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Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?

wysiwyg 15 Feb 09 - 03:03 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM
wysiwyg 15 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM
Austin P 15 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM
wysiwyg 15 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM
JohnInKansas 15 Feb 09 - 10:28 PM
JohnInKansas 15 Feb 09 - 10:31 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 09 - 06:02 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 09 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 16 Feb 09 - 07:27 AM
wysiwyg 16 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM
Acme 16 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM
Bill D 16 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM
JohnInKansas 16 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM
Acme 16 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM
JohnInKansas 16 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM
Austin P 16 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM
Tootler 16 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM
Acme 16 Feb 09 - 05:12 PM
wysiwyg 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM
Acme 16 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM
wysiwyg 16 Feb 09 - 09:38 PM
JohnInKansas 16 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM
Acme 16 Feb 09 - 09:52 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 09 - 10:55 PM
JohnInKansas 17 Feb 09 - 03:12 AM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM
wysiwyg 17 Feb 09 - 09:00 AM
Acme 17 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM
JohnInKansas 17 Feb 09 - 12:05 PM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 12:21 PM
pavane 17 Feb 09 - 12:25 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM
JohnInKansas 17 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM
Acme 17 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 05:13 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 05:22 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 05:34 PM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM
JohnInKansas 17 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM
olddude 17 Feb 09 - 07:18 PM
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Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM
Bill D 17 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM
wysiwyg 17 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM
Austin P 17 Feb 09 - 07:43 PM
olddude 17 Feb 09 - 09:59 PM
wysiwyg 17 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Feb 09 - 02:38 AM
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Subject: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:03 PM

Is it feasible to run two puders online off the same modem with a cheap Y-splitter like I would split a phone line? Legal?

Yeah, I know, I should go wireless. Need quick cheep fix first-- baby steps. Also need to be able to run into various office puders' modems I'll visit.

So, to split or not to split?

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Wrong end. You need to put two computers into the modem, not two modems into a phone line - which would not work anyway. Cheap router or switch - about a tenner (sterling).


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

Yes I know-- one modem, with one port leading via ethernet into puders, adding a Y-splitter to attach the two puders. Question is, will this be a signal problem, etc.?

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

A splitter like that doesn't exist. Ethernet doesn't work like that ...

Each computer on an ethernet network has to have a unique number e.g.

Computer 1: 192.168.0.2
Computer 2: 192.168.0.3
Computer 3: 192.168.0.4

... and so on (the last digit is the significant one). These are what are termed network or ethernet addresses.

Each computer attaches to a router (via cable or wireless, same deal) which has a number such as

192.168.0.1

It is the router that acts a a "gateway" talks to the internet via the modem (cable or otherwise). To the modem, it looks like it is talking to a single computer - the router. The router keeps track of which computer asked for which website page and as the information comes in from the internet, it feeds the information the right address, down the right wire.

If you had a splitter, both computers would get the same information, and everything would get hopelessly confused very quickly (at the rate of millions of bits per second). Also, windows would point blank refuse to connect with a message like "another computer on the network already has that address" .

It's be like having a house "123 anystreet" with 2 apartments in it. To get the mail you need to address it to 123A or 123B.

Hope this is clearer than mud. Richard is right - get a router. (routers, switches and hubs all do a similar job, to make it more confusing) - Here's a cheap switch - this is essentiall a 5-way splitter!

Hope this makes sense. I need to get out more.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM

OK, willco.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:28 PM

Strongly recommended: Get a ROUTER.

Ethernet connections from each computer to the router.

Ethernet connection from the router to the modem.

Start|Settings|Network Connections and create a "simple network" or "home network" on ONE computer. Follow instructions to link the other computers in.

Once your router and simple network is set up, all the computers should be able to use the same router connection separately or all at the same time, and you also will be able to access files (if they're shared) between any of the computers. When you bring a laptop home you plug it into the router, and it's quickly joined to the network to dump/load files from any of the others. To take it back to work, you just unplug the ethernet cable to the router.

For dialup, you can use a modem built into one of the computers and turn on the ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) in the one with the router; and in this case you could probably get by with an "ethernet bridge" rather than a router. Theoretically you can put a second ethernet card in one computer, connect it to the external modem, and share the connection with the other computers via the ICS setup, but it's often difficult to get stable sharing with the simpler ethernet bridge at higher than dialup speeds.

Windws, since Win98, has included ICS and allows you to share a single modem connection with up to 8 computers, but -

Aside from being more stable (and faster) the router should have a "hardware firewall" of at least minimal performance built in.

The router is better.

Actually the router is quite a bit better.

In fact I'd say the router is a whole lot better.

If you were to ask, I'd say that the router is really the only way to go.

The router also should come with all the instructions needed to get it set up. You can likely find a 4-port router for $40 (US) or less, but since home networks tend to "grow" - and you might have guests - I'd recommend getting at least an 8-port. Some newer printers and scanners and such are available with ethernet ports, and it likely will be easier to plug them into a router so that they're automatically shared with all the computers than to plug them directly into one computer, set up sharing, and having to leave that computer turned on so that other computers can use the printer.

My 16-port was around $90 about a year ago, but I was optimistic about my "system growth" allowance. So far I've only used 7 at a time.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:31 PM

Mistyped above:

For dialup, you can use a modem built into one of the computers and turn on the ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) in the one with the router;

should be

For dialup, you can use a modem built into one of the computers and turn on the ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) in the one with the MODEM;

sorry.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 AM

a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/802-11g-Wireless-ADSL2-4-Port-Modem-Router_W0QQitemZ180323993526QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_Networking">Cheap router (UK spec) on ebay UK


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:02 AM

Second time lucky


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:05 AM

For networking in homes I am a fan of the "Homeplug" stuff, that uses the mains wiring. In the UK at least "Homeplug" is an accepted standard so that one maker's stuff should work with other makers' stuff. Homeplug 1 is rated up to 85 Mbps (but usually manages about 30, stll wellfaster than the internet) and I think the Homeplug 2 standard is up to 200Mbps now. Use one router modem and then plug as many homeplugs into the wall around your house as you like.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:27 AM

I must say Richard's recommendation of the Homeplug route isn't a bad idea. It might avoid glitches like the following:

Last year I foolishly tried to upgrade the firmware on my Netgear wireless router, thinking I might get my kids off my back ("Dad, it's taking me 12 hrs to illegally download Moulin Rouge - why?"). The net result was a t*ts up network, about 5 firmware reloads from various CDs, and about 20 support e-mails back and forth to the dreaded AOL (thank God I could still somehow get e-mails out from the home PC via Explorer). Took me 2 days to get back to normal - and I worked in IT for 30 plus years!

Mind you with wireless I suppose you CAN sit in the garden with your laptop - and swear at the illegible TFT screen!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

OK.....

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM

Susan, Austin explained it right.

I have a Netgear wireless router I took out of service when I put in a new cable modem and router. It worked fine with DSL but I wanted to switch to a slightly different newer system. This would work for wireless or wired. If my move is typical, you may find a few spare routers if you check around among your acquaintances or via Freecycle or one of those other redistribution systems. Or see if you have a local used equipment store. There's one I've heard about here that I've never visited, but they have lots of used stuff at very low prices, no guarantees, etc. It sounds like the kind of business that could pop up anywhere as a place to go for items when people want to keep computer systems going on a budget.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

"...you may find a few spare routers if you check around among your acquaintances ..."

I did just that recently. Got a used, but nice LinkSys router from a friend. Cable goes into modem, modem feeds router, router feeds two computers. Rita & I can be online at the same time. (This router can be either or both wired & wireless...so far, I use it just wired, as the 2 machines are just a few feet apart.)
If I set up a PC downstairs someday, I may still have to run cable, as I have steel beams embedded in a concrete floor to go thru.

I haven't managed to make it work as a network yet, as I 'think' I don't have the naming conventions set up right, but when I have time.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

Bill D -

One of the problems with getting a network set up is that usually the computer that owns the files has to be told to "share" them before other computers on the network can see them.

In Windows, you just right click on the folder (or drive) that you want other computers to be able to use, click Properties, and you should find a tab marked "Sharing." Windows objects if you try to share the root on the system drive, but any non-system folder there, or any other complete drive or sub-folder can be easily shared. There is some control over what kind(s) of users have access.

The method is similar for other operating systems, but I can't offer details. You may find the instructions under something like "setting privileges."

You usually also have to "define a network" by given the network a name. The network definition/setup usually should be done on only one computer, and once that's done the other computers only "join" the network. Trying to create the network on more than one computer can result in confused computers.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

I haven't figured out the network part either. It might make it a little easier for my son to print, just drag files to my computer and print in here. Cheaper than buying a print server. But I haven't been motivated to figure it out.

I have my son's computer in the living room wired now, I ran a cable from the wall plug in my office up into the attic and down to a phone jack plug next to his computer. I plug the #2 router slot into that wall jack, and he plugs in to the connection next to his computer. Much better than the wireless signal before, it was always kind if iffy, probably because the hot water heater was marginally in the path of the router signal.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM

Windows has been "sort of" capable of setting up a simple local network since Win 3.11WG, but in the early days it was something of a hassle, instructions were confusing and misleading, and the networks were less than ideally stable. Most people only set one up in order to share a (dial up) modem on one of the computers.

Setting up the network, called a "Workgroup" in olden times, was one step, and setting up the modem sharing was something separate called ICS (Internet Connection Sharing). The modem usually was connected to one computer, and ICS was set up on it. Other computers merely "shared" the connection without a separate ICS setup. With early Win98, if you made the mistake of setting up ICS on more than one computer, everything crashed, and the "extra" setup could only be removed by "deconstructing the systems" via Registry edits, file removal scripts and lots of other really messy stuff.

Win98SE made things a lot better and later systems have (mostly) continued to make it easier. If you have two computers connected to each other, or both connected to the same "anything else" you should have little trouble* sharing files between the computers or sharing other devices connected to either of them with the other computer.

* "little trouble," of course is relative, sometimes being a euphemism for #!@$%!#, but it actually is a lot better than back when.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

I do know about the 'sharing' rights, John...but after telling this PC to share a folder, I can't find any place where the other PC recognizes the connection and 'sees' that folder.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Bill D:

Look in Windows Explorer (press the windows key and 'E' at the same time). In the folders on the left you should see 'my network places' drill down that until you get to 'Workgroup' or MSHOME'. You should now see the other computers and printers on your network (all computers on the network have to have the same network name - usually one of the two just mentioned).

If you don't run the network wizard.

Remember you have to explicitly share folders and printers on each machine. Simply right click on the folder and select sharing. When you share a folder it displays with a little hand under the yellow folder.

This works fine in XP home. XP professional sharing can be a little trickier.

Austin

As a bootnote this is really useful if you have kids with netbooks which don't have DVD drives, you can share the one on your tower over the network!.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

I'm up to "here" with wifi.

When we got cable broadband, the technician who connected the cable link up recommended we used wifi round the house so I bought a wifi router and wifi cards for the computers. All worked fine initially until the wifi router failed and would not connect. After much trial, I eventually got another router, had that set up professionally and again all was fine till I bought a new computer and found that the router would not accept the security code. The same happened with my Acer Aspire One netbook. At the same time, my daughter was complaining that she was continually losing her wireless connection on her old desktop machine, though this was getting to the point of needing replacing. This was all very frustrating to say the least.

At about that time I had seen an article about homeplug adaptors so I had a scout about and bought a Devolo starter kit from Amazon (UK). I tested it on my daughter's new computer. It was as easy as they claimed. Plug one into the router and the other into the ethernet port on the computer and - hey presto! instant connection. I downloaded Firefox and the download speed was much faster than the wifi had ever been. As a result I disconnected the wireless connection on my computer and replaced it with a homeplug and I find it much better. The computers downstairs are both directly connected to the routers with ethernet cables so the homeplug is not needed there. I have tested the homeplug in the conservatory with an old laptop and it worked fine. Overall I am very happy with the homeplug system. Much better than wifi IMO.

As an aside, I have noticed that on my computer I was typically getting 100 - 150 kB/s download speeds but recently I have installed Ubuntu Linux and with that I am regularly getting over 200 and up to 300 kB/s. Download speeds are definitely faster with Linux than with Windows - at least on my computers.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:12 PM

I think the electrical system (the size and shape of the plugs, and the voltage) won't permit those systems you're talking about to work here in the U.S., if one was purchased from the U.K. I haven't looked to see if there is something comparable, though I have heard people grumble on occasion that we should have something like that here.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

Nyah nyah, I have a birthday coming up, and you are all doing a GREAT job of telling my son what I need and can use! :~)

Because of course the answer is, BOTH. Ethernet for home and wireless for travel. In the meantime, I'll make do with a flash key to move work from one machine to the other.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:48 PM

Are they in the same room? You could log onto one, work on it, email your work to yourself to be retreived after you log off that computer, plug in the phone line to the other one, dial up, log on, and get the email.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:38 PM

Oh yeah, I know, but no, they'll be on two different floors and there's no cable line upstairs.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM

There are numerous systems available in the US that can piggy-back computer connections over house wiring (or phone wiring) but none of them have been very widely popular. The biggest problem is that they have been marketed here as "complete systems" and when you get to something that they don't include they're not expandable using stuff from any of the other systems - or from real computer systems.

(They may actually be expandable/extensible but they don't tell you how in useful terms.)

The first requirement for getting more than one computer in on the act is, of course, to connect at least two computers together.

Option(?) 1: In the hard-wired world, connecting two computers can be done with an ethernet "crossover cable" similar to the serial port "zero modem" cables that some old-timers might be familiar with.

Disadvantage number one of the crossover cable connection is that, although you can connect two computers this way, it becomes exruciatingly complex to connect three, and even harder to connect two computers both to one or more "ethernet capable external devices."

Disadvantage number two is that a "crossover cable" is usually about twice as expensive as a normal ethernet cable, is hard to find, and doesn't really do very much for you.

Disadvantage number three is that, for easy communication, you probably will want a "communication program" specifically designed for this particular kind of connection. In fact the easiest way to get the cable is probably to by a "connection kit" that includes both the cable and the software, but that doesn't really do much except "connect two computers."

Option 2: (which unlike option one is a real-world "solution") is to get an ethernet bridge, connect both (or all) your computers to the bridge, and then create a "simple network." In Windows, since Win98, at Start|Settings|Network settings, you should find all you need to do to "create a local network" on one computer. Default names for the network will vary with what Windows version you use, but "MS Home" has been the recent favorite. It seems to work better if you accept the default name; but you can change it if you like.

You can follow the instructions to create a transfer disk to add the settings to the other computers, which you can do if you're not adapted to "power thinking" with your computer, or you can just go to each of the other computers and "join" them into the network.

If you attempt to "create a network" on more than one of your computers, everythiing gets f**d up, since the computer that creates a network is automatically assigned the local address 1.192.168.1 (it's a unique address, and I think that's the right one) and having two computers both with the same address will completely confuse all the computers. The other computers must simply find the network created on the first one, and then "join in."

To be able to share files between the two or more computers on the newly created network, the files (or folders or drives) must be "shared" on the computer where they live. In Windows Explorer, if you right-click on a file/folder/drive, and select properties (or in some versions just select "sharing" directly after the right-click), you should find a "sharing" tab where you can specify who is allowed to look at the part of your computer that you've clicked into.

Again in Windows Explorer, if you use "folder view" and scroll down toward the bottom in the left panel, you should find a "Network" folder on any of the computers that has "joined the network." You should be able to open up that folder and look at any shared drives/folders/files on other computers that have also been joined to the network. You may or may not see files/folders/drives that are not shared; but you won't be able (easily) to access them unless the "computer that owns them" (or sometimes the user who owns them) has designated them as shared.

If you're using the simple ethernet bridge to connect the computers, if one of the computers has a modem suitable for internet access directly connected to it, the computer that has the modem can "share the modem" using Internet Connection Sharing (ICS). ONLY the computer with the modem should be set up for ICS, and to share the modem. Other computers should just "find and use" the shared connection. All the necessary settings should, once again, be found in Start|Settings|Network Connections, or in the connection settings for your browser and/or email program

If the modem needs an ethernet connection to the computer, the "owner computer" must have two separate ethernet cards - one to connect to the modem and the other to connect to other computers.

Option three, and the really best one, is to replace the "ethernet bridge" with an ethernet router. In this case, an external (ethernet) modem is connected to the router, rather than to one of the computers, and the sharing of the connection is set up on the router. The network setup is basically the same, with ONE COMPUTER creating the network, and the other computers just "joining" it.

On both bridges and routers, it's common to have one "master port" where the modem must be connected (and thorugh the modem, where the connection to your internet services connects). Some routers may have more than one "master" port, but few have more than two; so you do have to pay attention to which port is used for the modem.

Wireless connections usually are much the same as for the "ethernet with router" setup, although details may vary. Since I live in a "black hole" where even cell phones don't work very well, I've avoided wireless and probably shouldn't attempt to comment.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:52 PM

John, do you have time for a life? You spend so much time explaining how things work over here at Mudcat!

;-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:55 PM

Well...Austin and JiK, I get the little yellow hand, but I get weird results when I try to find those folders on the other machine.

I'm gonna do a screen capture or 2 and post 'em tomorrow...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:12 AM

One small detail omitted up above, since it's a fairly prominent step in the Network set up, is that each computer you want to have participate on the network needs to have a "NAME." If you don't have a unique name for each computer, you may have two computers both named "" and the network gets puzzled.

On the computer that needs a name, in Windows Explorer, you should be able to right-click on Computer, in the left panel. On the drop-down, select Properties, and it should show you a bunch of info about the computer and how it's setup. In Vista, the window you get is obviously "shortcutted" to the same view you get with Start|Settings|Control Panel|System. Other versions should be similar, but possibly not identical.

You should be able to add or change a "computername" there, although the exact procedure may look a little different depending on your Windows version.

If you name (or re-name) a computer, you may need to "join" (or re-join) it into the network with the new name.

If you name your computer "PizzaSheet" other computers will find it as "\\PizzaSheet." The double backslash identifies a network name that's not really needed for wandering around on your own computer but is necessary for the network to function. Folders on it (viewed on other computers) will have a full path like:

"\\PizzaSheet\C:\Documents\MudcatInfo\"

Although there are only a few times when you need to use the "\\computername" format, getting your computers joined up on your local net may be one of them. Sometimes you can just type the name, and a setup wizard will supply the "\\" for you. Sometimes when it does it for you it will show it that way, but in some Win versions all you see is what you typed - but it works.

The \\computername form is also occasionally useful in Command (DOS) window maneuverings, although you can use Win Explorer "Map Network Drive" to make a shared folder on another machine look like a "drive" on your own machine, and once mapped you can just use the drive letter (X:\, Y:\, etc) for searching, copying, backups, etc. in the Command Window.

You may also (rarely) need to put a \\computername in when searching for a printer on another networked computer. Usually you can just "browse" to find them, but once in a while you'll have to "power steer" the printer wizard to the right one, if the wizard can't find it on its own.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM

Nice one john ... plus a few points:

1. The default gateway address is usually 192.168.0.1
2. Default subnet mask is 255.255.255.0 (translation - ignore all the numbers except the last one)
3. NEVER give your computer the same name as your login. An undocumented bug in windows. It throws a shit-fit.
4. Ignore 1 and 2. If you are using a router, it will automatically assign 1 and 2 for your computer at boot-up time.

Bill: You are right. I really do need to get out more. Unfortunately I do this for a living. Folk music I do for fun.

:o)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:00 AM

A Gathering where all the people do puder stuff, instead of sing...... nope.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM

That's called "going to work," Susan. I do a lot of it myself, also.

I wonder if Joe Offer runs a little bet with himself to see which of several computer hardware and/or software techies around here will hit on a new Tech question first. We're like fish in a barrel. (Though I think JiK wins hands down. . .)

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM

Ok...I'm awake now and reading the latest additions to the details. I'm SURE I haven't properly told each PC what the other one's name is. (They do each have separate names)

I will delve into those suggestions and see if I can get it right.
(I may have to delete a couple of INcorrect settings)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

One confusion...

John...you said: "The network definition/setup usually should be done on only one computer, and once that's done the other computers only "join" the network. "

But the network setup wizard says you should run it for both computers. Maybe I misunderstand, and there are two different routines...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

From Me onwards you can make a floppy with the networking wizard on and use that on other computers.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:05 PM

Unfortunately we finished going through all of our few hundred music books and sending everything of interest to Mudcat and the DT a few years ago.

Since all we know about music is what we read in the books, there's little left for us to contribute musically; but it was so much fun we just can't help hanging around.

Since computer stuff is about the only thing I never studied up on much, it's about the only "recreational" subject left that I can gab about here.

(Not really knowing much is a real help, since I don't have to be too embarassed when I screw something up. Talking about stuff I actually think I know something about is too much like work, and I quit doing that several years - I could almost say decades - ago.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM

Bill: The wizard will prompt you to save a little program on to a floppy or USB flash drive. You then run that program on all the other 'slave' computers. This sets all the others up automatically.

AP


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM

Wiki stuff about networking via mains - including USA


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:21 PM

ahhh...Ok, Austin...I'll try that. I have flash drives and CDs aplenty.

(Just as soon as my wife gives me access to HER machine. IT's tax time and SHE does 'em...and I don't want to interfere with that! )


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: pavane
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:25 PM

You can have hours of fun trying to get Vista to speak to XP, especially if you have NORTON and a firewall installed!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

I have refused to have anything to do with Vista...I hear too many scary stories. I just don't like the direction MS is heading and their attempts to control what programs you run. I am gradually learning a few things about Linux...just in case.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM

Bill D.

You do the setup, including creating and naming the network, on one computer. Recent windows versions will ask if you want to make a disk to transfer the settings to the other computers, and you can use the disk or just poke in the settings. The settings that are transfered include telling the other computers what the network name is, so that they can find it and "take a number" to be identified on the net.

The only difference is that on the first computer you "create" and "name" the network, on the others you just let tell them what the name is, and let them find the network. Then you make sure all the details/settings are right. On the first computer it's an act of creation. On the rest of the machines it's just a matter of writing down the right laws made by the creator on the piece of rock.

A somewhat similar situation occurs if you want the simple-minded Internet Connection Sharing that came in with Win3.11 to let all the computers use a modem attached directly to just one of them. With it, ICS must be turned on ONLY on the one computer that has the modem directly connected to it. You tell the other computers only that there is a computer with a modem they can use, and the other computers look for the shared modem. If two computers both have ICS turned on, they'll both have the same 192.168.0.1 identity and it will all crash. The first computer that takes that name will tell the other computers what different 192.168.0.x id to use, via a simple (so simple it's nearly brain dead) utility. Only the computer directly attached to the modem in this system can have the #1 and it must be #1. The numbers for the other computers don't often get changed, but it can happen, so if you're adding an "ethernet printer" or other device into the network on which you assign a fixed number, it's a good idea to use a "high number" in the last place, like (192.168.0.190). The computer that keeps track of the other "sharing" computers for ICS purposes is nearly brainless so it uses mostly low numbers. (Most "routerless" Windows networks are limited to 8 computers, so it doesn't need to count very far.)

Through early Win98, if you accidentally got two computers set up with ICS turned on, it was a real mess; because the only way to turn one off was to remove Internet Explorer. Since IE is an integral part of Windows, lots of things would turn to crap if you tried to run without putting some version of IE back in place.

You can remove a version of IE without much problem, but that only backs Windows up to a previous version. There's a basic version for each Windows OS version that can't be removed without destroying the whole system, so you have to carefully remove the proper bits and then reinstall a fresh (at least the basic) version before you're operable. This involved significant Registry edits, and manual deletion of something like 30 "protected system files" that had to be restored from setup disks before the machine would turn back on.

With later Win versions, they figured out how to let you just "turn off ICS" so it's no longer a problem. Latest versions have "buried" the ICS idea into network setup, so you aren't really likely to recognize it. You'll just be asked what kind of modem connection you have and the wizard should take care of it.

You still can use ICS to let all the networked machines use the same modem, but it's a much more stable and better performing setup if you insert a router and let the router handle the modem.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

JIK

Ah, you say it most eloquently!

1. Windoze is (still) crap.
2. ICS is crap.
3. Use a modem/router.

Joking aside, one situation where you might want to use ICS is where you want to restrict access to the internet, i.e. the kids can only get on line when Mums/Dads computer is connected. A number of my clients do this.

AP


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM

Ok...I am going in circles here. I 'thought' I made the setup 'disk' using a flash drive. It asked me if I wanted to make setup disk and I said yes...It put a file called 'netsetup' on the flash, and I ran it...but all it was, was the same wizard I can run from XP, and it did nothing new.

Now, *IF* I have done too much..that is, something wrong, out of order or using the wrong names..etc...how do I start over so as to do as John says, in that specific order?

As of now, both machines say they are aware of a network, and that it is functioning, but somehow, it does not recognize the assigned letter (Z) to be functioning. As of now, I do not see any // connections when I open either Windows Explorer (which I dislike) or several other file managers which I trust to find ANYTHING.

*wry grin*...This is like a narrow road with mud: it's hard to go forward, but it ain't clear how to turn around or back up.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Acme
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Have you tried going into My Computer and mapping the drives?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM

Have you shared any folders on the other machines?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:13 PM

I have told THIS machine *B* to share 2 folders, and I see the appropriate icon indication on them. The other machine *A* knows there is a network, but it cannot see any indication OF where *B* is, or that it has folders to share.

"Mapping the drives"...this askes me to specify the drive and/or folders I want to connect to, but gives me a list of drive letters that have little relation to anything. A,B...then M->Z. It offers NO suggestions for folders, but gives //server/share as an example, and of course, I have nothing like that listed...


I have this...Mycomputer

then this when I try to 'map network drives'... network

This is my basic setup... http://home.comcast.net/~somethingextree/MyComputer1.jpg


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:22 PM

I am about 97% sure that I have some incorrect naming convention that computer *A* is trying to find..(that is, it was told a name that doesn't exist ...at least in the places it knows to look.) It now has some useless parameters that it simply can't make sense of.

I may just see if I can delete all references to incorrect names and perhaps I can start at the beginning.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:34 PM

Now.... IF I had done things correctly, the other machine..*A*.. would be looking for, according to John's notes, \\BLUEROOM\C:Bill\songs

(computer *B* has the official name BLUEROOM)
But it has this list of drive letters, with Z at the top of the list, and with an option for 'none'....and it flatly says it can't find anything.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM

OK.
Sounds like your machines have different 'workgroup' names. check they are both in the MSHOME workgroup (stupid name, stupid company).

AP


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM

I wish it were that easy...MSHOME is the only one I see. (Is upper/lower case relevant for the name of the workgroup?)?)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

Bill D -

In the first and third links you posted, you need to go UP one level and click on Desktop (or My Desktop). Collapse all the levels you see as you go up so that the only line showing is "My Desktop."

When you click the "+" beside that one, it should open up just the top string of subfolders, and you should see:

My Desktop
      My Documents
      My Computer
      My Network Places

There may be a couple of other things, like Recycle Bin and maybe Control Panel, depending on options you've set.

When you click on "My Network Places" and open it (click the +) you may see other computers, but most likely you'll see the Network Name (MS Home).

Click on the MS Home and you should see other computers and maybe printers and such.

If you don't see the MS Home (assuming you used the default name) it means that the computer you're on hasn't found the network, or that the network hasn't been actually created successfully.

If you see the network MS Home but there are no computers/drives in it, it probably means that the computers where the wannabe shared drives are located haven't "joined the network" - or it could just mean that the drives haven't been shared by the computer/user where they're located.

Usually if a computer has been joined in, you'll see drives on it even if they're not shared. Seeing them doesn't mean you'll be able to access them.

To share a drive or just a folder that's on the machine you're using, you right-click the "thing" you want shared, and on the drop down menu click "Sharing and Security." There are a couple of tabs there where you can choose whether or not the thing is shared, and how.

On the "Sharing" tab, there should be a place to enter a "share name." You'll likely be sharing a folder so the name here is the name you want other people to see for that folder. You shouldn't really need to put the computername in, since the computer and the network both know what that is. If you enter "Trash," someone on another machine should see it as

"Trash on \\BigBill\Documents\Trash,"

or something fairly similar.

Once the drive or folder appears in the "My Network Places\MS Home" folder, you should be able to use WinExplorer Tools|Map network drives to give it a "drive letter."

Custom is that drives on the machine start with A:\, B:\, C:\, D:\ etc. Also by custom - and in many OS versions by unbreakable rule, A and B are reserved for "floppies."

Again by custom, network drives (on another machine) start with Z:\ and work backwards throug Y:\, X:\, W:\ etc, and the machine probably will give you the default of the next lower available letter when you map a new one. You don't have to use the default, unless you're hide-bound traditional; but sometimes it's easiest to follow the mob.

Once a network drive is mapped on your own computer, you'll see it in the "My Computer" space in WinExplorer, in the rather messy form:

"Trash on \\BigBill\Documents\Trash (X)"

At least the "X" puts it up where it looks like a drive on your own computer, and you can just use "X:\" to call for it in things like

"XCOPY X:\*.* /s /d /c"

instead of writing out the entire

"XCOPY \\BigBill\Documents\Trash\*.* /s /d /c" blob to do something.

IFF you have set passworded users on any of the computers, the user on any other computer that wants to access a shared drive may still need to have a user name and password that's valid on the computer where the drive/folder lives. (This usually doesn't appear as a problem until you move up(?) to Vista.) If that's the case, when you click on a apparently shared drive you should get an immediate "access denied" and whoever drives that computer may need to enter you as an authorized user on the drive's home machine.

(Vista is much more stubborn about requiring "external users" to be valid users on the shared location's home machine; but it's really not that much of a problem once you understand what it's whining about.) If both machines have a user "dingle" with password "bafflegarb" the user is "dingle" with password "bafflegarb" for all the machines on that network, regardless of which machine is in front of him/her - - - - usually. (There are no real guarantees.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:18 PM

cable modem to a switch
then put as many as you want
or go wireless

Susan I will send you a switch
that is faster then a hub

Dan


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

A switch is a device for a network to reduce collisions of packets
it is much faster then a typical hub

you will see virtually no noticeable performance issue


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM

so... I am guessing that this applies...

"If you don't see the MS Home (assuming you used the default name) it means that the computer you're on hasn't found the network, or that the network hasn't been actually created successfully."

because this is what I see under "My network places"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM

I truly appreciate all the suggestions and time...I will go thru all of them s-l-o-w-l-y again, but I'll bet I need to get someone HERE to sit down and muddle thru it all. There are so many places I could have done something that screwed up the settings in the many windows and menus.....

Thanks, guys and gal.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM

Susan I will send you a switch
that is faster then a hub


Will I know what to do with it??? Will I need to do what Bill is doing?

Do you know you are only about 3 hours away from me and Hardi? :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Austin P
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:43 PM

Tech:

A hub broadcasts signed packets: (192.168.0.2 / 192.168.0.3 /192.168.0.4 ) down a single wire. This is a holdover from old (like me) linear network configurations (daisy chains). Hubs are slow when you have more than 2 computers on the network.

Now. Routers are smarter. They send it down the right wire. (a 'star' configuration).

Christ. I hate technology.

AP

PS. Chorus of one of my songs (I'm in love with the SatNav Girl) with no words:

D.I.V.O.R.C.E
4.A.G.P.S.P.D.A.
D.I.V.O.R.C.E
4.A.G.P.S.P.D.A.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:59 PM

plug the cable you normally plug into your pc, instead plug it into the device I will send you, Then just plug your pcs into the device

bam ... all screaming fast. How many PC's i can give you a switch for 4 PC's or one of my Extreme summit 48 switchs for 48 PC's


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM

48???????

I never even had that many guests at a Mudcat Gathering, and those that came didn't bring computers!

Four's gonna be my limit, believe me!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:38 AM

Bill D -

In your linked "My Network Places" your "My Network Places" contains a "My Network Places" that definitely is "unexpected." Note also that the "My Network Places" inside "My Network Places" has the same (what shows of it) "Comments" as "The Dell." The identical, or at least very similar, comment would suggest that both of these came from the same source, but I can't make a good guess of where they came from or how they got there. Being mysterious doesn't mean they're wrong, but using a "standard system name" for something apparently is installed is not normally a "good thing to do."

My Vista, at least for this bit of WinExplorer display is a lot cleaner, but of course is irrelevant here.

From LiK's WinXP Pro, what I'd expect you to see would be something like:

Desktop
    My Documents
    My Computer
    My Network Places
        Entire Network
            Microsoft Terminal Services
            Microsoft Windows Network
                MShome
                    Computer A
                    Computer B
                    Computer C
            Web Client Network
            A Shared Folder on Computer A
            A Shared Folder on Computer B
            A Shared Folder on Computer C
            Recycle Bin

On LiK's machine, the "Microsoft Terminal Services" and "Web Client Network" are empty folders, because we don't use anything that would go in them. They show up in WinXP Pro if your network installs protocols the could use them even if nothing actually does use them, and they may or may not show up regardless in WinXP Home.

The machine you're at should show along with any others on your network.

When you click on "My Network Places" (the real one) in the left panel, you should see two or three "wizards" in the right panel. There should be "Add Network Place," "Network Setup Wizard," and possibly "Wireless Setup Wizard." They're not there in your screen shot, so you might look in the other My Network Places and see if maybe it's the real one. It may also be just a difference between the Home and Pro versions of XP.

In particular, the Add Network Place can be used to put anything you eventually can get into in the list of "A Shared ..." junk at the bottom of the view you're trying to get, so a mellofahess of crap sometimes shows up. Deleting extraneous shared locations just takes them out of your list, and shouldn't otherwise affect how they show up on other machines.

My Network Places can "contain" more than one network, but at least for early versions that included this simple(?) networking, can only "legally" have one "peer-to-peer" network of the kind you're wanting to get working. Since MShome doesn't appear in your screen shot, unless it's in the other "\My Network Places\My Network Places" either the network hasn't been created, or this computer hasn't been "joined" into it so that it's recognized.

Some "appearance things" here have changed from time to time on our machines, and I can't say whether it's due to system updates or to changes we've made in our own stuff. WinXP is pretty good about giving you what you need for your setup, without a lot of "extras," but sometimes other stuff does show up without any explanation.

A common point of confusion in creating your kind of network is trying to create - or join - a "real" network. If the choice contains the word "domain" or "server" it's the wrong one for what you're trying to do. I can't be a lot more specific because of differences between OS versions and update status - at least without poking into one of our surviving XP machines, which are both XP Pro and could still be quite a bit different than XP Home.

Almost a side note: "When things get messy - reboot." When you get an excess of multiply defined overlapping ineracting crap all trying to run at cross-purposes with nothing looking like it should, quite often a reboot will let Windows "sort out the chaff" so that you don't continue having the things you're now doing right blocked by junk from when you did something right differently. On a "home network," sometimes it helps to reboot all of the machines at the same time, or at least restart them all before you continue scratching at it.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:15 AM

"When you click on "My Network Places" (the real one) in the left panel, you should see two or three "wizards" in the right panel. There should be "Add Network Place," "Network Setup Wizard," and possibly "Wireless Setup Wizard." They're not there in your screen shot, so you might look in the other My Network Places and see if maybe it's the real one. "

Yep John...I have seen and tried all those locations. I think that some of the 'problem' items in my list came from trying to DO "Add Network Place" before everything was properly configured. As you might guess, after going thru all those menus and confronting 'wizards' that are less-than-concise about exactly what they expect you to do or have done, it has become .... ummmm.. "muddled" in my head. *wry grin*

This is really the first time in 13 years that I have not been able to carefully work my way thru a computer issue and eventually GET it to work, and thereby extract MY explanation so that I can then show someone else... (Like the discovery of where items are stored in temp & cache files and how to access them)

I am tracing this thread, as I'm sure that between your explanations & Austin's, I can get it done *if* I can find my way back to the beginning with previous 'mellofahesses' erased..*grin* (My mother said 'mellofahess' all the time)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Ethernet Y-Splitter for Cable Modem?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM

Bill D -

I've been using the Home Network setup since early Win98. I tried it with WWG3.11 but never really got it to do much.

I used ICS via a dialup modem built into one of our desktops until we switched to DSL about a year ago. (Actually burned out at least three modems while doing so, but it wasn't from anything I said - it was lightning and thunder storms.)

It actually has gotten a little better. If everything works the first time - as it usually does since WinXP - it's great. If something doesn't work, it remains one of the more difficult "cleanups" because it's still hard to figure out just what's causing the problems.

When I was forced to add a Vista machine to my formerly "all-XP" setup, I ended up with two "local networks" in the mix, that blocked getting all the machines to work for a while, and found that there really isn't any way to remove one once it's been created. The solution there was to re-create a new one (with the same name as the existing one that I wanted. After making sure that nothing was joined to the other one it eventually "went away" but I have no real explanation for how it got removed.

***

Clarification for some others:

A hub is a device for connecting multiple devices on a network. The simplest hub is a passive hub that just joins all the devices. A devices sends something to the hub, and a passive hub sends it to all the other devices. The devices have to decide whether to accept or ignore the signal.

A "switch" is still a hub, more correctly called a "switching hub" and is much like the "passive hub" except that it tries to decide which device the signal is supposed to go to, and sends it on only to the device intended. This leaves the lines to the other devices somewhat more clear, and with a good "switching hub" (a.k.a. "switch") other signals between devices can be moving at the same time, so the speed is (potentially) greatly increased. It still is intended for communicating between devices within a single network.

A router incorporates - in somewhat over-simplified terms - all of the capabilities of a switch/switching hub but with some additional gimmickery to allow signals to pass between networks, so that (in theory) devices on one network can talk back and forth with devices on a different network.

The "Home Network" we've been talking about her is a simplified Local Area Network (LAN) of a sort. (The term peer-to-peer network sometimes comes up.) While it's seldom thought of as being one, if you have an external USB hub, or more than one USB card in your computer, the "USB system" actually is a separate network.

WinXP Pro will (at least should) automatically insert a "bridge" between the "Home Network" and the "USB Network," if you have both, to prevent "looping" and "crosstalk" between the two networks. WinXP Home probably will do this, but I can't be sure how well. Earlier Windows OS versions usually worked okay, but sometimes need a little "manual assistance."

A "hub" (passive hub) is a basic requirement. A "switch" (switching hub) is quite a bit better, especially for giving better speed. A router is a whole lot better, if it's justified by the complexity of your setup. They're (somewhat) priced accordingly, but the price difference isn't really all that great if you get the one that fits your needs.

John


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