BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

I was pleased to see that the situation has now been resolved and found the report in Christian Today interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

Little Hawk. The first half of this thread was speaking from someone who does have 'faith' - at least in the spiritual sense. Certainly not some kind of pig-headedness. Unlike many on the thread, I was able to see it from both sides and come to an opinion.

Whereas the last half of this thread wasn't any kind of 'faith' at all - it was based on personal experience and the experiences of a fair amount of people I know. That's not "faith" or "assumptions".

I think you're the one making assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM

AND, Joy has awarded me the 'Silliest Post of the Thread' Award, so the rest of you will have to go suck on a banana or something, I'm afriad, 'cos....I won! :0)

I wonder what St. Francis of Assisi would make of all this.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM

"And no one would mind one way or the other."

Ah, but.....not *necessarily* LOL

After all, you don't know us all, Little Hawk...(sorry, I'm being wickedly mischievious here) :0) That was a good post of yours. I liked that.

It's a funny ol' life these days, where kindness gets you an' all.

Anyway, we'll be OK, so long as no-one offers to pray for anyone, anywhere, ever again. That should solve the problem, I reckons..

Of course, what she should have said is, "Would you like me to tell you what folk music is?" then..there'd have been noooooo problems at all....

Unless of coure, the ol' lady concerned didn't like folk music, in which case....

Uh Oh....................... ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

"You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer."

Well, Little Hawk, unfortunately it is that very "Nurse offering to pray with patients" case cited in the thread title, which forms the fulcrum from which this entre discussion is being generated.
I don't think anyone is assuming perfection here. Just offering the dangers implicit in her case, and why what she did might not be the best of things - especially if officially endorsed, despite her best intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer. Neither am I attacking it. I have no opinion about that incident, because I don't think I know enough about it to have an opinion. I'd have to have been there and know the people involved quite well to have an informed opinion about it.

No, I am just holding a general philosophical discussion about the nature of unquestioning belief in any society, how it works, how blind it is, and how unquestioning most people's faith is in the assumptions they normally go on. You, for instance, wyrdolafr....you have faith so strong and adamant that it's harder than carbon steel. You are rock set in your assumptions...they're just not "religious" assumptions, that's all. They are other assumptions formed on a different set of mental rules, and buttressed by the sort of absolute certainty that makes religious fanatics so hard to deal with.

You find that among the religious. You find it among the non-religious too. They all apparently KNOW that they are right, dead right...and that those who see it another way are wrong, dead wrong. Therein lies their problem. Their problem is their fecking judgemental attitude over other people!

I think you're probably both wrong. I think you're probably ALL wrong in a number of ways, in different ways that you'll never know or admit to. I think that NONE of us here actually knows the whole story or has even begun to. Most people haven't even scratched the surface of life yet, but they think they're in the know about all kinds of subtle things that they have no actual experience or understanding of whatsoever. Most people are about 98% ignorant opinions that they got from someone else and 2% actually in the know about anything from real experience. To admit that to themselves would be very scary. So they form an attitude of absolute certainty about all kinds of stuff they don't really know much about, they become opinionated fanatics, and they spend the rest of their life arguing and fighting with other people who follow a different form of opinionated fanaticism.

It's a big waste of time if you ask me...just like most of the wrangling on this thread.

How can you possibly know whether prayer sometimes works or not? How can you possibly be so arrogant as to imagine that you have any basis for claiming such knowledge? You don't know. You have no way of knowing. You just have another loudmouthed opinion based on a set of facile assumptions that you got somewhere. You're no better in that respect than a religious fanatic is with his loudmouthed opinion based on his set of facile assumptions that he got somewhere. You both deserve each other is what I think.

Let all those among you who are 100% sure that they are RIGHT go off to some island, and you can all fight and kill each other there, and maybe leave the rest of us in peace for a change. It would be nice to be among people who aren't so sure they already know everything. Relaxing. Refreshing. Open to discussion. You could pray. You could not pray. And no one would mind one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

That's the silliest statement I've read on this whole thread. I took the Nightingale Oath when I began my training. It has a phrase that mentions God. There has never been a rule about nurses NOT being allowed to pray -- off duty as Spleen Cringe says. Or even on duty between them and God.

As for the President of the USA. Is he likely to come into my home and change my dressings? WOW! Now there's an image.

Ian Mather another refreshing voice of reason.   

Does anyone else feel as though they're being beaten on the head by a Christian stick? Or is it just me.

Ha! Ha! Lost my job already. Got old! Can't be banned from this discussion! I'll come here if I like. So there!
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Spleen Cringe wrote: "Personally, as a mental health practitioner, I would like to see a day when my services were no longer required".

Pfft! The way cutbacks and restructuring are going, that day might come sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Lovely, Lizzie, for religiously minded nurses to use... when off duty!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM

Warning to ALL nurses. Do NOT enter this site, or indeed read the post at all, if you want to keep your job.   :0)


Nurses Prayers


'I Dedicate Myself To Thee'

I dedicate myself to thee,
0 Lord, my God, this work I undertake
Alone in thy great name, and for thy sake.
In ministering to suffering I would learn
The sympathy that in thy heart did burn.

Take, then, mine eyes, and teach them to perceive
The ablest way each sick one to relieve.
Guide thou my hands, that e'en their touch may prove
The gentleness and aptness born of love.
Bless thou my feet, and while they softly tread
May faces smile on many a sufferer's bed.
Touch thou my lips, guide thou my tongue,
Give me a work in sermon for each one.
Clothe me with patience, strength all tasks to bear,
Crown me with hope and love, which know no fear,
And faith, that coming face to face with death
Shall e'en inspire with joy the dying breath.
All through the arduous day my actions guide,
All through the lonely night watch by my side,
So I shall wake refreshed, with strength to pray,
Work in me, through me, with me, Lord, this day.

:: Author Unknown

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:42 PM

Just realised, I may have appeared to contradict one of my earlier statements.

When I said I had no training in ministering to 'The Soul' I did not include training I took in hands on healing in that. Which I guess, might possibly apply.
Though in my initial post I was thinking in more in terms of Religious Spiritual Ministering, than alternative therapies such as hands on healing.
Despite training some years ago in Spiritual/Energy Healing, I've never formally worked, gained any depth of practical experience, or provided a service in that capacity.

This post is a complete aside and irrelevent to the core of this thread, but I wanted to offer a correction to any seeming contradiction in my prior statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM

Sorry Little Hawk, last time I looked at the NICE guidelines for treatment of schizophrenia, neither prayer nor exorcism were included as evidence-based treatments. Maybe the Cochrane Collaboration could do a systematic review of randomised control trials of driving out demons as a way of treating psychosis...

Just because something was acceptable in the past as a way of attempting to understand the apparently inexplicable, doesn't mean it stands up to modern day scrutiny. Blood letting, knocking chunks out of people's skulls and other barbaric practices are discredited treatments for damned good reasons.

However, I'll agree with you that modern anti-psychotic drugs are still far from perfect. A lot of the people I work with consider them to be a far better option than the torment and misery of untreated psychosis. Even so, most would rather not have to take them and suffer the side effects they can induce. Personally, as a mental health practitioner, I would like to see a day when my services were no longer required. I hope there can be further advances in our understanding of mental illness and other mental distress leading to the development of cleaner, more effective treatments, whether they be drug therapies or talking therapies or something we haven't even thought of yet. In the meantime, thankfully we are looking at recovery focused services rather than mass incarceration... pity the media and a worryingly large section of the general public still think of mental illness in terms of the person who is "experiencing paranoid delusions of some kind and kills some innocent people who are really no threat to him at all and mutilates their bodies" rather than, as is the case in the vast majority of cases, a risk only to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Georgiansilver wrote: "Perhaps if you had read what the Bible says about Jesus and the Blind man... and the lame man..... your understanding would be better. I am sure Jesus prayed for the world when on His own.. but he met the blind man and healed him on the spot... likewise the lame man....
So unless He actually had a premonition or foreknowledge that He was going to meet them... why would He have prayed specifically for them in private?."

I'm familiar enough with the bible to know these stories, please give me some credit! :D

Your point about Jesus not praying in private in these cases isn't quite as logical as you'd probably like to think though. Surely prayer doesn't have to be a 'there and then, in-person' kind of thing? Other-wise, how do so many prayers actually work in the first place? All those church prayers, school assembly prayers, bed time prayers they were done 'remote' and often 'after the fact'.

To bring this more relevant to the thread topic, that's one of the points that makes little sense to me. If prayer works both ways - 'in situ' and 'remote') why would the nurse have wanted to actually pray with someone unless it was some kind of proselytising?

Also, I genuinely mean this with respect, but surely the idea of if Jesus and foreknowledge &c is a bit odd? You know, the son of an omniscient God and all that? Again, I'm honestly not being facetious. Maybe I have more faith in Jesus' abilities or something? I'd have thought that if anyone would know of something in advance and could pray/cure 'remotely', then it would be Jesus.

Perhaps the kind of Christianity I've been exposed to in the past has wrongly hyped up Jesus in that respect. Again, not being facetious, sarcastic or anything - I have my own beliefs and I'm quite conscious of trying to respect other people's in the way I'd like mine to be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

well maybe if the pc brigade had their way

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: pdq
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM

This morning, our new president gave a rousing speach at a prayer breakfast.

He said that our country in under God and that he will use His power to form that fabled "more perfect union".

Essentially, Obama is praying over us without our permission.

Can we expect him to be "suspended pending investigation"?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

Ditto Wyrdolafr! You made the point I was attempting to make, far more effectively and eloquently than I managed to.

Prayer, is in no way automatically benign. And especially where certain psychological disorders are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:49 PM

wyrdolafr...
>>>>>>>>The other point I made and worded badly was that if Jesus is on record as "praying alone at times", then how do you know he wasn't praying for the likes of the blind man or the lame man? Whilst I worded my last post very badly, my point still stands: if he prayed alone or in a private room, then how do you know what or what he wasn't praying about? You don't actually know one way or another<<<<<<<
Perhaps if you had read what the Bible says about Jesus and the Blind man... and the lame man..... your understanding would be better. I am sure Jesus prayed for the world when on His own.. but he met the blind man and healed him on the spot... likewise the lame man....
So unless He actually had a premonition or foreknowledge that He was going to meet them... why would He have prayed specifically for them in private?.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Little Hawk wrote: "5. Pray for them (Almost certainly harmless. Possibly helpful? Not for me to say, is it? Not for you either.)"

I think it is for me to say, sorry. If the patient/service user is actually aware of the praying I couldn't disagree more with the idea of it being "harmless". In fact, I can't think of a way of actually making matters more worse to someone suffering from delusional thinking. The last thing a sufferer of 'positive symptoms' such as delusional thinking or hallucinations needs is to be exposed to the idea that an external, intangible, supernatural force is capable of having some control over their life.

Religion/prayer is never a real positive influence in these kinds of cases. Even when religion has apparently 'saved' someone in these scenarios, invariably what actually happens is not only does it become a crutch but usually there's no real saving, just an exchange and moving from one thing to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

"You can only speak for yourself, Rosie. I'm not asking you to pray if it doesn't make sense to you. I wouldn't ask someone else not to pray if it did make sense to them. In either case, it wouldn't be my business to do that."

Well, precisely.
And neither is it the business of someone hired to provide an essential non-spiritual service, to dabble in unsolicited spiritual ministering.
And ask those they are paid to provide that service to, to pray with them.

I'm not vociferously defending treatments available in the modern day, I think there is - as I said before - a long, long way to go.
But I still think we have also come a long way since the days of "driving out demons".

For what it's worth Little Hawk, I do pray. And as a Gnostic I believe in what works. I also know from personal experience, that spiritual healing can and does work.
But believing what I do about the power of the mind and even spiritual influences, I don't believe in just anyone dabbling in spiritual ministering in quite inaproppriate contexts.

Both my Mother and my Grandmother worked in the caring professions. My grandmother was a senior psychiatric nurse, who was also an extrememely devout Catholic and very serious about her faith.
While my Mother worked as a carer for the disabled and the elderly. And she was also a very good spiritual healer, especially (though not exclusively) with animals, as I can vouch for.

Neither of them blurred the boundaries between their spiritual lives and their work in the caring professions. Both of them kept their personal faiths very much to themselves.
Perhaps I take some of my own feelings on this matter, from their example. Both of them were women who I respect/ed hugely.

I myself even trained as a hands on healer many years ago...
And during the training, we were taught never to impose our unsolicited 'healing' on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Georgiansilver wrote:"wyrdolafr had you read my last post in context .... as a reply to MaineDog, you might well have understood why I made those statements. I suggest you read it through again"

Actually some of the error wasn't so much misunderstanding your post, but phrasing my own badly. When I said you weren't clear on something, I really meant that the bible wasn't too clear, as it seems to be saying "pray alone and don't get too smug and 'hey, guys! Look at me, praying to God!'" about it all as well as it's a Christians duty to pray together when they get together and pray in public for people &c.

I suppose the Christian take on this is 'anytime's a good time to pray' or something rather than one or the other? ;)

The other point I made and worded badly was that if Jesus is on record as "praying alone at times", then how do you know he wasn't praying for the likes of the blind man or the lame man? Whilst I worded my last post very badly, my point still stands: if he prayed alone or in a private room, then how do you know what or what he wasn't praying about? You don't actually know one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

I used to know some people who were ostentatious in their closet praying. They made a big deal of going into the closet to pray. I guess they didn't get the message.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM

Vegetarianism can't include Jello, because Jello is not vegetarian. One of the ingredients is bone marrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

"what treatment is applicable"

Ah! That's always the question, isn't it? Had you been born in another century (either past or present), Sleepy Rosie, I'm sure you'd be vociferously defending whatever treatment method you were most familiar with in that century and which you took for granted. It might be good. It might not.

That is what people have been doing ever since Cro-Magnon Man or even before that. ;-) They've been doing what someone else told them to do.

You can only speak for yourself, Rosie. I'm not asking you to pray if it doesn't make sense to you. I wouldn't ask someone else not to pray if it did make sense to them. In either case, it wouldn't be my business to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:55 PM

Actually multiple personality disorder, is far too specific and indeed not necessarily applicable. I rattled that post off too quickly.

I think a variety of schizaphrenic conditions can result in hallucinations which might be subjectively experienced as - or indeed have been historically attributed to - "possession by Demons".

I don't know enough about mentall illness or it's treatments to engage any more deeply in this discussion, but I do know that there are indeed circumstances where encouraging someone with certain types of psychological disorders to pray to God for help, could potentially make matters far worse rather than better.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

Healthcare in The UK is subject to laws that protect people. This is a good thing as you are vulnerable when you require healthcare.

Also, because it is regulated, it means that you can expect healthcare. You don't have to expect the district nurse to clear your gutters, mow your lawn or help you understand how to operate the video player.

It was asked above if any healthcare professional is on the side of the nurse. I think many people can sympathise with her plight, but I doubt any could condone abusing their position in this way. Leaving prayer cards at the homes of mainly elderly people? She is paid to change dressings, not give communion.

The more I think about it, the more I am glad the PCT have finally decided to do something about it. Patients deserve better.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

I certainly wouldn't invite someone suffering with multiple personality disorder (which is almost certainly the way I personally would interpret a case of "posession by a Demon" to pray *with* me. Neither would I suggest they go on a journey to discover their "Power Animal". In fact - as a lay person - if someone I knew believed they were posessed by a Demon or were evincing behavioural traits which might in the past have been 'diagnosed' as posession by Demons, I'd encourage them to NOT to pray or indulge in ANY kind of introspection that might involve communicating with invisible powers of ANY kind.

I disagree that we are merely using different kinds of language to describe the same stuff. Psychological definintions describing various and vastly differing types of mental disorder are necessary to determine what treatment is applicable. I do think we still have a long way to go in learning about the mind.... An awful long way. But we still have come farther than reducing any kind of symptamology to "Demons" and the treatment of such, by "driving them out"

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM

"a semi-autonomous personality complex split off from the ego as a consequence of trauma"

Yes, that's another possibility. Or...it's another way of verbally describing the situation.

The point is, the person is mentally disturbed, correct? Now, every society (and every person) will find different ways of responding to that. Some of those ways may be helpful, some may be deeply harmful.

Possible ways of responding to a mentally ill or disturbed person:

1. Talk to the person about it. Counsel them. (probably harmless in most cases)
2. Drug them. (a very popular method in our society...often very harmful)
3. Throw them in an asylum and let them rot. (used to be popular not long ago...very harmful)
4. Beat it out of them. (definitely harmful)
5. Pray for them (Almost certainly harmless. Possibly helpful? Not for me to say, is it? Not for you either.)
6. Kill them. (a quick solution in many past societies)
7. Make up your own method if you can come up with one...

My point is, the mentally ill have often been mistreated in most societies, including our own present one. It is very common for horrors to be perpetrated on mentally ill people whether or not they are said to be "possessed by demons". You can look up an example of horror in the one case, I can look up an example of horror in the other case. So what? It proves nothing final about the matter one way or another...it's just one more example of horror in a world that has always seen a great many horrors.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:36 AM

That "Demon" might actually be neither a demon nor merely a bit of negative thinking. It might be a semi-autonomous personality complex split off from the ego as a consequence of trauma. Integration of such complexes through psychotherapy with a clinical psychologist or treatment with another professional mental health-care giver, might really be the thing needed... Can't be buying this "driving out of Demons business", from what little I've heard of cultures which still indulge in such stuff, it's not always that pleasant. And I can't see how it can be anything other than harmful to an already disturbed mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM

wyrdoladfr.... had you read my last post in context .... as a reply to MaineDog, you might well have understood why I made those statements. I suggest you read it through again.
"Where two or more are gathered in his name".. was in answer to Mainedogs statement that Christians should pray alone... I did not suggest it was anything to do with the nurse and her patient.
As for the praying alone or in company... I am totally clear on the matter.. knowing that we do both!...
I did not state that Jesus did not go into a private room to pray.. only not so for the blind and lame man... qualified by saying "he did pray alone at times as all Chistians do .. or should".
Please take the time to read the posts people make and in the context they are written and people won't have to take the time to explain something which may be obvious.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

Regarding "the driving out of demons"...that was a concept in ancient times which, if translated into present terms, would amount to "clearing out deeply negative thoughts and emotional patterns".

For instance, suppose someone is experiencing paranoid delusions of some kind and he kills some innocent people who are really no threat to him at all and he mutilates their bodies...that sort of thing happens in our world, doesn't it?

Okay, in ancient times it would have been assumed that he was possessed by demons. In our time it would have been assumed that he was mentally ill and possessed by negative thoughts that he couldn't control.

What's the difference if you call it "demons" or you call it "mental illness"? It amounts to the same thing in its effect on the person. The only way you can cure such a person is to remove the negative thought forms that are controlling his actions...and that's usually not easy, is it?

Why make a big deal over people in an ancient time once having called negative thought forms "demons"? They were just putting it in terms that made sense to them in their own time. I expert they would think some of the terms you use now are bloody stupid too if they ever got to hear about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM

The passage where Jesus talks about praying in secret (in your closet) obviously has to do with not showboating your piety in an ostentatious manner in public just to impress other people.....it's not an ironclad rule meaning you must always be alone when praying. This should be clear to anyone who pays attention to context while they're reading...but who does that when they are only out to trash something?

"Context? I don't need no steenkin' context! I am not here to think. I am only hear to react and condemn, according to my kneejerk prejudices."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM

Nickhere, in case you are interested: another very influential book, for me, is The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary by Charles Fillmore. Excellent book, imo!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:36 AM

vegetarianism is satanic

Only if it include JELLO

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:25 AM

i don't think she wrong but she could of done it better maybe at a better time

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:04 AM

Are there any:

a) health-care professionals, or
b) clergy

onlist here who believe that what this woman did was a good idea?

Because, those postings proffered from trained and experienced members of both *secular health-care* and *spiritual ministering* professions thus far, have agreed that what this nurse did was deeply unprofessional and incorrect for numerous reasons.

As a lay person, with no training or experience in either ministering to the body or to the soul, I'm inclined to defer authority to those who *do*.
Which is possibly one of the reasons I'd be more inclined to go to a Priest than to my local butcher, if I wanted spiritual aid. And to a Nurse rather than a car mechanic, if I wanted a smear test...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:13 AM

"...in breach of....

It actually seems to show who's a prisoner of a narrow legalistic outlook, and who recognizes that the health care system, government-run or not--(looking at it as an outsider-- this, I gather, was not an NHS situation)--needs as many kind, caring people as possible.

So far, it appears, there is no criticism of the actual quality of her medical attentions.

Just some people who somehow read a threat into her offer to pray.   An offer which, as has been pointed out more than once, was declined--and she then let it rest.

So it is hard to see any harm was done.

And now there are people advocating that this kind, caring individual be prevented from offering any more care.

Evidently since there is such an incredible oversupply of kind, caring people already offering their assistance that this nurse is not needed. It must be nice.




I am certainly glad this did not happen in the US.   If it had, it would have strengthened the "Religious Right" hugely--as did the similarly senseless push to remove 10 Commandments plaques from courthouses. Another situation in which no harm was being done---except to the country when GWB, in great part because of support from the "Religious Right", got in again in 2004.

So then everybody had the joy of GWB for another 4 years. And the whole world suffered.

At least there's no risk of anything like that in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:46 AM

Wow, we get from the medieval bit about praying being compulsory all the way to hospitals being in a disgusting condition.

1) I am glad somebody has brought up the NMC code of conduct. It does show the sections of her professional obligations she is in breach of, and why it is a problem.

2) Hospitals are all in a disgusting condition? You see, this sweeping statement cannot be based on fact, (I am part of the government body that inspects them for hygiene) so I assume it is based on opinion. No problem with that. For years I thought all southern beer was flat and awful. Till I tried some, and then some more and eventually formed a more rounded opinion. (Not to mention the rounded belly...)

The lady who said throw away the rules then if she is in breach of them... Wow, didn't realise anarchists could write so eloquently. Codes of conduct are reviewed regularly anyway.

The fact remains that this nurse enters people's homes for professional reasons and is trusted to do so. Breaking that trust is very serious. Now... if a patient asked her to pray for her, that is another matter because if she agreed, it would be her call to make a judgement as to whether that was appropriate. But to offer is going beyond her brief and as religion is both addictive and powerful to the mind, then introducing it to a patient / clinician contact is reprehensible.

Like everybody else on this forum, I only know the media stories, but if what I have read was all fact, and the only facts presented, then if I were chairing an NMC hearing, I would have no hesitation in considering suspension of registration and a course of retraining. If I was still chairing an NHS trust, I would feel uncomfortable having this nurse visiting patients on her own.

Views on religion do not come in to it. If you are religious, then you are aware of the power of religion to the mind. If you are agnostic, you are also aware (and possibly find disturbing) the power of religion to the mind.

This is why nurses, who care for vulnerable people, are trained to be aware of the power they have over patients and not to abuse that power. Leaving prayer cards goes against her training and professional obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:10 AM

Me above

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:10 AM

"the driving out of demons"

as a mental health practitioner this is the bit that really worried me!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM

Georgiansilver wrote: "It also says that where two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be.... etc etc".

What Christians do together when they get together is up to them. However, when it's not a gathering of Christians, then it's not really up to them as what they want to do might want to take other people who might be around into consideration. 'The nurse in the woman's house' - which sounds like a parable and perhaps there's a lesson for Christians in it - was not a gathering of Christians.


As disciples of Christ, which in essence is what all Christians 'should be' we are called to pray for others....... to follow the example set for us by Jesus himself..... He didn't go into a private room to pray for the blind man or the lame man... or anyone on record although he did pray alone at times which all Christians do... or should.

Which is it, Georgiansilver? Christians should pray alone or they should pray in public? You don't seem particularly clear on the matter.

Also, how would you know Jesus didn't go to a private room to pray? The very definition of "private room" would mean that no one was there to for anyone to know whether he praying or not.

There's almost a Zen koan in there!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:54 AM

Twice I've been on my death bed & they were yrs apart. Both times when asked prior to dying my religon & both times I said none. Both times priests came in & asked if I wanted them to pray with/for me, both times I said no & both times that was it, they left. Both times I thanked them on their way out for their concern & thanked them for respecting my wishes. Had they not, both times they would've been laying next to me on their death beds & neither of us would've been kissing, they wouldn't have been the lucky ones either. They were not the last things I wanted to see in this world when I was dying. Can you imagine, my last view on this earth would be someone religious jerk praying over me, I'd rather be smelling a cesspool & smiling.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:36 AM

MaineDog.... the Bible also says that Christians should pray for others for healing and for the driving out of demons as Jesus and the disciples did. It also says that where two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be.... etc etc. As disciples of Christ, which in essence is what all Christians 'should be' we are called to pray for others....... to follow the example set for us by Jesus himself..... He didn't go into a private room to pray for the blind man or the lame man... or anyone on record although he did pray alone at times which all Christians do... or should.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:36 PM

I'm all for that, MaineDog, but there's one problem. My closet is so full of junk that I can't even get in there, not to pray, not for anything else either. I have considered praying in secret up on my roof...but the crows gather and caw at me! I have considered praying in secret inside the back of my van. I look up and there's a fly on the window watching me! I went to the bank and said I had to open my safety deposit box, they helped me out with that, I went to the little room, locked the door, got down on my knees...and saw that there was a spider up in the corner of the ceiling watching me! I could clean out my closet, I suppose, so as to make room to pray in the fashion that the Lord has advised...but I just know a cockroach or a mouse will emerge from some crack in the wall at the very moment I begin praying and ruin the whole thing.

It's just not fair. I am going to complain to God about it just as soon as I can arrange to be alone somewhere.

I've changed my mind. This thread has its merits.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM

The Bible says that we should pray in our closet, in secret, and then the Lord will rewards us openly. It also suggests that men should not make long repetitive prayers, or for the sake of show, or for the rewards of self-righteous pride. Those who wish to pray for others should consider their own motives and keep these suggestions in mind.

MD

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

LOL Oops. My last post was in response to a point that was made earlier, and I forgot to refresh the thread (having opened it hours ago) before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM

Although I have been told (by some Christians) that vegetarianism is satanic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:18 PM

I'm already ignoring it right now. That's why I'm not writing this - you're only imagining it!!
;-))

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

Not at all. If we ignore this thread, we have time for other things. ;-) Possibly better things.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

Problem is, if we ignore it, it just gets stronger....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM

true