and nurses *are* working in a spiritual welfare industry every single moment of their working lives.

The mind is as important as the body, in some cases even more so, and I seem to recall this nurse saying something about taking the whole person into account, not just 'the medical problem'...and here it is".

Spiritual welfare or mental well-being? The mind is certainly as important as the body (I made a point about positive thinking with regards to recovery in my very first post on this thread), but the mind isn't necessarily the same thing as the soul. 'Soul' and 'spiritual well-being' has a completely different set of connotations to that of 'mind' and 'mental well-being'.

Do people really confuse the likes of psychiatrists and psychologists with nuns and priests?


"The problem is Political Correctness has made it a 'scientific' industry only now. What a bloody loss!"

To be honest, I find that sentence a little frightening. I'd hope that the practice of medicine was only a scientific industry. Bedside manner and pastoral care &c. maybe good things but they aren't the practice of medicine per se. The two things shouldn't be confused even if you see the pastoral care as complimenting the practice of medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

She wasn't 'bringing religion into the equation' Will, she was standing there spouting the Bible or making the sign of the cross etc...she simply offered a prayer.

Nurse Caroline Petrie speaks out


As I said, a bloody good nurse!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 09:04 AM

The Spirit often conquers Science, over and again, olafr.

I am living proof of that.

Had my two experiences been the other way round, there would only have been ONE experience, for if I had been treated so 'scientifically' at the beginning, by that second group of people who did things totally 'by the book' I would never have gone on to hold my newborn son in my arms 4 years later, against so many medical odds.

It was that Dr. Dubbins belief in me, which gave me my own self belief.

The Nun can often give life where the Scientist cannot, because she brings Love and Hope into the equation. Mother Theresa of Calcutta was a prime example of that.

When the Spirit is connected up with the Science then you have a far more powerful solution.

Science alone can sometimes kill, because it will not allow Love to enter into its 'equation'.


I would far rather be treated by Nurse Caroline Petrie than by those who do their jobs by the book, treating only the wounds or illnesses of the body, whilst choosing to ignore the wounds and illnesses of the heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 09:06 AM

"..she was standing there spouting the Bible.."

Oops, she *wasn't* standing there.......etc :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 09:29 AM

she simply offered a prayer

Exactly - which she shouldn't have done. I've no doubt she was being kind, caring, efficient, etc. - but she wasn't being sensitive and she was breaking the rules of her job. Here's a comment from another forum on this same news item:

"I was in hospital over Christmas - the hospital was a non-religious institution. During my stay there:

1. A nurse wrote on the whiteboard in my room 'A saviour is born'.
2. Santa Claus stopped by and handed me a little plastic church.
3. I am Jewish."

See what I mean? How on earth would any visiting nurse necessarily know the "wounds and illnesses" of my heart or anyone else's? And how would they know how to ease them? And why should it be prayer that is the appropriate treatment, for example?

Let's turn it round: I would rather be treated by a humourless pedant who was an expert in his or her job - and cured me - than by anyone who wasn't an expert, regardless of their religious persuasion, moral fervour or sunny disposish.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM

..Nurse Petrie said, "I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them.

One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer. But, that really isn't the issue. She broke a rule and went against the first warning. BY her own admission she does this as s standard thing and that, to me, is a form of proselytising.

Nurses do not have to be this overt with their own beliefs AND can be full of compassion, empathy, and TLC (tender loving care) without ever offending in this or any other non-medical way.

I, too, have benefited greatly from Mudcatters' and others prayers, but they were actively sought by me or on my behalf and they came from people whom I know, love, and care about in return. BIG difference, imo.

When I was in hospital for the new heart valve, none of the nurses did anything like this, and it was in a hospital owned and operated by nuns of the Roman Catholic Church! There was a chaplain on duty and I did ask for her the first night after surgery. When she came in, I told her I was a non-Christian metaphysician and just needed some positive "re-enforcement." The comfort, support, and reassurance she offered me was what got me through a very terrible night. The next night I watched/listened to an in-house tv channel which was ALL affirmations, meditations, and soothing music. I couldn't believe how non-denominational it all was, in fact, how non-religious it was...in a Catholic hospital! It was respectful and wonderful and available to anyone, BUT not pushed in anyway, in fact I only discovered it by flipping through channels.

I am sure if the patient wanted prayers, she would know who to ask for them etc. The nurse needs to learn to not offer unless asked, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "The Spirit often conquers Science, over and again, olafr. I am living proof of that".

Firstly, I should reiterate the fact that I have religious belief, it's patently not yours - horses for courses and all that :) - so I do at least appreciate some of the things that you and Georgiansilver are saying. Again, I'm also very interested in Forteana and believe that the 'unlikely' and 'impossible' sometimes do happen. Also, despite what you might think, I'm actually a pretty caring and considerate person: I'm not a monster!

I'm just quite careful to as best distinguish between concepts like mind, soul, mental health and spiritual well-being when religion is a factor.


Had my two experiences been the other way round, there would only have been ONE experience, for if I had been treated so 'scientifically' at the beginning, by that second group of people who did things totally 'by the book' I would never have gone on to hold my newborn son in my arms 4 years later, against so many medical odds.

It was that Dr. Dubbins belief in me, which gave me my own self belief.

The Nun can often give life where the Scientist cannot, because she brings Love and Hope into the equation. Mother Theresa of Calcutta was a prime example of that.

When the Spirit is connected up with the Science then you have a far more powerful solution.

I'm not convinced because the power of 'positive thinking' is not the same thing as religiously motivated prayer. I believe positive thinking is a valuable tool in recovery but it's silly to think that the two things are synonymous. This thread is evidence of that. In the right situation religious prayer or motivated thinking might help, however in the wrong situation the same can create exactly the opposite effect if it's not wanted or uncalled for: bad feeling and negativity.

Also, objectively speaking, none of us have any real genuine way of knowing whether religious intervention actually makes a difference in healing. How do we know other than 'faith'? How do we know that the healing wouldn't have happened anyway, even unexpectedly? Unless we have two separate 'time lines' to compare against - one with alleged religious intervention and one without - then we objectively have no way of really knowing. As it stands, it's a mixture of faith and confirmation bias.

Science alone can sometimes kill, because it will not allow Love to enter into its 'equation'.

True. However, for the sake of balance, so can religion alone. Also, there's far, far, far more examples of clinical (in the cold sense of the word) medicine healing people that people being 'loved' or 'prayed' to good health.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM

I keep my belief system very personal. Much prefer to try and walk the walk instead of talking the talk. Many people Christians and others can - at times - discuss belief systems when it is not invited or not wanted by others. Likewise there are those who simply hate people of faith and will do anything to "get back at them" for their belief system.   You see to me God is much better than anything I can do to change someones heart. I put it in his hands and find no need to convert anyone to anything. They have the power to choose or reject. The free will thing I think is really important. Frankly I would just add him to my prayer list and leave it at that. You see she has the right to pray for someone on her own and doesn't need to bring it to the workplace or anywhere else unless the patient requests.   

Every hospital I have been in, and believe me I have had my share of hospital surgeries and hospital stays. I requested a priest to visit so no one needed to ask me. However, knowing my faith on file with my medical history, if a nurse asked me I would say sure that is wonderful - medical documents already have that on the record. Likewise if someone does not wish, it is probably on their file. No doubt her intention is good, but if it makes someone feel uncomfortable then leave it in Gods hands I guess and do it at home on your own like I would. My take anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 11:47 AM

When someone asks me - and it has happened - if I'd like them to 'pray with me', I say No, thanks. Perhaps because I grew up with 'silent prayer', I don't know.

If someone asks me if I minded that they pray FOR me -which too has happened- I say, Thanks, couldn't hurt!

On the other hand, if I came to know that a nurse or a friend or whoever started out each day with the prayer that they do the best they are capable of for everyone they meet that day, I would be touched and respectful.

I am lways taken aback when someone says, upon narrowly escaping harm in an event where others died, 'The Lord was with me'.

What? The Lord wasn't with anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:13 PM

"One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer"

I didn't, Kat. Until I was sick, I thought it was all bollocks, but it was the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power.

For the love of God (pun intended), why would anyone feel offended, threatened, or otherwise pissed-off just because another human being cared enough about someone who was suffering to ask the God that person believed in to intercede on behalf of the sufferer? As Ebbie says, what possible harm could it do?

It's another 'Mountains and Molehills' politically-correct, tabloid-inflamed, total nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM

This is wonderful news for all the people who subscribe this brand of faith.

Without the key element of claiming to be attacked by secular humanists, this brand of Christianity would would have no grist for their mill.

Avenging attacks by the godless hoard, enlivens the spirit and emotion of hate and revenge. Having enimies is crucial for their existence and growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

Katlaughing..... >>>>>>Nurse Petrie said, "I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them.

One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer. But, that really isn't the issue. She broke a rule and went against the first warning. BY her own admission she does this as s standard thing and that, to me, is a form of proselytising.<<<<<<<<<.
You say... "one thing she must realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believes in the power of prayer". I say On the contrary. Both Biblically, during Jesus Ministry and ever since... miracles are performed by God when Christians pray for others who do not necessarily believe in the power of prayer or in Gods existence even. The person receiving the healing does not have to believe.

You also say "By her own admission she does this as a standard thing and that, to me is a form of proselytising"
And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer and she is not seeking anything other than a miraculous healing....... for which she would claim no Glory if the person was healed.....
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

Georgiansilver wrote: "And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer"

There lies the rub. It might be her Christian duty, but it's not her nurse's duty. She was there in the capacity of being a nurse, not a well-meaning Christian. She's not employed to do her Christian duty, simple as that.

If she needs some outlet where she needs to express her Christianity doing good deeds, I think she's best either changing jobs or doing some religious-based charity work where combining her personal beliefs and the remit of her job isn't an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:44 PM

Regardless of faith, this nurse was employed as a community nurse by the local primary care trust.

As an employee, entering into the patient's house under the invitation surrounding her employment, she has to abide by the equality scheme her employer is obliged to hold.

the rights, wrongs or indifferences are immaterial, she has been trained to know better than to offer to pray for a patient.

This debate was had back in the 1950's. To offer to pray can be seen by a patient as a clinical prognosis, either that the condition is terminal or that prayer is clinically effective.

The NHS can only work to methods where clinical evidence exists. It was grossly irresponsible for the nurse to offer to pray. The fact that this distressed the patient enough to complain says it all.

I used to chair an NHS primary care trust and if it were my trust, I would expect my chief executive to take this very seriously. Whilst the nurse meant well, it had an adverse effect on the patient. This is why there are rules about what you say whilst carrying out your duties.

It is nothing about types of religion. It is about objective carrying out of your duties as per your terms of employment. If religion had a place in medicine, there would be many problems with availability of clinicians. Fortunately, clinicians keep their religion at home and not in the workplace. The number of Muslim doctors in the UK for instance is in the thousands. If religion crept into healthcare, many of these people would feel uncomfortable having close contact with patients of the opposite sex. As religion is kept at home, those discomforts do not apply.

So, a story regarding preventing somebody from praying needs a close look at all the facts and connotations before leaping to conclusions. This nurse did something her employer does not allow, a distressed patient complained and the nurse is being disciplined.

The system works then.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

I read the story this morning, and noted that the patient had not made any complaint. But also that the nurse did not offer where she thought the patient might be of another faith - that worried me. Does she not pray for them, then?
I did feel things had got a bit extreme, but a lot depends on how she asked.

In addition, thanks to Rapunzel for posting the standards code - I need that for a different issue, but one in which the nurse's own views were imposed on someone. Inappropriately.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM

wyrdolafr.. your post states:-
>>>>>>Georgiansilver wrote: "And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer"

There lies the rub. It might be her Christian duty, but it's not her nurse's duty. She was there in the capacity of being a nurse, not a well-meaning Christian. She's not employed to do her Christian duty, simple as that.

If she needs some outlet where she needs to express her Christianity doing good deeds, I think she's best either changing jobs or doing some religious-based charity work where combining her personal beliefs and the remit of her job isn't an issue.

You use the expression "a well meaning Christian" and I agree with you that is what this woman is...... but if she had been a person who believed that everything should be pristine clean and offered to clean the womans toilet... although it was not her duty to do so.... would there have been a problem? If she was someone who believed that good communication is important and offered to write a letter for the woman or made a phone call for her... again not her duty.... would there have been a problem?

Offering to pray for someone is a charitable thing to do and I admire the woman for offering... she can pray for me if I need healing anytime......... I admire anyone with a generous heart whether it is considered from God or other.....
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: maire-aine
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Tough call here, for me. I somebody wants to pray that I'll be healthy/strong/safe, I'd never turn down that kind of offer. But if they pray that I'll be converted/saved/born again/or otherwise improved-upon, I might not take so well to that. I guess it's all in the delivery.

Maryanne