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TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan

Amos 09 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM
Sandra in Sydney 09 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM
katlaughing 09 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM
Lonesome EJ 09 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM
michaelr 09 Feb 09 - 08:40 PM
Gedi 10 Feb 09 - 08:36 AM
Mr Happy 10 Feb 09 - 08:52 AM
bankley 10 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM
Maryrrf 10 Feb 09 - 09:54 AM
meself 10 Feb 09 - 11:47 AM
Les in Chorlton 11 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM
Ptarmigan 11 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 09 - 04:31 AM
ard mhacha 11 Feb 09 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 09 - 04:47 AM
Ptarmigan 11 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM
ard mhacha 11 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM
gnu 11 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM
ard mhacha 12 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM
breezy 12 Feb 09 - 05:09 AM
ard mhacha 12 Feb 09 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM
Les in Chorlton 12 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM
Ptarmigan 12 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM
ard mhacha 12 Feb 09 - 02:15 PM
ard mhacha 12 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM
Ptarmigan 12 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM
Goose Gander 12 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM
ard mhacha 12 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM
Don Firth 12 Feb 09 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,mg 12 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM
Les in Chorlton 13 Feb 09 - 03:00 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM
ard mhacha 13 Feb 09 - 04:56 AM
Ptarmigan 13 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM
ard mhacha 13 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM
ard mhacha 13 Feb 09 - 07:00 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Feb 09 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 09 - 10:07 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM
meself 13 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM
meself 13 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 09 - 11:51 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM
Terry McDonald 13 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM
meself 13 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM
ard mhacha 13 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM
skipy 13 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,gues 23 Feb 09 - 08:03 PM
Goose Gander 12 Mar 09 - 03:54 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM
Goose Gander 13 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 09 - 04:42 AM
Goose Gander 14 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM
Murray MacLeod 14 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM
meself 15 Mar 09 - 09:07 AM
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Subject: The Day the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

The music is dying in Pakistan, being strangled to death by right-wing extremists terrified that some joy might leak into the world.

Talk about inhuman oppressive insanity.


A


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM

scary what people will do in the name of their particular version of their religion.

on of my acquaintance used to sing a sing about a young Australian Muslin girl who loved singing, and her internal struggle when she reached puberty & started wearing the veil, and was not allowed by her family to sing in public.

sandra


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM

That is horrible, esp. in such a region which has such a rich history of culture,including music.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM

Bastards


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:40 PM

The same thing happened in Afghanistan when the Taliban took over. I happened across a TV documentary about the celebrations that broke out after the Taliban's defeat. Musicians were weeping openly with joy.

It's one thing to preach that Western influences are to be avoided, but quite another to suppress one's own traditions.

Fundamentalist totalitarians of any stripe must never be allowed to hold power anywhere.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Gedi
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:36 AM

"Fundamentalist totalitarians of any stripe must never be allowed to hold power anywhere".

Amen to that

Ged


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:52 AM

Agreed, its not the Muslim religion per se, rather a regime which interprets it thus as part've its sphere of control


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: bankley
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

can't have folks expressing themselves with the arts..., peace might break out

(at least for the length of the song)


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:54 AM

This is such a shame, especially since during the golden age of Islam music and the arts were supported and flourished. There have been some Christian sects that, if they'd gotten their way, would have seen to it that music was repressed too.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:47 AM

"Fundamentalist totalitarians of any stripe must never be allowed to hold power anywhere".

Trouble is, they usually WANT power more than anyone else does ...


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:03 AM

Please read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It helps to clarify much and parts of it are really funny

L in C


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM

If you wish to find out more about the diverse music of Pakistan, this link will keep you busy for a while!

Music of Pakistan

I'd be reluctant to mention any Pakistani musicians by name hear, but here's a brilliant musician from India, that those Bastards can't touch!

Ravi Shankar

Can you imagine our World without this amazing music?


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:31 AM

FWIW I think that freedom to make and enjoy music is an absolute human right, not just determined by culture.
Also the right of girls as well as boys to an education.

So what should our attitude be to those who seek to deny those rights by threat and use of murder and violence.

Again FWIW I believe we should support and defend those who are resisting.
Most posters on Mudcat argue that it is not our business.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:42 AM

Scottish music almost suffered the same fate when the Protestant reformers banned all music, except for the Sunday hymns in the Kirk. Thanks to the Islands that didn`t conform the music survived, this continued until recent times.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:47 AM

Also Wales.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM

"this continued until recent times." ???

Scottish Reformation 1560.

ard mhacha. I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that there's actually been quite a lot of music played on the mainland of Scotland, during the last four & a half centuries, apart from Sunday Hymns!


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM

Qawwali, Sufi Muslim devotional music from Pakistan, is one of the most joyous and hypnotic sounds I have ever had the pleasure to hear.

Can I share these?

Aziz Mian

Faiz Ali Faiz

And especially, this classic:

nusrat fateh ali khan Allah Hoo pt 1

nusrat fateh ali khan Allah Hoo pt 2

Magical stuff!


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Sir Compton MacKenzie recalled on his returning to his island home in Barra the lamps from the home dotted around the Island, he heard the music coming out across the water, he noted on his journey the lack of sound from some of the other islands, they were of course under the stern discipline of the Kirk.
MacKenzie loved his Sunday evenings on Barra when Ceilidhs were a regular feature, he detested the rigid hand of the Presbyterians in supressing the traditional music in the islands under their control, this was in the the 1930s.
I would say you may have heard the odd song or bits of music on the Scottish mainland, but it is a well known fact that the fiddle was regarded by the Calvinists as an instrument of the devil.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

I clicked Amos' link in the first post and things froze. I had to reboot and Norton advised me of a security risk... dunno much about that stuff... just reporting what happened.

So.... subjugation of the poor, the oppressed... nuke em til they glow?


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

There's quite a lot in common between the Taliban/Wahabist Reformers and the Calvinist Reformers, back in the day.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM

"scary what people will do in the name of their particular version of their religion. "
Within living memory in rural areas of Ireland, local people used to gather regularly at a local crossroads to hold open-air dances (crossroads dances).
A number of elderly people have described priests breaking up these gatherings, confiscating and often destroying instruments and humiliating those attending by reading their name of those attending from the pulpit on a Sunday morning.
One singer we know had her eardrum burst as a child by a blow from a priest who 'boxed her ears' for attending one of these dances.
The attitude of the clergy also extended to the main source of enjoyment in the countryside, the 'country-house dances' - private get-togethers of neighbours in each others homes to dance, sing and play music.
In 1935 the Government introduced 'The Public Dance-Halls Act', requiring all such gatherings to pay a tax. This was enforced by a combination of the Gardi (Police) and the clergy.
The final result was to more-or-less end these events and force the people into the newly-established dance-halls (often run and profited by from by the church).
Let's not be too complacent when we talk about foreign and distant places in past times; Christianity has played its part in destroying, or seeking to control music for its own purposes; particularly the music of the people.
Jim Carroll

To be read, until further notice, at the principal Masses, in all Churches on the first Sunday of each Quarter of the Ecclesiastical Year.
EVILS OF DANCING
Statement of the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland issued at their Meeting, held in Maynooth, on 6th October,
1925. We have a word of entreaty, advice and instruction, to speak to our flocks on a very grave subject. There is danger of losing the name which the chivalrous honour of Irish boys and the Christian reserve of Irish maidens had won for Ireland. If our people part with the character that gave rise to that name, we lose with it much of our national strength, and still more of the high rank we have held in the Kingdom of Christ.
Purity is strength, and purity and faith go together. Both virtues are in danger these times, but purity is more directly assailed than faith. The danger comes from pictures and papers and drink. It comes more from the keeping of improper company than from any other cause; and there is no worse fomenter of this great evil than the dancing hall. We know too well the fruits of these halls all over the country. It is nothing new, alas, to find Irish girls now and then brought to shame, and retiring to the refuge of institutions or the dens of great cities. 'But dancing halls, more especially, in the general uncontrol of recent years have deplorably aggravated the ruin of virtue due to ordinary human weakness. They have brought many a good, innocent girl into sin, shame and scandal, and set her unwary feet on the road that leads to perdition.
Given a few frivolous young people in a locality and a few careless parents, and the agents of the wicked one will come there to do the rest, once a dance is announced without proper control. They may lower or destroy the moral tone of the whole countryside.
Action has to be taken while the character of the people as a whole is still sound to stop the dangerous laxity that has been creeping into town and country.
Amusement is legitimate, though some of our people are overgiven to play. What, however, we condemn is sin and the dangerous occasions of sin. Wherever these exist, amusement is not legitimate. It does not deserve the name of amusement among Christians. It is the sport of the evil spirit for those who have no true self-respect. The occasions of sin and sin itself are the attendants of night dances in particular. There may be and are exceptions, but they are comparatively few.
To say nothing of the special danger of drink, imported dances of an evil kind, the surroundings of the dancing hall, withdrawal from the hall for intervals, and the dark ways home have been the destruction of virtue in every part of Ireland.
The dancing of dubious dances on Sunday, more particularly by persons dazed with drink, amounts to woeful desecration of the Lord's Day wherever it takes place.
Against such abuses, duty to God and love of our people compel us to speak out. And what we have to say each for his own diocese, is that we altogether condemn the dangerous occasions, the snares, the unchristian practices to which we have referred.
Very earnestly do we trust that it may not be necessary for us to go further.
Our young people can have plenty of worthy dancing with proper supervision, and return home at a reasonable hour. Only in special circumstances under most careful control, are all-night dances permissible.
It is no small commendation of Irish dances that they cannot be danced for long hours. That, however, is not their chief merit, and, while it is no part of our business to condemn any decent dance, Irish dances are not to be put out of the place, that is their due, in any educational establishment under our care. They may not be the fashion in London or Paris. They should be the fashion in Ireland. Irish dances do not make degenerates. We well know how so many of our people have of late been awaiting such a declaration as we now issue. Until otherwise arranged it is to be read at the principal Mass on the first Sunday of each Quarter of the Ecclesiastical Year. The priests will confer with responsible parishioners as regards the means by which it will be fully carried into effect. "And may the God of Peace Himself sanctify you in all things, that your whole spirit and soul and body may be blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Thess. V. 23).
(Signed),
Patrick O'Donnell, Archbishop of Armagh, Chairman.
Robert Browne, Bishop of Cloyne,
Thomas O'Doherty, Bishop of Galway Secretaries.
6* October, 1925.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM

If you delve further I would say that religious sects throughout Europe would have suppressed music especially after the Reformation.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: breezy
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:09 AM

Thanks Jim , it does no harm to remind us.

Oh how fortunate we are to have 'freedoms'


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:15 AM

The music was irresistible in Ireland, the Highlands and Islands, music was the winner, the recent BBC programme, The Highland Sessions, combining Ireland and Scotlands best musicians was further proof that the religious die-hards were well and truly beaten.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM

"the religious die-hards were well and truly beaten."
Only partly true in Ireland Ard Mhacha.
The acute decline in Irish music in the first part of the 20th century can be laid largely at the door of emigration, but the church and state played a not-insignificant part in its disappearance.
Luckily some musicians persisted, but many of the ones we spoke to still expressed guilt (what the church does best here) for continuing to play - having swallowed the line that unsupervised (by the clergy) gatherings led to licentiousness and sinful behaviour.
Some years ago we were at a talk/recital by an extremely devout local veteran fiddle player who spoke with warmth about the country house dances, and punctuated his talk with "And my curse on those who destroyed them" - addressed directly to the priests and nuns sitting in the front row.
I often wonder if the paucity of genuine erotic and bawdy songs in the Irish repertoire is not directly due to the influence of the church.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

Thanks Jim, well put, generates much thought ..............

I may have mentionaed this before?

Please read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It helps to clarify much and parts of it are really funny

L in C


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM

Of course we all know that the jolly old Catholics went the whole hog on the Iberian peninsula & persecuted Muslims & Jews as well as Protestants, but does anyone know if they outlawed or censored any forms of music, into the bargain?


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:15 PM

Jim I have been around Ireland a long time and the upsurge in traditional music from the 1960s has been amazing.
I have been to lots of Scors the music and arts competition run by the GAA and seen and heard young people who have by far exceeded their elders in all aspects of musical skills.
I have talked to people who took part in Fleadhs in the 1960s and they graciously conceded that they wouldn`t stand a chance with the young competitors, what does this tell you?, it certainly convinces me that our music is going in the right direction.
Jim how long have you lived in Ireland?, picking holes in all and sundry seems to be a favourite past time of yours, brighten up Jim you will be an old curmudgeon soon enough.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

For an insight into the activities of Scor, Google GAA Scor Music and Dancing, every county in Ireland plays their part in promoting this wonderful competition.
Year after year young talented musicians, singers and dancers are introduced to an appreciative public. anyone visiting Ireland should put this in their diary.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM

"I often wonder if the paucity of genuine erotic and bawdy songs in the Irish repertoire is not directly due to the influence of the church."

Hey Jim, nobody wrote more Bawdy songs than Robert Burns. Do you think perhaps they were also written as a direct result of the activities & attitudes of his local Churchmen? :-)

As for the upsurge in the number of young musicians in Ireland. I'm used to hearing & reading that this is all down to the activities of Comhaltas. Now your telling me Ard, that in fact it's all down to the activities of Scor.

Scotland doesn't have Comhaltas or Scor & yet it has seen the same revival in interest in Traditional Music. What does that tell you?

It tells me that the revival was going to happen anyway, with or without the interference of Scor & Comhaltas who have, as far as I can see, largely been responsible for instilling very unfortunate competitive attitudes in the minds of so many of these young musicians.

I only hope that most of them will be able to grow up & away from these unfortunate attitudes!

They, CCE & SCOR, should never have been allowed to develop Music as a Sport in Ireland! :-(

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

Some of the folks posting to this thread seem to be laboring under the illusion that religion - as a rule - suppresses music. Dumb, dumb, dumb, people. For every example Jim or Les can cite about a priest here or a cleric there keeping a lid on song and dance, I (or anyone else) could multiple examples of religious faith inspiring music and people of faith creating music.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

Ptarmigan,I should have added in addition to Comhaltas Scor deserves great credit for a wonderful effort over the past 40 years, believe me there is no shortage of musical talent in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:37 PM

Right, Michael. All one need mention is one name: Johann Sebastian Bach. And then, of course, there are such works as Handel's Messiah. And God knows how many masses, motets, and requiems written by legions of top-drawer composers throughout history. The idea that religion suppresses music just doesn't wash.

This cut of the last part of Mozart's Exultate Jubilate, sung exuberantly by Italian mezzo-soprano Cecilia Bartoli, is an expression of sheer joy—inspired by a religious theme.

There are, of course, the fundy freak-shows orbiting around various religion beliefs, but dangerous as they can be, they are an aberration, and do not represent the main stream belief systems.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Watch as St. Patrick's day approaches here. You will undoubtedly be able to witness music being killed..right here on Mudcat without leaving your home..what little bit of Irish-American music specific to St. Patrick's Day still remains. It has been strangled for years for years and almost breathes its last. Snobbery more than religious fanaticism of course.

Sorry it has to happen in other countries. mg


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:00 AM

I don't think anybody was making the point that all religion suppresses all music all the time but that it was not simply Islam that is guilty.

L in C


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:46 AM

Ard Mhacha.
My family are Irish, were part of the emigrations and have been travelling back and forth across the Irish Sea for the last century and a half.
I have been recording, and particularly interviewing the older singers, musicians and storytellers since the beginning of the 1970s and ten years ago we moved here to West Clare permanently to be part of the music scene here; I am presently helping to set up a Clare-based traditional music archive/resource centre. Our collection is housed at The National Sound Archive (British Library), Irish Traditional Music Archive (Merrion Square, Dublin) and The Irish Folklore Department (University College, Dublin).
Details of our work in relation to The British Library can be found on the archive page of The Living Tradition Magazine under 'The Pat Mackenzie/Jim Carroll Collection'. Any 'hole-picking' I might do is based on a little bit of work, but I will happily compare it to to your own researches - though I have neither the desire, nor the intention of getting into an "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" argument - pissing competitions are for the back of the bike-shed.
The present phenomenon of popularity of Irish music is a relatively recent one - you might have seen Kevin Glackin (Paddy's brother), not so long ago on television talking about having to hide his fiddle under his coat for fear of being ridiculed for playing 'diddley-di music' (still a fairly common phrase on the media), or, in the same programme, elderly musicians describing having been ejected out of pubs for producing a musical instrument. In the fifties the music thrived in places like London and Liverpool while it dwindled to almost nothing back home. I await with some interest Reg Hall's forthcoming book on the subject.
Veteran Clare fiddle player Junior Crehan spoke at great length (Beoloidas Magazine of the Folklore Dept) about 'dying of loneliness' in the forties, fifties and sixties because all his fellow musicians had emigrated to England.
It is true that Comhaltas kept alive an institutionalised form of the music, but rather managed to nause that up by forcing it into the 'competition straitjacket' - back in the UK I saw more youngsters than I can bear to remember throw their instruments away forever when they came of age because they never won the 'glittering prizes'.
The greatest and most influential authority on Irish Music, Breandán Breathnach researched, spoke and wrote on the effect that the church had on Irish music - his article on the subject is to be found on the Oidreacht an Chláir (Clare Heritage) web-site in the Clare magazine Dal gCaís section.
Ptarmigan;
The church in Burn's Scotland drove the music underground where it thrived; in Ireland and in Wales it had the opposite effect and all but destroyed it.
Michael:
"a priest here or a cleric there keeping a lid on song and dance"
It wasn't an individual decision on the part of the clergy - it was official church policy - I didn't make up the Bishops Edict I posted earlier - that was telling it as it was. Nor did I make up the role played by the church in drawing up and enforcing the Dancehalls Act - it's a matter of public knowledge and record, including The Catholic Directory of 1924.
To well within living memory the church actively opposed any music and singing which they considered sinful and licentious - traditional music fell well within that category.
I have a limited knowledge of traditions outside these islands bt I do know of blues musicians who abandoned their music (often under heavy persuasion) to serve god.
This is not to say that some of the music the church did approve of wasn't worthy and enjoyable (take a listen to the Hebridean Psalm singing for instance), but quite often they acutely damaged and even destroyed the indigenously produced version. Their field of 'approval' was extremely narrow, restrictive and destructive.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:56 AM

Jim,When I was a schoolboy over 60 years ago, in most parts of Ireland the music of our country was buried beneath a deluge of US pop, from morning to night it was on the Wireless, the only few sparks shining through was a BBC programme on a Sunday morning featuring Seamus Ennis and a few English folk musicians, also Radio Eireann had Ceol de Phasti with Ciarian Mac Mathuna 5-15 on a Sunday afternoon, those apart, there was damm all else.

In the 1960s along came the folk groups the people that resurrected our music,the much maligned groups castigated by the musical snobs who were nowhere to be seen when the music was almost dead and buried.

I find it incredible that even yet we have these know-alls who can never realise what it was like in the 1940s and 50s, Jim I heard people being laughed at at weddings or `big nights` if they attempted to sing a come-all-ye,what a change to-day, go on to You Tube and listen to great traditional music and song, this was unheard off when I was young.

So please don`t preach to me of the dearth of music in this present day, long may I continue to hear of families with no back-ground in traditional music, yet these children, lots now adults, make their parents and grandparents proud when they play for them.

How did this great revival come about?, through Comhaltas, Scor and the great love of traditional music inherit in the vast majority of Irish people, I will continue to praise everyone associated with this, long may it continue.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM

"the great love of traditional music inherit in the vast majority of Irish people"

Sad to say ard mhacha, but I think you'll find, the truth of the matter is, that the vast majority of Irish people are actually much, much more interested in Country Music, Country & Western Music & worst of all Irish Country Music! :-)

For a reality check, see just how many Traditional Irish artist CDs there are in the Top 100 Albums in Ireland today

I'm afraid Trad has a long way to go, to win over the masses! :-(

As for giving Comhaltas & Scor all the credit, I think you'll find it was going to happen anyway, with or without their help ......... or interference:

"After an American folk music revival in the 1950s, a wave of roots revival swept the world in the 1960s and 70s."

Roots Revival

Cheers
Dick


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM

Dick have you ever been to a Fleadh try it sometime, but my advice to you is book up early, come over and tell me that traditional music is a poor second,those many thousands of music lovers at the many Fleadhs don`t give me the impression that OUR MUSIC is floundering.
I can go to my local Gaelic League to-night and listen to great musicians happily playing away without the aid of the
`hard stuff`.
Irish traditional music has now such a hold that amount of nit-picking will alter that fact.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:00 AM

Sorry Karachi we will be back to you later.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:47 AM

I went to a local Catholic Social Club to check booking a room. The Steward explained that we couldn't have Saturdays because it was Country Night - very popular with the older generation of Irish / Mancunians. I asked if the ever had traditional Irish music on. He said not here, that's more popular with the younger, wilder set - try St Kentigern's!

But I have to say that although Country and Irish is popular amongst the older Irish /Mancunians, in 30 years I have yet to find many people of Irish extraction who do not know and love traditional songs and tunes from Ireland.

L in C


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM

"So please don`t preach to me of the dearth of music in this present day, "
Ard Mhacha
Any small knowledge I might have of Irish traditional music has been gathered from older musicians who were there. I am grateful to their willingness to share their knowledge, experiences and opinions and have always been happy to pass on that information to anybody interested.
Nobody has 'all' the answers to Irish music, past, present or future, and any chance we have of expand our knowledge depends our pooling of what we do know, or think we know - it certainly doesn't need the somewhat belligerent "don't try and tell me....." attitude which appears to be your stock-in-trade.
Comhaltas branches did great work in the lean days of Irish music, especially in the field of teaching, but nowadays they have been overtaken by others, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, The Folklore Department, Na Píobrarí Uilleann, The Willie Clancy Summer School, all of whom have played an important role in making sure that the music will be played and listened to by the next generation.
It is these who have filled gaps left by Comhaltas, such as providing archives and study centres, publishing the results of research and field work and, above all, breaking the destructive 'competition' mindset. Comhaltas, throughout its long lifetime has singularly failed to establish an accessible archive of music and song; nor has it given us a half decent journal, the regular in-house publication more resembling Ireland's Own than a serious source of information.
A Comhaltas official here told me recently that his organisation is going to have to run if it is to even catch up with what is happening today on the Irish music scene, let alnoe play an important part in it. I feel this is particularly true now that it has gone into the business of 'property seizure'.
If you want to discuss Irish music, please feel free to do so, but please try to do so with a little humility - we're all in the process of learning.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM

Fair point or what?

L in C


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:07 AM

Hi Les,
During my four years in Manchester (I think you said Chorlton-Cum-Hardy - late 60s), I was lucky enough to have been introduced to Felix Doran's music via the Connolly Association there.
He used to play on Sunday mornings around the corner from my flat, in Lloyd's, which I seem to remember you said was still there.
We recorded a brutal story from Travellers who witnessed Felix playing in Lloyds, and when a drunken piano player tried to join in, had is fingers smashed by the piano lid.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

Hi Jim,

you wouldn't recognise the Lloyds, although the outside is more or less the same. Their is a great Irish Session on Monday evenings - as good as it gets mostly.

I think it could be time for field work in Chorlton / Manchester before we say good bye to the older generation. Not sure about songs and tunes but I bet some amazing stories.

Cheers

Les


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: meself
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

Back to the matter of the RC clergy: just for the record, a number of priests have been front and centre in the 'revival' of Cape Breton fiddle and dance for the last fifty years. In Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island, at least, it is not unusual at all to see the local priest get up and give a step at a fiddling event, if he is not playing. While there are a few - not many - stories from earlier days of priests repressing fiddling from earlier days, it does not seem to have been a widely-enforced policy, as it apparently was in Ireland.

I never heard of any repression of fiddling on the part of the Presbyterian clergy in Cape Breton - but the playing of anything but religious music was proscribed on the Sabbath. Some say that that led to story-telling as opposed to fiddling becoming a particularly strong folk-art in the Protestant communities.

(All this is my impression from my direct experience, conversation, and a bit of reading, but no real research).


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: meself
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

I might add that in the Protestant communities, the Temperance movement no doubt had a stifling effect on fiddling, since there seemed often to have been an association of fiddling - or more particularly, specific fiddlers - with excessive consumption of alcohol. Furthermore, some Protestant sects regarded dancing as sinful; they would be unlikely to encourage dance music.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:51 AM

The clergy's attitude to the music here nowadays is a more-or-less benevolent one, though it should be said that the church's power has been severely curtailed following the paedophila/sadism scandals.
There used to be stories circulating of the Appalachian dulcimer because of its shape (supposed to have resembled that of a woman). I wonder if there is any infor4mation on that from the US?
I believe it was practice in Victorian times to cover piano legs because of their shape.
Jim Carroll
Les:
There used to be an excellent session in The Ducie in Salford, but I believe that fell victim to modernisation.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

Their were indeed singers and tune sessions in the Ducie near the back of the University in Manchester, also the Salutation near the College of Music (!) and sessions continue in the Jolly Angler to the north of Piccadilly Station.

Les


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

The covering of piano legs by the Victorians is one of those myths that people love to perpetuate. The suggestion that piano legs should be covered was usually a tongue in cheek remark/drawing by humorous writers or cartoonists in order to mock middle class manners. I#m quite prepared to believe some people were daft enought to do it but it certainly wasn't the norm.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: meself
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM

I read somewhere of the covering-of-piano-legs myth stemming from a particular satire of the time, a play, I believe. Can't for the life of me remember who the writer was, though! (A 'minor' one).


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

Jim, Did I read that right you tell me to have a little humilty, anyone reading your posts in that long-winded Clontarf Thread can see your attitude to anyone who has a different viewpoint, you don`t give me the impression of being humble, you have to laugh.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM

"you have to laugh."
No - you have to respond to the points made, which you are busily avoiding here - as you did over the land-grab, but readers can make up their own minds by reading through the thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: skipy
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:07 PM

Peppers and tomatoes
Skipy


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: GUEST,gues
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:03 PM

99% of young people in Ireland today follow popular music. I attended two "Stag Nights" in Dublin last year and I have to say the city is buzzing. Their nightclubs are right up there with London, Manchester and Leeds. Great country, great people and great memories.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 03:54 PM

There is no way to make generalized statements on this topic. Even in the narrowest of circumstances, there can a variety of attitudes and experiences. Example: Protestants in the upper South. Hardline Baptists have had a long-standing opposition to singing, dancing, etc. On the other hand, the Holiness churches possitively embrace music and ectatic motion (dancin'), even using electric guitars in church. Jim, I'm sorry to hear that about the Catholic Church in Ireland and the suppression of music, but I don't think you can draw a parallel with blues musicians who voluntarily gave up 'sinful' music (usually taking up sacred music in its place). And it is condescending and offensive in this context reference 'god' rather than God.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM

Michael,
Non believing in gods - any gods (and there are many to choose from), I see no reason to regard the word as needing a capital letter.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Goose Gander
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

If the singer does, and you're referring to his or her work, I believe it shows disrespect to not capitalize the first letter of the noun.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:42 AM

Michael,
Probably not the best time to discuss mt attitude to religion.
Last night I watched a harrowingly brilliant documentary, (Occupation 101) in which a group of people slaughtered maimed, crippled, debased and impoverished other people, men women, and children, young and old , in the name of their god.
There was no sign whatever that he, she or it gave a shit one way or another what was going on in his, her or its name.
Doesn't engender respect - not from me anyway.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 05:38 AM

Jim -

I'm sorry you can't make a distinction between someone drawing musical inspiration from their faith and someone else killing for their faith. You're painting with quite a broad brush, and you're making generalizations that cannot be sustained. Do you believe that Pol Pot, Cambodia, etc. discredits all agrarians, or all atheists? I suspect not, but correct me if I am wrong.

Going back to the original subject of this thread (which I probably should have left dormant), neither Islam nor Christianity nor any other faith I can think of is categorically in favor of or hostile to music. You have to look at specific examples, look at the context. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming what you despise the most - a bigot.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:10 AM

Michael,
Sorry if I have offended your beliefs - it really was not my intention to. I'm a little touchy on the subject for all sorts of complicated reasons, some to do with family experiences. Be happy to discuss with you off -line.
Regarding music; my experience and knowledge only stretches to what happened here in Ireland, particularly in the first half of the 20th century, where the church took an extremely active part in attempting to crush Irish traditional music, one of the reasons being that they could not control it.
Will be happy to continue this discussion - minus the religious polemics which have not part in this thread.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM

having been raised in the Free Church of Scotland, I can testify that the ministers of the Free Kirk were passionately opposed to sex, from fear that it might lead to dancing.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

Anybody with any doubts about the attitude of the church towards Irish dancing - from Fintan Vallely'd Companion To Irish Traditional Music
Jim Carroll

Dance Halls Act. (Public Dance Halls Act 1935). Houses and crossroads - where Irish music was played and sets danced - had been the main venues for social dance in Ireland prior to 1935. Indeed these still operated into the 1950s, especially for the 'wren' and American wakes. House dances were often fund-raisers - generally 'benefits' or for the fun of it, but sometimes for political groups - and they could be held in anyone's house, perhaps that of a host not favoured by church or law. Neither they nor cross-roads dancing could conveniently be morally or legally policed by clergy or Gardaí. However, they could not have generated so much antipathy as modern, popular music. For in addition, emigration and the beginnings of recorded (commercial/ popular) music combined to give 'foreign' music genres like two-step, fox-trot and shimmy-shake a currency in Ireland. Private, commercial dance halls had been opened to capitalise on the new fashion but zealous Gaelic-Leaguers perceived this as undermining Irish culture. Catholic clergy damned 'all-night dances', and also saw these modern dances as 'imported from other countries and are, if not absolutely improper, on the borderline of Christian modesty' (Irish Catholic Directory, 1924), and more stridently 'importations from the vilest dens of London, Paris and New York, direct and unmistakable incitements to evil thoughts and evil desires'. In addition, there was also some concern among the authorities about the hazards of overcrowding in unsupervised premises, and about organisations such as the IRA running events to raise money. The issue became a battle for control. Religious and political forces combined to demand licensing of dancing. Intensely conservative lobbying was engaged in by the Church, this resulting in the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935. Under this, dancing required a licence, this would only be given to persons approved of by a district judge, and failure to comply was a criminal offence. Over-zealous, vigilante-style enforcement of the Act by some clergy destroyed social, non-commercial house dancing in many areas, and this, combined with the clergy opening their own halls for commercial, but morally supervised dancing, gradually shifted the social dance from private space to public. Many argue that this destroyed music, and terminally discouraged players. But it created the 'band', the céilí band in particular, as the mainstay of music for dancing in Ireland, so opening a new chapter in Irish music history. Demands of dancing in large spaces also altered the performance style of music: it did not require solo and duet playing, it sacrificed rhythm to beat, impersonalised the musicians, prioritised music-making over social occasion and obliged musicians to learn other forms of music demanded by the modern venue. Accordion became important, for volume, this diminishing the status of the subtlety inherent in, say, expert fiddle playing. Dancers were thus separated from the process of music-making, standards of appreciation declined, musicians lost local importance, became discouraged and many abandoned playing in a competitive era in which supply was greater than demand. This period was full of intense political passions in the country, and licensing decisions could be controversial, as could the hiring of particular céilí bands.


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Subject: RE: TheDay the Music Was Killed--Pakistan
From: meself
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 09:07 AM

If you will allow me, I think there's a bit that bears repeating for the benefit of those who skip past the previous excerpt due to its length. These sentences are as succinct an explanation of how changing social conditions can change musical traditions as I've ever read:

"Demands of dancing in large spaces also altered the performance style of music: it did not require solo and duet playing, it sacrificed rhythm to beat, impersonalised the musicians, prioritised music-making over social occasion and obliged musicians to learn other forms of music demanded by the modern venue. Accordion became important, for volume, this diminishing the status of the subtlety inherent in, say, expert fiddle playing. Dancers were thus separated from the process of music-making, standards of appreciation declined, musicians lost local importance, became discouraged and many abandoned playing in a competitive era in which supply was greater than demand."


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