carol thatcher death threats

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

So to summarise:-

Multiple wrongs don't make a right.
She was wrong.
The death-threateners are wrong.
Racist remarks are wrong.
Most agree that she's an overblown, untalented Hooray-Henrietta who's made a very good living trading off her mother's past job-history.
Now can we move on?
Please.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM

Thank you Laurel for clarifying what the heck people here are referring to.

~S~

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

I assume these toys originated in the minstrel era when both black and white performers wore such clothes and makeup.

Ok, when you've finished assuming you can inform yourself.

here

Golliwogs are a racist caricature of a stereotype view of Black people, created for our enjoyment and fun.

They humiliate black people and the humour attached to them was indicative of a mindset that denied black people the right to use the same toilets as white people or to drink from th same water fountains.

It ridiculed racial characteristics.

Often that ridicule was reinforced by violent humiliation and in some cases lynching.

We didn't know that before, we know it now.

But I have no doubt that many of us will reject this information, choose to ignore it and say:


"I fully support Carol and in my opinion she did nothing wrong. Silly PC gone wild. We will soon have to address coloured people as Sir or Madam. Load of crap the whole business."

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:08 AM

I fully support Carol and in my opinion she did nothing wrong. Silly PC gone wild. We will soon have to address coloured people as Sir or Madam. Load of crap the whole business.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:06 AM

Is saying someone's hair looks like a golliwog really a rascist remark? What if I said a girl looked like Barbie; sexist, perhaps? Or a sharp dresser looked like Blind Blake? Surely it's not the words but the intention. I'm hardly a fan of the Thatchers - and Carol T is just another whose only talent is self promotion - but was the remark really mean to belittle, hurt, intimidate etc. I assume these toys originated in the minstrel era when both black and white performers wore such clothes and makeup.
Terry Wogan on Radio 2 has on several occasions mentioned Lead Belly and Blind Lemon Jefferson being on the chain gang. As far as I know the latter bluesman was never so incarcerated so would the family of Mr Jefferson like to sue? Anything to get rid of him! TW that is.
Doc John

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lox
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:01 AM

Death threats are inexcusable.

So are Carol Thatchers comments.

The reason that racist comments are extremely serious is that they come from and appeal to a part of all human beings that is capable of acts of vicious inhuman violence and cruelty.

This has been a consistent aspect of human nature for thousands of years and it continues today.

For those who have been on the receiving end of this, racist comments serve to perpetuate their fear that such attitudes still prevail.

People who go on about black people "having a chip on their shoulder" and "being oversensitive" and "PC madness" may ignore this fact of history if they wish.

They may attempt to excuse their blind contempt for the wrongs of history in whatever way they like.

But there are those of us who say NEVER AGAIN and we'll be a thorn in your side till the day we die.

So make your comments but expect to be confronted if you do.

And if I confront you, expect a rough ride.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:40 AM

The continued use of such nasty terms is "energizing the thought". If we would all stop using them they would die out for lack of use. As long as we keep it going it will never die.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:22 AM

pc folks

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM

"No surprise that one of the Thatcher clan should come up with something like this."
Jack, please - this is a family with serious problems.
A psychopathic mother, an idiot father, a criminal son who only managed to avoid being banged up by grassing on his mates and now a racist daughter with verbal diarrhea.
Have a little sympathy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

Mark Twain was right, when he said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:52 AM

I find this whole incident difficult to form a firm opinion on, as no account I have read actually says what she said, or in what circumstances. Gervase seems to comment as if he knows what was said, who was there etc and so on: could you give us a link to your source?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Betsy
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:39 AM

Gervase - I stand corrected .

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Stu
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:24 AM

No surprise that one of the Thatcher clan should come up with something like this. The death threats are out of order I agree, but also there is no doubt the Thatchers are not really very nice people.

As for the QI comments, anyone who upsets senior Tories is all right by me. Believe me they don't give a shit about any of us.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:56 AM

Should Jo Brand be sacked for this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/4560371/BBC-faces-fresh-criticism-over-offensive-remarks-about-Baroness-Thatcher.html

The url appears to be too long so I can't make a blue clicky link.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

"Just wait till the Yanks wake up and Miss Azizi sees this!"

OMG!!! I know what you mean!
Do you think she'll respond with her usual moderate manner, highly informed, sensitve and intelligent reasoning!?

And, "Miss Azizi"?
Does that come with a comedy accent?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:25 AM

As I said, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech; it is about whether we are prepared to accept people in the public eye using offensive racist abuse.
I gave a list of examples of common racist abuse which I encountered throughout my working life, some of it on a daily basis, much of it on a daily basis. And answer came there none - I ask again - do people find it acceptable?
Let's take it a step further - how would you women out there take to being described as bitches, tarts, slits, snails, c---s, whores, slags, pole-perchers, knocking-pieces - or even 'er indoors' - and how would you feel if these terms were in general use by people in the public eye with access to the media?
Akenaton,
MacColl's stance on racism was, as far as I am concerned, impeccable - I have no doubt that if he were alive there would be a song....!
I assume you never saw 'The Festival of Fools' sketch he wrote on the 'Basil D'Olivera' incident - bit difficult to describe, but it starts with an English crowd applauding his performance at the wicket - and ends with them screaming racist abuse (golliwog featured prominently in the torrent) and beating him to the ground with cricket bats - wonderful stuff!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:26 PM

Ah'm away tae ma bed the noo!!

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

Just wait till the Yanks wake up and Miss Azizi sees this!

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM

"So---where are the protesters in Henley-on Thames ?"

Is that an example of a question that answers itself???

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: paula t
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:56 PM

I have always felt uncomfortable about Gollywog toys. Someone bought me one when I was a child(1964) and it embarassed me ,because even at the age of 4 I thought it was meant to make fun of someone. That toy stayed in the bottom of my rather small toybox and was never played with. I must have picked up the racist meaning of this toy from somewhere because a 4 year old is not usually politically aware.

If a 4 year old can feel uncomfortable about the term "Gollywog" and the form the toy takes, then a fully grown woman should get it too.I am glad that one of the people who heard this comment had the courage to speak up. It is a difficult thing to do , but if no-one challenges such comments in the workplace then those people think it is acceptable .

However, death threats are also totally unacceptable .They have no place in any society.There are better ways to express your disgust.They merely serve to cloud the issue and also give racists the chance to stick together as a "victimised " group. The argument is quickly turned from one about an unacceptable racist comment by a "well educated" but ignorant person , to one of the right to "Free speech" and attacks on the so - called "PC brigade" by the more right wing newspapers.There usually follows a spate of stories about ridiculous rules made up by obscure councils and little groups (remember "Baa Baa Rainbow sheep"?) and then people start talking about being British............Then the original misdemeanor is forgotten and the person gets their job back - usually being seen as a hero,as a champion of free speech and a victim of unfairness.

This woman has finally shown what she is really like . I hope this is the last we hear of her.



.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:39 PM

Betsy, there were around 30 people present, most of whom she didn't know. Not two.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:31 PM

Talk about apples and oranges!

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:16 PM

Betsy

If you were at work say during tea break and you heard a colleague use the word spaz about a someone with cerebral palsy, what would you do?

Just curious.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

My mother used to refer to blacks as "Darkies" too, but I can say flatly there was not one scrid of racism in her.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rog Peek
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

Seeing Villan's post about his cat got me to thinking what they might call Wing Commander Guy Gibson's dog if they did a remake of 'The Dam Busters' film.

Rog

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:48 PM

I don't like anything connected to Margaret Thatcher , but if the remark was said only in front of 2 people - Adrian Chiles and Jo Brand (apparently it was in a some hospitality room in the TV studio) - they are the two for whom I feel sorry if indeed they were the only two people present.
If they were SO offended they should have admonished Carol Thatcher immediately and give her a bollicking. To report her to the BBC authorities is beneath contempt.
What a pair of pricks. We're turning into a Stalinist state .

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:46 PM

LOL John

What's wrong. If people want to do that to their hair more power to em. As the the wiki description goes

"The Mohawk, by its nature, and depending on the type of hair the wearer has, is typically a high-maintenance style, although after practice, can become quite routine for the wearer and done in a much shorter amount of time. Depending on the specific look desired by the wearer, regular, careful shaving may be required to maintain a clean line between the shaven and long parts of the hair; this can be especially complicated in bi- and tri- hawks. "

snip

If you are trying to point out a parallel between what Thatcher said about the tennis player, that's comparing apples to oranges.

Gervase... thank you.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

Death threats? My left arse!
Sure, I've had those too - mostly they're laughable. When I was a hack I had a far-right website publish my photograph with an open invitation for anyone to 'have a go'. And they never did. So claims of death threats from Carol's "friends" cuts little ice with me.
I'm sorry, but I would have sacked Carol Thatcher years ago for being a talentless waste of space who owed her role solely to nepotism. If she now whinges that she's being victimised because she's Thatcher's daughter, maybe she should appreciate that the only reason she's managed to hold down a job as a jobbing freelance for the past 30 years is precisely because she's Thatcher's daughter.
She would be hard-pressed to survive on a local weekly freesheet, and yet I have actually had this woman utter to me those classic lines, "Do you know who I am?"
She used the word 'golliwog' several times in several different contexts in front of about 30 people, many of whom she didn't know from Adam or Eve. For her crassness and stupidity, the revocation of her "One Show" agreement would seem only fair. It would be fairer if the oxygen of publicity was denied to her in perpetuity.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM

?

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

I think Carol Thatcher did apologise but she refused to give an unreserved apology so it wasn't accepted.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:44 PM

"Sir John Betjeman always reminded me of a teddy bear."

Me too, John.   A gentle, crumpled, well loved teddy at that.

My house is full of bears. :0)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:42 PM

"No, she doesn't deserve death threats but she doesn't need apologists either."

Who's apologising for her? In her arrogance, she's chosen *not* to apologise. Arrogant people do that, refuse to apologise. It says a great deal about them.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:41 PM

Considering that I don't know what a golliwog looks like, I can't comment.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Sir John Betjeman always reminded me of a teddy bear.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: GUEST,Mr Yeahbut
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

just need a G.I.Joe / Action Man KKK outfit

and the mudcat toybox will be complete.....

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Your "liberal" attitude disappoints me Jim. You of all people must know that there are many nastier wrongs in this world than a few stupid words from one stupid woman.
There are no racists on this forum as far as I know, but plenty of Witchfinder Generals trying to hunt one down.

The man whom I believe we both revere, Mr MacColl, would not be taken in I'm sure.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

The fact remains that she SAID it, and it was not meant 'kindly' I'm sure. No, she doesn't deserve death threats but she doesn't need apologists either.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Pardon me, but are there ANY excuses for a racist comment? ANY?????

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Better not go to The Netherlands or Flanders at Sinterklaas

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

Yes, some of that was in the Robertson's link too,

Taken from open mike's link above. to Wiki:

"In February 2009, Carol Thatcher, in an off-air conversation at the BBC, referred to the black French tennis player Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, competing in the Australian Open, as looking like a golliwog.[5] The comment was considered by the BBC as "wholly unacceptable" and Thatcher was informed that unless she apologised she would no longer be a reporter on BBC's The One Show. Thatcher stated that it was a silly joke and declined to make an "unconditional apology". Thatcher claimed that her comment was a reference to the golliwog motifs that she saw in her childhood on "jars of jam" (Robertson's Marmalade).[6]

The French publication Sportsweek claimed that Thatcher, in talking about a previous competition referred to another player as "the one who was defeated by the golliwog in the previous tour". The French publication, which showed a picture of Tsonga above a picture of a toy golliwog, claimed that Thatcher was "mortified" and that her comment was about the similarity of Tsonga's appearance to the doll that she had as a child.[7]"

As I said, Carol Thatcher has a lot to learn from Russell Brand.





I didn't know these bits:

Other meanings and in popular culture...........

......The American rock group Creedence Clearwater Revival was known as "The Golliwogs" and under this name they released a number of singles on the Fantasy label before they rose to prominence......

.....Golliwog is a solo-single by ABBA member Agnetha Fältskog from 1974....."

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

"the sins of Augusto Pinochet are not those of Margaret Thatcher."
No, but she endorsed his actions by supporting his not coming to trial for war crimes.
Carol Thatcher - her actions indicate she is comfortable in following in her mother's footsteps.
Can we have some ground rules here - what should be permissible?
We've had Harry the halfwit with his 'towelhead and Pakie - up to the point he used the terms, generally accepted as racist and offensive (even in the dictionary)
Then (Charlie the clown) - Sooty
The D of E - Fuzzie-wuzzie
The Queen mother regularly talked about 'darkies'
Where do we go from here - nig-nog (or nigger), coon, Yid (or Kike, or Sheeney), greaser (or greaseball), Polak, Frog, Kraut......?
Please tick the appropriate space.
All of those proudly displaying their racism confirm what I have always believed - there are as many of you in the closet as out of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: open mike
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

i wondered so i googled..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: kendall
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

"Look out how you use proud words. They walk off proudly. They wear long boots, they wear hard boots. They can't hear you calling.
Look out how you use proud words."

Carl Sandburg.

"The moving finger writes; and having writ moves on.
Nor all your piety and wit can lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all your tears wash out a word of it."

Omar Khayyam

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

I had a friend owned a stuffed blonde doll in southern belle gown that you could flip over smooth the dress down over her head to reveal the black mammy doll. It fascinated me when I was little because it was a clever trick. Even at the tender age of eight I wonderered why the white side had a pretty dress on and the black side gingham and a patched apron.   At least this doll looked real and was painted attractively.

I find the g... dolls repugnant. They are no more than a racist caricature from a (thank gawd) bygone era. There is nothing remotely accruate about them compared to the people they were created to parody.

While I would never approve of a torch and pitchfork bearing village mob runnning purveyors of such goods out of town, I would not give them any custom and I would not be afraid to tell them why.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

>>(even though we weren't/are)<<

That should have read (even though we weren't/are not)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

We had a black cat (1950's) and it was called Nigger.

We loved the cat to pieces. Like Lizzie, racism never came into it. In fact we didn't know what it meant.

Blimey to think every night we called the cat in "Here Nigger, Nigger, here Nigger, Nigger" until the cat came in.

When the cat died it broke our hearts.

I guess today we would be considered rascist and would receive death threats (even though we weren't/are).

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:21 PM

Life at your home must be a barrel of laughs, Bonzo3. :)

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM

I dread to think of the the people who live in the Black Country and talk the dialect.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

I'm not a fan of Carol Thatcher. It has nothing to do with her mother, for I believe in 'Do Not Visit The Sins of The Fathers - or Mothers - Upon The Children' . It's because I've never been able to understand how she gets the jobs in broadcasting that she does. For me, there are far more talented people around who are far more deserving of the jobs she's given.

I can understand people of a younger age taking offence at what she said.

However...............

..I'm of an 'older' age, and for me, the term 'Golliwog' is no different to 'Teddy Bear', in that when I was growing up (I'm 53) golliwogs were toys. I *always* wanted a golly, but was never allowed one. There were *never* any racist overtones to it for me, or for any of my friends.

Robertson's Marmalade and Jams used to have their Robertson Golly on every single one of their jars, and as kids we'd save the labels up and send off for the little badges, and Oh how I loved those badges! :0) It was entirely innocent and I never grew up to use the word in an abusive manner.

Robertson's Golly


I think it's sad that 'gollywog' has become yet another word to hang people with, because to me it has no racist meaning at all, but then I come from a time when 'gay' also meant happy, so what do I know?

But those of you who are younger, and who choose to see racists/religiousists/facists/sexisits/dailymailitists in every person that you don't like, just remember, that once upon a time, words were said in innocence...

And once upon a time we didn't all report on one another, or take each other to court over things.

Once upon a time, before we reached '1984', the world was, on the whole, a somewhat gentler place.

I don't think she deserves to be hated for this. That would put her, for me, in the same category as paedeophiles and murderers.

I think Russell Brand, for all his daftness, is the only one to have come out of any of these BBC fiascos with some respect, because he admitted he'd done wrong immediately and he apologised profusely. I felt it was from the heart too, as he seemed genuinely upset to have caused the upset he did to Andrew Sachs and his grandaughter. Then he disappeared off into the sunset, of his own accord, without ever having to be sacked from his job. He behaved in an honourable way at the end.

I think that Carol and Jonathon have a great deal to learn from Russell.

Subject: RE: carol thatcher death threats
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

I'm beginning to take quite a shine to you Bubbly!