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Is this copyright infringement?

JWB 10 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM
greg stephens 10 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM
greg stephens 10 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM
VirginiaTam 10 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM
MMario 10 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM
Don Firth 10 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM
Malcolm Douglas 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM
JedMarum 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM
JedMarum 10 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM
VirginiaTam 10 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM
Don Firth 10 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM
DebC 10 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM
Big Mick 10 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM
Joe Offer 10 Feb 09 - 02:04 PM
JWB 10 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge having a bad day 10 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM
JohnB 10 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM
Jack Campin 10 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM
meself 10 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM
meself 10 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM
Malcolm Douglas 10 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM
greg stephens 10 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM
JWB 10 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM
M.Ted 10 Feb 09 - 03:13 PM
greg stephens 10 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 10 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM
Will Fly 10 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM
BB 10 Feb 09 - 04:08 PM
JWB 10 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM
VirginiaTam 10 Feb 09 - 04:31 PM
VirginiaTam 10 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM
Abdul The Bul Bul 10 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM
Malcolm Douglas 10 Feb 09 - 05:12 PM
DebC 10 Feb 09 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 10 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM
Howard Jones 10 Feb 09 - 06:34 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM
Jack Campin 10 Feb 09 - 08:40 PM
Peace 10 Feb 09 - 11:47 PM
meself 11 Feb 09 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,MalcomT 11 Feb 09 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,MalcomT 11 Feb 09 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,MalcomT 11 Feb 09 - 08:44 AM
DebC 11 Feb 09 - 08:51 AM
Jeri 11 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM
Tim Leaning 11 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM
Tim Leaning 11 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 11 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM
Rifleman (inactive) 11 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM
Malcolm Douglas 11 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM
JWB 11 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM
GEST 11 Feb 09 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 11 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM
Howard Jones 11 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Peace 11 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM
Don Firth 11 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM
Will Fly 12 Feb 09 - 04:05 AM
Tim Leaning 12 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM
Will Fly 12 Feb 09 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 12 Feb 09 - 07:03 AM
GEST 12 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM
Will Fly 12 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM
Barry Finn 12 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM
Rifleman (inactive) 12 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM
TheSnail 12 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM
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Subject: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JWB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM

I have just discovered that an enterprising young Englishman has taken the 24 tracks of one of my CDs and created 24 "videos" on YouTube. Each "video" uses the CD cover as the graphic, and the "soundtrack" is one track from the recording. The gent credits me and my Starboard Messmates as the artists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7QDj6oyiH4

(Sorry if this isn't a blue clicky -- I believe I followed the steps in the macro. The CD is Roast Beef of Old England, so a search on YouTube is sure to find GoodFightLad's 24 postings)

Do you think this is an infringement of copyright?

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Yes it is. It's up to you: if you value the publicity, leave them there. If you dont, have them removed.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

If, on the other hand, you put them there yourself and just wish people to look at them....well, good luck.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

Richard Bridge is the man to speak to. Even though the fellow is giving credit to you, I think it is an infringement. Now what you want to do about it is also something to think about.

You might contact the poster and either ask him to take them down or ask him to provide details where the CD can be purchased at the beginning or end of each video.

Soemtimes I wonder if people post these things and then have some sort of Peer to peer sharing if you contact them privately. They may even sell songs or whole CDs. I don't know. Might be something to try. Contact poster anonymously and see if he offers to sell you songs.

God I worry about how mistrusting I have become.

Anyway, if you get no joy you can ask YouTube moderators to remove them.

Good luck with this.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM

If done without permission - definately copyright infringement.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

What Greg says, it's your choice and YouTube will remove them but it may be good publicity. Anyone posting your stuff should have obtained your blessing but if full credit is given the intent was not to do you harm. This should work as a clickie:

JWB


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM

the intent was (probably) not to do you harm


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM

This is kind of an "iffy" one, Jerry. One the one hand, it's a bit of "chutzpah" on the part of whoever posted the songs on YouTube without consulting you or asking your permission. But—on the other hand, they obviously like and admire your singing or they wouldn't have posted them.

There is this:   By cruising YouTube, I have discovered a lot of singers that I had never heard of before, and ultimately bought CDs from some of them and a couple of song books from one group. Had I not seen them on YouTube, I would never have known that they existed.

I had something similar happen a couple of years ago. I had several articles published in a local music magazine called "Victory Review" on the history of the folk music scene in Seattle. Some months afterwards, I spotted one of my articles in the monthly newsletter of a folk music organization in this area. They had simply reprinted it without asking either my permission or the permission of "Victory Review." They did give me a by-line, however, reprinting without getting permission is definitely a violation of copyright laws. I own "First North American Serial Rights" to the articles.

The organization is a non-profit and they do a lot for folk music around here, so I wasn't about to sue them or anything like that. But I called the editor of the newsletter and informed her of the copyright laws and suggested that, in the future, she get the necessary permissions before reprinting something, "First for legal reasons, and second, as a matter of courtesy."

She duly apologized, and everything was friendly.

In your position, I might contact whoever it was and tell them something similar, but were it me, I would tell them to let the videos be. It's good publicity. It lets people know you're there, and it might actually sell some CDs

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Try the link at YouTube to the person who put the recordings there.

The perpetrator, 'GoodFightLad', appears to be a member of the BNP, a small and repellent group of neo-fascists. Other performers whose recordings he has put up without their permission are Mr Fox, Isla Cameron, Martin Carthy, Dave & Toni Arthur, Bert Jansch, John Renbourne, Donovan, Lonnie Donegan, Ralph McTell and Micheal Chapman; there are others. Tracks stolen from old samplers I think.

The practice of illegal 'sharing' of other people's property on YouTube by disguising sound recordings as videos (to which the posters do presumably have some small claim) seems to be on the increase. Not all the perpetrators are fascists, of course, but YouTube needs to be made aware of this so that it can deal with it.

There is no doubt of any kind that this is copyright infringement; but used to this sort of end it's a lot more sinister than that.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

In the clip you posted you are singing a traditional, presumably Public Domain (PD) song. If he was posting one of your originals he would certainly have broken your right to copy for the original composition.

I suspect you have a complaint about someone using your recording, even of a PD song - but that may depend upon how you publish it and the local laws governing such things in your area. He almost certainly has problem publishing a photo of your album cover - without permission.

I have had this sort of thing happen to me pretty often - usually film from live shows, sometimes of me performing original songs, sometimes others. Most of the time, they post the clip then send me a link and ask for my permission!

I have always said YES because they mean well and of course every little bit of promo helps, although some of these clips are ones that I wouldn't have put up (bad hair day, bad sound, too much sun, not enough light, etc etc).


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

... by the way, the music sounds great!


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM

You could, of course, create your own Youtube Channel


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

Uggh! BNP member. That is enough to turn loads of potential listeners, fans and purchasers of your music right off.

You do not want to be associated with that group.

I would get YouTube to remove them immediately.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Jed makes a very good point here. When I comes to stuff that's released to the public, especially from a live performance, you really want to maintain control over whether it gets wider distribution.

Case in point:   I did a concert a few years ago that was recorded and part of it was filmed. I had no idea that any of this was going to go any further, but someone posted a couple of songs I sang on the internet. Had I been asked first, I would have stamped upon it heavily because, although it was okay, the selections were far from my best performances, and I didn't really want them out there in front of God and everybody. But there they were!

I'd really like to be asked.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: DebC
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM

However, even though the songs are public domain, Jerry (hey Jerry!)owns the copyright of the recording and this would be an infringement IMO.

Deb Cowan


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Right on, Deb and Jed. I would quickly check out the BNP connection. That is something that could hurt or help depending on who you market to. I recently had some of our performances taken off Youtube because the video was shot so poorly that it just wouldn't have done us a bit of good, and we were not asked before it was used. I want to be asked, and have a peek.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:04 PM

If you search YouTube for my kid's band, you'll come up with "about 3,090 hits," but only 98 hits for Nic Offer himself. Most of these are bootleg videos of concerts. They had one CD, Street Dad, that was named after me; but I see there aren't any Street Dad videos on YouTube any more, so my moment of fame is over.

I think that many musical acts have learned to live with YouTube as a fact of life, and that it has helped a lot of unknown acts to gain popularity and really hasn't hurt anybody.

And hey, I'd really like to see a video of a performance by Don Firth. On the other hand, I think that if I were Jerry and somebody posted all 24 tracks from one of my CD's, I'd complain. Not sure if I'd want to be on the bad side of a BNP activist, though.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JWB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Great input and opinions -- thanks, and keep 'em coming.

I'm not averse to publicity, and firmly believe that folk music should be made widely available. I would like listeners to be able to buy a copy of the CD if they like what they hear, so that suggestion makes perfect sense. I have no desire to sue the fellow.

What about people being able to download the songs from YouTube? Doesn't that mean you can now obtain the whole CD, cover art, lyrics and liner notes included (more than you get by buying the thing)free from YouTube?

I'm a Yank, so don't know the BNP, but even I could sense that GoodFightLad might represent a political issue that I do not necessarily want my CD associated with. What's your opinion on free publicity from "facists"?

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge having a bad day
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM

It is infringement under UK copyright law - and that is relevant both as to the point of upload and the point of probable download even though the Youtube servers are in the USA. It infringes
Copyright in the arrangement (musical work)
Copyright in the sound recording
Copyright in the sleeve (if you own that copyright) as artistic work.


Under UK law it is also an infrigment of your performer's rights.

If the poster is a known fascist (the BNP are nasty fascists and racists) it may be actionably defamatory by implying that you support their vile causes.

But the youtube servers and management are in the USA.

I cannot be certain but I would expect that now that US has joined Berne your arrangements have a similar US copyright (registered or not, but if you are yourself a US citizen you may have to register the copyright before enforcing it).

There was a period when the US did not have copyright as such in sound recordings or proper performers' rights, but I think those days are past - I would have to check.


I would be confident that your artwork for the sleeve would be protected in the USA much as England.

Try serving a takedown notice under the US Digital Millenium Copyright Act.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JohnB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

Sure sounds like copywright infringement to me, heck if I wasn't on dialup I could download your entire CD without paying a cent/or a penny. As it is I could do it in a week or so :)
The poster obviously cares more for his reasoning to put them up, than he does about your rights and inertpretation of the material
I would have them all taken off then put back a "partial" one of my own if you want the publicity.
Good sounding CD though.
JohnB.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

You don't need to start formal legal proceedings to get YouTube to take plagiarized material down.

In this situation, it would be a good idea to contact all the performers whose work he's ripped off and suggest that they make the same request. I can't see any of them being less than sickened by this sort of abuse of their recordings.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

It's a bit of a tricky one, in my opinion - with the proviso that I am on your side of the pond, so might not get all the implications. I would check out this fellow's on-line presence to get a sense of whether you're likely to become identified with his politics by being associated with him. Assuming that you do not support his politics, you do not want your music used to support his politics. If you get the sense that your music is being used for that purpose, then you should get the vids pulled, IMO. If, on the other hand, there is no propagandizing evident on the youtube pages, there may be no harm in it. He certainly would not be the first fascist or bigot to have good taste in music (disclaimer: haven't heard your music yet!).

It might be of value to read whatever comments have been added to the youtube sites, under the clips.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: meself
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM

NB: Some cross-posting going on. I was responding to your question, 'What's your opinion on free publicity from "facists"?' As far as the copyright matter goes, it is clearly infringement of.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM

Americans and others who may well be unfamiliar with the BNP (British National Party) should think in terms of your white supremacists and the Ku Klux Klan; that sort of thing, except that nowadays they keep the violence in the background and aspire to electoral success. They have won a few seats on Local Councils in the last year or two, trading on the build-up of racism in deprived communities.

I wouldn't think of it as 'free publicity'; these aren't naïve fans who think they are doing you some sort of favour by pirating your recordings. They are using you and others in an attempt to legitimise their cause. Allow the material to stay in place and you risk seeming to endorse that cause. Even if you don't care about copyright theft as such, there's more than just that to consider in this particular case.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM

JWB: leaving aside the copyright question, I really think you would be very well advised to get your stuff removed as quick as you can get Youtube to do it. Unless you want your name associated with British extreme right-wing politics, which your comments suggest you don't.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JWB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM

I appreciate your kind words on the recording -- many thanks for the feedback.

To thicken the plot slightly, I'll let you know that the phonographic copyright, as well as the grand, synchronization and other rights, are owned by the recording company that released the CD. I haven't contacted them yet. They would be the ones to pursue legal redress, I reckon.

I am looking out for publicity and filty lucre. The word "nasty" has been used a couple of times in this thread to describe the BNP, and that makes me very uneasy: I do not want to provide aid and comfort to racists and fascists. But I do want folks to buy the CD. Is it likely that an English lover of traditional music, who'd never heard of my recording before, would decide not to buy it because they first heard it in a YouTube post by a BNP member?

This ethical issue crops up: these are ancient songs, in the public domain, and who am I to say a member of the BNP can't enjoy them and promote them? Of course, it is a bit creepy thinking of British skinheads listening to my voice as they contemplate hate crimes...
The songs are certainly patriotic, albeit from another era, and I can see how the "make the Frenchie's decks run with purple gore" kind of sentiment would appeal to a 20-something contemporary British nationalist.

Speak, oh ye sages of Mudcat!

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:13 PM

Richard Bridge makes the point, the law is close enough to the same in the US that the principles apply--and Jack Campin seconds. YouTube will remove things when requested to do so by the rightful owners. The issue here is not ambiguous in any way--the clips consist primarily of recordings and images that are the property of JWB and his musical associates --


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM

Jerry: put your stuff on Youtube yourself, and get Youtube to take it down from the BNP site. Think guilt by association, or "no man can touch pitch and remain undefiled" or "a man is known by the company he keeps" or any saying like that. Belive me, the BNP does not have a savoury reputation in folky circles in Britain. It just might rub off on you.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM

As I said off the top, open your own Youtube Channel


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Yes Jerry - your musical output has been hijacked for the purpose of BNP propaganda, with "folk" as the hook to hang it on.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: BB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:08 PM

"Is it likely that an English lover of traditional music, who'd never heard of my recording before, would decide not to buy it because they first heard it in a YouTube post by a BNP member?"

Yes.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JWB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM

Your welcome advice is unequivocal, and I feel no hesitation about getting my stuff off the distasteful YouTube channel.

On the broader issue of promoting music, without motion video, on a video website, does that make sense? If I were to videorecord myself performing each track I could see creating a channel to display it, but I'm not getting how just a sound recording and a photo of cover art qualifies as video. What am I missing?

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:31 PM

Debra Cowan posted above. She has lovely video of photography done by her brother (to whom the song is dedicated.)

Her song about her brother. So brilliant.

Just an idea.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

What I mean to say, is montage of photos or video of activity in a harbour attached to the music. Remember to add details at beginning such as credits and contact info to purchase CD.

Good luck


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM

Your own photos though JWB or you'll be infriging copyright.

;-)

Al


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:12 PM

The practice of illegal 'sharing' of other people's property on YouTube by disguising sound recordings as videos (to which the posters do presumably have some small claim) seems to be on the increase. I've noticed tracks lifted from Copper Family records put up that way recently. That's the point, I think: rules that are designed for home videos are being used as a cover for smuggling in audio recordings that would otherwise not be allowed.

Mostly this is being done by people who probably realise that they are 'getting round' what they think is an irksome regulation placing unnecessary restrictions on their personal freedom, and who don't understand that it's wrong. The BNP, however, have been making deliberate efforts to infiltrate the folk music scene; mostly as singer-songwriters, I think, but increasingly in the area of traditional song which, given the sometimes nationalist flavour of all folk musics, probably seems like a rather useful vehicle to them.

Whenever we seem to be beginning to get somewhere in re-establishing the idea (with elements of the cultural establishment if not much of the general populace) that England does actually have a traditional culture and that not all folk music is either American or Irish, people who hitherto took no interest in it whatever suddenly discover its potential use to them as a bandwagon.

It's already difficult enough to persuade some overly-careful people that the mere mention of the word 'English' is not in some fashion racist. If the BNP and their like are allowed to parasitize the movement, then the work is undermined. If people allow their work to be used in the advertising efforts of organisations of that sort (whether or not they stand to gain or lose financially) they risk not only damage to their own reputation (which is their choice) but also that of others and, indeed, the music itself. That isn't a decision that anyone has the right to make in a moral and ethical vacuum: I'm sure that I needn't repeat Edmund Burke in order to make that point.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: DebC
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:28 PM

Hey Jerry,

Check yer email, mate!

Deb


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM

Never heard of the BNP before. However, thanks to this thread I now have read their material. Many of the Mudcat contributors support similar views. http://www.bnp.org

The Good Lad has a point:
UK jobs for UK citizens.
UK churchs being turned into mosques.
Abolish the BBC license fee
A labor party that has forgotten its roots

The rolly, jolly, nationalism within the songs collected on his page is exactly the sort of material to boost the pride of any downtrodden young adult who feels his identity being usurped by infidels. The music fits the need.

Nothing different here than the same hubris found within some Irish groups.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

If your record company owns all relevant copyrights they will need to give the DMCA notice, not you.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

It may be worth PMing Mudcatters who have put home recordings of their own stuff on Youtube - people like Will Fly and Captain Birdseye - for advice and information. The advice about disassociating yourself pronto from the BNP is good advice.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:34 PM

Gargoyle, the BNP are very careful nowadays to present their cause as reasonable patriotism. Some of their statements are, taken at face value, easy to agree with, and as you say may appeal to those who feel that their roots and national identity have been undermined and ignored - a view shared by many folkies, and not just on the political right.

It's when you look beneath the PR and examine their actual policies and behaviour that a rather different picture emerges.

My advice to the OP would be to get his music removed. If he wants it on You Tube, it's simple enough matter for him to put it there himself, under his own control.

I've had a case myself when my band's album was put on the internet. The person doing it just wanted to share the music, and as the album is no longer available we weren't suffering any commercial loss. However it was a poor quality recording taken off a used vinyl record. When he was approached he immediately took it down.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

Well in Canada we had a group of right wing arseholes who called themselves the Reform Party. They were doomed to remain a splinter group until they merged with the Progressive Conservatives. They dropped the Progressive label and today they rule , although with a minority, as a Conservative government.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:40 PM

Sandy, the BNP are significantly nastier than any party that's ever been on offer in Canada. Douglas Social Credit had some fascist connections, but they were fluffy kittens compared to the British neo-Nazi right.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:47 PM

If the songs are at all connected with the BNP, I can't really see that type of promo doing you any good. They are Nazi bastards and aren't worth the sweat off your goolies. IMO, ask Youtube to get them off, now.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: meself
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:28 AM

Have had a listen to some of your songs - great stuff!


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,MalcomT
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:20 AM

Obviously it is difficult for some to discuss the BNP in this thread if it runs counter what the "moderator's" personal agenda is.

I have taken the liberty of inviting The Good Fight Lad over to take a look at the Mudcat and this thread.

Perhaps, he will give an accounting of himself. The good folks posting to HIS YouTube web presence have nothing but VERY positive comments to make about your songs Mr. Bryant.

I sincerely hope he will be received with open arms and a good firm Yankee handshake of welcome.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,MalcomT
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:24 AM

Why have you removed Gargoyle's postings?
    Gargoyle tends to be ill-mannered, so we have to keep him on a very short leash. When he insults people, we delete him without hesitation.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,MalcomT
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:44 AM

MESSAGE From GoodFightLad

Thankyou very much for sending me this link and message, having read the thread im very confused and rather shocked to be honest. I am only a BNP supporter not a fully paid up member, the BNP is not a far right neo nazi party as some of the postings have suggested, we are a British nationalist party working to preserve the culture, history, unique British identity and traditional music of Britain from extinction.

The CD in question is a favourite of mine, i love the songs and history connected to them, being British and proud of it, the CD brings a great connection with the past. My only intention was to share such a great bunch of songs with the world, i hope people would buy the CD if they heard a few of them on youtube, i never knew you could download youtube videos for free. My apologies to anyone offended by my actions, i only had good intentions and no sinister plot to recruite BNP members.

If the artist wishes me to take them down i will do so immidiately and to respect his wishes. Copyright never even entered into my mind as there is a lot of music about youtube, i wasnt thinking clearly and never wanted to rip anyone off. Ive had people ask me in the past where they can find some of the music ive posted and ive always told them to buy the CD online.

I really do hope no one is offended by this, the music is great and the reason for my youtube channel is to hopefully bring more people to traditional folk music, as far as ive seen it is in decline in this country as more people are swept up in rap music and the like.

All the best Good Fight Lad.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: DebC
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:51 AM

Thanks, VT for giving the link to my slideshow. The song I used is not one I have written, but one in which I own the recording rights. I have asked and received permission from the writer (Chris Moore) to use my version of his song for commercial and promotional purposes. The photographs were taken by my late brother and he owned all rights associated with them. Since I am one of the heirs of his estate (he had no children or spouse), I have the right to use those photos in my slideshow.

I am no lawyer, but I do think that it's important for any of us who create art to have some understanding of the legal implications of our creativity. As for Jerry's music being used without his permission, whether it be a front for a political cause or not, is inexcusable. Even if a political cause I supported wanted to use my music, I would hope they would ask first.

BTW-Jerry Bryant is a wonderful songwriter in his own right and I sing one of his songs "The Dreadnought Mutiny". You can see my version on this YouTube video from last year's Chicago Maritime Festival.

Debra


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM

Jerry, I would think you could just try contacting YouTube first, before getting lawyers involved. I've seen enough videos pulled off YouTube to believe they might listen.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM

I've got no fellow feelings with the BNP and if my music was on that site I would be miffed.
Despite my usual attitude that it is great that someone wanted to use my music,even if they didnt ask.
I asked the guy where I could get the C.D. and he said to buy it online later adding that he got his legitimatly through Amazon.
I happen to believe in listening to others point of view before forming an opinion.
Most of our kinds problems come about from marginalising and ignoring the views of others we do not share similar life experiences with.
Therefore maybe banning this or that,person or group from expressing their particular views would not be a good thing?
When they came for me there was no one left?


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

Drednaught Mutiny
Excellent song and performance
Thank you DC


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

oops that was me just now


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Jack, I vaguely remember hearing of an actual Canadian Nazi Party and they did get quite nasty I believe.

To the point this thread, Youtube will pull video(s) if the musician or his/her representatives get in touch with them.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM

Of course there is no need to involve lawyers; that would be an expensive over-reaction. A polite request to the culprit is often quite sufficient, with a follow-up request to YouTube if that doesn't work. Lawyers are supposed to be a last resort, though I realise that isn't such a common attitude in the USA.

In this case 'Good Fight Lad' (presumably it was him) has responded politely and has said that he will remove the recordings when he is asked to, so there is no need to take matters any further so long as he keeps his word. We ought to give him the benefit of the doubt; many BNP supporters are decent but naïve people who genuinely aren't aware of the party's deeply unpleasant history or of the nature of the agenda they are being duped into by its leaders.

It may also be that he didn't realise that buying a copy of a CD doesn't give you the right to re-publish it; now that he does, I hope that he will also take down the recordings belonging to the other performers I mentioned earlier without waiting to be asked by the individuals concerned, who are probably too busy trying to make a living to patrol social networking sites for pirated recordings, with or without links to causes they might find repellent.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: JWB
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Good on you, Malcom T, for soliciting and sharing the input from GoodFightLad. The civil approach is much appreciated. I prefer to work things out rather than thrash them out. I'll be contacting him to do just that, with an eye to fostering enjoyment of traditional music, supporting the rights of intellectual property owners and upholding free speech.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GEST
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:12 PM

I'm going to toss out something which does not answer the question of copyright infringement, but also does not quite agree with all that has been said previously. The mention of pirating, downloading, or outright stealing from or through YouTube is what generates this post.

YouTube videos can be embedded onto another site, yes. But from YouTube or an embedded YouTube video they cannot be pirated, stolen, or otherwise downloaded. The embedded video always stays directly at YouTube, in YouTube's control and on YouTube's servers. The videos are an ideal way to spread a song rapidly around the world without risking loss of financial gain. The greatly reduced cost for international advertising must certainly be worth a few thousand views by those who have never heard of a songwriter, band, or singer.

From what I have seen, many obscure or heretofore unknown artists would remain that way if it wasn't for "air-play" on YouTube. If an artist has a hit song (or songs), they will be a success with or without YouTube, but why think a presence on YouTube would hinder the artist's success or reduce sales?

Neither YouTube nor I promote copyright infringement. I am merely trying to keep YouTube's role in proper perspective.

GEST Songs of Newfoundland and Labrador


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

The civil approach always works best (at least the first time)

I am so happy that my dear friend MalcomT was able to act as mediary before you began to follow up on others suggestions in this thread to seek a solicitor/lawyer.

I must agree with GEST above, ...why think a presence on YouTube would hinder the artist's success or reduce sales?

This exposure can only help your sales...(why I beleive I might purchase a copy myself.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It is interesting to view all four segments of the British video - and the photo "This is a British Bulldog - not a Brussle's Sprout" is quite clever. It never hurts to understand a different point of view.


    Now, Gargoyle, this post is almost civil. Sorry, but we had to delete several of your earlier posts because you weren't being very nice.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM

The issue is not whether exposure on You Tube or any other internet site is a good thing. It's about respect for other people's intellectual property. Just because you've bought a CD or legitimately downloaded a track does not give you the right, legal or moral, to publish it - that is the musician's choice.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Could not agree more, Howard.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM

Regarding stuff being put on YouTube, one could say "It's good exposure." True enough, but as Dave Van Ronk was heard to say, "People have been known to die of exposure!"

Please, mother, I'd rather do it myself!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:05 AM

GEST:
But from YouTube or an embedded YouTube video they cannot be pirated, stolen, or otherwise downloaded.

Just a quick comment: If you have RealPlayer Downloader (free) software on your computer, whenever you watch a YouTube (or any other)video using, say, FireFox, RealPlayer Downloader kicks in and opens up a window asking whether you want to download it.

So it is possible to download material from YouTube - which I do from time to time, but purely for self-interest. I do NOT redistribute them in any way.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM

I was just going to add that I am sure I have seen down load managers that claim to have the facility to download vids from U Tube.
Never tried one but maybe is worth bearing in mind.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:20 AM

Hi Tim - I've used RPD mainly for grabbing stock of old bluesmen such as Gary Davis, Bill Broonzy, John Hurt, etc. Very useful.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:03 AM

A neat, small, free program that will record everything that comes through your computer speakers is found at:

www.davee.com

Admittedly though - the quality of sound is poor (as ALL YouTube sound is) I can't imagine anyone who likes the music to NOT go out and BUY the CD quality recording of the music.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I discovered the program through computer radio forums.


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: GEST
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Thanks, Will Fly ~ I stand corrected. :-)

GEST Songs of Newfoundland and Labrador


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

I only found out myself by accident! I was downloading RealPlayer and only discovered I'd also download the "Downloader" bit when I next looked at a YouTube video - it clicked into life... :-)


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

Hi Jerry
I can imagine your surprise & shock, actually "shock & awe" come to mind. He does put the tag line at the end of his info that "if the artist wants I will take this down". Nice of him but he could've asked in the first place, no respect there, it was easy enough for him to find a copy to buy it would been just as easy to contact you.
I don't imagine that an airing like this will get you mcuh sales maybe some exposure, it would have been better if it were just short snips and then a review pehaps to Dirty Linen.
Good luck with whatever you do, kneecapping these days is not to costly
See ya soon

Barry


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM

""if the artist wants I will take this down"
It's that or some youtubers post the old "no copyright infringement intended"...ummmm ok!


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Subject: RE: Is this copyright infringement?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM

Jerry, I would urge you to get those tracks taken down. On his YouTube profile page, GoodFightLad uses one of your songs to support a political slogan "Stop the EU - Use your vote and spread the truth!". Not as contentious an issue as some of their policies and one you probably aren't very interested in but I doubt if you gave him permission to use your work in that way.

As well as trying to appropriate traditional British music for their own ends, the BNP also use other people's CDs to add legitimacy to their own efforts by mixing them together in the sales from their publishing arm.

Association with this bunch can only do you harm.


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