BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

On the Net it's called lurking, Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

What exciting lives some Mudcatter have led.
I felt as though I should be sitting in an adjoining room, listening through a wee grille.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

Such conundrums. Where, oh where, is the mountaintop man? :)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:24 AM

Yes, Dave. My question is "Is he still guilty?" lol

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:46 AM

Sinsull, if a man was executed for a crime which no longer calls for a death sentence, is he still dead?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:00 AM

Those laws (in the US anyway) date back to a time when people took marriage vows seriously. As late as the 50s, a divorced woman, in some circles, was ostracized. A straying wife was a pariah.
Times have changed as have sexual mores.

In the 50s and early 60s, couples did not live together before getting married and brides were expected to be virgins.Take a look at the movies and TV programs of the time. They reflect the existing mores if not reality.

These laws may still exist but I would be surprised if anyone has gone to jail recently for infidelity. I am not even sure they go to hell anymore...

Which reminds me - all those people who went to hell for eating meat on Friday - have they been let out? Have they been paid compensation? How does that work? And all those babies in limbo? Now that it doesn't exist, are they homeless?

It's he first day of work after a long and somewhat stressful weekend. Sorry for the thread drift.
M

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:39 AM

"The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense." Kendall

Is that true generally? That brings up an image of the police storming up the stairs at an assignation."

Not for a civil offence, Ebbie, the police's interest is only in criminal offences surely? Unless, of course, the US legal system differs in this?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM

Wow. Here is some information dealing with the legalities of adultery/ Evidently Utah, Florida and Illinois mandate prison sentences of 1, 2, and 5 years respectively! Who'd a thunk it.

Here

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:24 PM

"The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense." Kendall

Is that true generally? That brings up an image of the police storming up the stairs at an assignation.

Can a person turn in an errant spouse? I just can't get my head around that concept.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:56 PM

The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense. Grounds for divorce. But, in Muslim countries it can mean a death sentence for a woman.
In Maine, the age of consent is 16. If the girl is under14 it is carnal knowledge, and if she is between 14 and 16 it is statutory rape if the male is over 18.

You must have heard that Mickey Mouse sued Minnie for divorce? The judge said, "I'm sorry Mickey, but you can't divorce Minnie just because she's crazy." Mickey said
"I didn't say she is crazy, I said she's fucking Goofy."

A little humor! (Yeah, damn little.)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:58 PM

Kat:

then there would be a case of paternity for the courts, right?

A matter "for the courts", presumably; not necessarily "against the law", which was the question. That is, a civil controversy, not criminal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:51 PM

Maybe only if there were kids involved, Jacqui, esp. if the screwer were preggers by their partner or screwee...then there would be a case of paternity for the courts, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:43 PM

Hmmmm. Kendall, is 'screwing around' on one's marriage "against the law"? Against one's vow, no question, but does the magistrate care?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:38 PM

Interesting titbit in todays papers , that TWO other lads have said THEY could be the father ! Apparently the girl's parents didnt think there was anything wrong wrong with several lads spending nights in her bedroom ! The Mind Boggles !!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

and in this case, who would've touched who first?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:55 PM

From a work-lifetime involved with the law and the courts, I offer you two truisms:

1. Laws are very often not clear in their provisions, their coverage, despite what may have been the unspoken intentions of the legislators.

and

2. There are many, many, many situations which do constitute crimes that are never charged, even when the facts are clear: Prosecutors have better things to do; their workload is too heavy as it is; prosecutors are afraid of political backlash if they misjudge the climate of opinion in their bailiwick; prosecutors are often as nonplussed about the applicability of statutes as the rest of us, and so do nothing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,corie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

look just because he is 13 dosen't mean he can't be a good dad

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM

I guess I'm a little dense then, because I don't find it particularly clear. Sooz said, " ... offences can be committed by anyone, male or female, over the age of 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility.... It is an offence to intentionally engage in sexual touching with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15. .... " First of all, where does that leave eleven- and twelve-year-olds (or those younger)? And are we really to believe that if, for instance, two eleven-year-olds engage in "sexual touching" that they are committing a criminal offence? And, in this case, that the twelve-year-old could be prosecuted for engaging in "sexual touching" "with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15" (and how "young" is a fifteen-year-old in relation to a twelve-year-old anyway?).

Further: "A person may claim in their defence that they believed the young person to be over 16." So the twelve-year-old could use this defence?

Oh, apparently not: "Intentional sexual touching of a young person under 13 is an absolute offence. This means there can be no defence in such a case that it was believed the person was over 16."

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I said that posters had "cited law that seems to imply adult/minor activity". I find it hard to believe that there is no proviso or common-law precedent that exempts children from prosecution under these laws. If the law that Sooz gave is the only relevant law, then that's the law. But it's unclear as to how or why it would apply to childish or adolescent sexual activity.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

I think the legal side of it was put rather clearly further up the thread here, by Sooz.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

"If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not."

What I'm trying to find out is if there actually IS a law against it. I gather that while everyone here has an opinion, no one actually knows ... which would lead me to wonder - if there is a law against it, how on earth would these kids know, if such an august body of learned, worldly adults as ourselves don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

First off, "Judge not" comes to mind. When married adults screw around outside their marriage they are breaking the law. Now, exactly what law were these kids breaking? Our disapproval is not a basis for punishment; there must be a law against it. If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Meself...I'm really not sure where the law stands when both parties are underage and I'm not altogether sure that we can lay blame on either party.

The young couple have the massive task of raising the little one when they are still trying to find out about themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

The Joy of Sex Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7892257.stm

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Exactly Kat. My children were taught about sex at home, before they were old enough to be self conscious of Mum talking about it. At the time we lived in an flat, with an open play area, and I wanted to make sure that they would heed the warning about talking to strangers and so explained what a peadophile was and what they did. Andrew had also been curious about where the baby in my stomach had come from, before Sharon was born.

Neither showed any inclination to experiment with sex in their early to mid teens. In fact, when my daughter dated her first serious boyfriend, I brought up the subject of birth control, only to be told off for even suggesting that she might do something like THAT at her age (16)! She told me that she considered that 18 was young enough and that her lad agreed with her.

Both my kids waited until they were in their 30s before having children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Am I the only one still stuck on the question of whether or not it is a "crime" for a twelve-old-year boy and a fifteen-year-old girl to engage in sexual activity? A couple of posters have asserted that it is; several have cited law that seems to imply adult/minor activity; even Richard Bridge's response was not conclusive (does "a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14" make a criminal of the fifteen-year-old girl?)

I'm mildly flabbergasted by the notion, to tell you the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

Jacqui, well put...we do need to make sure children have healthy self-images which can lead to the confidence to wait to have sex and to make a lot of "good" decisions in their lives.

Like you, I got pregnant while a teen, 16, and a mother by 17. My other two were born before I was 25 and I've been married three times; the third time was a charm for me. We're coming to our 29th.:-)

I didn't lack for love and support at home, though. I was just ready to be out in the world, away from my parents' supervision, and I enjoyed sex! Didn't know beans about preventing pregnancy as there was no sex ed back then AND a kid had to have their parents' permission for any kind of birth control pill, etc.

I have no regrets. I would not be who I am had things gone differently. That may seem an obvious statement, but who knows in what profound ways it may have been different. I am happy with who I am and I am proud of my kids, all three of them.

That said, all three of mine were offered information about sex, birth control and a SAFE place in which to experiment and none of them had children until they were in their late twenties. They knew they could come to me and talk about anything, as did their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

We live in sad times. No doubt there will be a line of "dogoers" offering help.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

If a crime has been committed here, which I doubt, surely the 'criminal' would be the older child - in this case the 15 year old girl - or are we saying that any girl is the victim of the boy who gets her pregnant?

I was sexually active from a young age, partly due to no sex education other than what the kids at school let loose and partly because I was so desperate for love and attention at that time that I would do just about anything for someone who showed me that attention.

I got pregnant at 17 and had three kids before I was 22. I've since been through three divorces before I met Kendall.

Now, looking back, I would have preferred a lot of that shit not to have happened, but it made me what I am today and I have two lovely children who I wouldn't change for the world. I've also managed to get to a point where I am happy with who I am, but that lesson took a long time to learn.

I see these young kids taking on responsibilities that can floor adults in secure relationships and wonder how in the hell they are going to cope. Thing is, a lot of them do and, maybe because their own home lives left a lot to be desired, they try to make their children's lives better. I hope that this is the case here.

IMHO you can give children all the sex education that you want but, if those kids are crying out for something that they aren't getting at home, they are quite likely to turn elsewhere for that closeness, which is craved by the majority of the human race. Then, when some one says "If you love me you will..." they will quite often have sex, just to keep that person close.

Maybe we all ought to be making sure that children, all of them, are given a good self image. Maybe we should be teaching respect, both for ourselves and for others, in schools - to me that is one of the most important lessons that any of us can learn.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Diva
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

What Khatt said in an earlier post, they are just weans themselves and this is an incredibly sad situation. Weans (children for the benfit of the non Scots speakers!)need boundaries and education and help when it goes wrong! Sadly this one looks like it will end up on Jeremy Kyle in a few years time.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

The mechanism of human sexuality is less determined by its biological function as it is by ensuring that human behaviour is such that procreation will, upon occasion, take place. Somewhere, no doubt, there will be statistics showing the proportion of instances of heterosexual intercourse that result in conception - and those that don't. Not only will this prove fascinating reading, but will effectively give the lie to the somewhat perverse notion that sexual intercourse is somehow about procreation and is, therefore, somehow natural to that end (the further implication being that homosexual intercourse is unnatural and therefore an abomination in the eyes of God).

The reality is such that we can effectively divorce sexual intercourse from procreation to the extent where the two things have nothing to do with one another in any sense that is other than purely coincidental. The impulse to make love, is not the impulse to procreate, and procreation is merely a random and by no means inevitable (or welcome) by-product of a procedure which is of far greater significance to the human cause than procreation will ever be.

*

I posted the above elsewhere, but feel it has relevance here in underlining the central hypocrisy of our oxymoronic system of sex education which bypasses the reality of human sexual behaviour by several light-years - at least it certainly did in my day (Nuffield Book 3 anyone?).

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM

Actually the reason some of my first sexual experiences were not shit, was probably down to the fact that my partner had stored away information on good sexual 'technique' from his sex ed. teacher - who had given the boys in his class explicit and detailed instructions on the right way to do it in order to make a woman 'happy'.

I think they even discussed stuff like rimming... A subject I sure never learned about in the classroom!

With the amount of rubbish porn out there on the internet that boys in particular will be accessing all the time, some 'realistic' sex instruction with boys, would probably be of benefit to the *girls* they then sleep with.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

Presumably the usual doli incapax rules would apply in the UK ie a conclusive presumption of innocence if the perp is under 10 (or is it 10 or under?) and a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14.

As far as I recollect when I was 12 or 14 we were all groping furiously or wishing that we were, and a sizeable and much envied minority were having sex - most of that minority (ie the active under 14s) being female.

It is usually useless to try to change human nature by prohibition or legislation.

I get quite vexed by those who want to prevent sex without some magic mantra.

I am convinced that the biggest cause of mental health problms in later life is the lack of a happy sex life. That is what we should be educating or preparing children to achieve, once they are capable of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

what about the parents of the 13 and 15 year old? one person said that the boys father is useless

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM

Sad thing about it is other kids will probably now see a way to become famous.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:04 AM

Saw the young parents on the news this morning and the boy does look very young indeed. The morning breakfast shows have been talking about sex ed and the reforms that are needed but parents need to take a role in educating their children too but I can understand them being embarrassed by it.

Schools need to promote sexual health and where teenagers can go to get themselves checked out and stress that it's nothing to be ashamed of to look after yourself. When I've started new relationships I've always got checked out because you can never be sure where the person has been before you or indeed where your exes have been. Luckily all tests came back negative. But I had an excellent education from school and parents.

The young mum will have been given a full STI check up as part of her ante natal care as it is standard practice these days if you have a baby on the NHS.

Like I've said before and others have said education is the key. These young parents are very nieve (sp?) and have to grow up too quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM

The best 'sex education' I got was in second year juniors! The kids were'nt embarrassed the teachers weren't embarrassed. We all found it very interesting. I remember learning that when a man and a lady 'make love' - at this point we illustrated our work with generally ananomically accurate drawings of nudey men and ladies lying together, cuddling or something :-) - then the lady grows a baby in her tummy. Can't remember the precise details about what it was the man was supposed to put into the lady, or where... In fact I don't think I've quite figured out the 'correct' procedures regarding that particular bit, yet myself. Which isn't helped much, by the fact that they seem to want to put it in allkinds of funny places!

Seriously though, my best friend at school was having sex at twelve with an eighteen year old boy. She was quite a sporty, confident girl. It all seemed like nothing much to me, back then, though now of course, I might see things somewhat differently...
And while she didn't get pregnant, I do recall another girl leaving school around age fourteen to have a child.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:50 AM

In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the same laws apply to heterosexual and homosexual activity and offences can be committed by anyone, male or female, over the age of 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility.

It is an offence to intentionally engage in sexual touching with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15.    'Touching' covers all physical contact, including touching with any part of the body, with anything else and through anything, for example, through clothing. It includes penetration.

A person aged 18 or over is liable to up to 14 years imprisonment for this offence.   A person under the age of 18 is liable to up to 5 years imprisonment.   A person may claim in their defence that they believed the young person to be over 16.

Intentional sexual touching of a young person under 13 is an absolute offence. This means there can be no defence in such a case that it was believed the person was over 16. Sexual touching which involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by the penis or penetration of the vagina or anus with a part of the body or any object is punishable by up to life imprisonment.    Sexual touching not involving penetration is punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:35 PM

"In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor."

Even if you are a minor? No, it's not the same where I live - at least, it's not a crime for minors to engage with each other in consensual sexual activity, as far as I've ever heard. Is that really a crime in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

In the US it is a crime to have sex with a minor. When you yourself are a minor it becomes a different issue.

Abuse and neglect of a child? Come on. You should know that in the US we approve of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor. In the UK it is a crime to neglect and child. Is it not the same wherever you live ?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:23 PM

"In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

"Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

"Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


"Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-)) " Nickhere

Let me elucidate, K?

Smoking when I thought of it as a rebellion was one thing

Smoking when I realized that I was harming only myself was a different thing entirely

Trying to avoid pregnancy is one thing

Trying to avoid sexually transmitted disease is another thing entirely.

Safe sex typically involves a condom.

Sex while wearing a condom rarely results in pregnancy

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

Crime? Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

John, you said "Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?"

I saw the story on television. I know I am getting on a bit, but incidents like this should not get the "social cuddle" treatment.

We are losing the fabric of society and when someone of my age speaks up I am told to shut up. I would charge the families with neglect, take the child into care and if the father of the child is a minor I would put him into a carehome. You may say that's harsh, but it would send out a message that the government hasn't lost the will to deal with crime, whatever you call it, it's crime.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

I would say, 'read Mark Twain', but as you haven't even read my post properly, it would seem like a superfluous piece of advice.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, that's an interesting analogy -
"An analogy here:

In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM

I never read it in the papers, It was on the ITV television news. Has all the television news channels got it wrong ? I doubt it.

The full story is all over the media. The families are all saying the same story. Please tell us what else you require to believe this story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

You realise that the basis of this thread is a newspaper article, and associated news media splashes?
Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?
Especially the so called 'Red tops'
So it is all based on information given by someone/some organisation, with an 'agenda'.
It is never a good idea to make judgements based on partial information, and I can bet none of us know the full story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

e had quite a good sex ed at high school both in science class and in PSE lessons, everything was covered

If everything was covered, how could you learn much?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Cool Beans
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

There really is an old British folk song about the very subject: "Lang A-Growing," sung by Ewan MacColl, Liam Clancy and others. The final verse begins:
In his twelfth year he was a married man
And in his thirteenth he had gotten her a son...

So much for (A) The moral deterioration of these kids today and (B) A folk song yet to be written. It's been done.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

Especially if you are under the impression that you can't get pregnant - 'the first time', 'standing up', 'before your voice breaks', 'during your period' or any number of other myths...

LTS