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BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009

Helen 18 Jan 20 - 03:06 PM
Senoufou 18 Jan 20 - 01:43 PM
gillymor 18 Jan 20 - 12:38 PM
gillymor 18 Jan 20 - 12:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Jan 20 - 11:42 AM
Helen 17 Jan 20 - 04:57 PM
Jack Campin 16 Jan 20 - 05:18 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 20 - 04:31 PM
Jack Campin 16 Jan 20 - 11:21 AM
Helen 15 Jan 20 - 03:47 PM
Helen 15 Jan 20 - 02:08 PM
Sandra in Sydney 15 Jan 20 - 06:54 AM
Helen 14 Jan 20 - 02:00 PM
Sandra in Sydney 13 Jan 20 - 03:39 AM
Sandra in Sydney 12 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM
Sandra in Sydney 11 Jan 20 - 04:34 AM
Sandra in Sydney 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 AM
robomatic 08 Jan 20 - 11:47 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 20 - 08:59 PM
Sandra in Sydney 08 Jan 20 - 08:30 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 20 - 05:32 PM
Sandra in Sydney 07 Jan 20 - 10:02 PM
Sandra in Sydney 06 Jan 20 - 07:22 PM
Bruce D 06 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM
Tangledwood 06 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM
Helen 06 Jan 20 - 03:04 PM
Bruce D 04 Jan 20 - 05:04 AM
Helen 04 Jan 20 - 02:54 AM
Sandra in Sydney 03 Jan 20 - 10:59 PM
Sandra in Sydney 03 Jan 20 - 09:42 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jan 20 - 07:04 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jan 20 - 06:33 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jan 20 - 05:51 AM
Bruce D 01 Jan 20 - 03:14 PM
Sandra in Sydney 31 Dec 19 - 09:07 PM
Donuel 31 Dec 19 - 08:49 PM
Donuel 31 Dec 19 - 02:42 PM
robomatic 31 Dec 19 - 02:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 Dec 19 - 08:57 AM
Sandra in Sydney 30 Dec 19 - 06:40 PM
Sandra in Sydney 30 Dec 19 - 02:33 AM
Donuel 29 Dec 19 - 08:05 AM
Sandra in Sydney 29 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM
Jack Campin 29 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM
Mr Red 29 Dec 19 - 05:19 AM
Jack Campin 28 Dec 19 - 08:36 AM
Sandra in Sydney 28 Dec 19 - 08:02 AM
Jack Campin 28 Dec 19 - 06:28 AM
Sandra in Sydney 28 Dec 19 - 05:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 03:06 PM

Thanks everyone for caring about us over here. It means the world to us.

gillymor, all my friends and family are safe. We live in regional cities and some overseas and some more in Sydney. I was going to call it The Big Smoke, but that expression might have to be shelved for a while, I think.

I think all Australians have been overwhelmed by offers of support. To be honest, I personally think we have enough resources to deal with it here and overseas donations should be used for more deserving issues. There are so many other countries or areas in the world with less resources than ours and bigger issues than ours. As well as large countries like the U.S. & Canada, we have even had the very small Pacific countries of Vanuatu and Papua New Guinea offering to help. That's touching.

We pride ourselves on helping others, but when others help us we get embarrassed.

What we do need is politicians who can be bravely honest and face up to reality. The reality of climate change especially but also the reality that volunteer Rural Fire Service people are overstretched and the whole RFS system needs an overhaul to make it workable not just for fighting the fires but for the people giving up their time, using their skills and in most cases losing their income, and in some cases losing their own homes while looking after other people or even losing their lives.

This is probably a wake up call to some who have persistently denied the climate issue in the face of scientific evidence. I've been saying that until the bushfire smoke started to affect Canberra and the state capital cities, some of the pollies would continue to brush off the significance of the bushfires. It appears that I was close to the mark.

When it affects the tennis, well you know it's serious! LOL (I'm not a tennis fan, BTW.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 01:43 PM

I have been watching all this on the TV News for several weeks and find it unbearably sad. Huge sections of Australia seem to be a smoking wasteland, and the contaminated air even choked some top tennis competitors off the court. The poor animals burnt to a cinder, and homes reduced to a pile of black dust.

I think that UK should hold back much of its foreign aid to China and other flourishing places, and divert a large sum to helping Australia rebuild and recover. Our Aussie friends have helped us in the past during Wartime, and we owe them a great deal at the moment.

I do pray for lots of rain to fall asap, but even if it poured this evening, there must be billions of pounds worth of damage to rectify.
God bless Oz!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 12:38 PM

"our Aussie friends", jeesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 12:36 PM

Helen, I hope you and your family and all of are Aussie friends are staying safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 11:42 AM

As Jack suggests, on the news here we have heard mainly from European Australian settlements and nowt on Aboriginal settlements.

Frankly, I've lost touch since studying Pre-Colonial Aboriginal Society and Aborigines and the State in the early 90s but, back then, there were places where the local Aborigines were living partly from hunting and gathering - supplementing their diet via a local store.

Traditionally, of course, they were fully nomadic and would have temporarily moved away from approaching bush fires.

What we have just seen on the news here, pleasingly, is "The drumming of an army - the steady soaking rain" (Dorothea Mackellar in My Country).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 04:57 PM

Jack Campin, I haven't been ignoring your questions: how have Aboriginal communities been affected? What help are they getting?

My first thought was that as far as I can tell from media reports everyone who is affected by the bushfires would have the same access to assistance, but then, a lot of that thought was based on thinking about media reports about how people in the different affected areas have been working together as a community.

Then I had the terrible thought that the prejudices held by some people may not be dislodged just because the community is in dire straits, so reports that the whole community is working together may be misleading if prejudices are still there.

The assistance available is based on individuals or families requesting assistance, and it would probably be administered mostly by white people, so the indigenous communities might be reluctant to ask for help.

I read this article on 6 Jan
Bushfires cut off food supplies to NSW South Coast towns just as Alice needs to feed her full house.

There are a number of bushfire related links on the right hand side of the article and more links after the article, including this one:

First all-Indigenous NSW firefighting crews protecting sacred sites, remote communities

One of the other thoughts I had was that owning a house instead of renting a house would affect the type of assistance available, because if the house was destroyed and was insured, the owner - whether living there or renting it to someone else - would receive an insurance payout. If the house was not insured, that's where I think/hope that the massive donations to charities would kick in and some sort of assistance will be offered. If people are renting the house and it is destroyed, then that is a whole different ball game. If the owner has renting insurance then the tenants could be covered to move into other accommodation, but that assumes that other accommodation is available which hasn't been destroyed by the bushfires. Also, the house contents may or may not have been insured by the people living in the house, which brings up a whole new set of issues. Being insured assumes that the owners or occupants have enough income to spare on insurance premiums which can be hefty.

To complicate the issues even more, all of the bushfires happened outside of major cities, in rural or regional areas. The distance from other unaffected areas is a factor, but also, as I have said before when you look at the bushfire maps you can see that the black areas of where the bushfires had been were starting to join up in some places. The affected areas are huge. That means that the areas where accommodation and services could be available are severely limited.

To give you an idea of the distance between Brisbane and Victoria, which is the length of the area affected by the bushfires, it's 1500 kilometres or about 1000 miles, and that is not counting the bushfires in north east Queensland.

There are going to be delays rebuilding homes, and in the interim, other accommodation is needed. Many people have lost their income because their workplaces have been affected, and in some cases they were isolated because the roads were cut so they could not go to work if it required travel.

I'm hoping that the generous donations coming from around Australia and around the world will be used properly to help everyone in whatever way they need it.

So the quick answer to your questions is, I don't know and it raises some concerns. No easy answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 05:18 PM

Survey from Yale


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 04:31 PM

Goodbye Moon
behind the smoke
goodbye dog
I heard choke

Goodbye little kittens
goodbye florists
Warnings were written
about rain forests

Goodbye green trees
stiff and black
burn in the breeze
Goodbye science attacks

Goodbye fair Oz
and a billion creatures
The stock market
is now Earth's best feature


DH 2020


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:21 AM

Point raised in a Facebook message I've just seen: how have Aboriginal communities been affected? What help are they getting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 03:47 PM

I've been wondering whether the Wollemi pine trees were saved from the bushfire in the Wollemi National Park.

Yay!!

Prehistoric Wollemi pines saved from New South Wales bushfires

The prehistoric Wollemi Pines, which pre-date the dinosaurs, have been saved by a specialist team of remote firefighters from bushfires ravaging the area.

Environment Minister Matt Kean said the trees are in a secret location to avoid contamination and were thought to be extinct before 1994.

"Wollemi National Park is the only place in the world where these trees are found in the wild and, with less than 200 left, we knew we needed to do everything we could to save them," Mr Kean said.

The operation included large air tankers laying fire retardant and specialist firefighters being winched into the remote site by helicopters to set up an irrigation system in the gorge to increase the moisture content of the ground fuels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 02:08 PM

Thanks for the article on the perils of grey nomad camping, Sandra, and the description of the cartoon. Droughts and flooding rains. That's just normal life here.

I've been checking the weather radar so much to watch the rain move towards the fire grounds, the BOM (Bureau of Meteorology) are going to bar me for excess usage. It's "a sight for sore eyes".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 06:54 AM

that's an amazing video, Helen, thanks for posting it. Show why everyone in Australia knows, or should know you don't camp in a dry creek bed

We are the land of droughts & flooding rain - I have a cartoon in my collection

A cow cockie is leaning on the gate talking to his neighbour "The postie bringing me drought relief cheque was drowned in the flood."

translation -
a cow cockie - a small farmer, called a cockie because many raised crops on small blocks of inferior land that flocks of cockatoos (birds) ate
postie = postman
& for our American readers a cheque = check!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 02:00 PM

Pray for rain please, everybody, whatever form your prayers may take, e.g. wishing, hoping, praying, visualising.

This week a lot of the bushfire affected areas are due for a few days of rain. In most cases, the forecasts are for more than just a measly little drizzle. Hopefully enough to quench the fires.

The drought may not get broken yet by this rain but I am sure that the water supply in a lot of areas might be topped up enough to keep everyone, the crops and livestock going for a while.

Last Friday this uplifting article and video appeared:

Rainfall in parched Hunter Valley 'best in years', sees dry Moonan Brook surge back to life

Just be careful because our prayers/wishes/hopes/visualisations need a caveat. We don't want so much rain in one hit that there are flash floods or major floods, so you need to phrase your request to the universe very carefully please folks. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 03:39 AM

Bushfire smoke plume destined to reach Australia again after circling the globe, NASA predicts


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM

Sydney news: Gospers Mountain fire contained & other good news ... Thousands of kilograms of carrots and sweet potatoes have been dropped out of helicopters to endangered brush-tailed rock-wallabies in fire-affected areas of NSW.
Environment Minister Matt Kean said the food drops were part of a major post-fire wildlife recovery effort being delivered across the state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 04:34 AM

Australia burns - in photos 85 Images


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 AM

The bushfires’ path of destruction Before-and-after photos show the deep wounds catastrophic fires can leave in less than a fortnight. (read on)

The truth about Australia's fires-arsonists aren't responsible for many Only about 1 per cent of the land burnt in NSW this bushfire season can be officially attributed to arson, and it is even less in Victoria, the ABC can reveal. (read on)

Fires misinformation being spread through social media

#ItsTheGreensFault That This Story Went Viral Greens Party & friends takes over trolling hashtag

Heartening photos show how the Aussie bush is already regrowing


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 11:47 PM

PBS Newshour just aired an in-depth segment on the fires. It was done very well with a lot of interviews with the people fire fighting and suffering, often both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:59 PM

I used to wonder what happened to ancient civilizations that showed evidence of drought and must have moved away.
Fire has opened my eyes to a more likely explanation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:30 PM

Dictionary definition - Bush : the hinterland, the Outback, anywhere that isn't in town. Northern Americans refer to wildfires.

And 'bush dancing' refers to the dances done outside the cities, tho sometimes google brings in George & his family!

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 05:32 PM

This conflagration is an epic maelstrom of fire along the lines of an astroid impact

The word bushfire doesn't do it. Bushfire sounds like something George does on his ranch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 10:02 PM

Ancient rock art destroyed after walkway explodes in 2018 bushfire It has been revealed that ancient rock art was destroyed after a recycled-plastic walkway intended to protect the site exploded during a bushfire in Carnarvon National Park.

The incident has prompted an archaeologist working with local Indigenous people to call for the removal of all flammable structures at vulnerable sites around the country.

The destruction at Baloon Cave occurred during 2018's devastating Queensland bushfires, but has not been spoken about publicly until now to allow the site's custodians time to come to terms with the loss. (read on)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 07:22 PM

A crisis of underinsurance threatens to scar rural Australia permanently ... For example, a woman who lost her home in Kinglake, northeast of Melbourne, in the 2009 fires, told us how her insurance calculations turned out to bear no resemblance to the actual cost of rebuilding.
"You think okay, this is what I paid for the property," she said. "I think we had about $550,000 on the house, and the contents was maybe $120,000."
It was on these estimates that she and her partner took out insurance. She told us:
    You think sure, yeah, I can rebuild my life with that much money. But nowhere near. Not even close. We wound up with a $700,000 mortgage at the end of rebuilding.
A common issue is that people insure based on their home's market value. But rebuilding is often more expensive.
For one thing there's the need to comply with new building codes, which have been improved to ensure buildings take into account their potential exposure to bushfire ...

Underinsurance significantly increases the chances those who lose their homes will move away and never return — hampering social recovery and resilience. Residents that cannot afford to rebuild will sell their property, with "tree changers" the most likely buyers.
Communities not only lose residents with local knowledge and important skills but also social cohesion.
Research in both Australia and the US suggested this can leave those communities less prepared for future disasters.
This is because a sense of community is vital to individuals' willingness and ability to prepare for and act in a threat situation. A confidence that others will weigh in to help in turn increases people's confidence and ability to prepare and act.
In Whittlesea, for example, residents reported a change in their sense of community cohesion after the Black Saturday fires.
"The newer people coming in," one interviewee told us, "aren't invested like the older people are in the community." ...

For readers outside Australia, a nation of 25m has higher housing costs than one with 327m people, tho our house prices are thru the roof, pricing many people out of home ownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Bruce D
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

Each State has their own, Emergency Services web Page.

Victoria http://emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/#

NSW       https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/

South Australia   https://apps.geohub.sa.gov.au/CFSMap/index.html?appid=d1a5a193e4b14a11acc1415780

Queensland   https://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au/map/Pages/default.aspx

Western Australia https://www.emergency.wa.gov.au/


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Tangledwood
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM

Strange that there is no data for Victoria on that map. Here's one that does include it.
Hotspots


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 03:04 PM

If you haven't checked out the map of the bushfires lately, here is one map:

Weather hazards in Australia

If you scroll in about 4 times around the NSW coast the little fire notification tags take up less room and you can see the black areas which have been burned so far. You will notice that the black areas are starting to join up with each other at the edges or some of the edges are getting very close.

For some reason which I can't fathom there are no fires marked in the state of Victoria but there are definitely fires down there in what is affectionately known as "Mexico".

What you may not realise, if you are not an Aussie, is that the coastal areas of Oz are the best agricultural or forest lands and the majority of Oz is desert.

Take a look at a satellite image of Australia, e.g. in Google maps and look at the greener edges compared with the redder interior of the continent.

If a significantly large proportion of the coastal fringe of Oz is affected by major bushfires then this also significantly affects the capability of farmers to produce food. This is on top of years of drought, so the farms were already struggling prior to the bushfires taking hold. Then, the dryness of the agricultural and forested lands makes the bushfires catch hold even quicker and more catastrophically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Bruce D
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:04 AM

Unluckily, there is a lot of miss-information on what our Federal Government can and is allowed to do under our Constitution.

Emergency Services is an responsibility of each State Government. to get federal Government assistance they need to ask for it. Under our system of government Federal Government cannot step in before assistance is requested. In order the Federal Government to go and buy firefighting aircraft, they would have to Parliament and get approval from the Upper & Lower Houses of Parliament, but they are allowed to give grants to States Government to do the same.

Both NSW and Victoria State Governments waited until the last minute before asking for Federal Government assistance, despite the fact, some of these fires have been burning for months. (The fires on the Central Coast stated mid October and are still burning).

In these types of Emergencies, Defence is not equip to fight fires but they can provide Logistic support when requested by The State Government. In fact according to my Defence sources various Army area commands were told to start preparing personnel and equipment to support the firefighting efforts back in early December.

It is only the Navy who has any numbers of trained firefighters but they are crews on board various ships, (I used to be one and I have fought bushfires in the late 70's 80's on defence lands and the 1994 Bushfires). but in those days we had 1000’s more personnel. And the majority are based in Northern Australia these day and it’s a sign of the low numbers of servicemen is that the Army Reserve has to be called out. And also now the Federal Government with agreement of the States are directing the form and depth of support to assist the fire affected communities.

Neither New South Wales or the Victorian Government are complaining that they haven't received the support from Federal Government.

The people mainly complaining are the media.

BTW, when Scott Morrison when on Holidays left the Deputy Prime Minister as the Acting Prime Minister, at the time there wasn't a state of Emergency declared and neither State Government had asked for any significant assistance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 02:54 AM

An article by Laura Tingle: Are the bushfires
Scott Morrison's Hurricane Katrina moment that he can't live down?

One of the points she makes is:

"To give some scale to what has happened here so far, international media outlets have been reporting the 2018 California fires burnt 2 million acres; the 2019 Amazon fires 2.2 million; and the 2019 Siberian fires 6.7 million.

"So far Australia's 2019/20 fires have burnt 12 million acres."

The whole article is worth reading.

This afternoon our PM Scott Morrison finally announced some practical measures to help people suffering in the catastrophic bushfires. I'm wondering whether Laura Tingle's article, and many other media reports, may finally have pushed him to take some practical action instead of blowing irrelevant hot air about why it is not related to climate change and why it was a bad idea "in hindsight" to tootle off to Hawaii for a family holiday during the crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 10:59 PM

historic water train leaves NSW Rail Museum carrying 10,000 litres of water, equivalent to around 33 fire-trucks. Some of these tanks have been left at Bundanoon where several friends live, one very close to the burning Morton forest.

1955 water tanker at another Australian railway museum   modern rail water tankers


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:42 AM

Australia, your country is burning – dangerous climate change is here with you now - Michael E Mann is a distinguished professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University. His most recent book, with Tom Toles, is The Madhouse Effect: How Climate Change Denial Is Threatening Our Planet, Destroying Our Politics, and Driving Us Crazy (Columbia University Press, 2016).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM

Any reports from PNG? On one of the fire maps it looked like its whole southern coast was on fire. And that's mostly rainforest - they will have NO experience at dealing with it.

VERY likely that Indonesian interests will be setting fires there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 07:04 AM

Another Independent story:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-fires-latest-smoke-forecast-nsw-victoria-food-water-a9266846.html

One of the people quoted says this whole disaster is planned, exactly what the government wants. Which seems quite plausible. Bolsanaro's Brazil all over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 06:33 AM

The Independent on the scale of the damage

I remember the sky going brown from Australian bushfires when I was a kid in New Zealand in the 60s, but nothing like they're describing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 05:51 AM

The implication being that they should bulldoze Sydney flat to stop it burning?

Has any journo investigated where that farrago of lies, spin and distraction is coming from? Stupidity of that order isn't the sort of thing people invent spontaneously for themselves, it's being inculcated deliberately as an anti-educational initiative by big business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Bruce D
Date: 01 Jan 20 - 03:14 PM

The only thing that is controllable is the fuel load in the bush.
It’s the idioticy of Global Warming/Climate Change and Green ideology, that has cause the intensity of these fires in both Victoria and New South Wales.

The prolong drought, we have been having is also factor as well as the hot dry sirocco winds we are currently having are driving the fires along. The drought and the winds are a result of current weather pattens being driven by two weather causing events well to the South West of Australia and under Africa.   

Many of the fires were lit by man, but also lighting and accidents.

In order for these fires to occur you need three basic ingredients, a source of ignition, Fuel and Oxygen, (remember learning the fire Triangle in School ?). we are never going to be able to prevent all sources of ignition in the bush whether, it an accidental spark, lighting strike, a cigarette butt or a fire bug or a wayward campfire. Oxygen levels are also not controllable, neither does the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere makes any different.

The only thing that is controllable is the fuel load in the bush.

Let’s get a couple of things right, there are two main types of fires in the Australian Bush a cool burn, which consumes the litter on the ground, deal leaves, twigs small branches, bark etc etc but doesn’t affect the trees (they are also great for destroying non-native weeds and other plants). And then there are the Hot Fires which burns the trees and if they get enough heat into the fire it causes the Eucalyptus oils in the gum trees to explode, that will send fireballs many miles ahead of the existing fire front, its type of fire is also known as a crown fire. To get a hot fire you need lots & lots of light fuel on the ground.

In drought years you get drying off of litter on the ground and in wet years you get fast rapid growth, in wet and dry years that litter on the ground will burn.

Research in Western Australia over many years has shown, what farmers and other land owners have always known (but many have forgotten) if you burn off the litter on the ground, deal leaves, twigs small branches, bark, by small regular controlled cold burn fires you will prevent the big hot fire from being able to take hold. Current fire management beliefs is that we need to do more control burns but in saying that they will only reducing the intensity of bush fires, not stop them from occurring.

Current policy’s brought in over the last 40 years now make it near impossible to do regular controlled cool burns.

The reasoning are many, Oh the smoke will inconvenient some. Its may affect the habitat of some animals, blacken ground will spoil the beauty of the bush, Oh we cannot have a fire in a National Park, you are prevent from removing dead and fallen branches from the forest. People are prevent from creating fire breaks though their own property, or removing dead trees from around houses.

We have progressively allowed State Governments to increase the number of National Parks around Australia, without increasing the budget or number of people to manage the said National Parks (in fact majority of National Parks now have NO on site managers or rangers (I recently camp in a popular Victorian National Park for 8 days and never saw a ranger during that time). People actively campaign against any form of improvements in access (or services) to our National Parks. I recently watched people protest against control burns next to one of our national Parks because it might damage the limestone, then the same people light a fire for the evening to sit around.

Before white settlement the aboriginals regularly burnt much of the bush, mainly as a method of hunting, and in some cases to promote the growth of new shoots and bulbs for food but they also used fires to fight the neighbouring tribes. These were mainly cool small fires, they had no concept of fighting fires but knew the terror that a major fire would bring. Despite popular mythology aboriginal fires weren’t using it to manage the land, it was primary a hunting method.
Historical records showed that the time of the first fleet, the entire coastline was smokey from many fires inland and along the coast.

Currently our Bush fire fighters are only trying to protect people and property (townships mainly), there is not enough resources to tackle these types of fires in all of Australia, more water bombers is not the answer either is more volunteer fire fighters or paid fire fighters or more fire trucks. The only thing that will stop these fires is a cool wet change, low winds and rain (Heaps and Heaps of Rain).

What is needed to go back to sensible policies of hazard reduction burns and increased feet on the ground to manage the land, and a reversal of the current management plans of our National Parks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 09:07 PM

Large parts of Australia are in drought & country towns are running out of water, making it harder in some places to fight the fires. Friends live in a small coastal village with tank water, fortunately they have a lake which was used to save the town, but other places have not been so lucky. Another friend lives in Cobargo - see thread BruceD created yesterday.

One of the best known poems in Australia My Country by Dorothea Mackeller has a line that everyone remembers about droughts & flooding rains, but a later verse that no-one remembers mentions fire, & the current fire season started much earlier & the fires have been bigger & longer lasting. We even have tropical forests from Gonwandaland burning that have never burnt in millions of years. (link to this story somewhere above)

news links, cartoons & memes - a burnt out fire warning sign, photoshopped image of a silo with pic of prime minister & his famous lump of coal. Silos have been decorated all around Australia for many years, & a couple of years ago Morrison brought a smaller lacquered piece of coal into Parliament, supplied by some mining group & cartoonists have utilised the coal ever since.)   

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 08:49 PM

Don't think I am being callous to say that perhaps now an army of concerned civilians will be willing to commit civil disobedience to support immediate action against global warming.

I found that the worst thing about being arrested was that the bologna sandwiches had no mayonaise.

If fire doesn't motivate, nothing will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 02:42 PM

Orange apocolyptic skies and choking smoke means its your time to FLEE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 02:24 PM

About a year ago friends recommended "The Dry" by Jane Harper. It was very evocative of a parched landscape. The mind boggles at the conflagrations now being endured. My thoughts are with you. Alaska has had seasonal fires for many years, but of course nothing approaching your current catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 08:57 AM

we should do more to help them....surely someone knows how to put a bloody fire out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 06:40 PM

getting worse - a 10-ton fire truck was blown over by a "fire tornado" & a young fireman killed, large areas have evacuation orders, folk in some of these areas are sent to the beach as the safest place if they haven't evacuated.

East Gippsland towns brace for bushfires as wind change sweeps Victoria

South Coast bushfires burn at emergency level, threatening lives and homes

bushfire storms can spark fire tornadoes dry lightning & more


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:33 AM

How hot will it be today? Christopher Downes often includes a Tasmanian devil in his cartoons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 08:05 AM

Objectively the Earth is on fire. Personally, do not panic unless you are told "do not panic" by the governmnt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

thanks Jack & Mr Red

Falls Festival in Lorne cancelled due to forecast extreme bushfire risk About 9,000 disappointed festival-goers have been told to pack up and leave Falls Festival in Lorne on the Great Ocean Road due to predicted extreme weather conditions.
Some people who drove across state lines to attend the annual music festival said they were frustrated the call to cancel was not made earlier.
In a statement announcing the decision, organisers said conditions forecast for the Otways and the surrounding region tomorrow had worsened in the past 12 hours, creating "a risk to health and safety due to potential fires, smoke, severe winds and tree hazards".
We are gutted to make this call but the safety of our patrons, artists and staff is our main priority," said Jessica Ducrou, the co-chief executive of festival organisers Secret Sounds.
Punters will receive full refunds on tickets, including booking and payment-processing fees, as early as 9:00am on Monday. (read on)

Seven artists from the Lorne line-up have arranged last-minute gigs in Melbourne for Sunday and Monday night to alleviate disappointment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM

Further away, but much bigger and much hotter:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/27/hot-blob-vast-and-unusual-patch-of-warm-water-off-new-zealand-coast-puzzles-scientists


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 05:19 AM

Sydney Fireworks go ahead petitions to stop them, on grounds of insensitivity. In my mind I keep hearing "Nero fiddling, while Rome burns".

When I lived in NZ, bonfire night was their summer and sporadic fires from rockets falling on tinder-dry grassland and creating pockets of fire that the fire brigade had to deal with. Professional firework displays would never have that problem would they? Hmmmm, the word hubris is now rattling round my cranium (bumping into insensitivity)

The UK has had some pretty bad fires on the moors in recent years. California?

A pattern is emerging.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:36 AM

I got that story from my brother, who is a biologist who spent most of his career working in Tasmania in stuff relating to commerce and the environment - and the first *he'd* heard about it was via that American newspaper article. The implication being that the Australian media have been appallingly negligent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:02 AM

thanks, Jack I wasn't aware of the situation in Tasmanian waters.

I can't find any current articles about the kelp, most recent is from May, others from a couple of years ago & I would have seen/heard about it, but I'd forgotten.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:28 AM

Catastrophic ocean warming around Tasmania


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Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 05:54 AM

Cattle have stopped breeding, koalas die of thirst: A vet's hellish diary of climate change

this story has attracted a lot of attention


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