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BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum

Wolfhound person 13 Feb 09 - 03:21 PM
SINSULL 13 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 09 - 03:57 PM
wysiwyg 13 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM
Uncle_DaveO 13 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM
LilyFestre 13 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Festie 13 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM
Liz the Squeak 13 Feb 09 - 06:28 PM
paula t 13 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM
Jack Blandiver 13 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM
Nickhere 13 Feb 09 - 07:06 PM
Barry Finn 13 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Festie 13 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 09 - 08:11 PM
paula t 13 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM
paula t 13 Feb 09 - 08:52 PM
TRUBRIT 14 Feb 09 - 01:26 AM
Penny S. 14 Feb 09 - 03:47 AM
Wolfhound person 14 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Lexy 14 Feb 09 - 05:44 AM
bubblyrat 14 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM
Paul Burke 14 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM
Teribus 14 Feb 09 - 07:30 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Feb 09 - 07:36 AM
Barry Finn 14 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Lexy 14 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM
Barry Finn 14 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Lexy 14 Feb 09 - 09:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,mg 14 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM
Barry Finn 14 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,mg 14 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM
Ebbie 14 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM
Ebbie 14 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM
Ebbie 14 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM
Sleepy Rosie 14 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM
JennieG 14 Feb 09 - 05:58 PM
TRUBRIT 14 Feb 09 - 09:39 PM
Jack Blandiver 15 Feb 09 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Lexy 15 Feb 09 - 05:00 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM
GUEST 15 Feb 09 - 05:43 AM
goatfell 15 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

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Subject: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:21 PM

Anybody else see/hear this story being held up as an example of deteriorating teenage standards of behaviour in the UK?

Apparently the two of them have kept the child, and are being helped by family members.

I was at school with a lass (in the 60s) who had her first child at 11, and by the time she was 16 had had 3 (or so we were told in shocked whispers about what happened to BAD girls)

To me there's nothing biologically impossible about it, nor anything any more reprehensible these days than 40 years ago. Some kids hit puberty early......

It's undesirable in social terms, possibly, but as an example of the collapsing of society's care for "children"? I don't think so.

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM

If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own. I would never recommend babies to teenagers nor marriage to legitimize a birth. But if they and their families decide to go ahead with the pregnancy and keep the child, so be it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:57 PM

Slightly older kids but some friends of mine got married when they were both 15. They lived on neighboring farms with their families.

They had been sweethearts since Grade 3 and always said they would eventually marry.

When the girl was 12 her mother died. When she was 15 her father learned he had terminal cancer.

The first the two kids learned about it was when they were called in to a joint meeting between the two families and told that if they truly did want to get married the families would help them.

When I first met the couple they were 52, they had four children and the oldest one was 37 years old.

Georgia and Leo told everyone they had always been each other's best friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

Life happens, then people decide for themselves how to deal. Bless 'em. They'll need all the support that can be.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

Sinsull, you said,

"If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own."

There's some assumptions there which may foul up your statement.

"IF the baby is safe and loved". . .

With parents that age, the support, care, and safety of the baby is highly in question. At that age of childbearing--11, 13, 15--the mother is hardly competent to take care of her own welfare, let alone that of a baby, and later on for another say eighteen years.

As to the father at that age, his ability to provide a living for a baby and its mother financially is nearly nil. And his likelihood of standing up to the other responsibilities of parenthood besides financial is highly in doubt. The disappearing teenage dad is classical.

And even if the family(s) say they will take care of the kidlet, it is certainly something other than the insular "business" of the child parents. The parents are too young to be parents, and the caregiving grandparents are probably too old to be parenting a new chick from babyhood till adulthood.

And if those sources of personal and financial support falter, it becomes the business of the community, both to provide support and to deal with the wrecked human that may well be the product.

To say "If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own" is to wash one's hands of what is at best a messy, dangerous situation.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

Since the baby is already born, Dave O, there remains not much to be done but to "wash one's hands'. What is, is.

One point: at the boy's age of 13 his parents (the "caregiving grandparents) are probably under age 45! Hardly too old for anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: LilyFestre
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

A very good childhood friend of mine had a younger sister who gave birth to twins when she was 14. Just yesterday I learned that the one is studying to be a teacher at the local university and another is an LPN working on her RN. They were the first of 7 children that this young mother had without a snowballs chance in hell...yet look at them now. They had very little money but lots of love and family support. It's amazing what love can do, isn't it?

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Festie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

Firstly both should face charges for breaking the law. Secondly the families should be interviewed by police and social services and some action must be taken. Thirdly the child should be taken into care for it's own good. Lastly, the British taxpayer should not have to carry the can for yet another benefits child. Watch and see, they will get the normal package, a free house and £300.00 a week.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:28 PM

Am I the only one who is wondering whether these two will be charged with having under age sex? He was 12 when he slept with his 14yr old girlfriend and they got pregnant... what the hell sort of sex education lessons did these children have?

I'm all for toy boys, but preferably one that isn't still playing with toys!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

When I started teaching, I remember a 14 year old boy who had fathered 3 children - 2 of them with 6th form girls (17) and one with a 12 year old. I never saw that in the national papers.The gutter press is full of the vilification of young people. The majority of teenagers I have met are mature, law abiding and incredibly good to know. This is more than I can say about many teenagers I knew in my own youth.
I think it is incredibly sad that a young girl should miss out on her late childhood.It is also going to be difficult for her family and possibly the baby. That's bad enough without papers scandalising about it.Poor lass!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Do under age sex laws apply if both parties are under age? If so, they'd have to be convicting most kids over 13 - and not just the ones unlucky enough to get pregnant.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM

Precisely, Insane Beard. The biological imperative is powerful, and we have got badly out of step with it.

Festie seems to be short of a brain cell or two. Care proceedings for the baby will cost a huge amount more than supporting the family, or even the mother and baby, and probably cause far more damage to the child. We KNOW that putting a child in care is damaging. The critical question is whether leaving the child with a parent (or two parents) is likely to cause more or less damage, and if more, how much.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:06 PM

It's not that long ago - maybe half a dozen generations, when people got married and had kids very young - 15 was not at all unusual, unless they were 'high society' and marriages were as much about inheritance, joining family estates and so on. We're talking even mid-19th century here. Some of your great-grandparents might even have got married at 15 or 16 - my great great grandmother was already married at 17.

People's life spans were shorter, so they had to get started earlier. People were poorer so they couldn't hang around at home until they decided to get married, they had to get out and start a nest of their own. They didn't spend quarter of a century or more - almost a third of their lives - in education, or expect to put off having children until into their late thirties / early forties. People also had kids young so there would be someone to look after the parents when the parents got too old - no social security net back then. The family was less nuclear - poorer people especially often lived several crowded into a single room. While this may have been uncomfortable and crowded it also meant there was large extended family to help with the rearing of the kids. Grandparents had their role to play - babysitting while parents worked, and not shoved into a home or a 'granny flat' of their own to while away their last years. There was hiher infant and maternal mortality mainly due to poor medical care and hygiene awareness, though midwives were usually very good at their jobs.

In short there's nothing impossible about teenagers having healthy babies, and raising them perfectly well in a loving family with grandparents helping out as they have done for generations. We've done it for most of our evolution up to the last 100 years when changes in fashion and society have made it frowned upon. As for paying social welfare to support such people - while I would hope they'd be honest and look for a job as soon as they can, I have no problem with my taxes going to them so they can finish school, try and get a job etc.,

With our very low birthrates in the West we should be applauding anyone who manages to bring new kids into the world. In France the government actually gives parents a bonus for every extra child. Kids who are born into wealthy families don't necessarily get any more love than those born into poor families - wealthy parents might also feel able to 'compensate' for lack of attention with money, cars clothes etc., hardly ideal parenting either.

I've had to simplify and generalize a bit here to cover such broad sociological issues but in short the kind of society we have today when people stay at school until they're 23 or more and get married in late 20s early 30s and have kids same time is an aberration in the sense that's not been the way it has been for most of history. maybe our bodies and instincts haven't caught up with the 21st century western lifestyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

My cousin had her 1st at 15 she now has 5 after better than 30 happy yrs married to the same father of them all. They were as poor as a church mouse & they still are, always scrapping by but they are as happy as clams & always have been & they both love their kids as well as each other, as much now as on the day they had their 1st. Her kids have all grown into adults that any one would be proud of. Her youngerst is as old as my oldest, they are both attending the same college together.

Would anyone want to throw a criminal charge at them?
I can't think of anyone I've ever known who would've done better

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Festie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

"When I started teaching, I remember a 14 year old boy who had fathered 3 children - 2 of them with 6th form girls (17) and one with a 12 year old. I never saw that in the national papers.The gutter press is full of the vilification of young people"

Right, NO mention that this is wrong ????? Gutter press ? why did this paper print lies ?

I never read such a post on this site in my life that lacked so much.

Well a teacher by profession, it says it all !


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:11 PM

There's no need to sound off about everything that happens in the world as if it was a personal affront.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM

Festie,
Thanks for that.There's nothing like the cut and thrust of an intelligent and reasoned argument to brighten up an evening.Why the personal attack?

I think if you read my post again You'll find that my sympathies were with the girl.Of course it is wrong!What right minded person could think otherwise? Having had to deal with a number of young girls in this situation (more so in the early 80s) I have seen the terrible heartache it causes . What doesn't help is that this is bandied all over the press.

My main argument was that that this is not a new situation.The papers are focussing on it because teenage immorality is a pet theme at the moment.I don't believe that today's teenagers are any more immoral than in the past.I do however believe that their parents have been self seeking and irresponsible to talk to the media.It is the children who will in the end have to deal with the fallout.

Where did I say that the newspapers lied? I merely think that some consideration should be given to the harm this type of story does.

I would thank you not to resort to personal insult in future. This is a public forum ,you don't know me and I don't remember insulting you in my post.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

I do however believe that their parents have been self seeking and irresponsible to talk to the media.

Possibly so - I haven't and won't read the tabloids on this one.

But the thing about those kind of papers (and not just those kind) is that they can put a powerful squeeze on when they scent a story. "If you don't talk to us, that won't stop us printing the story. But you might not like it very much, it won't have your side..."

And then when they talk, the words can be edited and selected in a way that can make them seem to say things that weren't said, and can present a picture that doesn't represent the truth of a situation, but matches the angle that has been decided already.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:52 PM

It has just been on the TV news!What can i say? A complete interview with the "Proud grandparents"(Who won't of course make any money from selling their story...)and the new parents- who will not yet have realised the possible consequences of all this publicity.

Where are the "Responsible editors"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:26 AM

But Barry - you wouldn't advocate in principle for starting out on life as a parent at 15 - would you -- even though sometimes it can work


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 03:47 AM

Having seen the picture of the father, I have a number of doubts. Nine months after the event, he has no facial changes to imply anything approaching sexual maturity. How could his testosterone levels be high enough to release sperm if not high enough even to cause acne? No bone changes, no facial hair. Is he the father? Isn't it odd for a 14 year old girl to feel attracted to someone two years her junior. As I recall, it's two years older that draws the attention.
They both come from large families which seem on the feckless side. This isn't a society wide problem. There are a few families where children may seek comfort in early sexual behaviour.
I have seen boys who early in their teens do look physically mature - I've seen one at 9 who had me suspecting that the body builders he hung out with had been feeding him steroids. His muscles and body shape, and taut face looked older, but he had no body hair or other development. This lad shows none of that sort of thing. I have doubts.
Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

From Paula T: "My main argument was that that this is not a new situation.....I don't believe that today's teenagers are any more immoral than in the past."

This was the feeling I had about it as well....I haven't seen it the papers, can't afford any, it just came up briefly on radio 4 (pm, I think). So I haven't seen any of the details

I know a 12 year old lad who in the last 2 years has shot up to 6 foot something, his voice has broken etc etc. I know that's early, but I'm sure he'd be capable of fathering a child, though I don't suppose he would.

The age of average marriage has gone up and down over the centuries, from my quite extensive reading of social history - I think to say it was always much earlier than now is too sweeping, but I think that the present situation is leaving things a bit late.

I had my son & daughter at 22/23, which meant that by the time they were booted out to university at 19, I was able to look at some extensive "me" time, which I'm now enjoying.
They've chosen to wait (in one case) till 35. Granddaughter hits puberty as daughter hits the menopause - not a good combination, IMO.

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 05:44 AM

Interesting to see what the bill will be to the taxpayer for raising this child and both parents. The government has to do something about this problem. Teenagers get knocked up to get out away from mum and dad and get a free council house and a weekly wage to sit on their ass, or in most cases, to lay on their backs. The country is full of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM

Odd,isn't it ?? If the father of the 15 year-old's child had been 18,then he would be facing criminal charges,and,if 50 or over,would doubtless be branded a paedophile.But,because he is only 13, everyone's getting all "Ooooh" and Aaaaaagh" and "How Sweeeet"" and crap like that---it makes me sick !! And yes,people may have got married and had children at a young age in the nineteenth century, we all (or should) know that, but the point is that they got MARRIED (although I don't know about at 15), they didn't go around having multiple partners and infecting each other with venereal disease,and their children were THEIR (or their families') responsibility, not the Taxpayers!No wonder the Muslims,with their strong family ethos and moral ethics,despise us so much !!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM

She's 15, he's 13. Why does this story make me think of Ivor Cutler's Beatrice And her Dirty Knees?

I didn't know they had VD, b-rat, and I didn't know getting married prevented it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:30 AM

The presumption made in some of the opening posts to this thread that these two young parents will be supported by their parents and that all will be well smacks of being blissfully naive.

This is the boy who when asked how he could support his family financially asked the reporter, "What's financially?".

The boy and girl involved are members of families that basically just let their children run wild - what makes you think that those people will now become responsible parents?

It is a tragedy for all concerned, and as such should be deplored.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:36 AM

Good Folk song in there somewhere:-

For he is only 13 yrs,
And I am just 15.
Oh the bonny boy is young,
But he's growing.

I guess like every other situation that crops up in life that causes surprise and doubt etc.... we will just have to wait and see... and I reckon the authorities will be monitoring them to some degree (if they have the resources).
I cared for teanage girls and their babies for over ten years of my career... we had them from as young as eleven (made pregnant at ten by her own father) to eighteen. Most of them arrived pregnant and had their babies at the local maternity hospital....some were brilliant mums... some were good mums... some weren't capable of caring for themselves, never mind children... but often it was the ones we thought wouldn't cope that coped quite adequately with being a mum. It was hard for us to assess who would keep their babies and who would give them up.... so how can anyone judge whether this child will be loved and cared for by its parents.. whatever age?. It is not impossible for a thirteen year old boy to develop a sense of responsibility beyond his years and how often has it been tested.
I guess the parents will have responsibility for all three of them for the time being... I hope they are well enough equipped to 'help' in the bondings of all three.
Once again, let's just wait and see.. because if it doesn't work out, we will hear more of it.. if it does... great..... and I wish them all the joys in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

TruBrit, no I don't advocate for this but (shit happens) once a teen knows they/he/she are gonna become a parent they have a few choices to make & those choices in the end all belong to them, not to any one else. They can ask for help, that would aid them in their making a choice but no one has the right to force a choice on them, they are the ones that will live with the choice, everyone else can walk away if they so choose but they will always the ones to carry the weight.

As I said my cousin was 15 she's now in her 50's she/they grew up young right along side the kids & they are one of the most devoted families I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.

The gripe about someone's taxes or the state taking care of the costs, give me a break. Those people are probably the 1st to screem that sex education is a waste of their hard earned money. The worst of the social diseases is a lack of education. Kids are never to young to learn. They were born to experiment, that's why they sometimes get into difficult situations. We are all (or should be) teachers, only a very few are good enforcers & I've heard from none on this thread.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM

There is an estate close to were I live and it's full of teen mums who live alone. None of these girls work, it doesn't pay them to. Friday amd Saturday nights they dress in very little and head out in packs. Kids probably left alone and wake up next morning to some bloke heading down the stairs after you know what.

When I was growing up mums got their mothers to care for kids while they held down full time jobs. Today thanks to government policy to leave school expecting a kid is a career. Social workers sort out the paperwork, days later you get the keys to a house and the weekly cheque comes in. Nothing is being done about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

So it's the goverment policy now that's at fault Lexy? It's a sign of the times? When you were growing up? Please give this a rest! Sex education is the 1st & foremost tool in prevent teen pregnantices, after that a good education. Both the parents & the state is responsible for that. Just saying no is just what it implies, "nothing" & that's a waste of your money.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:03 AM

Charge the 13 and 15 year old as they both committed a crime. Don't make benefits so handy, let teen mums stay with mum and dad, no more handy weekly handouts. The don't want to prevent teen pregnantices, take the plank out of your eye Barry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

GUEST,Lexy seems to know an awful lot about that estate - that most of the people living there are teenage mums living on their own, that none of them work, that they all head out on Friday and Saturday nights, and mostly bring home a strange fella for the night...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM

Any aid to teenagers should be very very conditional..you will be learning a trade, you will be working X hours in a nursing home, or parks department or whatever, depending on criminal history etc...you will be very closely supervised, you will be contributing something to the community which is overburdened already. They should be in parenting classes, have group nurseries, supervised, where they leave babies for a while and take care of each others' babies, their comings and goings and social contacts should be monitered. There should be drug screenings, and in short, it should not be punitive or abusive, but it should be structured, society should get at least something back, the parents should end up with at least a modest trade, and there should be no dens of domestic violence, child neglect, drugs, etc. There should be the equivalent of den mothers to keep an eagle eye on things, and their housing should be inspected periodically. Not too much to ask. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

The plank in my eye Lexy should be brought down across your backside.
You want to tie up the justice system for a few teens that got into a mess. That's a sure way to a soul.tion. Send them underground, increase the number of runaways, see the teen suicide rates skyrocket, alley way abortions enter the scene. Lexy & Mg have their fingers on the pulse of the problem, NOT! How about a couple bucks for education?
Underage kids having sex with each other is not a crime & there's a reason for that, it's the same for consenting adults! There are plenty of those that shouldn't be allowed to have kids too, idiot!

Why not sterilize the little bastards before they're old enough to hit puberty. Like they use to for those that weren't approved for having kids, like some minorities, the mentally challanged, drunks & addicts, priests & nuns. Cause they'll all cost the tax payer too, right?
Sometimes I feel as if we should jail idiots because of their dangerous thoughts but no, we have to wait for those idiots to act on them 1st. Good thing no one has put you two in charge of anything more than a keyboard.

What's a "weekly handout", Lexy?

You sound like someone who keeps screeming about their taxes going to schools & education just because you don't have any kids that will benifit from it. You should be put to pasture, troll.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Hm..I think I mentioned learning a trade, and meant vocational or occupational education, as well as regular education. I also mentioned parenting classes. Do not see the lack of education in my proposal.

It is not just a few potential problems. It is a huge and growing problem, and we can not afford it and it is not fair to the babies, the teens themselves (and a 13 year old boy is usually still pretty child-like), and it is not fair to their parents, and it is not fair to people who have to pay for this, and it is not fair to people who have to endure the social consequences of spreading poverty..such as dangerous neighborhoods.

It is the biological imperative that every 15 year old girl instinctively (OK take out every..I don't want to bother arguing) wants to get pregnant whether she realizes it or not. We have to put obstacles up in the face of biology..the main one is constant supervision of younger teens..never should a 13 year old get pregnant..and supervision has to be lessened as they approach 17 or so, when hopefully they could at least raise the baby and partially support it.

This is what drives all sorts of ensuing problems. If we can get a handle on it, problems will fade from society. Don't bother saying I am blaming the victim. I don't buy it. I do not blame the victims. I do blame the enablers. If you have teens, they ahve to be supervised, in group social settings for part of their day hopefully, in healthy recreation, which most of them do not have access to, and not have access to the pull of the streets, the gangs, etc. I know that will be very hard for some as situations are very bad often..but there is a huge gray area where kids cango either way, and a large part of teen pregnancy is just the social acceptance of it. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

mg, I think I have noted befoe that your solution involves the duenna concept. Far better to my mind is the vital education that Barry proposes.

People, including children, are not inherently stupid. People, including children, respond to their own self-interest. Aware self-interest leads to actions that further that self-interest. Let's work with that fact.

Listening to what they are saying is an essential part of education, both theirs and ours.

One of my battle cries is that if I could do one thing, I would get it across to children that life needn't be as hard as we tend to make it.

And further: Every child is entitled to a mentor!


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Ebbie:

One point: at the boy's age of 13 his parents (the "caregiving grandparents) are probably under age 45!

My wife and I adopted (because of childlessness) at 36 or so, and again at 39; and believe you me, that's already too far along for a first child--not when Junior is a cute, cuddly little helpless thing, but 16, 17, 18 years later it can be pretty grim. The world those kids inhabited is so changed from our young days that we had no idea what was going on in and around them, and in a number of ways we failed them.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

But, Dave O, we all fail them. There are no do-overs, the best we can hope for sometimes is understanding and forgiveness.

A friend of mine has two sons. The older one, now 30, is fine. The younger one, 28, is in terrible shape, mentally and in prospects. He is currently hooked on meth but he started out as a 'problem child' filled with inexplicable hate and rebellions and lack of . His parents cajoled, punished, sought therapy and intervention from the authorities. He still ended up on the street and in frequent trouble with the law.

Now, my friend says, they know they failed the boy in so many ways; they simply did not know what he was going through.

My parents were 48 and 50 when they adopted two little girls, 17 and 6 months respectively. It is true that the girls' parents were significantly older than those of their peers but they also had numerous older brothers and sisters who rallied 'round.

I do agree with you, Dave O, that life today for the young'uns is immeasureably more difficult than it used to be.

On the other hand, that is the identical thing my parents told me when I was young.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

I haven't read all this thread. But generally I believe, that there needs to be far greater active encouragement of young fertile girls to to easily access safe Birh Control.

Sexually mature girls (approaching the physical capacity to concieve babies (ie. Menarch), rather than exhibiting sexual behaviour and activity), should be able to get such life altering stuff, easily via the school nurse IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM

Err, which means I believe, give them the essential chemical/barrier failsafe's alongside the preachy "don't do this" stuff that they may well ignore...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM

An analogy here:

In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM

IMO Creating a taboo of any kind, incites natural rebellion. Just like my naughty cats who always do whatever it is that they know annoys me most in order to get my attention...

With girls, I think that a very gentle "it's here if you need it" approach is best, along with all the essential information about how pregnancy can cause major upheavals etc.

But IMO, give them fast easy access to the child prevention technology, before they even need preaching to, would be the most pragmatic solution to an awful lot of buggered up lives...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 05:58 PM

Many years ago Himself worked at a place where there were several families working alongside each other - husband and wife, father and son etc. One father and son had just 14 years between them, i.e. father was 14 when son was born.

Perhaps things were different then; this was in the 70s, so the birth would have taken place in the 50s. People felt differently then about young marriages and families. Nowadays we are surprised if anyone under 30 gives birth!

Cheers
JennieG


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:39 PM

To the various souls who have said - sex education is the answer, I say amen. Both my daughters were offered birth control at 15 -- both took the option. Both are lovely young women, neither of them are promiscuous and neither of them are unplanned mothers yet at the ages of 23 and 27 respectively.......


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:47 AM

Kids having sex at that age disgraceful.

This makes an interesting read: Worldwide Ages of Consent.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:00 AM

In today's paper the boy wants the mum to take a DNA test. Four other local boys are claiming to be the father. I would charge the grandparents with neglect. A sad refection on what Britain has become.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM

Which put me in mind of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VcGJZpfl1c

Perfect listening for a weary Sunday morning, Barney's shorts notwithstanding...


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM

A sad refection on what Britain has become.

Personally, I find your posts to this thread a sadder reflection, Lexy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:43 AM

Children having children, and the grownups have to pay.

Phil*


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Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

what about their parents?


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