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Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past

DigiTrad:
CURRAGH OF KILDARE
THE IRISH LOVERS (CURRAGH OF KILDARE)
THE LAMENTING MAID (CURRAGH OF KILDARE)


Related threads:
Chords: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past (28)
Origins: Curragh of Kildare (61)


Rich Kelly 28 Jun 99 - 11:46 AM
28 Jun 99 - 01:35 PM
Alan of Australia 29 Jun 99 - 10:00 AM
Alice 29 Jun 99 - 02:29 PM
Alice 29 Jun 99 - 02:32 PM
29 Jun 99 - 05:25 PM
Alice 29 Jun 99 - 10:36 PM
Alan of Australia 30 Jun 99 - 01:50 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 30 Jun 99 - 09:45 AM
Penny S 30 Jun 99 - 07:35 PM
The_one_and_only_Dai 01 Jul 99 - 08:49 AM
Penny S 01 Jul 99 - 01:23 PM
Margaret V 02 May 00 - 11:31 AM
GUEST 02 May 00 - 12:24 PM
GUEST 02 May 00 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Phil Cooper 02 May 00 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 02 May 00 - 06:01 PM
Margaret V 02 May 00 - 06:59 PM
Alice 02 May 00 - 11:43 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 10 - 04:31 AM
Dave MacKenzie 27 Apr 10 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 27 Apr 10 - 04:51 AM
Dave Hanson 27 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM
RTim 27 Apr 10 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Albert O'Einstein 27 Apr 10 - 10:24 AM
Dave MacKenzie 27 Apr 10 - 10:35 AM
Leadfingers 27 Apr 10 - 11:46 AM
Newport Boy 27 Apr 10 - 11:50 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM
Leadfingers 27 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM
Dave MacKenzie 28 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM
Jim McLean 28 Apr 10 - 05:10 AM
Jim McLean 28 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM
Fiolar 28 Apr 10 - 07:45 AM
RobbieWilson 28 Apr 10 - 07:01 PM
Tattie Bogle 28 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM
mg 28 Apr 10 - 11:14 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Apr 10 - 11:38 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM
Jim McLean 29 Apr 10 - 04:55 AM
Newport Boy 29 Apr 10 - 05:06 AM
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Subject: Curragh of Kildare
From: Rich Kelly
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:46 AM

Hi,

Anyone know the origins of this song? Is it old or a fairly recent addition, like The Fields of Athenry?

Rich


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From:
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 01:35 PM

See "Winter it is passed" in the Scots Tune Index at www.erols.com/olsonw for early copies of text and tune.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 10:00 AM

G'day,
"Folksongs & Ballads popular in Ireland" says: "Taken down at different times by collectors like Petrie and Joyce, this song has been published with a set of lyrics known in Scotland and one of Irish origin, different airs were in use with this 18th cent. song".

I've always been puzzled by the line "He/she lives in the Curragh of Kildare".

(Dictionary definition: currach, Scot, Irish a coracle. Also curragh)

Why live in a boat?

More likely it refers to the racecourse of that name, but why live there??

How would an inland racecourse get a name like that???

Does "curragh" mean something else in this case, if so what????

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 02:29 PM

To Rich and Alan, here is a quote from a website called "The Curragh of Kildare".
-----
The Curragh of Kildare

Dr. A.P. Smyth wrote about Celtic Ireland "The ancient Irish knew good land as well s any modern farmer, and the Curragh of Kildare and the Plains of Meath formed the heartland of Irish civilisation".

The Curragh is situated in the heart of Kildare and is a Plain of five thousand acres. The plain is elliptical, twenty-two square miles in area and is a sheep common. The Curragh has a variety of amenities for the tourist, picnic areas, sporting amenities, a number of pitch an putt courses and two 18 hole golf courses, the country's premier flat racing track, which hosts the ever popular Budwiser Irish Derby, there is also lots of easy walking.

On the Curragh there is a population of thirteen hundred horses, this area is the home of Irish breeding and training. The National stud is located on the edge of Kildare town beside the famous Japanese Gardens both are open to the public and are well worth a visit.

Pollardstown Fen:

At the border of the Curragh on the Newbridge side of the Curragh is the Curragh racecourse at the back of the racecourse and off the plains is Pollardstown Fen. Pollardstown Fen is the largest fen in Ireland.. The fen which is a tract of Marshy land, this area is of particular interest to botanists and ecologists because of the numerous bird species that nest and visit the here also many rare plants and fen that grow here. A "Hide" has been built in the fen for those interested in viewing the wild life. There is 36 known springs serving the area, including Father Moore's Well and "Seven Springs" many come from deep beneath the Curragh plains sandy soils.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 02:32 PM

Here is a link to the page I quoted.click here


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Subject: Tune Add: THE WINTER IT IS PAST
From:
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 05:25 PM

There's little difference between the earliest Scots and Irish copies of the tune (1st two below). G. Petrie in 'The Ancient Music of Ireland' said that he had noted the tune from a Betty Skillin (about 1805), but P. W. Joyce in 'Old Irish Folk Music and Songs', #427, said that Petrie's tune is one he (Joyce) had noted in 1852, and had sent to Petrie. It doesn't appear that Joyce was correct in this. The copy in Stanford-Petrie, #439, has no note as to its source, is in 2/4 rather than common time, and lacks the repeat for the chorus (given in full by Joyce, 1908, and Petrie, 1855). Both Petrie copies (with minor differences in timing between them) are in F mixolydian, and Joyce's is C lydian.

More variant is the copy of the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #200, which is rather poorly engraved so I don't guarantee the accuracy of the ABC below. I suspect that this version is what was called the 'different' Scots tune.

There are two broadside ballad versions of the text in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads', I, #54, "The Irish Lovers" and #66, "The Lamenting Maid". "The Love-Sick Maid" version in 'Roxburghe Ballads', VI, p. 240, is from a garland of 1765.

The 1st verse is also found in the Scots song "Mally Stuart", given from a broadside copy by D. Laing in 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #497. A traditional version of this is in 'The Greig-Duncan Folks Song Collection', I, #97.

X:1
T:THE WINTER IT IS PAST
S:Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk 10, c 1759-60
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:G
G/A/|BABd|G2gf|dBAB|G2AB|cdef|{e/f/}g2 f3/2e/|d3::\
c/B/|cdef|{e/f/}g2fe|dBAG|A2GA|B2Be|dcBA|G3:|]

X:2
T:The Winter it is past, or Curragh of Kildare
S:Petrie's 'Ancient Music of Ireland', 1855
Q:120
L:1/8
M:4/4
K:Fmixolydian
F|FD FGB2e3/2d/|cB G3/2F/F2AB|c2def2ed|(c4c2)cd|ec de f2 ed|\
cB GFF2FG|B2ed cB G3/2F/|(F4F2)cd|ec def2ed|cB GFF2FG|\
B2ed cB G3/2F/|(F4F3)|]

X:3
T:The Winter it is Past
S:The Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:C
F3/2G/|A3/2 G/ A c|F2f d |c A G F|G2 G A| C D E|\
(fe) (d^c)|d4{BAG}|Fe c3/2B/|A c d e|f3 e/d/|c A G F|\
G2 F3/2G/|A2 A3/2 d/|(cB A G|F4{DCD}|C2|]


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 10:36 PM

thanks, Bruce


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 01:50 AM

G'day,
Thanks Alice & Bruce (wearing shades).

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 09:45 AM

Incidentally, a Curragh is an artificial island.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Penny S
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 07:35 PM

Like a crannog?


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 08:49 AM

Oh yes.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Penny S
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 01:23 PM

Assistant small scale crannog constructor, I am.

Penny


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Subject: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V
Date: 02 May 00 - 11:31 AM

Does anyone have any information on "The Curragh of Kildare?" I have only heard it recorded by Cliff Haslam (beautiful! Version is in the DT), but recall hearing a poem with very similar words at a Burns Supper. Thanks. Margaret


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:24 PM

There are 2 old threads on this. Do a forum search on 'Curagh'


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:25 PM

Sorry, should be 'Curragh'.


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 02 May 00 - 05:21 PM

What you heard at a Burns supper was Robert Burns re-working of the song. I believe he titled it the "Winter it is Past." That version was recorded by Jean Redpath on Vol. 2 of her series of Burns arrangements with composer Serge Hovey (I think) that was on Philo. Archie Fisher recorded a version with Garnet Rogers on the one album they did together a few years back. It has a nice tune that way. Though I like the other version as well. Bert Jansch did one on "A Rare Conundrum." Hope this helps. Phil


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 02 May 00 - 06:01 PM

Burns' title, "The Winter It Is Past" (Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788) is that of the tune, which is in Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk. 10 (c 1759).


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V
Date: 02 May 00 - 06:59 PM

Thank you very much, everyone! I had searched the forum for "Curragh of Kildare" and came up empty. Per advice from Guest, I searched using just "Curragh" and found the previous (informative) threads. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for some of the other recordings you mentioned, Phil. Margaret


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Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 02 May 00 - 11:43 PM

Margaret, type in the word Kildare in the filter, set it for three years, and click Refresh. You will get several threads.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:31 AM

Curragh is different to currach, it originally means 'place of the running horse'


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:39 AM

I believe Christie Moore took the version from Johnson's Musical Museum, believing it was written by Burns, and added the Irish chorus.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:51 AM

The Curragh is also home to the Curragh Camp, the chief base of the Irish Army. It's been an army camp since well before Irish independence and was the site of the Curragh mutiny, when officers in the British army based in Ireland threatened to resign their commissions rather than enforce the Home Rule Bill then before the British parliament. This is an almost-forgotten episode in British military history - the closest thing in modern British history to a military coup. The mutiny was a huge boost to Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force and a spur to the formation of the Irish Volunteers and James Connoly's Irish Citizen Army.

My reading of the song has always been that it refers to the army camp rather than anything to do with racehorses - or sheep.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM

If you go down to the Curragh Camp,
Call in at number nine,
You'll see three squaddies standing there,
Ah the good looking one is mine,
He was a quaire one fol the dig a di do,
He was a quaire one and I'll tell you.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: RTim
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 08:09 AM

Here is another version, which Frank Purslow published in his Foggy Dew book of songs from Hampshire & Dorset in 1974 (Page 96)

Tim Radford

THE WINTERS GONE & PAST
(Sources in Dorset - Jo. Vincent - Wareham
& Mr. Russell - Upway, plus bits from Broadsides)

The winter's gone and past,
and the summer's come at last,
And the small birds are on every tree,
And many a heart is glad, but my poor heart is sad,
Since my true love has been absent from me.

I should not think it strange,
the wide world for to range
In hoping for to find my heartÕs delight
But now in CupidÕs chains IÕm obliged to remain
And in sorrow I must spend my whole life.

I will dress myself in black,
With a fringe all around my neck,
Gold rings all on my fingers I will wear,
Then straightway IÕll repair to the county of Kildare,
And some tidings I may hear of my dear.

My love is like the sun in the pleasant month of June
That do always prove constant and true
But hers is like the moon that do wender up & down
And in every month it is new.


[Here's my transcription from Purslow's Foggy Dew book, page 96 - Joe Offer]

THE WINTER'S GONE AND PAST
(Sources in Dorset - Jo. Vincent - Wareham
& Mr. Russell - Upway, plus bits from Broadsides)

The winter's gone and past,
Pleasant summer's come at last,
And the small birds sing on ev-er-y green tree,
There is many a heart is glad, Oh! but my poor heart is sad,
Since my true love has gone absent from me.

I should not think it strange,
The wide world for to range,
In hoping for to find my heart's delight;
But now in Cupid's chains I'm obliged for to remain
And in sorrow I must spend my whole life.

I will dress myself in black,
With a fringe all round my neck,
Gold rings all on my fingers I will wear,
Then straightway I'll repair to the county of Kildare,
And some tidings I may hear of my dear.

My love is like the sun in the pleasant month of June,
That do always prove constant and true;
But his is like the moon that do wender up and down,
And in every month it is new.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Albert O'Einstein
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:24 AM

Why is it that The Scotch & English always try to claim ownership of Irish music and Song? The only reason so much of this stuff exists in Scotland is because it was BROUGHT there by the constant migration of Celtic peoples to Scotland from the land of Saints & Scholars over the centuries.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:35 AM

Christie Moore's the one who claims it as a Scottish song.

At any rate the traffic was two way, hence the naming of a type of tune as "highland" in Donegal. There's lots of Irish music that is genuinely Irish, lots of Scots music that originated in Ireland, England or even Italy, the same with English music, and one of the fascinations of traditional arts is trying to follow how various strands have moved between countries and even continents.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:46 AM

There were snakes and there was hair
In the Curry of Kildare


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Newport Boy
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:50 AM

Not after St Patrick, Leadfingers. He took the snakes out of the curry for evermore.

Phil


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM

Alberto,
Perhaps you'd like to name one Irish song that the English or Scotch have claimed as theirs.

The song under discussion here is clearly set in Ireland and in the earliest extant version, as mentioned by Bruce above, the lover is most definitely a jockey, nothing to do with soldiers. However it was widely printed in England and as already been said the version being currently sung is based on a version printed in Scotland.

There are many songs common to England, Ireland and Scotland. In most cases it is impossible to determine in which of the countries a song originated. As someone has already mentioned these sort of songs passed freely back and forth between the countries with a common language and that includes North America. Many of the songs nowadays taken to be Irish are in fact by American authors writing FOR the Irish in America.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM

For example , Forty Shades of Green - A traditional Irish song written by Johnny Cash


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Subject: ADD: The Winter It Is Past (Robert Burns)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM

Well I'm very surprised that no-one has mentioned Robert Burns in all this! I learned the McPaekae's version of "The Curragh of Kildare" about 45 years ago - then came to scotland 23 years ago, to find them singing this: Here is Burns' version:

Burns Original

THE WINTER IT IS PAST
(Robert Burns)

1.
The winter it is past, and the simmer comes at last,
And the small birds sing on ev'ry tree:
The hearts of these are glad, but mine is very sad,
For my love is parted from me.
2.
The rose upon the brier by the waters running clear
May have charms for the linnet or the bee:
Their little loves are blest, and their little hearts at rest,
But my lover is parted from me
3.
My love is like the sun in the firmament does run -
Forever is constant and true;
But his is like the moon, that wanders up and down,
And every month it is new.
4.
All you that are in love, and cannot it remove,
I pity the pains you endure,
For experience makes me know that your hearts are
full of woe,
A woe that no mortal can cure.


More than passing resemblance, methinks, at least in some of the verses!So which came first??


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM

"Well I'm very surprised that no-one has mentioned Robert Burns in all this!"

I did. And so did Christie Moore in the notes in his song book.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:10 AM

Burns did not write The Winter it is Past according to William Stenhouse who wrote the Illustrations of the Lyric Poetry and Music of Scotland which prefaced the 1853 edition of Johnson's Scots Musical Museum. Stenhouse says "The Editor has not yet been so fortunate as to discover who was the author of this plaintive pastoral song; but there are several variations between the copy inserted in the Museum and the following stall edition of the ballad."

A 'stall' edition is a sheet sold at fairs etcetera and Stenhouse's version show variations:

Verse one: ...the little birds now sing on ev'ry tree...

Verse three: ....My love is like the sun that unwearied doth run, Through the firmament, ay constant and true ... And is ev'ry month changing anew.

Verse four: ....How I pity the pains that you endure.

In addition Stenhouse writes "The plaintive little air to which this song is adapted, is inserted under the same title in Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion, book 7th."


James C Dick, the noted authority on Burns say: " ...Cromek printed the first two stanzas in the Reliques, 1808. Burns wrote only the second stanza and corrected the first: the rest were printed before his time as a stall-ballad. The song of seven stanzas is in the Herd MS. Dr Petrie has copied it into the Ancient Music of Ireland...... The original song (imperfectly authenticated) belongs to the middle of the eighteenth century, and was written by a highwayman called Johnson who was hung in 1750 for robberies committed in the Currach of Kildare."

I have various other books, 18th and 19th century, where the author is stated as unknown.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM

These are the verses in Cromek's Reliques of Robert Burns, page 446 and titled FRAGMENT (see my post above)


The winter it is past, and the simmer comes at last,
And the small birds sing on every tree;
Now every thing is glad whie I am very sad,
Since my true love is parted from me.

The rose upon the brier by the waters running clear
May have charms for the linnet or the bee:
Their little loves are blest, and their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted from me.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:45 AM

Curragh actually means "a low lying plain" or "a marsh".


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:01 PM

I am sure I have read somewhere, I think perhaps in the museum at alloway, that burns said he learned this song from his kitchen maid


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM

Sorry Dave, missed your mention of Burns, even tho' I did read the other posts before submitting mine. Apologies.
Thanks for the info Jim: I hope to visit some of the "Burns Trail" sites in Ayrshire on my way to Girvan Festival this weekend.
Steve G: Scotch is whisky, not people!


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: mg
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:14 PM

Where is the verse about the green velvet? Oh here it is.

A livery I will wear and I'll tie back my hair
and in velvet of green I will appear
And straight I will repair to the Curragh of Kildaire
ANd it's there I'll find tidings of my ?? I always heard Will. mg


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:38 PM

Tattie Bogle - as to 'Scotch' being whisky, not people: that, I would suggest, is merely a late-Victorian genteelism, probably of temperance origin. Any of the great Scotch-Scots-Scottish writers prior to that [check out Burns, Scott, Stevenson et al] would quite uninhibitedly have indifferently used 'Scots', 'Scottish'', or 'Scotch' as their chosen adjective for the people, the language, or whatever. I would adumbrate Stevenson's description of Lord Justice Braxfield, in his essay on Raeburn's Portraits in 'Virginibus Puerisque' [Braxfield being generally regarded as the origin of RLS's 'Weir Of Hermiston'], as "the last judge on the Scotch bench to employ the pure Scotch idiom".

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM

Tattie Bogle & all others interested ~~ please note that I have started a new thread BS on this vexed question as to whether 'Scotch' can properly be used for anything other than the usquebaugh, which has long been a bête-noire of mine. Please contribute if you have any feelings on the matter either way.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:55 AM

MtheGM this topic has been hammered to death over the years. The answer is very simple: Scot is a noun, Scotch can be a noun or an adjective. Scotch was used extensively in the 19th century as an adjective to describe people but fell out of favour due to a narrow minded attitude that it compared people to whisky.


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Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Newport Boy
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:06 AM

That's scotched that discussion, Jim!

Phil


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