Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 04:32 PM

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/itma.dl.printmaterial/joyce_microsite/pdfs/oldirishpart2.pdf

if that link doesn't work for you try https://www.itma.ie/joyce/book/old-irish-folk-music-and-songs-part-2 and click on "view pdf"

The Winter it is Past is song #427 in "Old Irish Folk Music and Songs: The Joyce Collection Part II" (published 1909)
It was also published in Dr. George Petrie's "Ancient Music of Ireland".
Patrick Weston Joyce writes that he collected this version of The Curragh of Kildare from Kate Cudmore of Co. Limerick circa 1852.

Christy Moore has written that he found the song in the Joyce collection and that, as far as he recalls, he passed it on to Mick Maloney who was a member of The Johnstons group. So it looks like Joe Offer is probably right in surmising that Christy Moore - or one of "The Johnstons" - is responsible for adding a chorus to the song. Incidently, the next song, #428, in the Joyce Collection is "Arthur McBride".

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 04:36 PM

The song made its way to Newfoundland, too.

https://www.springthyme.co.uk/ah06/ah06_13.htm

I hope that doesn't duplicate anyone's post.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 04:38 PM

Although I don't know who the Fureys got the song from, but the Johnstons recorded it in 1967. (Steve Gardham says the Fureys were performing it by 1968). It would be nice, though, to find out that there was some living link besides the song as collected in the mid 19th century being revived from a book.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 04:57 PM

Not sure what you mean by 'living link', Felipa, but there are plenty of versions from English and Scottish oral tradition but not since the early 20th century as far as I can see. I don't know of anyone who has recorded a version from oral tradition after WWII. Having been published in Burns books, Johnson's Musical Museum and Christie it's not surprising fragmentary versions turn up in Scotland.

Thanks for the links to Joyce's second volume, although if the same version is in Petrie I've got it.

Just spotted a version from a 1779 American manuscript, obviously from oral tradition. It's online in the Fanning Manuscript, American vernacular Music website.

The Fureys were big mates with the Moores when they weren't beating the living daylights out of each other.

Subject: ADD Version:The Curragh of Kildare (Johnstons)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM

CURRAGH OF KILDARE
(Traditional, from the Johnstons)

The winter it is past
And the summer's come at last
And the birds they are singing in the trees
Their little hearts are glad
But mine is very sad
For my true love is far away from me

CHORUS:
And straight I will repair
To the Curragh of Kildare
For it's there I'll find tidings of my dear

A livery I'll wear
And I'll comb back my hair
And in velvet so green I will appear
And straight I will repair
To the Curragh of Kildare
For it's there I'll find tidings of my dear

All you that are in love
And cannot it remove
I pity the pains that you endure
For experience lets me know
That your hearts are full of woe
A woe that no mortal can cure


Transcribed from this recording by The Johnstons (date unknown): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTphmT2w87E

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 05:19 PM

Felipa, the above post is now complete. It's a copy of the "incorrect" post above that you complained about. I'll now change that offending post into a corrected transcription of the Christy Moore recording. The recordings by Christy Moore and the Johnstons are certainly not original, but they are the most popular recent performances - and I almost always prefer songs with choruses because I love to sing with other people.
When a post of lyrics is complete to my satisfaction, I formalize the format and add particular markings to identify it as checked. If it's a post from me and the title is not in big, bold letters, it's not finished yet or it's a part of an ongoing process of discovery.
I suppose it's an unfair advantage that I can post something and then edit it, but I try to make good and honest use of that privilege. If you make a mistake, it's best to post the message a second time with corrections, far easier than asking me to correct one or another word. Just mark the second one so we'll know it's the corrected version, and we'll delete the previous message.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:04 PM

I have it on a compilation LP called "Irish Folk hits" on the Marble Arch label, MAL 735, produced in 1967.
The Curragh of Kildare is indeed The Johnstons' recording and is listed Trad. arr Moloney and Johnston. This accords with Felipa's post above apart from the spelling of Moloney (Maloney)and gives you a date.
Unfortunately not much else in the way of sleeve notes, as was the fashion in those days!

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 08:46 PM

Petrie, pp.168-70 <----- they are book pages

https://archive.org/details/nd7365927/page/n199/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/nd7365927/page/n199/mode/2up

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 12:44 PM

Here are words from the site robertburns.org which don't make reference to a curragh.

The winter it is past, and the summer comes at last,
And the small birds are singing in the trees
Now everything is glad, oh but I am very sad,
For my true love is parted from me.

The rose upon the briar by the water running clear
May have charms for the linnet and the bee
Their little loves are blest, ah their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted from me

And all you who are in love, and cannot it remove,
I pity all the pains that you endure,
For experience lets me know that your hearts are full of woe,
It's a woe that no mortal can cure.

My love is like the sun and the firmament does run
Forever is constant and true
But his is like the moon, it wanders up and doon,
And is every month changing anew.

The winter it is past, and the summer comes at last,
And the small birds are singing in the trees
Their little loves are blest, ah their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted away from me

My true love is far away from me.
Source: Musixmatch

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 06:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shvzGmMTVfo

Oysterband - "Curragh of Kildare"

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:17 AM

Only an opinion, but it appears that Rabbie has kept in the flowery lyrical bits and removed the settings and personal info.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 10:50 AM

I agree, Steve. I wonder whether "the Curragh of Kildare", which I thought was a kind of boat, refers to a pub. Or perhaps its a ferry, likely to be a source of news and gossip in a rural area. In either case, it adds interest and poignance to the song.

Guest #, thanks for the link, where one can hear the melody.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 11:29 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Johnstons

That Wikipedia article gives a date of 1968 for the recording: this regarding the post at 01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 12:11 PM

The Curragh of Kildare is a place. Try imagining a curragh (small round boat meant for very calm waters, else it would swamp) making any sense in the lyrics and it doesn't work. If there's any sense to be made from it all, one must consider that the 'curragh' is a bowl-shaped depression in the earth somewhere out there is the isles. I agree with leeneia's implication: it's from two separate songs or poems, and lyrics that have TWIIP using the CoK refrain have conflated them. Anyway, that's my view fwiw.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 12:47 PM

The Curragh is a horse race on the Curragh and the hero is a jockey, riding for The Plate.

Please read the previous posts before conjecturing, particularly Georgiansilver's post on the 1st at 8.06 AM. it's not an April Fool gag!

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 01:19 PM

Great. Would you please post the lyrics?

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 03:33 PM

Already posted. 1st April, 9.40 AM.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 12:36 AM

"Please read the previous posts..."

Gee, how could I have failed to read 60 posts going back 21 years?

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 09:43 AM

All the info you needed was posted 9 days prior to your conjecture.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa
Date: 21 Jan 24 - 04:10 PM

according to https://mainlynorfolk.info/folk/songs/thewinteritispast.html Burns based The Winter it is Past on a song called The Lovesick Maid. In that song the absent lover is a highwayman, an element which Burns left out. In that account of origins, the Curragh of Kildare would have derived from the Burns song which derived from a different traditional song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 24 - 05:37 PM

'The Love-sick Maid text is given above and indeed predates Burns. There is no indication that he was a highwayman, and the description given in it implies that he was a jockey. You'd need to compare all of the versions to see which derive from the Burns adaptation. It's likely Scottish versions derive from Burns. As in many ballads, particularly Irish, the song is about the difference in the status of the jockey and the rich girl. It doesn't make it clear but perhaps the jockey is a Catholic and she is Protestant. John Moulden might have a better idea.