BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:03 PM

It's not against the law to have an imaginary friend!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

What about people standing on street corners haranguing you for eating meat or wearing leather.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

There are/were at least three other areas where proselytizing are regularly present, without much comment.

1. In hotels/motels you will find the Gideon Bible.

2. When you drop a contribution in your holiday Salvation Army bucket.

3. I don't know if they still do it but on Alaska Airlines I have found a Bible verse and prayer on my food tray.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

Wow! This thread still going at it hammer and tongue?

I have been away for a few days. Thought this would have been dead and dusted.

Mind you, to be fair, we appear to have left the original thread and started another one, this time about religion. I suppose that is a thread with no loose end, and no hard end either.

Just to bring us back to the point.. A nurse was admitted into patients homes, exceeded her duties and has promised to stick to her duty of providing healthcare from now on.

On a Sunday, she sings hymns.

Life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

... Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

One more time, Ron:

No. What they are is rabidly anti-people sticking their goddamn noses in where they aren't wanted and don't belong and/or attempting to foist their beliefs off on vulnerable people..

The religion issue is something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM

A number of key points in your last post Nickhere, that I differ with.
I'll reply properly later, when I've got more time to respond in better detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:45 AM

Ron - Mr Beard's comment was not an assault - it was an opinion. Your comment about Beard's childhood is pretty close to being an ad hominem attack. If you can't tell the difference, that's a bit of a worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:07 PM

I would say that claiming that an offer to pray is a "violation" of anything is a rather nasty assault, with no basis whatsoever, on huge numbers of people. But don't worry, I don't expect agreement--especially from Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

And as I've said, I'm not religious in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Sleepy Rosie, I'm not nurse Petrie, so I don't know what her exact intentions were other than what she says. Of course, she may have a hidden agenda we know nothing about and that she has lied about - either through commission or omission.

As for having the spiritual power to intercede, perhaps. It's possible some Christians believe this, and perhaps nurse Petrie believes this to. But 1) this idea is not limited to Christianity - you'll find similar ideas among believers in many religions, and I have found it in Wicca as well, the idea that the high priest or indeed coven could alter the course of nature on behalf of themselves or others. 2) If I have understood your post correctly, you are saying that for a person to claim, or believe, they have some kind of intercessory powers with the Divine / spirit world, is a bad thing. I would argue that it is not, a priori, a bad thing. It would depend on what end that intercession was put to. If put to good, we might be glad of the intercession. For example, I doubt there is anyone here on Mudcat who would not be glad of a kindly word in our favour in the judge's ear from someone whose opinion the judge respects, before our trial if we were unfortunate enough to be in trouble with the law.


And so with nature - if someone could cure me of my physical ills through a formula of words and without any monetary cost to myself, I'd be foolish to turn it down.

But there's another issue as well. Your 'cynical take on how the conversation goes' basically implies or states that there is a kind of charlatanism at work in nurse Petrie. In your account the nurse gives normal medical attention, says a prayer, nature takes it course, the sores get better - 'lo and behold!' says nurse Petrie - 'prayer works!!'

I don't see that that was what nurse Petrie was trying to do. And supposing she was, what would be the motive? If she is a charlatan, and knows she is, and that the prayer does nothing but is humbug, what would be the point in 'converting' someone to a set of beliefs you yourself know to be bogus? If there was some monetary gain, it might be possible to explain, but there is no hint in the Petrie case that she was after money. Fame? Perhaps, but how long would her methods stand up under scrutiny before she was unmasked? The only other conclusion is that she is either sincere or mad.

Moreover, I think we would be underestimating the intelligence of the average person if we were to say that one could not discern between the normal slow process of healing and sudden inexplicable 'miraculous' cures.

BTW, my late aunt was one of those quiet Christians beavering away, she was a joy to all who knew her and one of the nicest people you could meet (though she had her small faults like all of us, she was not a saint either!). Though she was not rich in money she was a living example of charitable word and deed, and no one ever left her house hungry, thirsty or cold. Sometimes I wish I could be even just a bit more like her.

On the other hand she never hid the fact of her christianity anymore than she hid the fact that she was on her way to mass or about to say her rosary. She didn't boast about it or anything, she just regarded it as a normal everyday part of her life, as normal as waking and eating or going out to get a few logs for the fire. She would have been very surprised if anyone had told her she shouldn't mention that she was on her way into town to go to mass or whatever. She would have asked "why not?" and would have considered it as odd as hiding the fact you were on your way to pick your car up at the garage.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:09 AM

"we overlook all the 'normal' Christians quietly beavering away at their thing."

Yes, and the reason that we don't hear all the time about Christians doing thier thing. Is because they don't brag about it, or make a song and dance about it. Like Ruth Archers Vicar below, who made sure that she had some groceries in the house, and that she had sufficient arrangements to collect her daughter from school. No strings.

Charity is charity, it's a gift given freely, without expectation of any form of reward or personal recognition.
In *theory* 'christian' charitable behaviour (at least to me) implies that there are no strings attatched, no personal or even religious agendas being furthered and ideally no egos being inflated.

In the instance of this nurse, I noted how pleased she was at seeing what she believed to be evidence of the healing power of her prayer. Now the subtext I read in both the unsolicited offer of praying for people in the first place, and then telling everyone about when it 'worked', is that you are implying that you have the spiritual power to succesfully intercess on their behalf (assuming something of a "Priestly" function in relation to others I feel therefore). Now amongst *peers* within the same religion, that's not my business. But in the case of unsolicited offers of prayer from a professional to an otherwise non religious person, you are placing yourself in subtle but psychologically powerful position of authority.

Now these may be subtle things, but I feel they are important ones.

So here's my cynical take on how the conversion goes:

Nice nurse enters elderly lady's home to change her dressings.
She kindly offers to pray for her on her way out.
Elderly lady (who may well be lonely) is delighted at such a kind gesture.
Her bed sores (or whatever), are improved the next time the nurse visits!
They are both very impressed and chat about how great it is.
See how wonderful prayer can be!
Of course it's got nothing at all to do with me, say's 'humble' nurse, it's all in Gods hands! Ain't he just the greatest guy!?
The nice nurse leaves some literature on her wonderful form of Christianity for the elderly lady to read...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rapunzel
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM

As long as we can all agree

why should we all agree with you - it's one opinion and we should all be entitled to our own.

For myself, I am a nurse who visits people in their own homes for chronic disease management(not a district nurse). I have also in the past done a degree in theology and worked for awhile at a benedictine monastery. I have my own opinions on the matter, formed by my past and present experience and the terms and conditions of my current employment, but I've followed this thread carefully and although tempted to pass comment I feel now to dare to do so would result in a backlash of personal attack which I could just not deal with.

My point on the poster's childhood--which I of course know nothing about---was that my assertion had as much validity as his that an offer of prayer is a "violation" of anything. Neither assertion has any validity whatsoever.

the difference is, one is an opinion and the other is a direct and nasty personal attack (about something you admittedly know nothing about).

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:08 PM

As long as we can all agree the decision on the nurse, as I've said before, was a victory for common sense. My point on the poster's childhood--which I of course know nothing about---was that my assertion had as much validity as his that an offer of prayer is a "violation" of anything. Neither assertion has any validity whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:45 PM

Yes, I agree, Sleepy Rosie.

Manipulative and cynical behaviour is just that, whoever does it to us. Far and away the biggest offenders in this regard have to be advertisers and the whole advertising industry. One of my favourite lines from John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is "advertising steals a woman's love of her herself and sells it back to her for the price of the product"

I suppose some of the evangelical Christians are so convinced of the rightness of their cause and the urgency for doing it, that they forget people need to approach God freely, "without a gun to their heads". That, and of course, the unscrupulous ones who've used evangelism and people's gullibility to rake in a fortune and live it up in style.

I believe these are actually in the minority but their actions are so flabbergasting when exposed that we overlook all the 'normal' Christians quietly beavering away at their thing.

And you'll find charlatans like the money-evangelists in all areas of spirituality and religion - for exampe, pick up any occult review magazine and there are pages and pages of ads promising you love, money, the world, the AMAZING secret of the SECRET stone of GOBBLEDIGOOK, yours for only 9.99 dollars! As well as spurious fortune tellers that will advise you on your life over the phone (they don't even need to meet you in person and the cheque can be sent through the post / we accept VISA etc.,) but won't be round to bail you out when their 'advice' (most of which consists of what are called Barnum statements such as you find on personality tests e.g "you have a deep desire to help people" / "you may be feeling under pressure concerning a person in a position of authority" / "a problem shared is a problem halved") goes horribly wrong.

I've had some personal experience of the above.


For more see -

The Psychobabble link

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

In fact it's horrible that some Christian groups by their cynical abuse of good nature, and our faith in the image of 'the good Christian' should sully what is indeed a highly good thing.

I recall recieving a shock one day at work some years ago, and leaving in distress. I recall crying, alone on a street pavement as busy traffic whizzed past...

To my surprise a genuinely well meaning lady stopped and asked in concern if I was alright.
We chatted, I calmed down and regained my composure.
She never said it, but I could tell full well by her entire manner that she was a genuine Christian (noun) - by her christian (adjective) behaviour... With or without the little gold crucifix that she also happened to be wearing.

"Christian is as christian does", with or without a big C, and I believe preferably without cynically veiled techniques of evangelism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Nickhere, I do not take issue that we are in a most unfortunate and unpleasant predicament concerning our better natures, and our perfectly right and natural human inclination to wish to think the best of kind, generous and neighbourly gestures.

I think what makes certain areas where we might otherwise be guided by natural inclination or if you will 'common sense' so immensely difficult and therefore requiring legislation and strict guidelines, is where we have knowledge from experience and evidence, that certain individuals and groups (some of which are religious) knowingly and consciously use those innocent human feelings against us, in order to cynically further their own agenda.

Personally I don't care whether it's a life insurance salesman pressuring a conscientious husband, a 'timeshare' crook targeting an elderly couples pension fund, a double glazing salesman who won't leave till a young Mum signs his form, or an evangelical Christian who is 'kindly' offers to pray for you... They've all been to the same seminar on how to hoodwink and decieve people, how to get their foot into the door and then how to maximise their leverage over you by making the most of your gullabillity. It's all the same cynical abuse of good nature and our unguarded better instincts.

In fact I agree with Ron Davis below, much as I am not a fan of some of his other comments. It's not 'religion' per se that is at fault, but the abuse of religion. And it's the cynical agendas of a minority of Christians, who take advantage of our 'common sense' instincts, who give Christianity and Christians a bad bloody name IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:11 PM

Regarding the foster mother, it seems to me that a main problem is the tendency to apply laws rather literally. What I mean by that is, that thanks to moral and post-modern relativism, it has become impossible to apply rules on the basis of what used to be termed 'common sense' and lateral thinking.

Unable to discriminate, those in authority seem to have no choice but apply rules as if they were unthinking automatons, which means invariably there will be absurd judgements made in cases where the rules - and human wisdom - did not anticipate every last eventuality. And where we do try and anticipate such things, it leads to a morass of laws and 'principles' that often contradict or clash with each other. To me, it seems a classic case of living by the letter of the law rather than by the spirit of the law.

There's a very good example of this in the New Testament where the pharisees (who were also responsible for enforcing the dozens of rules and regulations that emanated from the Mosaic law and Deuteronomy) got very cross with Jesus because he healed a blind man on the Sabbath. The rules stated clearly that no work was to be done on the Sabbath, and healing was considered to be work.

They couldn't see the charity that had been performed, they just had a kind of slavish obedience to 'the rules' - rules which after all, had been created in the first place because humanity was finding it so difficult to get a handle on the more holistic principles that underpinned them.

In otherwords, if humanity can't regulate itself through awareness of and voluntary adherence to the basic charitable spirit it is going to need specific rules and sub-rules and sub-sections of sub-rules spelled out and codified.

Afterall we wouldn't really even need rules if everyone voluntarily adhered to the guiding principle 'love your neighbour as yourself' [there was another, critically important part to that guiding principle that I won't post here out of deference to all other 'Catters, but anyone who wants to know what it is can PM me)

The poor unfortunate man would have had to come back another day because the rules said so and 'the office was closed'.

(Discrimination, despite the negative connotations this word seems to have acquired, is not always a bad thing: e.g we discriminate between mushrooms that are safe to eat and those that are not and would be foolish to do otherwise)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:23 AM

My last post crossed paths with IB's below. But I too found those personal comments innapropriate. Along with prior ones directed at another poster earlier down the thread. Who has since not contributed...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:21 AM

"Unfortunately, it doesn't speak well for the poster that he has such a crabbed, blinkered, cynical view of human nature as to describe normal kindness as a "violation". I'm sorry he had such a wretched childhood."

This is a really uneccesarry descent into irrational and unfounded personal attack on this thread. Again!

Anyway as to "crabbed, cynical views" of intentionally cynical evangelical Christian methods of evangelism (as opposed to normal non-cultish human behaviour) and those who should not be allowed to indulge such underhand methods with the vulnerable, here's that quote referred to below, offering practical guidance on how to go about converting mentally vulnerable people, by getting close to them and pretending to be their friend:

"Rev. Cory Kloth, writing about "Methods of Evangelism" for Meshereth Magazine:

    [E]vangelism takes place through personal relationship. ... Every relationship that God puts us in should be geared toward sharing the gospel. ... Let me give an example of how this works in extended relationships: when I was in seminary, working as a chemist while going to school, I had a co-worker who had experienced severe emotional trauma in his life. I met him and found out quickly that he loved NASCAR. Now, I could care less about NASCAR, but I became fluent in the subject so that avenues of communication would be open (avenues that I would then use to share the Gospel over time). I was in constant prayer for this fellow, praying specifically that God would convert him before I finished seminary, and He was gracious enough to do so. This example is just one of many ways how we can "become all things to all men." "

Evangelical Christians (unlike most faiths) are expected to convert. And yes, I'm cynical. They target the vulnerable, the depressed, the lonely and the elderly as easy pickings. I've seen it happen with people who are mentally ill, in hospital after a drugs overdose when a boyfriend left them for example. Who after receiving visits while they are in a weak state of mine, come out 'saved'.

And for the record (again), I myself am not rabidly anti-religion or anti-Christianity. I find much of both interest, inspiration and beauty in say, the writings of Christian Mystics and Saints (as well as the Tantras and Vedas, the poetry of Rumi, the Gnostic Gospels etc.) including works like 'The Cloud of Unknowing', or Meister Eckharts 'Treatises and Sermons', or 'In Imitation of Christ' by Thomas a Kempis, or Bunyans 'The Pilgrims Progress', 'Revelations of Divine Love' by Julian of Norwich and on it goes... And I will take a wild random guess, that the "blind, rabidly anti-religion" poster with the tragic childhood, is no doubt better studied in classic literature of similar kind, than most blind dogmatic evangelical types would ever wish to be.

PS Richard Bridge, I think you've got a fan club forming here... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

here

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM

The foster mother mentioned by Keith A of Hertford has been banned by her local council for failing to prevent the teenager from getting baptised, she has lost her home and another child she fosters has been taken back into care - what a mess!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:58 AM

"An offer to pray represents a very real violation of another persons right to diversity and dignity. That this violation was not only committed by a health worker but in the home of patient amounts to a serious abuse of a professional privilege in the place where a person really ought to feel at their safest."


You know, the world is kinda falling to pieces at present. Perhaps it's falling to pieces because everyone has become so damned introspective and up their own arses about things which TRULY do NOT matter, that those with other agendas have crept in and taken so much of what we once had in this world.

It's clever. You create a society where basically no one trusts anyone else anymore, you make them imagine ulterior motives in absolutely everything, everywhere, create an Age of Suspicion...and guess what?   Not a soul notices or cares very much when planes get blown up, or banks run out of money, or we bail them out whilst they pay themselves millions in bonuses, or people are starving to death on one side of the planet, whilst dying from over-eating on the other, whilst children go into schools with guns and mow each other down, whilst a whole generation of young people become alcoholics, whilst our young girls have turned into hookers...

Nope...it's FAR more important to discuss ad infinitum the (apparently) 'true EVILS' of a an 'EVIL' woman who dressed up in Nurse's clothing to deliver her 'hidden agenda' of terrifying old people in their own homes, holding them ransom until they read that damned prayer card and signed on the dotted line, so that she could report back to Headquarters that another Convert had been found...

Geez, people! Get your heads out of your arses and open your eyes to what REALLY matters in this world and see what PC has done to your minds and to the world in general!

Try creating an Age of Trust and leave your Age of Suspicion far behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

You may not believe it, but thousands would.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:36 AM

A new case has arisen.
A foster mother has been struck off the register because she is an Anglican and a teenage fosterchild has converted from Islam to Chritianity.
The woman insists that she did not encourage the girl.
I do not believe there would be an issue if a christian child took up Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM

Some people may find this interesting. Apparantly evangelists actually see prayer on behalf of others, as a fundamental aspect of their mission to convert.

Evangelism and Prayer

In fact I was looking for material on the role of 'healing' prayer in evangelical Christianity. But I just kept finding pages about the importance of praying for people in order to convert them...

And for those who still believe that 'just a prayer' is quite innocent, and in no way an isidious, underhanded tactic for promoting their evangelical mission to convert others, an interesting quote from Rev. Cory Kloth in Meshereth Magazine, might be illuminating:

Methods of Evangelism

I'm with Diane on this, I don't like hawkers of any kind of unsolicited tat knocking on my door. I think I'm going to put up one of those 'No Hawkers' type messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:06 AM

"....sheer effrontery..."   My instincts let me down. Mea culpa.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:36 AM

An offer to pray is not an offer to burn one at the stake! OK people?!?!

An offer to pray represents a very real violation of another persons right to diversity and dignity. That this violation was not only committed by a health worker but in the home of patient amounts to a serious abuse of a professional privilege in the place where a person really ought to feel at their safest. To quote from Guardian.co.uk:

Petrie, a Baptist..., said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her. She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

How can the leaving of prayer cards and offering to prayer be anything other than a forcing of beliefs? Especially as, by her admission, Ms Petrie regards such supernatural mumbo-jumbo as an important part of her job - indeed, this is not the first time she has been disciplined in this respect. That she has been since reinstated seems a fair indication that, as has been suggested elsewhere on this thread, things are very rotten, or else very desperate, somewhere.

For further reading I suggest the NMC Code of Conduct which this person is duty bound to abide by however so inconvenient it might be to her Christian mission.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:58 PM

I think my favorite post about this was the one where doorbell ringers got blamed for interrupting sex. I don't even know if it was this thread or the other one, but if the sex ain't great enough to ignore the doorbell, that ain't the visitors' fault! :~)

It's a basic healthy-boundary issue-- if someone rings your bell and you do not want company, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER THE BELL. If someone asks if you want them to pray, and you don't, YOU JUST TELL THEM.

And then, unless your boundaries aren't too healthy yet, you let it go! :~)

Repeat after me: An offer to pray is not an offer to burn one at the stake! OK people?!?!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:52 PM

It was reasonable for the nurse to ask the question because some people derive comfort from prayer and would welcome it. And if not, they can always decline. No harm done--except in the overheated imaginations of some Mudcatters. In fact the woman in question was not put out by the request.

It seems that very few people are. Certainly not most of the people who have actually had serious health problems.

Actually it appears that the only ones who are offended and shocked by the shear effrontery of such a question are, for instance, charmers whose normal greeting for unexpected visitors is "Fuck off" .

Wonderful role models for us all, it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM

Is that El Teds true path... flamenco? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM

The very next time a pair (aren't they always in duplicate) of those proselytising halfwits ventures up my path, I shall order a lorryload of War Cries, Watchtowers and bibles for the woodburner. That should help reduce the fuel bills.

In fact they could extend this delivery service to any sick and needy people that are supposed to be caring for. Infinitely more useful than stuffing their heads with threats of hellfire and damnation unless they sign up for "the true path".

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:15 PM

Diane doesn't care... she just loves being nasty to people... look at some of the threads she has contributed to...... love you Diane LOL....she has her own kind of energy anyway!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:48 PM

Diane, whoah! Easy there! Even if your new prospective energy supplier is offering you cheaper, cleaner energy?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM

Ron Davies:
It was reasonable for her to ask the question.

With respect, Ron - that's the whole crux of the argument. In my view, it wasn't. Just my ten-pennorth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM

Religious nutters and those who want me to switch energy supplier get exactly the same short shrift if they come to the door:

Fuck off and close the gate after you.

Absolutely no discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM

1) The nurse did not "stick her nose" where it was not wanted.   That's the case in point. She took "no" for an answer. It was reasonable for her to ask the question. Often the answer she probably gets is "yes".

And as Richard has pointed out, there is no legal case against her.


Any reference to people knocking on doors trying to convert the poster is a classic red herring. And tends to support the idea that the poster is rabidly anti-religion. Reasonable people should realize that sort of visit is the price you pay for living in the West--and maybe elsewhere.   And take it in stride.   It probably happens to most Mudcatters--and most do not have the sort of exaggerated reaction of the poster--unless there is something earlier in life which influences the reaction.

There is in fact no reason the nurse should ever have become an issue.

2)    There is one Mudcatter who ascribes all the ills of the world to religion--those that are not due to Mexicans.

3)   Where it is not considered good form to mock people on ethnic or sexual proclivity grounds--nor should it be--it is considered good fun on Mudcat to constantly mock the religious.   

4)   Virtually none of the anti-religion Mudcatters--of which there are many---acknowledge any good done by religion or religious people. These Mudcatters seem to have a special ax to grind against Christians. An amazing number of Mudcatters refuse to see that the "harm done by religion" is in fact done by abuse of religion.

If this is not so, let's see some acknowledgment of the good some religion--Christianity even-- has done--from some of the people who criticized the nurse.



As I pointed out earlier, it's certainly good that most of the fervently anti-religion Mudcatters are not from the US---since it's that attitude which dramatically strengthened the rabid Right in the US--and likely made the difference in the 2004 election. In the UK it has nowhere near as serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM

When I was in the local post-surgery ward just before Christmas, a trio of schoolgirl violinists came in, set up their music stands and played some nice tunes. They told me the only one I didn't recognise was French, but all were Christmas carols; sans words and dancing, but carols all the same. They apparently had the approval of the authorities but were not supervised directly and I know for certain their audience contained some atheists.

Perhaps it's just as well they were celebrating rather than engaging in any other type of activity. BTW, they were very well received by all and sundry.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM

Glad you're feeling better Micca! I have a close relative in hospital at the moment as well, and it's tough seeing someone so sick, you want to do all you can to help them.

Just one tiny thing though, speaking for myself anyway - you mentioned "My God is better than your Goddess and therefore, because I have a hot line to the On High, I can save you/ease your pain/ help/ where you are powerless"

Speaking for myself, that wouldn't be my motive in offering to pray for someone's physical recovery if I made such an offer. As for being powerless, I am just as powerless as the next person, regardless of who or what my 'god' is. I don't think any real Christian thinks of themselves as being any better than anyone else; I and quite a few that I know in fact seem to think the opposite, are sharply aware of how we don't measure up to the ideal we would like to.

I humbly suggest that as you said "This MAY not be what is meant but is how I perceive the offer "to pray for me"
In other words, it IS a perception rather than necessarily a fact. Earlier on I mentioned my reaction should a Wiccan offer to chant (is 'pray' the correct word? I forget - I did dabble many years ago, right up to setting up my own coven). In short the intention is important. If a Wiccan came in 'in good faith' so to speak, to do me a good turn by saying whatever incantation they thought beneficial, I would politely decline but thank them for their kind thoughts. I don't subscribe to their beliefs anymore but would be able to appreciate the kindness anyway.

On the other hand, should a Wiccan come in to chant over me for the primary purpose of 'showing off' or imposing on me (for want of a better way of explaining it) I think I would be able to detect the tone and would be less than pleased. Not so much with the Wiccan but with the manner in which things were being done. I would be just as unhappy if any Christian came in and prayed over my head in such a manner. I would just have to hope that God could make the best of a bad case in that latter situation!!

All I'm suggesting is to apply the same kind of discernment to whatever offers of help / prayer / chant are made to you, whatever the belief they spring from is. If you don't feel that someone is out to impose on you, a polite 'no thank you' goes a long way. If it falls on deaf ears, you can be more sure you're dealing with the 'pompous' kind!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Micca
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM

Most of my views on this are contained in the posts I have made in this thread but also many valid points referring to the "invasion of private space by unwanted religious people" is contained Right here, However, one point I have not seen (or maybe I missed it ) is the "Implied" "My God is better than your Goddess and therefore, because I have a hot line to the On High, I can save you/ease your pain/ help/ where you are powerless" This MAY not be what is meant but is how I perceive the offer "to pray for me" I am very disappointed that the Rules did not protect the vulnerable in this case but crumbled to the pressures and blackmail of the Christian pressure groups.
During my recent sojourn in the hospital with a potentially fatal condition I suggested (jokingly) that my friends in a local Coven filed in, in Black robes, with their hoods up and circled my bed chanting. Can you imagine the furore it would have caused, especially if we had offered to extend the "service" to the rest of the ward!!! I almost wish I had been crass and inconsiderate of others "religious sensitivity" and views to do it, But unfortunately I do belive that my religion is just that, "MY Religion" and therefore a private matter between me and the Goddess and I do NOT need strangers (of any religion) to intercede with Their Gods (in whom I may not only NOT believe but in whose methods and morals I may have serious misgivings) To Pray for me. On the other hand folks here on Mudcat that sent good messages of support are , in fact, friends offering very welcome support which I accept in any format(be it Christian, Wiccan,Buddhist, Baptist or whatever) The Difference (viva la difference)is that you all are my friends and are welcome ,very welcome ,in my life. I can also tell you that it (the Mudcat input) is indeed powerful and it WORKS!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:18 PM

Amen to that, Greg. Personally, I love religion (I must do, my favourite TV show right now is Around the World in 80 Faiths) it's just the righteous pomposity I can't hack.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM

Many more can be described as rabidly anti-religion

No. What they are is rabidly anti-people sticking their goddamn noses in where they aren't wanted and don't belong and/or attempting to foist their beliefs off on vulnerable people..

The religion issue is something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM

There is someone (maybe more) who is a Buddhist who posts on Mudcat. He never ever imposes his views on anyone unasked or unwanted.
Which is a lot more than you can say about flamin' Jehovah's Witnesses or assorted fundamentalists hanging about the "caring" professions to prey on (or at the very least harass) the vulnerable.
Or those sodding nuns who nearly scared me to death when I came round in hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

"...attempt at...."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM

Yes, left of center.   Based on the views of people who post on Mudcat, if you count the individuals, not the posts, it is obvious.

Center of course includes the views of people outside Mudcat. The majority of whom, I would venture to say, would support the nurse.

And certainly heavily anti-religion.    Those who say outright they are religious are few--Joe, Georgian Silver, Slag--and not many more.

Some are reasonable about it--like Amos.   Many more can be described as rabidly anti-religion.

I would say that description fits anybody who criticizes the nurse who took "no" for an answer. There was no attempt as proselytizing.

And the legal aspects also support the nurse. As Richard points out, those who wanted to punish the nurse have no legal case.


Also if you want to allege that social workers and pastors think the nurse was wrong, you should also take into account the many descriptions by people who actually were in hospital for a serious operation---Kendall, Jan, and some others.

Even if not religious, these people did not feel in the slightest affronted or threatened by the offer to pray.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM

They turned up at my door at about 10am on New Year's Day! I was still in me jim jams. I was like, "Is this about religion? Oh honey, no..."


New Year's Day! I ask you. I expect they got rather shorter shrift from some of my neighbours...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM

As for religious canvassers...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=115544&messages=126

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

Well I said I wasn't going to contribute to this thread any longer, but the Jehova's Witness banging on my door this morning rather rattled me...
Anyone ever get interupted having breakfast, lazy morning sex, having a lovely bubble bath, or indeed during their morning meditations or prayers at the weekend by these 'nice', 'kind' and blindly patronising and intrusive folk?
Now if only they did Gnostic bath robes, or indeed kinky underwear, I'd bloody well invest in some!

No I don't hate Christians, I just hate proselytisation, by any fecking faith. But most especially via insidious backdoor methods with the elderly, lonely or vulnerable. It sucks, and is as cynical as it is despicable ad IMO immoral.

My fella, who is a practicioner of Zen Buddhism (which btw. has no sense of 'offense' to it's doctrine or founders, or any notion of 'blaphemy') told me today that there is broadly a guidance about 'proselytisation' with Buddhism. If someone who happens to knows you are a Buddhist, and so asks you about Buddhism, you politely change the subject three times. If they continue to ask, only then do you engage in discussion on the subject. There are many reasons why I find that approach admirable.

And for those interested, the nurse in question absolutley intends to continue her mission to heal and save people, check C4 News

Thank the Demiurge for the obvious healing powers of this womans prayer, I usually need to resort to antibiotics in order to swiftly resolve those kinds of inconvenient little infections!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

FFS, Lizzie, read what I have posted before going off on one.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM

Had the nurse persisted

Seems the nurse in question regards calling upon the selective supernatural intervention of a mythical omnipotent deity an essential aspect of her vocational duties and persists in promoting same. The following from guardian.co.uk:

A nurse was suspended after offering to pray for the recovery of an elderly patient, it emerged yesterday. Caroline Petrie, 45, was accused of failing to show a commitment to equality and diversity after the incident and is awaiting the outcome of a disciplinary hearing.

The community nurse, who lives in Weston-super-Mare and carries out home visits, has been suspended by North Somerset primary care trust and could lose her job. Petrie, a Baptist who has two children, said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her.

She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

"I became a Christian 10 years ago after my mother died. My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer.

Petrie said the incident that led to her suspension occurred after she visited a woman in Winscombe in December. She said she asked the woman: "Would you like me to pray for you?" after putting dressings on her legs. The woman replied "No, thank you", and Petrie insists she did not press the matter.

The woman, understood to be in her 70s, is believed to have told the trust about the incident. Petrie was challenged by her superiors.

Petrie said she had been reprimanded over her faith before, in October, when she gave a homemade prayer card to an elderly patient.

She said: "He was delighted with it, but his carer was not."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Mudcat left-of-centre?
Blimey.
Though I suppose it might depend on which bit of the US of A you're viewing it from.
There are vast tracts somewhat south of the Mason-Dixon line where it is commonly believed that Attila The Hun was a pioneer Trotskyist.
And, apparently, where drop-out missionaries rather than highly-trained graduates get appointed as social workers.
Makes me feel almost relieved that I live in Haringey.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

"Mudcat is a left-of center site politically.   This should be obvious."

Do ya think? Oh, so all those posts in praise of the Daily Mail, slagging off immigrants, and full of religious posturing ar IRONIC! Geez, I wish someone had told me!