MIDI Instrument Voices: A Brave New World!

Subject: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:57 AM

Don't these vile objects just make you want to weep?

Midi Concertina

Midi Bagpipes

Midi Saxophone

Midi Violin

I'm sure the likes of Stradivari, Wheatstone & all other creators of wonderful, natural musical instruments, will be weeping buckets in their graves now!

Granted, the Concertina still looks like a Concertina, but how long before that lovely old box shape we all know & love, becomes a shinny, gaudy coloured plastic or metal mockery of the original?

Can you honestly picture those Midi Pipes being played at a Burns Night?
Let's be honest, if Burns came back, I think we all know where he'd stick that Pipers plastic Midi Chanter!

Quite frankly, I really don't care how close they come to sounding like the 'real thing' they are just WRONG for me, on oh so many levels!

Take a look at this wonderful photo of a Mongolian Orchestra
Look at all these fascinating instruments, which took thousands of years of development, thanks to the efforts of countless musicians & master craftsmen instrument makers, to reach their stage of perfection. Is this how we are going to treat all art forms in the future?

Now picture that same orchestra, standing there, each with some vile looking modern, high tech Midi equivalent of their ancient & traditional instrument in their hands! Can we really say that would be progress.
{ No doubt the Chines Gov. would prefer the old ways to die out! :-( ... but that's another story, for another day. }

If that's the future of music, all I can say is ................... I'm glad I won't be around to see it!

Is this how we are going to treat all art forms in the future?
Maybe we should just paint a Smiley Face on the Mona Lisa while we're at it!

Here are another couple of options you might like to consider: New Improved Mona Lisa

But seriously folks, are the Colin & Rosalie Dippers of this World, really just wasting their time?
Should traditional instrument makers start packing their bags now & start training for jobs in I T? ............................................

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:46 AM

Oh My God!

It's worse than I thought! :-(

TOO UGLY!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM

Ah, but have you actually heard Bill Whaley play a banjo solo on the The Purple People Pleaser?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Darowyn
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:48 AM

I disagree, and you are factually wrong on two of them.
The Yamaha wind controller is not a Midi Saxophone, it's a device to allow woodwind players to control a synthesiser with a control system which they are familiar with.
The Violin is simply a cutaway, solid body electric violin- and they sound superb.
My hat is off to the creators of the Midi-enabled concertina- Mr Wheatstone would have loved it, as one innovator to another. You will be able to play Hammond Organ licks without having to carry a ton of equipment (only slight exaggeration)
Imagine a bagpipe with no intonation problems, with drones that stay on pitch and with the choice of Equal temperament or just intonation and the option of sounding like Scottish War Pipes, Northumbrian or Catalan small pipes- you've got it!
You are an old luddite- that's all.
Get with it man!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

Now I believe this would please people.

This is much more like it .... au naturale.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

Oh sorry, my mistake, wind controller, synthesiser, whatever the heck it is, it looks CR*P!

Electric Violin! ... forgive me if I just can't stand to look at them, much less listen to them. OK for R & R bands, but just keep them to hell away from real music!

Midi or not, in my opinion they both just look horrible.

Er, when I pick up a Concertina, I want it to sound like a Concertina, not some bl**dy peely wally, wishy washy synthsised imitation of a real instrument. I certainly don't want it to sound anything remotely like a feckin' Hammond Organ. Saints preserve us, Satan himself would, I suspect, have more sense than to sit behind one of those monstrosities!

Sorry for beating about the bush. If I get my confidence up, I might speak my mind later! :-)

As for a plastic bagpipe that can sound like them all!

Have you no soul?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:15 AM

Stanley Robertson plays electronic bagpipes and a MIDI concertina doesn't have to look ugly.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:30 AM

Now Snail, are talking about Stanley or the instruments?

Sorry Stanley, only joking. :-)
I've seen Stanley perform many times in Aberdeen & I know he can certainly tell a story alright.

As for his taste in musical instruments ..................................

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:34 AM

Just giving a little background information. Mind you, I agree with you about the "feckin' Hammond Organ" but I also agree with Darowyn tha Professor Wheatstone would have loved it.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: gnomad
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

Divided loyalties here. My personal preference is for the unaccompanied, and unamplified human voice, but...

Every musical instrument, from the humblest knocking together of a couple of sticks to the mightiest organ, is to a greater or lesser extent artificial, and the first user of each of them has been an innovator. What has made the instrument acceptable is a combination of refinement, artistry, and the passage of time.

Most instruments can give me considerable pleasure when played well, so despite my Luddite tendencies I try to welcome such developments as these, though I do quietly relish the thought of a power cut. Just as long as we are not talking automatic drum machines, backing tracks and miming. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and that one is mine.

I have heard the purple people pleaser in action (it was being a church organ on that occasion) and I enjoyed it. Like any innovation acceptability or otherwise is in the hands of the person wielding the novelty item. I would far rather hear a gifted player on one of these instruments than a hopeless amateur on a priceless Stradivarius, or some two year old with baby's first drumkit.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:55 AM

I have seen and heard one of those digital concertinas up close. I was not impressed.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM

Tam, I am not surprised! ;-)

As for Wheatstone loving it, I'm not so sure.

I love Mini Skirts, but I wouldn't be seen dead wearing one myself!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

Ptarmigan

As for Wheatstone loving it, I'm not so sure.

Really?

I love Mini Skirts, but I wouldn't be seen dead wearing one myself!

Oh, go on. You'll never know until you give it a try.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM

OK

Aye Wheatstone was open minded alright, but I'm not convinced he'd mess around THAT much with his wonderful creation!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Wheatstone WAS also an Electrical Rngineer , and the Whetastone Bridge he invented is still a valid item in any Electrical School

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:21 AM

Aye, but could you get a tune out of a Wheatstone Bridge?

Is there a modern Midi version of the Wheatstone Bridge?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

The point is---none of these modern gizmos sound any good when the power goes off.Acoustic intstruments,many of them the result of centuries of experimentation and developement,are aesthetically pleasing,both visually and aurally,whilst many "modern" ,electrified instruments look very sort of futuristic,space-age ,1950s Kitsch----in other words,rather vulgar.You won't see many cutaway,shiny,matallic- blue,twinkly plastic "Stradivarious", I dare say. But don't get me wrong---I am not knocking electro intstruments "per se"....I have recently "discovered " Bela Fleck & The Flecktones, and I think that their electric-bass player (Wooten ?) is SUPERB, as are his instruments (works of art in their own right ), but really-----a concertina is a concertina ; what IS the point of an electric,cut-down plastic one ?? Ugh !!And those miniature electic bagpipes----who is going to carry the generator, or the inverter and batteries,as the band marches out of Stirling Castle, eh ??? Poo !!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM

Or ,indeed, METALLIC-blue,either.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Darowyn
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

The internet is a bit static when the electricity goes off too!
Is that a reason for converting Mudcat to pigeon post?
The point of Midi is control and flexibilty, the point of electric instruments is control of timbre and a wider dynamic range.
Is is relevant ot say that although it sounds great, a Strad fiddle is no good because boring brown wood is out of fashion?
Like I said:- Luddites!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

Indeeed Roger ! I wasnt there myself , but Irecall Jim Couza at a festival , in concert , when they had a power cut . Net result ? A forty minute (I THINK) set of songs and tunes on the hammered dulcimer in almost total darkness .
Thats a thought - What about a Midi H D ??   Yeuccch !!!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM

OK Ptarmigan, you were right about the mini-skirt.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

They have the great advantage that you can turn them down.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

..... & off!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:52 PM

"Thats a thought - What about a Midi H D ??"

Well, on the positive side, I suppose they'd save you one heck of a lot of tuning!

You could also turn down all that unwanted extra reverb too!
.... or up, if you really wanted to really annoy other folks! :-)

You wouldn't need to buy Hammers either, you could just use matches instead! :-)

.... & you wouldn't take up THREE or FOUR seats at your local Session!

Of course, you would sound like something your dog leaves behind him & look not much better, but hey, that'd be a small price to pay! :-)

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM

OK Ptarmigan, you were right about the mini-skirt.

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

They have the great advantage that you can turn them down.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:12 PM

Would it not be an advantage to be able to play in any key?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:21 PM

You CAN Michael ... on an English Concertina! :-)

After that though, instruments have their Traditional key - F ... Bb etc & also so much music has been written especially for those instruments over the years, in those keys.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

F and Bflat are no problem on MY mandolin . BMaj and C# are a bit of a pain though

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

I'm thinking, BMaj & C# would be no problem to this guy!

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

Hmm! Some strong views above, from the opening post onwards. I certainly wouldn't want to see conventional instruments disappear, but the midi ones can be complementary.

Some of the advantages have already been mentioned. Although you can play in many keys on a conventional concertina, unless it's a Hayden Duet you have to be clever, and change the fingering for every key. With midi you can transpose, change to a different octave, change the tone, and even change to a completely different sound.

I had a very brief go some years ago on a prototype midi concertina made by Steve Simpson. Being able to play a Carolan tune and have the sound of a harp coming out was fun, though also seriously confusing to the mind.

One feature that I DIDN'T like seems to be repeated by the current makers. There are conventional bellows, so you can only go in one direction for a certain time before you run out of air. I failed to persuade Steve to replace the bellows by some sort of spring, that would allow push/pull and change of pressure but without running out of air.

Anyway I'm not in the market for one at the moment, because a new conventional concertina from Colin Dipper should be ready for me any day now . . . .

Richard

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:11 PM

Richard, perhaps one of these little beauties will tempt you to swop your Dipper!

Is this a Harp, Lute, Guitar, Harpsichord .... whatever it is, it certainly doesn't sound like a Concertina.

Is this supposed to be a Violin, Viola, a Cello or a Double Bass? The notes say Cello & Bassoon, otherwise we would never really know, would we!

Here's one that's pretending to be an Accordion!

Ha Ha this one even thinks it's a Concertina!

In the good old days, at least you knew by looking at an instrument, what it was going to sound like, but now ???????????

I sometimes hear Fiddlers trying very, very hard to make their Fiddles sound like Bagpipes & I ask .......... WHY?

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:17 PM

Dick said
> perhaps one of these little beauties will tempt you to swop your Dipper! <

The description of the Wakker concertinas from one of the above links says "The instruments can generate data over two channels (layers) simultaneously. This means you can combine two different sounds at the same time."

I take that to mean a maximum of only two notes at once. Is that right? The YouTube demos of the Anglo are consistent with that: more-or-less Irish style, mostly one note at a time, with an occasional bass. That's not my style. I don't do a Peter Bellamy or Robin Madge with fistfuls of notes, but I do play chords a lot of the time.

> Is this supposed to be a Violin, Viola, a Cello or a Double Bass?

The samples may be from one or other of those but the articulation remains that of a concertina -- quite different from a bowed string.

Richard

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: GUEST,PayPaul
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:16 PM

I'm please to provide this to you all. I'd have to say that all this bickering back and forth about the merits or demerits of acoustical instruments vs electronic instruments is like the arguments that photographers have about Nikon vs Canon or Film vs Digital. It's not about the instrument as gnomad so aptly pointed out it's about the player. I've seen some really bad photographs put out by people with the "best" equipment. It's an apples vs oranges argument and a question of qualification rather than quality of the music. Electrical instruments aren't necessarily always trying to emulate acoustical instruments and there are those who are simply used to amplify an acoustical sounding instrument.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

Sorry PayPaul but we already had a link to that, back in the 5th post!

I have to disagree too, it is all about the instrument, its appearance, its sound the whole idea of it pretending to be something it is not.

In my opinion, if it has this so called magical ability to sound like any instrument it likes, then why don't they construct it to look like nothing that's ever been made before, or perhaps looking like bits of all instruments & so let it look like the Bastard it really is!

As it is, it degrades all the instruments it impersonates! :-(

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:17 AM

What does a concertina look like? It's just a box with buttons on the ends. OK, it's got the bellows but there is no clue from the outside where the sound is coming from. Could be a load of highly trained wasps. I've heard it described as the first violin synthesizer.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:47 AM

When I was at college (1963), a fellow student brought in an electric guitar - I think it was a British-made copy of a Strat, probably a Watkins (remember them?). Another rather snooty student said, very sniffily to her friends, "THAT's not a proper guitar". Hmm.

Plus ca change - plus c'est la meme chose...

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:01 AM

College in 1963 !!!!!!

Geeez, your even older than me! :-)

At the end of the day though, it's all about opinions & I'm expressing mine here.

Aye Snail & I suppose a Piano is just a box with a load of keys, so what kind of synthesiser is that then?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:04 AM

Sometimes I think I'm older than everybody... :-)

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:22 AM

Ptarmigan

Aye Snail & I suppose a Piano is just a box with a load of keys, so what kind of synthesiser is that then?

Harp.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Darowyn
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:04 AM

Have a look at the names of the stops on a church organ.
Obviously it was intended to be an analogue orchestral synthesiser.
The great triumph came from the fact that a church organ is a rubbish synth, but a brilliant instrument in its own right.
It's the same story with the Moog Synth, or the Roland TR808.
They all start out as a poor copy, but become a whole new set of opportunities for people who don't dismiss it out of hand because:-
-it's new.
-it's doesn't look the same.
-it's the wrong colour.
-they can't afford the time or money to learn anything new.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

My electronic bagpipe:

Travels with an electronic bagpipe

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:29 AM

Hey Jack, it never ceases to amaze me, the lengths a Piper has to go to, to disguise the fact that he is indeed a Piper.
Mind you, sneaking off in disguise, to foreign countries is a bit extreme though isn't it?
After all, there are still a few wild, isolated areas of the UK you could go & hide in, aren't there! :-)

Darwin, some new things are obviously more easily accepted than others.
For example I'm quite happy with the Square Concertina despite the fact that it doesn't "look the same".
At least it is an honest instrument, not pretending to be something it isn't!
I've no problem with colour either .... as long as it's black! :-)
No, just joking, there are some gorgeous old Concertinas with a variety of beautiful rare wood veneers.
As for being prepared to spend time & money on something new, I've only recently taken up the English Concertina, after 35+ years playing many other instruments, & I've spent a small fortune on 2 gorgeous old Wheatstones, so believe me, I'm always up for a 'worthwhile' challange!

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:23 AM

Mention must be made of Neil Brook's MIDI hurdy-gurdy...

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

I couldn't resist this:

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan - PM
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:21 AM

Aye, but could you get a tune out of a Wheatstone Bridge?

Is there a modern Midi version of the Wheatstone Bridge?

Have a look at the Hyperbow! This uses strain gauges arranged in a Wheatstone Bridge circuit to sense the strain in a violin bow as part of the input to a electronic musical interface. More details for the brave here: PDF link (77kB)

To answer the original question though - if they were to exclusively replace acoustic instruments then yes, I'd weep. But, if used in their own right, by creative musicians, I really don't have a problem. But then I've been known to like "unreal" R&R music too!

Cheers,

Pete.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

I `ad that Professor Wheatstone in my cab once. It was just after `is daughter `ad come up with a way of brewing coffee.
`e said, "Jim, could you take me up the old Royal Society please.
         I`ve just done all the `ard work on me Bridge and I`m gonna
         present a paper."
I said, "D`ya reckon the old scientific world`ll take it on
         board?"
`e said, "Yeah, No doubt about it. I don`t expect any RESISTANCE!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

Jim .... Say Cheese!



:-)

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:14 PM

`ere Ptarmigan, I said "Cheese" and all I got was

"GOOGLE, error, could not find URL" (whatever that is when its at `ome). What`s going on `ere then?

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

Jim, it worked OK for me on Preview! .... ?

OK Try this link:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jTcvNh2wMBs/R0dswSM-y0I/AAAAAAAACmU/AzqtsRk8ztg/P1350700.JPG

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:44 PM

Brave New world indeed. In the non-ironic sense that Miranda first used the expression in The Tempest.

Looks and sounds very enjoyable. It's not going to drive out real concertinas, so where's the loss?

But it'd really need to be able to play a lot more than two notes at a time.

Subject: RE: A Brave New World!
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:53 PM

Ptarmigan, you`re `aving a laugh. I done it three times, lost two fares now me supper`s going cold. I`m gonna take an aspirin and try it again later.