conflict during (American) revolution

Subject: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 01:42 PM

Hi Folks. My friend Dianne Myers is visiting and I wanted to show her some of the wonders of mudcat. (She's been a long time supporter of folk music in Toronto)
She asked if any Catters knew of songs that touched on the conflict between American Privateers and Nova Scotia fishermen around the time of the American Revolution. It apparently has an element of irony in it as many of the residents of western Nova Scotia had recently migrated from New England and apparently sympathized with the Colonists.
'Fraid I can't help her so I thought I'd throw it out here.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: John Hindsill
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 02:19 PM

Rick - Can't help your friend, sorry. But your statement that clonial American immigrants to Nova Scotia sympathized with the Colonials has me puzzled. We, at least I, were taught that many colonists left the lower 13 because they were not in sympathy with the Revolution; these were Loyalists or Tories. If others have opinions, I would love to learn.---John

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 04:03 PM

Since catspaw's pickin' down in the fambly room I couldn't hep mysef but to be a usin' this here pooter and seein' whatuz goin on and right off I foun this here thread and I got some stuff what'll be right hepfull to'un yer fren there Rick.

Now awhile back when I wuz at that Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed, I had this feller in my tiple band who had a story 'bout this very thang. Seems as how hisn great-great-great-great-great-great grampaw and gramma wuz on one of them boats. Yuh know I never cud figger out that great biznus. I mean I got me one of the great grampaw guys and all that my granpappy use to say bout him was he was poor and a drunk. Dunno' what made him great. Guess when granpap wuzns a boy they couldn't even afford to buy him a kite and cud only afford to rent him one instead. Granpappy give me a pitcher of great grampaw standin' out front the local tavern when he wuz hirin a kite.

Ennyhow a gettin back to my tiplin buddy Gaylord. He sez that his reltivs were a cook and deckhand and I guess she wuz purty fat cuz they stuck her up in the riggin to get some xtry speed up soaz they cud out run that other boat. But it seems as how that othern boat got a right fine shot off and his granmaw Nell took a big load a shot square up her bunghole. Well it seems she fell to the deck an busted both her legs too an as the boat was heelin' over right bad, she went a slidin' cross the deck. Her husband was belayin' a line down on the looerd gunnell an as she went flyin past she made a grab for him and snagged him by the gonads. He wuz a might surprised but when he saw the fix she was in he screamed, "Hang on My Balls Nellie, Hang on My Balls!" But jist then a big wave cumma worshin' down the deck and he lost his grip an they both went to Ol' Davy Jones locker. Another sailor saw the whole sad thang an rit up a song atellin' bout it. Then a few years later, Gaylord sez somebody else stole the tune an changed some of the lines roun an it become some othern song called "Hang on the Bell Nellie."

Now Rick, catspaw sez this is sumpin' called the foke process, but I think it souns more like jist plain steelin whichn I doan holt no truck with.

Sorry, gotta' go. Think catspaw's on his way in.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 04:14 PM

Well for the love of God....I'm so sorry Rick. Let me extend my sincerest and most abject apologies to both you and your friend. I AM going to change the password tomorrow so I should have no more problems. ...And he double posted too.

Truly Rick...I'm sorry. (But you did want your friend to get a feel for Mudcat)

cayspaw

Double posting deleted. Once is enough, hey?<br>
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: rich r
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 04:42 PM

I recall reading in some long historical tome some years ago that indeed the sea coasters of eastern Canada were rather sympathetic to the colonists at the time of the revolution and that the rebelling colonists managed to antagonize them and lose what could have been a significant asset in the revolution by their generally boorish and bellicose behavior. I would have to return to the library for further details. It may have been in a multi volume history of Canada. It certainly down't come up in the standard US history books, b7ut may in some specialized ones. There is thus a grain of history in "Barret's Privateers" which of course was written 200 years after the fact.

rich r

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 06:08 PM

Hi John. Dianne (who has New England roots) tells me that it was only recently she discovered that a goodly chunk of the Nova Scotians actually emigrated from New England at the behest of Great Britain prior to the revolutionary war, and were encouraged to fish, farm and generally populate the area. They apparently had no political arguments with the Colonialists and felt that they should have had some protection from the privateers. Dianne will be joining Mudcat shortly and will give further information about this and what her sources were.

P.S. A silly question perhaps, but can someone tell me exactly what a "Privateer" was and how they operated.
rick

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 07:25 PM

Hi Rick, a Privateer would have the permission ( a license or a letter of Marque) of their respective governments to plunder & pillage any vessels flying a flag of a nation hostile to their own or even to the point of streching it to a nation sympathetic to a hostile nation. Stan's song shows a Canadian vessel with a letter of Marque trying to pluder American vessels, this is privateering not piracy. Captain Kid started off, in his "Adventure Galley" of 34 guns, as a privateer (a very unsuccesseful one) he did turn to piracy in the taking of one large quarry a ship under a French passport. He tried like hell to clear himself stating he'd recieved permission to pluder ships of unfriendly nations (unfriendly towards the British). The Queen & then government for political reasons found it better not to back his claim & declear him a pirate, in Boston the merchants wanted & did claim any & all valuables they could get their hands on & to then quickly ship him in irons to England, broke & unable to mount a fair defense, where the people were ripe for a good old time hanging, they did have to hang him twice & then left his body to rot in a gibbet for 2 years. Privateering didn't pay (except maybe in Drake's case) where as priacy seemed to pay better. Barry

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: John Hindsill
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 07:53 PM

Barry Finn has it pretty much right, privateers were sort of licensed pirates. There is a series of four novels by F. van Wyck Mason written in the early 1940s about the American Revolution. The protagonist in the first novel, who reappears in the middle volumes and then has a major role in the final tome, is an American privateer against the British. These novels, which I read in order in the '50s were first rate, well-researched and really gave the flavor of the period. Just as in real-life, the rebellionists won. Anyone interest in that period should try to find these books.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 07:54 PM

Barry explained it well, but when Karen asked the same question about privateers, the easiest thing I could think of was "mercenary sailors" instead of soldiers.

catspaw

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 08:06 PM

...when I was a wee girl, Privateers were a class of sleek sailboats on the Great Lakes, named after the originals of course! They shined with varnished gunnals and sailed low in the water. They often won the lake races and always did well in the Mackinac Races. Right Cap'n Bob and Norfolk?...harpgirl

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 09:28 PM

Thanks folks. I know I could read the books or probably find a website for these questions, but if someone doesn't mind:

When did privateering go out of fashion? Did any of them become totally legit and get medals or govt. positions? Thanks again.
rick

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 09:43 PM

Hi, Rick - you might find the Canadian Privateer Home Page interesting. Maybe they're still recruiting, and you can enlist. Heck, it must pay better than being a folk musician.

Oh, and here's a nice-looking Pirate Site.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:00 PM

Thanks Joe. There is NOTHING that pays less than folk music. Even actors earn more. Perhaps this thread represents my sub-conscious desire to BE a privateer.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Lesley N.
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:07 PM

Bit late here - back to the sympathies of Nova Scotia..

AFTER the American Revolution some 50,000 colonists who were loyal to the British crown migrated to Canada - mainly to Nova Scotia and Quebec. They are refered to as United Empire Loyalists. There is an interesting page here.

During the War of 1812 Americans felt that the French and former American colonists would support separation from Canada and the Empire. Didn't happen. Ironically the War did just the opposite - it was the one of the first steps in unifying the provinces. Nova Scotia became quite prosperous during the war, partly due to additional funds from Britian but also because that's where confiscated American ships and cargo were sold.

There's also a good page on the difference between pirate, privateer, buccaneer, etc. here.

Which is all not much help with songs....I'll check Helen Creighton's Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia to see if I can find anything there.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:25 PM

Well we seem to be getting closer to a song, but we sure are going batcrap on the somewhat less legitimate sailing trades. Cletus said he'd be happy to write Gaylord and get the original lyrics to the disgusting song he alluded to earlier, if it will help.

Wishing you luck...Let Cletus know.

catspaw PS--Wayne and Connie and the kids are here tonight abd they send their best. Saw the picture of you and Heather and said she looks great, but,uh,well.........Connie sends her best anyway.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:28 PM

Many royalist immigrants also migrated to the Bahamas and other British Isles in the Caribbean. I have heard that the English spoken by the white natives of the Bahamas maintains many inflections and phrasings of the English Colonies of New England.

Subject: Lyr Add: WESTERN BOAT (from Gordon Bok)
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:47 PM

Well Rick and Dianne here is one Nova Scotia fishing song which might lead to others specifically about the conflicts...

Western Boat
Let Me Fish Off Cape St,. Mary's

Take me back to my Western Boat
Let me fish off Cape St. Mary's
Where the hagdowns sail and the foghorn's wail
With my friends the Brown's and the Cleary's
In the swells off old St. Mary's.
Let me feel my dory lift
To the broad Atlantic cumbers
Where the tide-rips swirl and the wild duck furl
And the ocean calls the numbers
In the swells off old St. Mary's.
Let me sail up golden bays
With my oilskins all a-streaming
From the thunder squall where I hauled my trawl
And the old 'Cape Ann' a gleaming
In the swells off old St. Mary's.

Gordon Boks' Bay of Fundy from Folk Legacy (of course), has a number of such ballads...harpgirl

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:52 PM

Privateer's first appeared as early as the 13th century in England but it really didn't start to catch on until the late 16th century when the French & Dutch had caught on to it. In America it was big time during the revolution uptil the war of 1812, piracy & smuggling was was the prefered trade in pre revolutionary times. This was a fantastic training ground to test the waters for what would later become the Colonial Navy. Depending on where one sat would determine weither one was a pirate or a privateer. Drake was consided both as was Raleigh, Grace O'Malley, Kidd, John Paul Jones, Henry Morgan was knighted & later hunted pirates, from his writings in "Sea Grammer" maybe Captain John Smith. Privateering was finally outlawed around the time of the American Civil War. On a last note Buccaneers preyed on all except their own nation were as privateer's on onnlllyyyy those at war with their nation & pirates preyed on all & that seems to have been where the gold was. Barry

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:52 PM

..oh and he found a different version from the Mills and Peacock book "Favorite Songs of Newfoundland." That book might help you in your search..oh and is Fifteen Ships on George's Bank one of those songs??? harpgirl (over the bounding main)

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 10:59 PM

Also Leej, there was a strong loyalist migration into isolated areas surrounding Lakes Erie and Ontario and also in pockets along the Ohio River. Thirty years previous to this, many of these same places were settled by the French, giving them a very interesting history (to say the least) and some cross cultural oddities also. A strong case can be made for the Appalachian dulcimer originating about this same period in an area around Gallipolis, Ohio through just such a mixing. That's a long story, but it has a lot of documentation behind it...but that's another argument. I honestly do feel bad that I don't know a song to help out Rick here. It's an interesting period in American history, but I had not heard of the "infighting" in Nova Scotia before this.

catspaw

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 11:47 PM

Followinh Lesley's lead I found Jack Robson, #40 in Helen Creighton's collection she claims as a privateering song though it's a bit unclear where his small treasure was gained & doesn't have a thing to do with fishing at all. Sorry that I can't come up with more for you. Barry

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 11:50 PM

Dianne still hasn't appeared on Mudcat.(I probably scared her - although a small dose of Catspaw could have that effect as well) She mentioned the privateers hi-jacking the Nova Scotia fishing boats, and the residents wondering why their New England friends didn't try to prevent this. (this was pre-revolution) From what folks have shared about the mandate the privateers operated under, it doesn't strike me as much of a mystery anymore.

Bye the way, although I don't remember when the treasures were supposed to have been buried there, the story of the "Oak island gold" has always fascinated me. Anyone know if they're still looking for it?
rick

Subject: Lyr Add: A BALLAD OF JOHN SILVER (John Masefield)
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 12:28 AM

thought I'd throw in one more pirate song for the heck of it
A Ballad of John Silver

We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull
And we flew the pretty colours of the crossbones and the skull
We'd a big black Jolly Roger flapping grimly at the fore
And we sailed the Spanish Water in the happy days of yore.

We'd a long brass gun amidships, like a well-conducted ship
We each had a brace of pistols and a cutlass at the hip
It's a point which tells against us, and a fact to be deplored
But we chased the goodly merchant-men and laid their ships aboard

Then the dead men fouled the scuppers and the wounded filled the chains
And the paint-work all was splatter-dashed with other people's brains
She was boarded, she was looted, she was scuttled til she sank
And the pale survivors left us by the medium of the plank

O! then it was (while standing by the taffrail on the poop)
We could hear the drowning folk lament the absent chicken-coop
Then having washed the blood away, we'd little else to do
Than to dance a quiet hornpipe as the old salts taught us to.

O! the fiddle on the fo'c's'le, and the slavin' naked soles
And the genial "Down the middle Jake, and curtsy when she rolls!"
With the silver seas around us and the pale moon overhead
And the look-out not a lookin and his pipe-bowl glowin red.

Ah! the pig-tailed, quidding pirates and the pretty pranks we played
All have since been put a stop to by the naughty Boards of Trade
The schooners and the merry crews are laid away to rest
A little south the sunset in the Islands of the Blest.
John Masefield

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Bert
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 10:18 AM

Here's a song about a civil war privateer,

ROLL ALABAMA ROLL

Bert.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Lesley N.
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:05 AM

Helen Creighton has a tune "The Seizure of the E. J. Horton" that has to do with Canadian/American conflict over fishing rights. It's in the DT as SCHOONER E. A. HORTON (though this varies somewhat from her version).

It's MUCH later than the Revolution though - Creighton has it taking place "on the seventeenth of April, eighteen seventy-one" - the version in DT has it as "thirteenth day of October in the year of sixty-one"...

Was it Art who said, "Ballads are always right, sometimes the facts get messed up..." (Pardon me for my poor paraphrasing, no doubt Art said it much more poetically...)

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: AndyG
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:11 AM

< pedant >
re: The Alabama.
Technically not a privateer. The CSS Alabama was a vessel of the Confederate armed forces not a privately owned vessel sailing under Letters of Marque. An important distinction for any survivors.
< /pedant >

AndyG

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Bert
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:14 AM

Andy G,

Thanks, I didn't know that. I love your new HTML tags.

Bert.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: dinah
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 10:15 PM

I waited till Rick's back was turned (it's show nite) to get myself on. (I can't even find his radio station, but I managed to find you). Found the conversation very interesting. I will reply soon to John with some chapter and verse regarding the "real" history of the American conflict.

Thanks to harpgirl for the words to what I call the St. Mary's Bay song. Love it. Any other recordings?

I found the privateer website last nite and was going to give it to Rick. Someone beat me to it.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 10:27 PM

Hi dinah.........can I assume you're Rick's friend Dianne?

If so, Welcome to Mudcat......Of course, as I think about it, the above is your first post, so WELCOME anyway whoever you are!!! It's a great place and we're glad to have you.........I promise to keep Cletus away from this thing as best I can, but he seems to figure out new passwords very quickly.

catspaw

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 02:36 AM

Harpgirl- Terrific pirate poem. Arrrr, this be the life fer me! What do you think the line about the drowning folk lamenting the absent chicken-coop means?

LEJ( A pirate looks at 50)

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 08:15 AM

The "chicken-coop" thing arises from some confusion in the 19th century. It was usual on sea-going sailing vessels to carry livestock to provide fresh food on the long journeys. Chickens obviously provided eggs, and in extremity meat as well (instead?). Ducks were also popular as they layed bigger eggs, although (I think) not quite as frequently, so chickens were more common.

Now, here comes the source of the confusion ... ducks float, as everyone knows, so the duck-coop was the obvious place to make for if the ship was sinking - grab a duck and stay above the water!

And of course, they float higher in salt water - it was not unknown for sailors to con newly- recruited landsmen by making (highly illegal) bets on how far up the water would come on the duck's side; they would draw lines with felt-tip pens and mark them with their initials: of course, the landsmen would think they knew how far up the water came! This tradition still continues today in the form of the Plimsoll line.

Another idea that derives from this is the practise of floating apples in a bowl or barrel: it's known to this day as ducking for apples.

It used to be a common occurrence on British canals (see the narrowboat songs thread) for unscrupulous narrowboatmen to steal ducks and geese from house yards backing on to the canal. The irate householder often came out to see the culprit speeding off at 4 mph; they could only stand and shout "What's your game?", to which the boatman would invariably reply, "Duck off!".

Steve

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 09:16 AM

Hey Rick (we have to stop meeting like this!), I have been obsessed with Oak Island since I got a map in a box of Nabisco Shredded Wheat as a teenager! It hung on my wall for years. The last big expedition was the one in 1972 where they sent down cameras. Rupert Furneaux book -- "The Money Pit Mystery" was the best. National Geographic had a piece about it then. Since that time it has "resisted all attempts" as they say! There is an Oak Island Company that has been trying to raise money for a big new expedition for years (one of our students was a wild island pony person, and would keep me informed about latest developments). The problem is that the whole area is now a mess, and the continual flooding from the access tunnels has made new structures very difficult. The original theory was privateers in the late 1600's, but one recent theory was that the British army did it during the Revolutionary War (so it would fit into this thread). There is a great eerie picture which I lost a long time ago from the photographic expedition. Gee, haven't thought about this in years -- where are my shovel and duckboots!
Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: conflict during (American) revolution
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 09:43 AM

A simple Net search on Oak Island mystery turns up all kinds of stuff, including (are you ready!???) one theory that says down in the pit are writings that prove Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays!!! (Everything is connected). Anyway, thrills --the old map and photos of the site!
Yours, Peter T.